Genetic phobias? Late night thoughts.

[Inexorable Username]

I shouldn't be thinking about this because I should be focusing on mundane stuff. But sometimes I think I'm not in control of my own brain. Scary thought.

Anyways.

I've been thinking about rape fantasies, and murder fantasies, and other dark fantasies that humans entertain. We don't really want to experience these things or their consequences, but we still wonder about them. Some of the fantasies are more visual, others, more psychological or analytical.

But fantasies and imaginative exercises are excellent tools for considering the very worst that can happen, and how we would handle those situations. I've talked to people for instance who have imagined what they would do/how they would feel if they were accused of committing murder, or what they would do/how they would feel if their significant other burned to death. We have these dark thoughts, from what I can tell, because they speak to deep, deep fears that we can't quite understand, but must process, should these events occur in our lives. It's almost like a way of programming the brain of how to handle errors of processing. Of course, when they're of a sexual nature, they can also cause arousal and sexual confusion in a person - in particular, if someone has been abused as a child. I don't think that's genuine arousal - more of a defensive biological reaction - but maybe that's a thought for another time. I bring it up because I mentioned it in one of my recent replies. There's this idea out there that women fantasize about rape, and I've found that to be true, but at the same time, no woman (none that I've found, at least), would ever, ever want to be raped - it's one of the worst, most humiliating acts a person can suffer through. Men more often, from my own experiences, seem to fantasize about murder. But the men I've talked to on the subject also voice that they would never want to be put in that situation, and that their only objective would be to try to figure out how to escape it safely.

At any rate...could it be that these fears we have are biologically born into us? Murdering, and being murdered, are things that civilized societies rarely have to worry about, but older societies certainly did. Rape as well, I think, is probably less common (although it's still quite a bit more common than most people think, from what I can tell).

Could it be that fearing these things has been genetically programmed into us? And therefore, that imagining these fears, and mentally processing them, as well as finding appropriate feelings to feel in regards to them, is a function of our body trying to establish brain patterns that could be useful should the worst come to the worst?

What I've learned from people who fantasize about the worst case scenarios, is that they usually win in the end. At least, in a sense. It seems that people imagine ways in which they could succeed in said scenario, and sustain the least amount of damage possible. Deep instincts and logical thought help us to analyze which courses of action lead to the end result we think. Then, by repeatedly processing that information, and drawing that conclusion, we can train ourselves to think and react in such a way that would make us more successful, if we were to be thrown into such a circumstance.

My belief is that api-genetics have programmed fears into us that were among the most relevant, and most destructive potentials in our history. A particularly superstitious or spiritual person might even say that these thoughts process experiences from past lives we have lived...

Just thoughts. I need to go do things now. Seems to me I had stuff on a piece of paper that was supposed to dictate how my evening would unfold. I must bow to the paper. Goodbye, all.

 

[Cognisant]

I've never had any concern about being raped nor had any fantasies about being raped either so perhaps the two are related. STDs and physical abuse aside being raped by a woman is a fairly non-threatening proposition, even if she's absolutely hideous you just have a shower and move on with your life. Having a woman steal your sperm to get herself pregnant is concerning but mainly from a financial perspective and worrying about the welfare of the child.

Physical abuse is very much its own thing, having been the victim of an abusive stepfather and being beaten up at school I would say I can relate to physical abuse itself and the path to recovery but I wouldn't assume being a woman raped by a man would be anything like that. When I was being beaten I never really had the fear of lasting consequences, indeed I don't remember being afraid in the way that we normally experience it, instead it's more dissociative like you know something bad is happening and you don't want it to happen but so long as your attacker isn't trying to kill you, you know the best course of action is to just wait it out. I speculate the fear of being impregnated by your attacker would make being raped indescribably worse than being beaten. Even as a man the possibility of being raped by another man seems a lot more distressing than simply being beaten up despite the fact that the likelihood of incurring serious injuries would be far lower.

As for fantasies of being the rapist well in that there's two very different versions of rape and the one that's fantasized about is the one that's less congruent with reality. For example there's a rather infamous game out there called Tentacle Locker in which you apparently play as a tentacle monster in an all girls school that goes around from locker to locker abducting and raping the girls. Conceptually this is horrific but the way it's depicted is very lighthearted, apart from some initial trepidation to being captured the girls show no signs of distress or that they've been harmed either physically or mentally by the experience. That is of course completely unrealistic which is by design, the power fantasy of just being able to abduct any girl you fancy and have your way with her is appealing, the realistic consequences of doing so are not.

I myself have had dreams in which some female assassin attacks me and disarm her and proceed to have my way with her in a very domineering fashion but not with the intent of causing actual harm, it's not consensual because she's trying to kill me but if she's not into it neither am I.

Then in real life there's being rough in the bedroom, not to the point of actually trying to hurt the other person just being not-gentle, never been with a girl that didn't like being squeezed a little.

 

[peoplesuck]

Ive never been phobic of being raped or killed. Ive never had any fantasy about rape, because for me, its grossly intimate.
I would regularly go 20 or 30 miles out into the country, at 3am, biking through the woods. I never really feared being killed.
It sounds horrendous, but in high school, fantasizing about killing certain people, allowed me to keep from actually hurting them. ( bad people, not just random people)
I never appeared normal, and people knew I wasn't the person to pick a fight with.
I think I had a dream where someone tried to rape me, if I remember correctly, that was the dream where I ripped a person's eyes out.

I think for a brief period I was scared of being killed, because a neighbor kid said he would kill me, I was like 7 and he was in his teens. He was going to kill me because I rode my bicycle down his street...
You would think that would be something I would remember really well, but I had totally forgotten until the other day, I was trying to remember if I had ever been physically threatened.
OOF one time this grown man at the pool tried to fkn drown me...
and my friend's dad was a pedophile, he told my mom I had a nice body...
oh right the thread...
I would say women fear these things because they aren't as dominant. If someone looks at me like i'm a prey, I look back at them with the same look.
Its a very male thing, to respond to threats with interest.
Ive always been odd about conflict, I remember my mom's boyfriend threatening to kill my dog bc I moved his computer screen (yeah not a joke). So I sat outside with a kitchen knife waiting for him to touch my dog. I was maybe 15 at that time. He no longer comes over, in fear I would kill him. Ive never verbally threatened him though.
I never considered myself very masculine, but when it comes to people threatening violence, it doesn't scare me. I always avoid these situations, so far nobody has kept me from escaping. So far the people who have instigated, have been loud pussies that fear death and pain, perhaps thats why people don't bother me, because I dont bark. Im like that sketchy ass dog that just lowers its ears. Nobody fucks with that dog.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@_@ Holy crap Peoples. What kind of life have you lived?

@Cognisant - I think that the fear of being raped by another man is similar to the fear women have about rape, but there’s a kind of key difference.
If another man is raping you, you know what he wants to get out of it and you know you’ll survive. (Assuming you’re both adult men and this is some place like prison)

Women have to fear the intent of the rapist. Whether he’s going to brutalize her. Cut her up just to see her bleed. Kill her afterwards. Kill her during. The men who want women to suffer are very sick in the head. They often think of women like cats and they fantasize about mutilating them and torturing them. I once heard the account of a person who fantasized about rape who said they would (they meant this in a real-world context), trick a woman onto their boat, rape her, and then weight her down and throw her overboard and go home. It was a suggestion as to how you could rape a woman and get away with it.

So aside from the risk of pregnancy, there’s the risk of mutilation, torture, and murder.

There’s also the risk of having multiple attackers, and there’s more of a risk of pain and physical, internal (potentially permanent) damage to your body/sex organs because women are anatomically different then men, of course. So there’s risks associated with that as well.

So the rape of a man and the rape of a woman - they’re not really the same, and I think that the rape of women is much more common and much more likely to happen at random. It could happen when you’re walking to your car, for instance. An adult man jumping out of the bushes to rape a guy who is walking to his car - fairly unlikely.

I think this also kind of gets at something that is a big difference between men and women when it comes to the fear of threats of violence. If a man beats up a man, generally both men survive unmaimed. If a man beats up a women, there’s a good chance that he’s not a mentally stable person and those men like to do really weird, horrible things to women. Like cut up their faces.

Women have to fear mutilation much more than men do, and most women have no training or experience in which to fall back on that allows them to say “I can handle myself. I can be scarier than you are.”

In fact, most women are generally used to being called things like “cute” and “sweet” and “small”. When everyone in your life treats you like a rabbit, you start quacking like a rabbit. (Sorry, just my dumb little joke)

At any rate, I’m lucky that my parents didn’t overgenderize when I was a kid. I was allowed to be myself and encouraged to be brave, moral, outspoken, analytical, etc. I had a good, strong role model of a mom. Also, I had to work and stuff, and my parents didn’t spoil me. My family is wealthy but I didn’t know it until after I graduated high school. We didn’t get lots of toys and things, and if we did, it was a special occasion. I remember once that I had an accident and it really hurt and I was crying so badly, and then mom pulled out a really exciting toy she’d stashed and had saved up for such a moment as that. I totally forgot I was in pain. Lol.
Smart mom.

But a lot of girls I’ve known were raised to be pretty pink princesses and I can’t imagine what their lives must be like because I, myself, have felt intimidated and threatened by men, and I at least have a bit of karate under my belt. As well as a very stubborn, aggressive, “I will take you down with me” idea about the whole situation, which I think, potentially, men can read in my face.

My strategy would be to inflict as much pain and damage to the other person as possible before I die. I’d go for the eyes. Definitely would use my teeth Hannibal letter style.

But the point is - I’ve had to think about this possibility, because it’s a relevant danger in my life. Ever since I hit puberty, I’ve come across women warning me that I could get raped. Someone told my sister that she deserved to get raped because she was wearing a spaghetti strap top.

It reminds me of a Jubilee episode “Can A and B agree?” Or whatever. Where they featured men vs women. One of the women said “most guys will never understand how scary just they can be”
As in - just being a male.

It was pretty sad but true. It’s not something I would ever say to a guy, because I think that’s really hurtful. But - just for instance - I was walking alone at night one time, and a guy was walking behind me. I had a moment where I had to think of whether or not I was being “followed”. It made me feel slightly panicked. I was running through scenarios in my head about what I would do if I was attacked by the person. I was afraid to turn around and look at him and afraid to walk any differently because if something changed about the way I was doing things, maybe it would trigger an attack.

But he was just a normal guy walking down the street, and after that I felt really guilty for having those fears.

The reason I don’t like to tell guys things like that is because - like I said - it’s hurtful. I think there’s some dark realities women face that we just deal with, pretty much. You don’t share it. It’s...what’s the word? Tactless, to do so.

But I’m sure there’s been times you’ve been threatened by other men. Physically. Probably not a lot of times you’ve been threatened by other women. Of the men you’re threatened by, maybe 50% of them you feel like you could take. Of that sample size of men, those people are probably all motivated by wanting to “conquer you” in some sense. Brave (or arrogant) enough to think they can take you, and motivated by the desire to be better then you and prove it.

I think most women feel that they probably couldn’t take about 80% of the men they meet, at least. I’m not a weakling, and I feel that way. Add that to the fact that the men who threaten us have a rainbow of reasons for doing so and few of them are as comparatively harmless as just wanting to win.

But my post wasn’t necessarily supposed to be about rape, specifically. I feel a little weird talking about that here in this nice corner of the web. Not that I talk when I check out dark corners of the web XD...I just spectate because I like to understand where the worst of the worst is coming from. I think it’s an uncomfortable but necessary part of being informed about human nature.

Anyways - my point was that I think we may fantasize about fears our ancestors obsessed over. Women had to worry about being raped (and still do), and men had to worry about being murdered, or having to murder.

What I get from people is that women more often fantasize about rape and men more often fantasize about murder. By “more often” - I mean more than the other gender. I don’t mean that “all women fantasize about rape” - that’s utter nonsense put forth by men who want to believe they know more about the female sex than we know about ourselves. It’s a really obnoxious attitude, and they always draw the wrong conclusions from any half-baked observations they make. Men aren’t generally that great at empathizing with the woman experience, because they don’t think it’s valuable to do so.

Anyways...It’s not really something that gets under my skin. It used to bother me, but not anymore. Because the fact of the matter is that many women are perfectly capable of giving men the information they need to empathize, but they flatly refuse to do so. Or sometimes they edit. So when women say “Why don’t you just ask a women” (being sarcastic about it), one part of me feels validated in my belief that men should try harder to actually get real information from women’s themselves instead of basing their entire opinion off of what they think is objective, logical analysis, (but isnt, because it is lacking too much information to be so)....but on the other hand, I feel like I can easily answer that question. It’s because most women aren’t going to be willing to tell you, or to tell you the truth. It’s the same case with men. If a woman asks a man a question (in person), there’s a good chance he either won’t reveal the requested for information, or he’ll edit.

But men are a bit more accessible because they’re so prevelant online. Of course, there’s also female areas of the internet that men could go to in order to gather information, if they really wanted to know the truth. I don’t think most men are as motivated to know the truth as they think they are.

Anyways. I wonder if ancestral phobias play a role in the “dark fantasy” phenomenon. Perhaps these dark fantasies we experience hark back to a more ancient time when such fears were so prevalent, it became a survival mechanism for them to be imprinted in a person. Epi-genetics appear to potentially have an ability to encode instinctual memories. I’ve witnessed this myself.

 

[Inexorable Username]

By the way - I’m not trying to say that all, or most women worry about these things. I can only talk about my personal experiences and I’ve never asked women about whether they’ve felt threatened by men. That’s like...sort of a weird thing to ask a person. Somehow weirder than asking about fantasies, which particularly open people sometimes feel at liberty to discuss with a person they trust.

And I’m also not saying that I walk around all day feeling spooked about being in a world that’s half men. I don’t feel most men are a threat to me. I haven’t even felt threatened by most of my stalkers.

There are just certain circumstances that have, in the past, given me alarm bells or simply made me feel like I had to entertain the possibility of danger. Like wondering if I’m being followed, or being watched too intensely by someone when I’m alone. I’ve had one occaision where I looked at someone’s and thought to myself - that person is a killer. There’s no life in his eyes. And I ended up being right. He tried to kill someone in front of me.

So the only point I was trying to make was that these are the kinds of things that some women have to worry about. I don’t know how often women worry about it, or to what degree, or in which situations...I know that a lot of women have thought I was either brave or stupid, which suggests that their level of fear for the world is somewhat higher than my own. I generally feel like I can handle most situations and I think I have decent instincts.

I think it’s helpful for men, though, to try to empathize with this aspect of femininity, because it might make certain things make more sense. For instance, I think most women would be very unlikely to give out there number or personal information to a stranger that just pops out of the blue asking for it. Most women have a sense that information like that should be somewhat protected, because there’s weirdos out there - and by that, the term “weirdo” is more referencing at the possibility that a guy might some kind of serial killer rapist murderer.

 

[peoplesuck]

Jesus christ inex.
This reminds me of talking with a girl in my math class, I asked why she had mace on her keychain, she said it was because she was afraid of being raped, walking to her car.
That blew my mind, it was the exact moment I realized we live in completely different worlds. I go anywhere I want, whenever I want, meanwhile there are people afraid to walk across a parking lot.

 

[Black Rose]

I was almost attacked by 2 dogs one night. I do not go out at night anymore.

 

[Cognisant]

Men being sick in the head is in my opinion the result of two things, fundamentally there isn’t a species on Earth with males and no females however there are many asexual species, suffice to say the female is the core unit of any species, even in humans the ability for a given population to increase in size or at least maintain their numbers and the genetic viability of that population is predominantly determined by the number of genetically distinct females. The point I’m getting at is that males exist in the context of females, that being male only has meaning in the presence of women so it should come as no surprise that women have a profound effect on male psychology. Men have a psychological need for female affirmation and this is very much by design, men need women to pass on their genes thus the approval of women is the single greatest selective pressure in male evolution. Everything a man does is relative to either gaining approval or making himself more attractive, this is why almost every record holder and famous explorer is male, why science and engineering are predominately male pursuits, the male mind is obsessed with feats and achievements. Which isn’t to say women can’t be record holders, explorers, scientist, engineers, etc, just that they’re not going to risk their lives going for an altitude record in a garage made autogyro because they quite rightly recognize that such risk taking is insane.

So having established that men are motivated by female affirmation to an obsessive degree what happens when they can’t get it and they haven’t got some other outlet for their obsessiveness? Or worse what happens when a boy grows up being the victim of psychological abuse from a female caretaker? It can result in a “sour grapes” effect (after the Aesop of a fox who unable to reach some delicious grapes atop a thorny bush declares them sour out of spite) in which the man in question convinces himself that he doesn’t want a woman’s affirmation or that receiving such is a bad thing. This is not unlike a naughty child who starved of attention decides to act out regardless of the consequences because any attention, even negative attention is better than no attention at all.

The second factor is religion and I know I blame religion for everything but I can’t help doing so, because it’s true.

I once met a misogynistic individual (I won’t say who or where) who I guess interpreted my candid discussion of personal topics to mean I wouldn’t judge him harshly if he shared his decidedly not-politically-correct worldview with me and I took the opportunity to interview him because even if I didn’t agree with him I’m still curious about how such a mind works. Without going into scripture the gist of it was that he’s a “good Christian”, that women tempt men into immorality and conflict with each other, that women being promiscuous (read: being attractive) makes them especially immoral therefore they deserve to be punished, read into that what you will.

As perhaps a reaction to that my views (as detailed in the Matriarchy thread) are the exact opposite, I think religion has twisted the natural synergistic male/female dynamic in which men naturally defer to women for decision making because we like being told what to do (rather given opportunities to earn affirmation) and that women should be forthcoming with their affections which I believe would make both men and women a lot less neurotic.

 

[Black Rose]

I was afraid my house would burn down. I tried to fix the problems. Was taking everything apart. (everything in my house not the heater, I was fvking scared it would ignite, sounds and everything) Yelled at my therapist. Was in the mental hospital for over 30 days.

I had so many horrible thoughts. That was the reason it was 30 days.

 

[Inexorable Username]

I was afraid my house would burn down. I tried to fix the problems. Was taking everything apart. (everything in my house not the heater, I was fvking scared it would ignite, sounds and everything) Yelled at my therapist. Was in the mental hospital for over 30 days.

I had so many horrible thoughts. That was the reason it was 30 days.

When did that happen?

 

[Inexorable Username]

This reminds me of talking with a girl in my math class, I asked why she had mace on her keychain, she said it was because she was afraid of being raped, walking to her car.

Yup. >_>
I mean. I don’t carry mace. I generally carry a dog. But my grandma has given me mace twice I think - once for Christmas and a pretty pink one once for my birthday that was a keychain (they expire you know) and begged me to use it. CARRY IT! Not use it. lol. Sorry.
She’s like “Please, oh please Inex! Won’t you go out and mace some people for me? I’d do it myself but at this age...”

Anyways. She’s particularly paranoid. I’m not a very paranoid person. I’m a pretty brazen person. Was like that ever since I was a kid. So I don’t generally carry mace or if I do it gets lost at the bottom of my bag among stuff like lose dimes and bobby pins.

My dog is much more accurate than mace anyways. I don’t necessarily trust myself to use mace properly but I trust myself fully when it comes to using my dog. And the great part is, she’s not going to turn around and bite me in the face. Lol.

There’s been a couple of hairy situations that my dog has helped me out with. Once, my car was almost dead empty on a long car trip and I ran into the only gas station I thought was around for miles. It was closed and abandoned. But it had a nice grassy field so I thought it might be a good place for Kia to stretch her legs. I got out of the car and looked around a bit, and I was just about to let Kia out when a truck pulled up to the broken down gas pump and these two guys got out and started walking towards me.

So I opened the door and Kia jumped out and when prancing around with her little happy dog dance.

They might have just been asking for directions and...I suppose they could have been afraid of dogs? (Although they were driving a redneck truck and looked like hillbillies)

But they made an immediate about face, got back in their truck, and drove off. I’ll never know what they wanted. But being caught at an abandoned gas station where there’s nothing but countryside for miles around is not a safe place for a lone woman. Some people will wait for you, knowing there’s a sign on the highway saying there’s gas here - knowing there’s no one around.

My dog is the best protection I have. Dad tried to give me a hard time about spending my savings on a dog when I got into college, because she’s a purebred dog of a certain breed so she cost $1,400. But mom was happy about it, because she knew that Kia was going to be the thing to guard my body while I went out into the world and did my adventure thing. XD

And she was totally right. There was a bad neighborhood I used to park in. I’d take Kia. She’s lay down in the back, and if people approached the car, she would stand up and do the “bark your face off” thing. She’s a 65 lbs dog that looks like a beagle on steroids.

People are way more afraid of my sweet, dainty, feminine little Kia-dog then they are of me armed with mace that may or may not work. (I think when they go dead they just squirt...because I tested mine on the pavement once and that’s what it did. Real helpful I’fe i’m going to be murdered.)

That blew my mind, it was the exact moment I realized we live in completely different worlds. I go anywhere I want, whenever I want, meanwhile there are people afraid to walk across a parking lot.

It blows a lot of guys minds. A lot of guys also will try to tell you that you’re overreacting, which is really unhelpful, because women these days are very sensitive to being made fun of for being overly emotional, and a lot of young girls can be tough to convince when it comes to the potential dangers out there. I was one of them. If you grow up in a nice place, you learn in school and from your family and friends not to be afraid of men, that criminals are rare, and that it’s very unlikely that someone would hurt you or rape you, or even intentionally make you feel unsafe.

But that small town girl mindset is extremely naive and dangerous, and it can be the very reason a woman is raped. For one thing, they find that confidence and trust in a woman to be arrogance in certain ghettos. I think, especially in particularly bad east coast black ghettos where the panthers are strong.
A coddled white woman believes it’s racist to act timid or afraid around black people, but if you go to a place where black people have been screwed over six different ways to Sunday by the white man, and live in some of the worst poverty-stricken regions of America, and you, an over-priviledged white bitch, walk in there like you own the place - well it’s a burn to a man’s ego. And a lot of those men grew up learning that rape and brutality are just ways of life, and that the strong succeed.

I almost ran into trouble like that once when I was 15. I had no clue. Totally oblivious. I went to an anime convention with friends and like the idiot I am, I got a little antsy at 9 o’clock at night and I needed to go for a walk and explore. I like exploring new places. I’m a danger to myself (and Kia is subjectively a danger to others!)
Anyways. I got lost in the city in search of tea. No joke. Took a wrong turn and ended up in a neighborhood where the pussycat club was next to a lingerie shop.

And I made some guy mad because he was hanging out on the corner leering at me and saying “Hey” in a very weird way that made me uncomfortable. So I did what I learned to do in cities, and just ignored him. He had some buddies around him that made weird man sounds too about my body. I don’t know how to express that in writing. Lol. They are like...moaning grunt things. Anyways.

He followed me into a CVS and was like “Hey, hey, I’m talking to you. Can’t you hear me.”
And I kept ignoring him but I was getting freaked out about it because he was starting to get really angry. He started to raise his voice saying “Don’t just ignore me”, and I turned around and left the shop and he tried to follow me out but, luckily, his friends calmed him down and told him to stop. I think they realized they were scaring me, and it probably helped that I had my little Japanese cat eat clips clipped into my hair like a 15-year-old loser XD

Anyways. Due to the cat ears, some cute guy from the convention spotted me soon after that and asked me very nicely if I was lost, and escorted me back to my hotel room like a gentlemen. <3

Women these days get offended when guys do things like that because they’re like “Why, do you think I can’t take care of myself?!”

Chivalry isn’t like that at all. It’s showing respect and consideration for the opposite sex. I was 75% of the way to breaking down into tears and the only thing keeping me together was my determination not to look weak. But I was so lost. I even saw a really naked, really fat, probably drunk man taking a shower in a fountain XD
It was not the part of town a 15 year old anime girl with kitty ears was meant to peruse at 11 at night. (That’s how long I was wandering around).

My responsible friend was pissed at me. Barely talked to me the rest of the night, because she told me not to go wandering around the city at night and I didn’t listen to her because I honestly didn’t feel like there was any danger.

Nice guy knew the area well. Had been to the convention several times. Stayed at lots of hotels. Helped me find my way back to my own. And I was so grateful. My feet aches really badly and I didn’t have my tea, but I’ll always remember that guy. <3

And sometimes, just walking with a guy can help. As a 16 year old I was stalked by a guy on a bike who was probably about 40, and would follow me every day from high school to work trying to talk to me. When I went into stores he would wait outside for as much as 10 minutes. He told me I look like a model (definitely not true, especially back then. I’ve always struggled with weight), and I should go into it as a career. I never spoke much to him and just gave him one word answers but I wasn’t rude to him either because, to be honest, I was afraid to make him mad.

He worried me so much I told my parents about him. -.- And my dad said “It’s just their culture, honey.” (Guy was Mexican. As in, from mexico. Not the “racist” application of the term whereby all Hispanics are Mexican)

Mom, meanwhile, was clearly anxious about it and told me to get a picture of the guy with my cell phone so that when I go missing they know where to start looking.

But dads reaction is classic. A lot of guys are like that. They just think women are exaggerating and they blow it off as nothing. A lot of guys are naive in a sense where, because they’re good people, they assume that most guys are like them. Sometimes, guys even get offended by it, and they seem to think that women are pushing some kind of feminist/liberal/#metoo agenda so they try to shut women down about it because they view that mindset as a threat to their freedom.

Anyways. Moms reaction made me see things differently because I’d been uneasy and uncomfortable before, but then I saw the situation as an actual potential threat that needed to be taken care of.

So I asked one of my best friends in high school, who was a really big black guy, to walk me to work. He’s a funny guy because he looks super intimidating but he’s the nicest, most hilarious, most people loving guy you could ever hope to meet. Loved guys, loved girls, loved his teachers, loved the world. Just a great person.

I was surprised at how well it worked. That bike stalker stayed away for weeks after that. He stalked me a bit at the place I worked, riding by and peeking in the window. And he caught up with me a while later and asked me out on a date and I rejected him. I think after that he got the hint.

I don’t think he would have actually hurt me. I think he was a bit of a pedophile and yeah, maybe things were different in whatever part of Mexico he grew up in. But it would be pretty brazen to attack a white girl in a nice neighborhood. And in any case, he didn’t seem like an angry or aggressive person. Just lewd and leery.

Simpson thought I was making the whole thing up :/
I didn’t ask him to walk with me again, because I know it was a bit if a sacrifice for him - he liked hanging out with his friends after school. But it meant a lot to me that he did.

I try to share these stories with girls I talk to. As an adult woman, I no longer require that kind of help because I have better senses and I’m prepared, and I take precautions. But as a young girl, there were a number of times when guys were kind enough to help me out when they thought that, maybe, I might need a bit of extra protection.

It’s sad to me that guys these days are given the wrong idea that chivalry like that is sexist. Yes - it’s sexually discriminatory. But no, it’s not sexually derogatory. It’s actually a show of respect. It’s like saying “Here, I’m going to stop what I’m doing and help you, because you look like you might need help and I know that life for a woman is DIFFERENT. There are more risks, challenges, and dangers, and even if I can’t relate to that, I was taught to respect, and have consideration for that.”

And let’s be real here. If all of the men in the world were bi-sexual and were just as interested in sex from men as they were from women, or better yet, if they were all gay and only interested in sex from men - then men would be the ones at risk, and it’s would be just as dangerous to be in a bad neighborhood for them as it is for women.

No matter how “tough” you think you are, three people can take you down. One person twice your size can take you down. And a gun or a knife - which most rapists are equipped with, can certainly take you down.

Luckily men tend to want women for sex partners...because I’m pretty sure that if all of the men in the world (predators included) were gay, we’d probably have half as much men as we do.

Anyways, yeah. My story isn’t unique. If you really talk to women about these things and hear their stories, you’ll realise that my stories are actually pretty common. I tend to have a few more of them because of my wanderlust. But almost all women I’ve talked to have been verbally threatened and stalked at least once (but usually several times) in their lives. It doesn’t usually happen as young as high school unless you live in a bad area. I might be misremembering but I think that there were a couple of surveys I heard of that suggested that 1 out of every six women have been raped in their lifetime. Not molested. Penetrated. One of the surveys was conducted by phone and I think it was taken during my grandma’s day. Maybe my moms. Another survey may have been more recent and I think it might have suggested that the numbers may have been higher.

Men tent to underestimate the numbers because most men believe statistics are the end all, be all proof of truth (which is nonsense, they are useful but can also be very misleading), and most women will NEVER admit to it. I don’t know if men can really empathize with the feeling of shame and worthlessness that accompany such an attack. Rape gives women PTSD. Nightmares, being paranoid about men who look a certain way or what not. Feeling unsafe in their homes. A soldier’s generalized PTSD is, I think, generally comparable, until you get into forms of it where specific traumatic events have happened, in which case it’s worse. But even military men tend to not want to talk about their PTSD, and many with the less aggressive symptoms of PTSD seem to potentially want to ignore it and pretend it isn’t affecting them.
It’s harder for military men in the fact that you’ve been trained to think weakness is death, but it’s easier in that people will believe you and have compassion for you, and you don’t need to prove that it happened.

Women will often confide in their friends though. Eventually, at least. I think it takes most women years. Probably at least 5 or more. Of the people that have confessed to me, most of them were attacked when they were pretty young, and didn’t talk about it for probably 15 years.

That’s why I can understand things like the metoo movement. I don’t agree with it. But I think I understand the sentiment behind it. People feel like if women feel free to admit to it, then maybe we can do something about it.

But as with the feminist movement, there’s a hardcore minority of females that are looking to use something like metoo to bully nice guys and call chivalry sexist.

Pretty much any positive females rights movement we have is ruined by this minority of aggressive women, who hate men and want them to pay. Or want them to be ashamed of being men. And take pride in not being logical. It sucks.

At times I’ve wondered if my efforts aren’t better spent trying to talk to women like that. I’ve spent more of my time learning about the male struggle so I can empathize with what men are going through.

There’s a lot of bitter, nasty, power tripping men and women out there’s who ruin it for the rest of us. Guys wouldn’t have to worry about being “creepy” if it weren’t for people like my college professor
-.- ......

Girls don’t know what creepy is these days. They think everything is creepy. That’s been the consequence of all of this feminist propaganda. It’s been confusing to young girls who are still trying to figure out the spectrum of behavior they need to worry about.

Anyways. That all got long-winded, but I’m hoping that maybe some of these views will be seen as helpful to people. Guys can be really bad at understanding the female experience. If they did, though, a lot of things might make more sense.

Maybe she didn’t want to come up to your apartment because she was worried. Something you did, or said, or a way that you looked at her might have correlated with male behavior she’s seen in the past that was aggressive or potentially dangerous.

Women aren’t very likely to go out with a perfect stranger. Especially as they get older and wiser. They’re not all that likely to be flippant about giving out their phone number or address. Sometimes they will even lie because they’re worried a man might get offended if they don’t give out their number, so they write it down wrongly. A LOT of women are intimidated about being too flirtatious or letting something sexual “slide” by not doing anything about it, or encouraging it by responding positively, because they worry that if things educate and they want to back out of it - the guy might get angry, and either scare her out of her whits by having a freak out, or he might get forceful out of a sense of entitlement.

One of the worst things you can have with women is a sense of entitlement or a feeling like the world is unjust about how much sex you get...because it shows. It shows in the way you speak, look, move. Women are very good at picking up on something like that. They’re good, also, at picking up on behaviors from men who have contempt for life.

Nor do women appreciate being objectified, because if a person is just an object, you don’t respect them, and you’re not necessarily going to treat them well.

Not to horrify the people here...but I read one account on the darker internet of a woman who talked about being raped by several men who showed up in her room when she was sleeping at her boyfriends house, while he was home, and the male response was that hey boyfriend probably “sold her”.

I’m not saying that commonly happens. I think it’s pretty sick and I doubt it’s common. BUT it’s a demonstration of one of the reasons, I think, that women instinctively turn away from objectification. People can be cruel to people they see as just a product or a means to an end.

Which goes back to my instinctual phobias.

Do I think these thoughts are necessarily running through a woman’s head all of the time? No. Absolutely not.

But they’re in the background. Women seem to be hyper aware of the fact that they have something very valuable that puts a target on their back. It’s like walking around with a briefcase full of money - as one comedian put it. (Dave Chappel?)

I think that’s an excellent way for men to empathize with the way women behave instinctually. If you were walking around with a briefcase full of money, and someone started following you, or leering at you, you might feel uncomfortable too.

I think this is also a potential reason why women like to group up. That could hark back to our genetic primate ancestry where matriarchal groupings banded together for protection by strength in numbers.

Last thing I will say is that this whole mindset generally tends to trigger feminists, who want me to tell people that there’s no difference between men and women. In a lot of ways, that’s fundamentally true. In the ways that we are different, the difference is usually so minor as to not be relevant in society (like differences in reaction time, for instance).

There’s two major differences that cannot be ignored, though, and that’s that men are far more angry and aggressive and predisposed to anger then women are, and women are far more concerned about sustaining injuries then men are.

Most women live their lives around not getting hurt. Fears of spiders, rats, snakes. Not having the courage to lift very heavy things or go rock climbing. Obviously many women, like myself, have easily conquered the more timid aspect of femininity - but even in my case, I would be terrified to get into a fight because I would be afraid I would get hurt. Yes, not all women are like that - but I think it’s a fundamental instinct to be that way.

As Cog said - men - they don’t have that fear. The little bits of it they do have, they repress. Men are also quick to anger and way more likely to get physical about it.

So that’s where the relatability between men and women kind of falls through. Men can’t understand the female instinct for self-preservation. They often accuse women of being illogical because of it. They get frustrated because it’s so hard to empathize with the female’s point of view.

And the instinct for self-preservation comes through in spades during dating - at least, that’s my opinion. A female’s secretive, avoidant kind of behaviors are often, from my way of thinking, related to some kind of drive to avoid danger.

That’s why my advice to men is always the same. Be friends with women. Empathize with women. Relate to them. Stop objectifying - and ditch your sense of entitlement. Stop measuring her up in terms of objective assets too - like breast size.

All of these habits, which are so easy for men to develop due to the fact that they find it so difficult to empathize with women, lead to a personality type that most women are going to feel instinctively adverse to. If you do not view her as a human, just like you, she WILL pick up on it, and she’s going to wonder what’s wrong with you. That’s my opinion on it.

I mean, some women just aren’t like that at all though. Some just seem to have no sense of self-preservation...but I don’t think those are the kinds of women most guys are looking to date.

Anyways.

I hope maybe I’ve convinced some men on this forum to put a little more effort into empathizing with women, instead of studying them like science experiments (which makes men tend to objectify and judge women instead), and I hope, if so, I’ve made it a little easier to empathize by sharing my views on things.

I like the guys here. I think it’s really sad when guys feel really disconnected from women - or even scared of women - because to be honest, I think men are naturally very romantic, and I actually think that the male-female connection is even more important to men then it is to women. I’ve known a lot of women who are happily alone in life. Not so with men.

 

[Black Rose]

When did that happen?

March 25, 2019 to May 25, 2019

 

[Inexorable Username]

why science and engineering are predominately male pursuits

So, this I disagree with. I don’t disagree that these disciplines are currently predominantly male, but I disagree that that’s the natural state of things.

There’s been enough involvement from women in fields of math and science that I think that it’s fair to say that a lot of the lack of female participation in that regard may be due to the way our culture is.

Women have been particularly involved in computer science and technology from a historical point of view...which makes sense, since it’s really sort of the first time that women were encouraged to step up to the plate.

Although I may be mistaken, I actually think I remember from my research that women used to be viewed as being more rational than men.

That view makes sense, because the female tendency towards having caution, analysing potential dangers, etc. lends itself to intellectual and rational thinking.

I think I remember hearing a perspective from someone who was a history buff in computer science, math, and technology, that women were considered to be more rational when it came to abstract or intangible concepts. I need to research that because it’s all just sort of loose little bits and pieces I’m dragging up from my memory, and it’s may be incorrect.

But in any case, thinking has often been attributed to women. Intangible stuff or working things out on paper, or in the abstract sense.

We went through this whole movement of genderizing though. As a consequence, we raise our girls a certain way from the time they are babies, and we tell them things like women are emotional and illogical. Pretty soon it becomes true for many women. In particular, women are bullied pretty badly in grade school - or at least, they used to be - and most women don’t have much confidence or much of a high opinion of the female sex by the time they are adolescents. They believe, in large, that a woman’s job is to look pretty, get married, and have babies.

I can go on and on about why that is from my perspective and how times have changed, and how we need to adapt now. But I don’t want to get too wordy.

In a nutshell, I think math, technology, and science is as much a woman’s realm (if not more so) as a mans one. But society is getting further and further from realising that potential.

And to add to that - I’m perfectly aware of the study out of (the Netherlands?) that showed that when everything was entirely equal (apparently) women chose disciplines that were more social and nurturing. But I have a case for why that is that I feel makes more sense than the conclusion that women are fundamentally designed as such.

For the record, there’s certainly jobs that I don’t think women he a tendency for. The military. I can see no convincing evidence that women have ever really been interested in this, and I would argue that the few that are may be overcompensating for feelings of being the “lesser sex”. Heterosexual women. I can’t speak for other sex preferences. I don’t understand that topic very well and I cant find much information to go off of.

Other jobs that I think men are naturally better at : exploring (as you mentioned), manufacturing, martial arts and fighting disciplines, construction work, and most things involving a risk to ones person - as you mentioned.

I honestly also thing that men are actually better at mindless, gruelling work - but I know that’s not a nice thing to say...I’m not trying to make out that men are stupid - I don’t believe that - but I think women are less tolerant to prolonged physical labour if they feel it’s not goal orientated. Women seem to think a lot more when they work like that, and if you overthink it, you have a tendency to get bitter and resentful about it. Men seem to be more likely to just suck it up and follow orders.

That could also just be a consequence of society.

The reason I say “mindless”, is just because I know there’s a large population of women that are farm girls and things. If the work is something that aligns to a goal like achieving something for the family, I think that women are pretty good at sucking it up and getting it done. But they’re not necessarily good, from what I can tell, at following orders due to respecting the hierarchy. Men seem to have a lot more respect for station.

candid discussion of personal topics to mean I wouldn’t judge him harshly if he shared his decidedly not-politically-correct worldview with me

This made me laugh. The same thing happens to me all the time.
I mean, I don’t say anything...but sometimes I wonder - why on earth would you get the impression that I wouldn’t judge you for that XD

I’ve had this with a lot of racist or homophobic people. I generally let them say their peace, and ask a lot of questions so I can understand where they’re coming from and give them a fair shot to express their beliefs in their entirety, before shutting them down. And I can kind of take a bit of pleasure in “winning” at that point...which I shouldn't. That’s arrogant of me. Also, being outspoken like that is not necessarily helpful because a lot of the times these people have a poor logical ability and they refuse to lose even when they’re wrong.

I took the opportunity to interview him because even if I didn’t agree with him I’m still curious about how such a mind works.

Yup. Same. But like I said - sometimes I get too excited by the challenge. It’s something I’ve tried to curb.

I think religion has twisted the natural synergistic male/female dynamic in which men naturally defer to women for decision making because we like being told what to do (rather given opportunities to earn affirmation)

This stance of yours interests me. Most men claim to hate being told what to do and they complain that their partners “nag” them to do basic things like take out the trash. (Do you really need someone to nag you for that? I pity your wife.)

I think, generally, women do adopt the bossy role - but I think it’s often due to the male’s complete lack of input. In a house, things need to be fixed, children need to get their homework done and maintain a routine, and groceries need to be stocked. Most men don’t want to keep track of things like that and, indeed, it can be very difficult if not somewhat impossible if you work all day. So the only person left to keep track of those things and make sure they get done is the wife.

and that women should be forthcoming with their affections which I believe would make both men and women a lot less neurotic.

Do you mean that single women should be more open, or that women in a relationship should be more loving?

Lately, I’ve had a look at my last very bad relationship, and i’ve been kind of taking a look at some other relationships I would consider dysfunctional, and what I’ve found sort of disturbs me.

It seems like women who are more forth coming with their love and approval end up being treated more poorly.

I have a neighbor who told me that men love to feel like men, so you should ask them to do manly things and not just do them yourself, (which is tempting, because it’s often easier than getting a guy to do something), and then you should give them positive feedback that makes them feel masculine. “Thank you for that, I could have done it but holding the power washer up like for a long time is harder for me because I’m not as strong as you are.” Things like that.

And she would also do sweet things like absentmindedly sort of “pet” her husbands biceps. Shes quite an attractive woman. He’s a tall, big guy, but I wouldn’t say he’s particularly macho. He’s more shy, sweet, quiet, and reserved...but even so, he doesn’t treat her well. He criticizes her over missing the tiniest spot on the counter of her perfectly clean house, requires her to maintain the house, yard, and handle all the food (despite the fact that she also has a job - they have no kids), and won’t let her friends visit because it’s “his house”. Her name isn’t even on the deed, I don’t think.

I used to make a point of telling my boyfriend that I appreciated that he worked really hard, that I thought he was really intelligent, and that he was much stronger than most of the guys out there’s and far more brave.

He also didn’t respect my opinion, would criticise my appearance and my job cleaning (despite saying that I was the only girlfriend who knew how to clean and he appreciated how I would stick to it until it was perfect), and basically told me that if we ever got married, the house and everything in it would belong to him, that every man saw it that way (including my father), that I was basically just living in it and I was lucky to have someone provide for me... -_-

He once told me that the reason he never complimented me was because it would go to my head. He was also a fan of telling me repeatedly that I was illogical, I had no idea what I was talking about, my research didn’t count because I didn’t have a degree from a prestigious school like his, and he once told me that’s I was too stupid to read, because I wouldn’t understand what I read and get bad ideas.

It’s only recently come to my attention that there is this pattern - but the more I look into it, the more it seems to be a thing.

I even remember that when Allie broke up with her boyfriend, and I broke up with mine, we actually had a conversation about how we felt like we’d been too nice, too loving, and not assertive enough. We considered the marriages we’d known and came to the mutual conclusion that women that make it work...they’re kind of bitchy.

They boss their mates around, rarely demonstrate affection, and are sometimes even manipulative or dishonest because they want their kids and husband to believe certain things or act a certain way. But they make things work, and have solid, stable households, and solid, stable families.

The few instances I’ve known where men sort of “ruled the roost”, their kids ended up hating them, their wife ended up being like a timid mouse, and often times there was abuse. Especially verbally.

I’m not saying that’s the rule of thumb. That’s just what I’ve observed of the marriages I’ve known.

But it bothered me a lot. Allie went on to date a guy that was younger than her and she’s a bit colder and less naive now. I just don’t date anymore. If I had to be assertive and aggressive in a relationship...I would feel like I’m not being myself. I like to be supportive, encouraging, and very, very loving. I see contributing to a relationship as something of a moral obligation that takes daily effort.

But if it is the case that such an attitude brings out the worst in men...then my previous relationship failures make a lot of sense.

I’ve also had at least one relationship where I wasn’t like that though, and was criticized for being too aloof...but surprisingly, that relationship with with someone who was probably a sociopath, and in a weird way, it was potentially one of my better major relationships - which is sort of sad. Lol.

Could it be that what men really want/need is the sense of striving for approval/affection? That once they get these things, they feel like the king of the hill, and like they now have a hierarchical status that demands that’s others behave a certain way towards them, to include sharing their philosophies, following their directions, and so forth?

I feel like such an attitude is verging on sexism so I’m hesitant to think that way.

As a male, what explanations do you have to offer for a behavioral pattern such as this?

Or do you feel that this behavioral pattern even exists?

 

[Inexorable Username]

When did that happen?

March 25, 2019 to May 25, 2019

With such a long history of disturbances, I almost feel like the people in charge of your health should have either (A) seen this coming, or (B) have addressed this issue pretty thoroughly by now.

Are you supposed to take medication that you didn’t take?

I know issues like this can be hard to tackle for professionals. It’s kind of a case-by-case basis, and I know that the body’s response to drugs can change...

But I’m also sketchy about a lot of health profs. I feel like they often don’t do their due diligence.

Out of curiosity, have you tried any natural personal experiments to see which things affect you in which ways?

I have a bit of an odd brain myself. I was diagnosed with ADD and potentially a mild case of dyslexia (which I think was a misdiagnosis. I have auditory processing issues sometimes. Different.)

But anyways - I don’t necessarily see myself as disabled but I do agree that my brain is quite different. There’s a lot of little indications of that.

Through trial and error, I found out that my body works best on a low carb diet with moderately high levels of both fat and protein, that caffeine actually helps me sleep if I have to do an 8 hour sleep cycle, and that lack of sleep can actually improve my productivity and focus. I eventually figured out that 4/4 or 6/2 are the best sleep patterns for me.
And weirdly enough, all of these things also have a suppressive influence on any kind f levels of depression or anxiety I might feel.

I don’t generally tend to express these things to people because the “media science” (I refuse to call these magazine articles and stuff real science), demonizes low carb diets and alternative keep schedules. And caffeine as well. I’m well aware of what the popular opinions are.

But, you know, living in accordance to popular opinion caused me a lot of difficulties in my life. It took me a long time to accept that a lot of those opinions not only didn’t apply to me, but were making things worse.

———

Now on the topic of paranoia. I know that weed and alcohol both can make people very paranoid. In the case of alcohol though, I think its prolonged or heavy use that does it. It has seriously bad side effects for a person’s dopamine levels. Not sure if you take anything like that.

I’ve also noticed for me, personally, that when I’m not as hormonally balanced I can tend to feel anxious, edgy. Worried about things. It’s nothing like what you’re taking about of course. But I have had situations where I’ve convinced myself that my cat was trapped outside because I thought I heard something, and I’ll spend 15 minutes trapsing through the snow making sure. These are times when my hormones are out of whack due to some kind of dietary/sleep imbalance, from what I can tell....but also - and this is a BIG ONE - disorganization.

Having a disorganised living space makes my mind feel disjointed and chaotic. If things are messy, cluttered, what have you, it makes me feel almost like I’m losing control of my life, which makes me start to think dark things.

Here are the three biggest things I’ve noticed about myself in a nutshell:
- Empty carbs from grains, starches, beans/legumes...they make me think like my thoughts are balls in one of those bingo things that you spin to randomly select a number.
- Sleeping for too long makes me feel like I just woke up after hibernating for the winter and it can take hours for me to find my stride. It makes my brain feel slow and sluggish and then because it takes me so long to get started, I have trouble sleeping at night.
- Caffeine helps mitigate that ^ by getting me going earlier by just waking my mind up and making me feel like I’m not about to pass out. Ideally it’s better if I sleep less twice a day.
- I have to have an organised environment to have an organised mind.

It sounds to me like maybe you felt like you were losing control/helpless? Maybe that’s where the anxiety came in?

If so, I can relate to that, and I am confirm that having a tidy, organized living space has made a world of difference for me.

But I also struggle to maintain schedules and routines, and I’ve found ways to help motivate myself on that front and be a little more regular with mundane work.

If you’re interested, I’d be happy to share them with you! I’m passionate about it...but I don’t think it’s interesting to people and a lot of times I think people think i’m just showing off. So.

In any case...
I would say that one of the problems with dealing with mental health issues is the feeling that you aren’t in control. Medical professionals I think, unfortunately, can exacerbate that with that attitude of “Don’t dare try anything yourself, consult a professional”.

When it comes to drugs, I agree. But there’s something liberating and empowering about taking the bull by the horns and taking charge of your own mental health. I find that simply treating myself like my own mental health patient can actually help to pull me out of some pretty bad spots.

Sometimes I keep diaries to track my moods, and I try to make correlations, and analyze the deeer reasons for certain things.

I try experiments with sleep, food, and other factors like exercise and environment. I also found that I need to regularly go out in public, even if I don’t socialite with anyone. If I stay isolated for too long, my mind starts to become less grounded in reality.

It’s stuff like this that I’ve discovered for myself through taking responsibility for my emotions and believing that I can find solutions.

Now don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying you don’t do that, and I’m DEFINITELY not saying that your episodes are “your fault” or something. Dear god, that would be ignorant.

No. There’s a lot of stuff that’s just simply out of our control and we can be helpless victims to things our mind does and the ways our hormones shift. People who think they’re immune to that are just blind. The mind is an amazing, terrifying, power thing...

But if you feel like you’re a dependent person who lives their life based solely on the opinions, advice, and feelings of everyone around you...maybe you would find that you struggle less with paranoia when you learn to become your own advocate, and your own mechanism for self-discovery and self-improvement.

I hope I’m not overstepping here. I’m making so many assumptions - not based on what you’ve said - but solely based on friends I’ve have that have struggled with mental health problems. I have a lot of compassion for it. I try my best to help in any way that I can. I think sometimes I can kind of help a bit.

My friends in the past seem to think they’re broken on the inside. I know how that feels. But people only feel that way consistently when they also feel helpless. I have a friend I grew up with that found his empowerment a couple of years ago. Stopped drinking. Stopped smoking pot and cigarettes, and just turned his life around to an amazing degree. This is the guy that would have psychotic breaks and stuff. His mother was manic - his whole family was pretty screwed up. I think the death of his mother actually helped him to be free...which is a screwed up thing to say. But the point is - he’s a pretty normal guy now. So it just goes to show, even the most “broken” people aren’t really broken.

Anyways...You should talk to us about this. Share what’s going on with you and how it feels. I can’t be the only person who would love to have more information about things like that, so I can better understand a different walk of life. I think we’re all curious here, and from what I can tell, people here are very compassionate about mental health issues.

I think it’s something we can ALL identify with on some level. And INTPs are just weird to begin with I think. Especially me, as I’m a female one. Lol.

Well. If you’re interested in hearing some of the things I’ve done to get my life more organized, I’d love to have that convo with you IF that’s one of the things you struggled with.

If not though...
What is it that you find you struggle with in every day life?
What bothers you the most?
Maybe people here can relate. Someone might have already tested certain things for themselves and found some solutions. Just saying.

 

[Black Rose]

To keep with the thread topic these are some of my fears:

The house will burn down (first time I had this bad thought)
I live in the matrix
I will go to hell
I am the only person in existence
I will never find love

mental healthwise

The big events happen like this:
I stay up for more than 3 days at a time.
my mind is a vegetable, I feel unconscious well awake, zombie.
I cannot talk, my mind is blank, worse than usual.
Everything is drained out until it is so empty hyper mania sets it.
Hyper mania is when there is an acceleration of ideas.
I lose the ability to know what is real or not (I am on animal instinct mode)
It takes days to come down (It was more difficult this event, no one listened I thought)

More static problems
(all in my brain)
anxiety, twisting, contorting, heat, inability to think, mental fog, depression but inability to cry

 

[Inexorable Username]

Yeah, I just came back to relate what I'd said previously to the original point of the topic as well.

The points I made before about the kind of "instinctual fears" women can have - I meant to do a better job of relating that back to the topic at hand.

I think that women instinctually fear rape, and by the same token, they fear the behaviors that correlate with rape. A total lack of fear in a person, a person who objectifies fellow people, a person who has no sense of the value of life. A person who is particularly temperamental - easy to trigger, quick to anger. More likely to be angry or "frustrated" (as many men phrase it) than happy or loving.

There's an instinctive aversion to people like that. I think. I've actually felt it on a primal level. I've just looked at someone, and the bells and whistles went off in my head to say "That person is dangerous". That happened once with the guy that tried to murder someone, and another time with a guy that ended up being controlling of my friend in a relationship, and while I don't think he ever forced her or physically abused her, he did some pretty messed up things, that most men would probably consider not that bad - but that freaked us girls out.

That's an issue I encounter a lot of when it comes to male perspectives. Certain things just don't seem that bad if you're a guy, because you can't relate to the kinds of ways that women will feel. This guy I'm talking about came to my house while we were having a sleepover, and refused to leave the property without his girlfriend who he "just wanted to talk to", who was hiding from him. He argued with me tooth and nail about it. It was freaky, because of how intense he was, and the emotion he was emanating - which he would have called frustration, but I perceived it as dangerous, and so did my friends.
And I was right. He took her on some kind of psycho car ride that I still don't know the full details on, scared the bejesus out of her, and told her she should kill herself. But when my dad came down the stairs, he totally failed to pick up on that vibe. I'd been arguing with this guy for the last 10 minutes on my front porch telling him, basically, to get the fuck off my property, and dad came down the stairs and this guy made up some bs of how he'd forgotten his sweater and needed to talk to his girlfriend, and dad assumed I was being dramatic and invited the bastard in.

But, as young girls, we didn't really have experience with attitudes like that guy's. I do now - but our aversion to it was an instinctual thing. As was my aversion to the guy that was just saying "Hey" on the corner, or the guys that got out of their truck and started walking towards me. These aren't things a person can consciously explain. I think they may have something to do with what people call "Women's intuition".

I think these are correlations and fears that are programmed into us over time. It's not even unreasonable to make an evolutionary biology case here, to suggest that women who were better at surviving probably possessed more of this caution and more of an instinct for danger. BUT I think it goes beyond that. There's some evidence that information received by animals may be programmed into them in a way, so that it can be passed across generations. Potentially, the explanation lies in epi-genetics. They did this experiment with crows, and found that young crows would react to phobias their grandparents had developed (essentially skipping a generation to somewhat account for passing along the information via communication). I've seen it myself with the deer in my parents yard. After a couple of years of having an electric fence around the garden, the deer have never gotten back into it - after multiple generations.

Is it possible that we can genetically pass down particular fears?
If so, isn't it reasonable to assume that we would distinguish between which fears are particularly important, and which ones - not so much - by obsessing over those fears and committing them to memory, time and time again?

In which case, fantasizing about the things we fear might make a lot of sense.

And if this is the case - I know we're already making a bit of a stretch here - but if that's the case, then it may also make sense that the tendency to fantasize about fears that have been programmed into us is also genetically passed on, even if those threats no longer exist. Perhaps it takes a while for them to abate.

---------

Children seem to have instinctual, ancestral fears. They fear monsters, and aloneness. And that makes sense...while we don't have monsters in the suburbs of Chicago per say, I think, predators would have definitely been a significant threat to children in ancient times. Being without a guardian would have been a particularly dangerous situation.

Here's another thing to think about. Most people tend to get mildly depressed around sundown. Tired. Wanting to find a safe place to relax. Most people also get anxious and depressed at night - much, much moreso than during the day. Traditionally speaking, most of our predators would have been crepuscular or nocturnal, I believe.
People particularly have an instinct to be adverse to being alone at night. Children fear it and cry, but even adults are affected by sleeping alone. Sleeping alone, historically speaking, is somewhat recent. (I mean sleeping with nobody else in the room, not sleeping with nobody else in your bed.) Lindybeige had a good episode on it.

Some examples. Someone who was black once told me that all black people are afraid of dogs. I've found that, even in a nice neighborhood, with a nice, friendly dog that is wagging their tail and wearing a scarf, there were black kids who would cross the road just to avoid being near the dog. Obviously, this could just be from being raised that way. I know that a lot of people use dogs as guard dogs, so maybe their parents tell them to be afraid. But it's also a possibility that this phobia is the consequence of ancestral genes from the times of slavery, where black people were persecuted with dogs. That wasn't really all that long ago.

Men who risked dying, or were likely to have to kill someone, may have had to deal constantly with fears of deaths and threats of having to murder. A guy I like to watch, Lindybeige, presents research that suggests that traditional soldiers weren't really as bloodthirsty and brutal as depicted. A lot of times, they really, really didn't want to kill someone - and many of them would just be stunned into not performing. They also really, really didn't want to get hurt. So psychologically, there were a lot of challenges to ancestral warfare on that front.

Then of course, there's the long standing history of women and rape.

--------

We're quick to call some of these things instincts but not others. I think we easily recognize old genetic instincts because they're obvious. But if we believe that these instincts indeed are genetic, and not cultural, and we also believe that genetics can change within a single generation due to epi-genetics, why not have more recent genetic instincts for fear as well?

Could it be that things like racial fears or fears of institutions/uniformed individuals like police officers, can also get imprinted on us in a matter of generations?

What kind of instinctual fears might we have had just a few generations ago that have fallen by the wayside now?

Could obesity, for instance, be in some way related to the genetic fear of food insecurity, and if so, might that be phasing out? A lot of Irish people, for instance, migrated to the US in response to the potato famine. Obesity also seems to be correlative with lower income households - which is in part due to food quality/quality of life, but perhaps its also due in part to ancestral food insecurity.

---------

Sorry. These are all just thoughts, and I hope no one has found them to be offensive.

My final point is that I think that we, perhaps, have a tendency to fantasize about things we instinctually fear. Fearing from having to run from the law, many men fantasize about what it would be like to murder someone...but the difference, psychologically, that I find, is that many men seem to actually fixate on the aftermath of the murder - what they would do about it. How they would hide the body.

Children fantasize about monsters quite aggressively, even though it terrifies them. When they see a shadow in the darkness, that shadow is a snake, or someone reaching out of the dark closet to get them. They visualize how the thing looks and what it might do, and they often have dreams to that affect.

And women - a lot of women fantasize about being raped.

If you think about that, it makes sense as to why fantasizing about these things would be beneficial to our survival. In the case of sexual attacks, fantasizing about being attacked can help program the body to have biological responses that can minimize the amount of permanent damage the victim sustains. If men fantasize about fighting someone, that extra little bit of imagination could mean an advantage in reaction time, strategy, and a better level of emotional control.

For the same reason, people fantasize about having debates and arguments with others. They imagine that they're able to control their emotional and physiological reactions to the aggressive stimuli they receive.

One common denominator here is that a lot of people would never want these things to happen (except for maybe a debate, but really, that's arguable - fight or flight...), but they can often experience a sense of excitement or thrill at processing the information. Or if not that, then a fixation, or almost an obsessive feeling.

I think that's pretty normal. I think that's brain structures like the anterior cingulate, which I think helps determine fixation, and the amygdala and hippocampus, working to create a neurological circuit that will achieve the end objective. We often need some sense of relief, closure, satisfaction, or a feeling of peace before we're able to break out of a fixation fantasy. Otherwise, it can be very difficult. For instance, if someone slighted you, and you spend the next three days fixating on what you would have said - there's no closure there. It's hard to take your mind off of it.

So we need a mechanism to both resurrect the ancestral fear, mentally process it, program the current body with beneficial information that will help us to survive, and then provide some sense of closure so you can store that information and move on with your life, rather than being impeded by it.

Another common denominator I find is that when people do confess these fantasies, they almost always do so in terms of their response. "This person did this, and I ______ ". For women, a lot of women seem to express making the conscious decision to just go limp like a rag doll or something, but rarely, some even express this idea in their head where they get hyper sexual in response to the attack - almost as a way of not being a victim....and I've come across that fantasy with some people online who claim to be gay, bi, or trans. Men get away with their mental murders by making careful, cooly logical decisions, and mastering their fears - and they often talk about being able to trick other people with their calm, collected attitude.

In our heads, we come up with these unrealistic responses we think we would have to these situations. The responses we think would suit us best. Some of us delude ourselves into believing "Oh, yes, that's definitely how I would respond. Instinctually, I know that's the case"....but this isn't so. Anyone who has been in these situations will point blank tell you that you have no idea how you'll respond. In situations of sexual attacks, I think women are more likely to freeze on the spot and become very rigid and tense, and say nothing - probably the exact opposite of what you should be doing, but its sheer fear. When faced with a dead body, many people just lose their fucking minds. A lot of murderers even call the cops after they killed someone - it seems, women in particular. (Maybe fantasizing about murder has its advantages?)

People are more than happy to think they'd be able to a shoot a person if necessary, but very few people are able to make that decision when confronted with the situation, if they've never shot someone before.

I think this all somewhat suggests that a lot of the fantasies we have, and the way we play them in our minds, is a means of sort of encouraging us to do X, Y, Z, should this situation occur. The fact that we feel the pressure, curiosity, even urge sometimes to process these things - it's telling. To me, it tells me that this is something deep, instinctual, and there's probably a very, very good reason for it.

-------

I started this thread, really, because I recently voiced the opinion that women do fantasize about rape. Not all women, but many. But I felt it was really important to clarify why I think that is - because voicing that opinion makes me feel very uncomfortable.

There's A LOT of men out there who feel like rape isn't that bad, or that women "secretly want to be raped". NO woman secretly wants to be raped. Women fear it. A lot of how we think and feel is designed to keep us from being raped (which is another indication that rape is somehow natural because it's an advantage for the species, is nonsense.)

Women are also deeply ashamed of having these fantasies. It's not a nice thing to talk about, or reference, because it's confusing for women. A lot of them feel like "What's wrong with me" - and if they confess to things like this...its in the utmost of secrecy, and as far as I can see from what I've been told - few of them would ever dare admit this to their partner.

So this idea that all women love to be dominated and want to be made to feel like their helpless, and want to feel used, and maybe even abused, and secretly wish someone would rape them - no, it's nonsense. It baffles me why a living, breathing human would draw that conclusion, actually. What human wants to be held down, and hurt, and controlled by someone who thinks they're nothing more important than...like...a sock. Women have a natural aversion to that.

BUT, sexual taboos lie perilously close in the brain, I think, to ancestral, fear-based fantasies. Just because a person has those thoughts, and learns appropriate defensive biological mechanisms to them (like becoming turned on, or being like a rag-doll), doesn't mean they actually want that to happen. They will straight up tell you that they don't. Also - again, some people have been abused, and that trauma can cause a lot of confusion, especially if the abuse occurs to a child who is still hormonally developing into an adult.

The appropriate knowledge for men to glean from this information is that to understand that, yes, for quite a few people, a sense of danger can be sexually stimulating. (Man or woman). And yes, the stimulation is probably instinctual. But it's important to remember that the fantasy is fake. So the situation from a sexual point of view must feel as fake as the fantasy to get the same biological reaction. So women might role-play with their partners, if they're brave enough to come clean about what excites them, but they only reach that level of intimacy after they forge a relationship with someone they really love, and really trust, who they know wouldn't actually hurt them. Someone who knows them well enough to know where the boundaries are, and how to avoid hurting another person, or crossing the line. It's why people have safe words. If women actually wanted to be raped - then why do people have safe words?

That's why its a topic that makes me a little uncomfortable. I feel like, as with so many things about women, men get this information and run off looking for biological reasons for it, and they often seem to end up deciding that their own instinctual urges are confirmed. For instance - that violence is a good thing, or that rape is a genetic advantage. It's confirmation bias, and its what men will often use to feel more like men...I think, maybe. And the worst part about it, is that it can turn certain men into the very thing that women fear.

So it's not a good thing to go rabbiting around about in public. I don't normally put ideas into the "taboo" section, and I don't normally withhold opinions out of defensiveness, but this is one of those situations where I generally do....I try not to lie, but I do feel a little awkward and put on the spot when this topic comes up, because we don't need more men thinking that rape isn't that bad and that women secretly like it.

Actually, I think what men would find, is that if they could become more understanding, and relate more to where females are coming from, and the feelings they feel, many women would happily open up to them about some of these sexual fantasies that they feel very ashamed of and insecure about. On the contrary, when men think that women are irrational, illogical, deluded, manipulative, and too dumb to understand their bodies and their instincts, and that the only way to get the "truth" is to look at veerrrryyyy selective scientific studies, or dubious suggestions in evolutionary biology, or stats with a terribly small sample, a very specific demographic, or conclusions that are way too far-reaching to be backed by said statistics....well that's when women feel judged, ridiculed, alienated...and worst of all - ashamed of being a woman, and then by the same token, bitter and resentful towards the men that made them feel like that.

So yeah, that's why I went into this dark territory that is probably almost entirely inappropriate for this website. I wanted to present what I thought was the truth, but do so in a way that I think also helps to make sense of the truth, and put it into context, to challenge the analytical confirmation-biased type of views that men will inevitably draw from information like that.

 

[Inexorable Username]

To keep with the thread topic these are some of my fears:

The house will burn down (first time I had this bad thought)
(1) I live in the matrix
(2) I will go to hell
(3) I am the only person in existence
(4) I will never find love

So, I think numbers 2 and 4 are pretty typical. Numbers 1 and 3 suggest delusions.
I think there's one overarching theme here...a sense that the world around you isn't real. Or else, that it's real, but in the sense that it's all "a game" or a program, or a facsimile of what real life should be.

Have you ever thought about starting your own thread to discuss things like this?

The other theme I get here is a great deal of underlying anxiety. I don't know which order you've thought these things in, over the course of your episodes, or even if there is an order, but the anxiety seems to differ in levels of "pressure". For instance, fearing you're the only person in the world. You can't do much about that. So totally scary, but not something that would galvanize you into action. Fearing you'll go to hell - that's a post-death consequence, so there's a little more of a sense of urgency. Fearing you'll never find love - that's a somewhat immediate fear, because of course, you feel like you need the love and you need it within a relatively soon time period - ie, not 20 years from now.

Now fearing that your house will burn down - that's an absolute, immediate, triggering anxiety that causes significant and drastic action.

What I find interesting is the mixture of real-life concerns, and concerns of detachment, or mental disillusion. It's almost like your brain, maybe, is trying to lend credence to unrealistic anxieties, by mixing in a few realistic ones. Like a tv show where they have werewolves, but people also go shopping and use snapchat.

Could you compare your world to something like that? Like a tv show? How personal does this feel? Do you feel like you're in yourself, or looking at yourself from a distance? Do you vacillate between these two modes?

I almost feel like your anxieties are suggestive of that. If I thought I was the only person in existence, or I might live in the matrix, I would be looking at myself as if I'm a stranger. Sort of out-of-body. If I'm worried I'll go to hell, or never find love, it would be something I would feel very personally, out of my own eyes. Maybe I would even feel a bit like I'm trapped in my own body - doomed to these outcomes because I am who I am, and I can't be anyone different.

I hope you wouldn't find my analysis to be insulting to you. I don't discount what you suffer with, and I don't think of you as an animal or some kind of lab rat. I have a lot of respect and feeling for these deep things you're struggling with....but the way I talk about these things is a reflection of how I analyze my own struggles. I respect the emotional context, and I think the emotional information is absolutely necessary if one is to be rational, but I think that looking at things objectively and analytically after practicing the empathetic approach, is important, because that's where you form understandings that can be expressed in words...and potentially, maybe even solutions. Who knows.

I know this is deeply personal for you. But if you're ever interested in starting your own "Diary of Animekitty", I would be more than enthusiastic to hear what you have to say and offer my insights...not because I think I know any better than you do, or than the people who offer you legitimate professional help (obviously, they know better)....but because I would learn a lot about what people like you are suffering through, and I think that talking about this with people (maybe, even, a woman in particular?) might help you to feel like you're not quite so alienated. There's some experiences that maybe I could share too. I think others might have some experiences to share as well. We could all discuss these things, and bring them out in the open, and make them something that you could potentially feel don't necessarily disqualify you from human love.

Only if you're up to it. Please don't feel pressured! I don't normally ask people to bare their souls because...well, tbh, perfect strangers just usually come up to me randomly in social settings and do that for free. Which is awkward for me, because I'm dealing with my own psychological issues/fears relating to socializing XD...

But you've intrigued me. I'm so curious to hear more about your experience. I'm sort of excited to hear what other people might have to say too. And I wonder...how many people are suffering through what you're suffering through, but unlike you, can't muster up the courage to talk about it. Your transparency is uncommonly courageous. I can't help but admire that in a person, because I tend to be somewhat secretive, myself. You guys on this forum are helping me find my voice, I think. I'm saying things I never dreamed I'd say out loud. (And I feel totally anxious about it to! XD)

mental healthwise

The big events happen like this:
I stay up for more than 3 days at a time.
my mind is a vegetable, I feel unconscious well awake, zombie.
I cannot talk, my mind is blank, worse than usual.
Everything is drained out until it is so empty hyper mania sets it.
Hyper mania is when there is an acceleration of ideas.
I lose the ability to know what is real or not (I am on animal instinct mode)
It takes days to come down (It was more difficult this event, no one listened I thought)

More static problems
(all in my brain)
anxiety, twisting, contorting, heat, inability to think, mental fog, depression but inability to cry

This is so interesting. Three days? That's a lot without the presence of drugs. I take adderall, and people have told me that can keep a person up. It can definitely make it easier for me not to sleep if I really don't want to, but I generally don't have adderall-related problems falling asleep I don't think. Again, it affects my body weirdly. My doctor more or less said that, and indicated that a certain percentage of people can tend to react (or fail to react) the way that I do.

The vegetable zombie thing is going to give me nightmares. I'm exaggerating, but still. That must be horrible - the brain fog...that zombie-like feeling. I often feel that way for the first few hours when I wake up in the morning, but I don't suffer it continuously like you do. I have more difficulties getting my brain to shut up. She's a chatty thing. I don't need to socialize because there's enough of that going on in my head already. Haha.

Do you feel like the hyper mania is optional? This, I can relate to. I can hyper focus to the extent of not properly taking care of normal biological needs - like drinking enough water, going to the bathroom, or eating. I lose track of time and just get blinders on, and its like my physical needs just shut down. Is that anything like what you can feel? If so....I must admit, I like the feeling. Not only that, but it feels like part of who I am. I wouldn't want to trade it in to be less crazy.

Not that that's a healthy way to think. Lol. I can be self-destructive.

It sounds like what I experience as hyper focus, though, you experience with the addition of anxiety. I think that would drive me up the wall. I can only think of one two time periods in my life where I've felt anything like that, and both made me think I was going mad. It sucked.

Is that depression an apathetic depression?

There's a book I like that you might find useful. It's called "The Mood Cure" by Dr. Julia Ross. (I think). It discusses the different types of depressions and the hormonal imbalances that cause them.

Apathy seems to be related to imbalances in catecholamines.
Tearful depression, to serotonin.
Anxiety, to GABA.

All three of these have amino acids that can be taken in supplement form (at least in the US), which can potentially relieve the symptoms...BUT I absolutely don't recommend you try them without asking your health professional and doing your own research into it, as well - because some of them, like L-Tyrosine, have been known to have dangerous side effects or cause physical dependency symptoms, and some of them, like 5-HTP, I think can potentially make matters worse. A lot of reactions to hormones can be the same if you're very much lacking in the hormone, or also, if you have way too much of the hormone. It's all a balance, and stuff.

There's another book I love that talks about "hacking depression" in a sense - that one is called "The Upward Spiral". These are my two faves regarding depression-related research. (Which includes apathy and anxiety)

Well anyways.
I think that the information you provided, in and of itself, isn't much to go off of. A person would have to understand the circumstances that may lead to these episodes. At the point you're staying up for three days, I would say that's pretty much the point of no return. So a person would want to track what symptoms happen prior to that point.

Not only that, but what your habits and environment were like. Is your room disheveled, did you start having nightmares, is it winter time in a typically dark area, have you not left the house in days, are there relationship stressors, work stressors, or life stressors involved, what kind of food you've eaten, how well you've been sleeping before that...That's why I'm a fan of self-analysis. You'd be much better at analyzing these patterns then a therapist would, because only you have access to you 24/7, and you have the ability to quickly analyze what seems to work and what doesn't, or what seems to feel a certain way...

Do you keep a diary? Here's a thought. If writing seems to be too much work for you, maybe consider keeping auditory diaries. I've done this for myself. I talk to my phone about my problems (or I did at one point in my life), and I found the experience to be very therapeutic. It was also useful just because I was able to look back on my entries and get some context for what was going on during a certain time. I prefer audio recordings to dictation, because dictation makes me feel pressured to make sense - and with audio, I can really take time to gather my thoughts if I need to.

Hope you'll think about starting your own thread!
Good luck to you

 

[peoplesuck]

It blows a lot of guys minds. A lot of guys also will try to tell you that you’re overreacting, which is really unhelpful, because women these days are very sensitive to being made fun of for being overly emotional, and a lot of young girls can be tough to convince when it comes to the potential dangers out there. I was one of them. If you grow up in a nice place, you learn in school and from your family and friends not to be afraid of men, that criminals are rare, and that it’s very unlikely that someone would hurt you or rape you, or even intentionally make you feel unsafe.

How to overcome being a prey animal, in just 3 easy steps:
1. get fit
2. take mma classes for about 1 or 2 years
3. being that you live in america, carry a knife, or gun
LEARN TO FIGHT BEFORE CARRYING A GUN FFS if you cannot fight, and you carry a gun, you have now given a weapon to your attacker

You need to be fit, to fight. duh also parkour and running
you need to know how to fight, and fight efficiently, so that size doesnt matter. BJJ amigo
Carry a weapon with you, even a small pocket knife is lethal, if you can fucking aim.
MMA+knife= fatality

I do love your guard dog strategy too!
dog+ fighting abilities+ weapons=better
you see if you can dissuade them before they start, life is easier.

During your classes you will build up a rational confidence against men. You will understand your fighting abilities.
I think if you fear people, they can sense it, it attracts weirdos.
You need to be confident, but within reason. Your dog sounds like a good method, but without your dog, ??????? you are terrified.
I wouldnt allow myself to live in the world, feeling scared of half the population. I wouldnt complain or blame them either. its what victims do, just fix your problem, dont make it more complicated or bigger than it is. Learn to defend yourself, and aware.
Im not trying to be an asshole, its just not complex. Be capable of defending yourself-> feel safe.
When I didnt trust the people around me, I carried a 13inch bootknife. not super legal, but you make compromises

What im not saying: men are harmless
what I am saying: you are responsible for yourself, be proactive

 

[Cognisant]

HOLY TEXTWALL BATMAN!

In a nutshell, I think math, technology, and science is as much a woman’s realm (if not more so) as a mans one. But society is getting further and further from realising that potential.

Yeah I misspoke, I should have said "prominent" rather than "predominant" which is less to do with ability, there's no doubt women are capable of working in STEM fields indeed I agree that women are often more rational (at work) than men. The reason men tend to be on the cutting edge of innovation isn't that we're smarter it's because we aren't, we take stupid risks because in our minds it's not a matter of doing well, it's win or lose. If male engineers make a plane it has to be the fastest or the stealthiest or the most durable or have the highest payload capacity, something, anything, it has to be the best in some regard or otherwise what's the point? Which is stupid, the best fighter plane isn't necessarily the best in any particular regard it's the best overall including factors like cost/speed of manufacturing, pilot suitability/training and ease/cost of maintenance, things which get overlooked because male dominated fields suffer from male-specific blind spots, we know these are issues but solving them just doesn't excite us.

If STEM was dominated by women the same problem would occur but the blind spots would be different, designs might be too safe, too practical, while terrible yet useful ideas like JATO rockets wouldn't be considered, indeed the proverb "if it's stupid but it works then it's not stupid" might not even exist, for better or worse you decide

For the record, there’s certainly jobs that I don’t think women he a tendency for. The military. I can see no convincing evidence that women have ever really been interested in this, and I would argue that the few that are may be overcompensating for feelings of being the “lesser sex”. Heterosexual women. I can’t speak for other sex preferences. I don’t understand that topic very well and I cant find much information to go off of.

Well they don't call them "jarheads" without reason.

Other jobs that I think men are naturally better at : exploring (as you mentioned), manufacturing, martial arts and fighting disciplines, construction work, and most things involving a risk to ones person - as you mentioned.

In a barfight being big is helpful, in a fight between martial artists it's a liability, also when men fight each other it's a largely symbolic thing like we know we can really hurt each other and neither of us wants to make it a fight to the death so we avoid the obvious easy targets, women on the other hand tend to go straight for them. If I had to choose between going into a ring with a petite female MMA fighter and a male one twice my size I'd pick the latter without hesitation, the worst he's going to do is knock me out and if he knows he has me he'll likely just pin me and be done with it, a woman on the other hand, I shudder to think.

I honestly also thing that men are actually better at mindless, gruelling work - but I know that’s not a nice thing to say...I’m not trying to make out that men are stupid - I don’t believe that - but I think women are less tolerant to prolonged physical labour if they feel it’s not goal orientated. Women seem to think a lot more when they work like that, and if you overthink it, you have a tendency to get bitter and resentful about it. Men seem to be more likely to just suck it up and follow orders.

As I've been saying we're wired to enjoy following orders, naturally those orders would come from the women of the tribe and be along the lines of "we need more food" or "go get fire wood" or "there's a bear nearby go convince it to leave". Hence why we're naturally pliable and kinda stupid, I mean what sane person actually thinks antagonizing a bear is a good idea? Well if there's a girl you fancy and you want to impress her...

But religion has hijacked this natural willingness to follow orders to create a hierarchy separate from the tribe in order to subjugate the tribe, or more specifically to get young men to raid and terrorize neighboring tribes to obtain honor/prestige/rank within the hierarchy so they can force themselves upon women (supported by their male peers) and thus the cycle continues.

Spoiler

Political ideology is not unlike religion indeed the two are seldom far apart.

The reason I say “mindless”, is just because I know there’s a large population of women that are farm girls and things. If the work is something that aligns to a goal like achieving something for the family, I think that women are pretty good at sucking it up and getting it done. But they’re not necessarily good, from what I can tell, at following orders due to respecting the hierarchy. Men seem to have a lot more respect for station.

In almost every religion women are regarded as man's lesser counterpart, lacking in moral fortitude and perhaps even unclean in some ineffable way, have you ever pondered why? It's propaganda, it's besmirching the character of the enemy, as I've already explained rapists of a religious bent believe themselves to be enacting rightful punishment upon their victims. I put it to you that this punishment is doled out for the crime of challenging the hierarchy's authority, for reminding men whose opinions actually matters to them.

This stance of yours interests me. Most men claim to hate being told what to do and they complain that their partners “nag” them to do basic things like take out the trash. (Do you really need someone to nag you for that? I pity your wife.)

They resent being told what to do because they've been brainwashed to believe that it is the woman who should follow their orders, that a true man is a dominant man, that the 1950's Mr AlwaysRight husband is the ideal they should aspire to. The problem as you've rightly identified isn't the nagging it's that they shouldn't need to be nagged, you have men who are perfectly capable of living alone (i.e. taking out the trash) who devolve into man-children the moment they're married. Of course I'm generalizing, this isn't always the case and I'm sure some women nag because they have unreasonable expectations but I think overall these are the exceptions to the general rule.

I think, generally, women do adopt the bossy role - but I think it’s often due to the male’s complete lack of input. In a house, things need to be fixed, children need to get their homework done and maintain a routine, and groceries need to be stocked. Most men don’t want to keep track of things like that and, indeed, it can be very difficult if not somewhat impossible if you work all day. So the only person left to keep track of those things and make sure they get done is the wife.

When playing Minecraft collaboratively with other people you'll find they tend to fall into one of two roles, builders and gatherers, it's because it's simply more practical to specialize rather than for everyone to try to do everything themselves. In this context women are the builders, the one focused on the details of the task at hand, while the men are the gatherers, tasked with acquiring the resources required by the builders which necessarily means they follow the orders given to them because how else will they know what the builders need?

If someone cooks then it's the other person's job to get the food, if someone cleans then it's the other person's job to supervise the kids, it's no mistake that women are better at knowing what needs to be done and men are (naturally) good at following orders without question even if the task is dull, dirty or dangerous.

Do you mean that single women should be more open, or that women in a relationship should be more loving?

Both ideally, there's a bit of a catch 22 in that because men are starved of affection any display of affection they do receive is overly meaningful because for many men the only time a woman shows them any kind of affection is when it's an invitation to have sex. In what is the most painful irony in the universe men who get a lot of sex and therefore a lot of affection become less neurotic which makes them more attractive and thus they get more affection while those that don't spiral into confusion and resentment.

Lately, I’ve had a look at my last very bad relationship, and i’ve been kind of taking a look at some other relationships I would consider dysfunctional, and what I’ve found sort of disturbs me.

It seems like women who are more forth coming with their love and approval end up being treated more poorly.

Because the men who are receiving it misinterpret why they're receiving it, they take it as affirmation that they've somehow become better than other men, that they've gained a higher rung on the hierarchy and therefore they're receiving the love and affection that only a big tough three star general alpha male paladin of god deserves.

Oh shit I'm having relationship problems I must solve this by being EVEN MORE MANLY!!! Huh, why da fuck did she leave me?

Or worse Stockholm Syndrome sets in and... yeah.

I have a neighbor who told me that men love to feel like men, so you should ask them to do manly things and not just do them yourself, (which is tempting, because it’s often easier than getting a guy to do something), and then you should give them positive feedback that makes them feel masculine. “Thank you for that, I could have done it but holding the power washer up like for a long time is harder for me because I’m not as strong as you are.” Things like that.

Yes but also no, you shouldn't have to degrade yourself like that nor use sex as a bargaining chip, unfortunately you can't solve the problem by changing how you approach it because the problem isn't with you it's the wrongheaded notions that the guy has had drummed into him all his life.

And she would also do sweet things like absentmindedly sort of “pet” her husbands biceps. Shes quite an attractive woman. He’s a tall, big guy, but I wouldn’t say he’s particularly macho. He’s more shy, sweet, quiet, and reserved...but even so, he doesn’t treat her well. He criticizes her over missing the tiniest spot on the counter of her perfectly clean house, requires her to maintain the house, yard, and handle all the food (despite the fact that she also has a job - they have no kids), and won’t let her friends visit because it’s “his house”. Her name isn’t even on the deed, I don’t think.

I used to make a point of telling my boyfriend that I appreciated that he worked really hard, that I thought he was really intelligent, and that he was much stronger than most of the guys out there’s and far more brave.

He also didn’t respect my opinion, would criticise my appearance and my job cleaning (despite saying that I was the only girlfriend who knew how to clean and he appreciated how I would stick to it until it was perfect), and basically told me that if we ever got married, the house and everything in it would belong to him, that every man saw it that way (including my father), that I was basically just living in it and I was lucky to have someone provide for me... -_-

I'm torn between wanting to hit him and feeling really sorry for him.
Breaking up with him is really the best thing you can do for him but it's no guarantee that he will come around and even if you explain all this to him it's going to be an uphill battle for him to truly understand and internalize it.

He once told me that the reason he never complimented me was because it would go to my head. He was also a fan of telling me repeatedly that I was illogical, I had no idea what I was talking about, my research didn’t count because I didn’t have a degree from a prestigious school like his, and he once told me that’s I was too stupid to read, because I wouldn’t understand what I read and get bad ideas.

He's been brainwashed to consider you inferior, heck even my earlier slip up was likely due to the fact that I still haven't rid myself of all the nonsense my head has been filled with.

It’s only recently come to my attention that there is this pattern - but the more I look into it, the more it seems to be a thing.

I even remember that when Allie broke up with her boyfriend, and I broke up with mine, we actually had a conversation about how we felt like we’d been too nice, too loving, and not assertive enough. We considered the marriages we’d known and came to the mutual conclusion that women that make it work...they’re kind of bitchy.

They boss their mates around, rarely demonstrate affection, and are sometimes even manipulative or dishonest because they want their kids and husband to believe certain things or act a certain way. But they make things work, and have solid, stable households, and solid, stable families.

On the other side of the fence I talk to men my age who are essentially too scared to commit to marriage because they don't want their girlfriend to turn into a bossy bitch, heck that's how my last relationship ended, although to be fair she was Filipina and they're fucking crazy. She kept accusing me of cheating on her, being alternatively sickly sweet and aggressive, she would use sex as a bargaining chip, she hated me having friends or going anywhere without her and she thought being jealous was a way of showing affection.

The few instances I’ve known where men sort of “ruled the roost”, their kids ended up hating them, their wife ended up being like a timid mouse, and often times there was abuse. Especially verbally.

I’m not saying that’s the rule of thumb. That’s just what I’ve observed of the marriages I’ve known.

Yup I've seen that first hand, the stepfather mentioned earlier.

But it bothered me a lot. Allie went on to date a guy that was younger than her and she’s a bit colder and less naive now. I just don’t date anymore. If I had to be assertive and aggressive in a relationship...I would feel like I’m not being myself. I like to be supportive, encouraging, and very, very loving. I see contributing to a relationship as something of a moral obligation that takes daily effort.

I guess all you can do is communicate, tell a guy you want to be loving but he's got to respect you and that it's okay to be told what to... hmm yeah that's going to be an uphill battle. I don't know how to fix this.

Could it be that what men really want/need is the sense of striving for approval/affection? That once they get these things, they feel like the king of the hill, and like they now have a hierarchical status that demands that’s others behave a certain way towards them, to include sharing their philosophies, following their directions, and so forth?

Yes but the whole hierarchical thing is a cultural meme, perpetuated by relig-
No! no! Must resist becoming a caricature of myself.

 

[Cognisant]

There's so much more I want to unpack here but it's 12:30am and I have work tomor- err today.

 

[Inexorable Username]

This conversation is fascinating o_o

Well they don't call them "jarheads" without reason.

What’s the reason? I never got that actually.

in a fight between martial artists it's a liability,

My sleep-deprived self read this as “a fight between marital artists”. XD

symbolic thing like we know we can really hurt each other and neither of us wants to make it a fight to the death so we avoid the obvious easy targets, women on the other hand tend to go straight for them.

Interesting. I didn’t realize men actively thought about that. Other mammals in the animal kingdom are like that, but I had a tendency to assume that male humans just fight as aggressively as possible.

If I had to choose between going into a ring with a petite female MMA fighter and a male one twice my size I'd pick the latter without hesitation

Really? Don’t you think that’s a bit of an exaggeration? I mean. You would know better than I. It’s only recently really come to my understanding just how much men know about fighting. That sounds stupid - but it’s the D-K affect. You don’t know what you don’t know when you don’t know enough about something to...well I think you got my gist.

I recently heard a guy talk about the hints he thinks of - just from assessing another guy’s body language, and it blew my mind.

Mistakenly, I think, I’ve gotten the idea in the past that men just don’t actively think much in generic life circumstance, as that women “overthink” everything. Listening to him talk, I started to appreciate that men think quite a lot - but they’re not necessarily thinking about what you’re saying. They think about things like situational awareness and body movement...
Would you say this is accurate?

But religion has hijacked this natural willingness to follow orders to create a hierarchy separate from the tribe in order to subjugate the tribe, or more specifically to get young men to raid and terrorize neighboring tribes to obtain honor/prestige/rank within the hierarchy so they can force themselves upon women (supported by their male peers) and thus the cycle continues.

That’s actually a very interesting concept. I’ll have to think on that some.

My gut reaction is that (A) I think your right that makes having hierarchy over females isn’t natural. Almost none of the mammals I’ve read about demonstrate this. Also, almost none of them seem to have the intergender aggression that humans seem to possess. It doesn’t make sense, really.

but (B) I think that it would be remarkably if most men responsible for the dogma of religions had ulterior motives in mind when they created religion.

It seems unlikely...but then again - I wasn’t born back then. Life was a lot more dangerous and it was often the case that only the strong survived, so maybe you’re right.

But I think what goes wrong here with things like religion is that it doesn’t take that many bad apples to poison the basket. Too often, we take pre-existing philosophies as true, and build on them. The issue with that is that if the foundation is faulty, everything that comes thereafter cannot be regarded as solid.

So, take a philosopher like Neitzche, for instance. A person like that can heavily influence the philosophies of many (men) that come after him. But if Neitzche’s fundamentals were incorrect, then we’re building based on assumptions that are wrong. The same is true for Darwin.

I don’t think either of these men are “at fault”, though. However, I do think the people who chose to add to those concepts without first entertaining the notion that they are likely wrong, are at fault.

I think this is where philosophy went when it died. It seems like philosophers used to be happy to question the status quo, and challenge preconceived notions, and from that, new philosophical ideas were born.

But these days...going back to that sense of hierarchy - that sense of blindly following orders - here again, we have a tendency to just blindly follow the beliefs of people we perceive to have status. “Oh, it’s Neitzche, the father of whatever. You can’t question the father.”

What baffles me is why anyone would think those people WERE right. In that - how likely is it that someone was able to guess everything perfectly? It seems very likely that in some aspects, these people are probably wrong. Which ones? How many things are wrong?

I feel like all we have to do to analyze that is to look at the information we have and see if we know any better. That is what people aren’t willing to do...or more so - that seems to be something that people consider “too much effort”. Not fast enough to satisfy them.

I think technology greatly depleted our ability to exercise patience with these things.

In almost every religion women are regarded as man's lesser counterpart, lacking in moral fortitude and perhaps even unclean in some ineffable way, have you ever pondered why?

You have no idea how often I’ve wondered that XD....
Have you noticed the theme with curiosity too? Pandora, eve. Women who unleash the horrors of the world by being too curious.

That’s bothered me a lot of some fundamental level - the idea that curiosity is “sinful” - because I am insatiably curious, but I do find that there’s ways I don’t mix well with people, so I’ve wondered in the past whether it could be my curiosity that doesn’t fit well into the species. That would be depressing because I don’t feel like that’s something I’m willing to sacrifice. I’ve sacrificed it before when I’ve felt particularly down-trodden, but it always makes me feel miserable and dead inside.

I put it to you that this punishment is doled out for the crime of challenging the hierarchy's authority, for reminding men whose opinions actually matters to them.

I think it could be some form of authoritative punishment...and you may be right about the opinion part...

But I’m still on the fence about that philosophy. If men care so much about a woman’s opinion, why don’t they like when women talk?

When I care about someone’s opinion - I want more information, not less.

I don’t think it’s an insecurity thing either, because I’ve dated some pretty cocky guys in the past and they’ve also didn’t want to converse with women.

Maybe we’re being too generalized about the word “opinion”. Perhaps what men really are seeking from women is affirmation. They have an ideal in their head that they aspire to, but the only thing, or most important thing they sense they need in order to achieve that end design, is that women want to have sex with them.

Perhaps men think “I want to be this kind of guy, and that kind of guy...and I want all women to want to have sex with me.”

I can understand that point of view. I secretly want all men to want to have sex with me...(although, not really. Not in the sense where they actively want to - because that can be tedious, destructive, and it can really interfere with my life/happiness...but I of course want people to think I’m screwable IF they notice me. I’d prefer not to be noticed by stranger, first and foremost.)

But I don’t think it really goes much deeper than that. Though I could easily be wrong. Do you think I’m wrong? I’m more than happy to be wrong if that’s the case. Guys aren’t usually so candid with me so I never know. Gleaning information from you people is like trying to milk a rock.

Well not YOU people. Not you INTP people. I only appreciated recently that your kind existed.

men who are perfectly capable of living alone (i.e. taking out the trash) who devolve into man-children the moment they're married.

Yeah...I’ve definitely noticed that one. It doesn’t usually bother me that much, because it’s nice to feel needed...but it bothers me when there’s no appreciation given for the effort. Or when men don’t ask properly - they just order. That’s something that’s never quite flown with me. I don’t appreciated being commanded like a dog.

Although it’s weird...because some men have expressed to me beforehand that they wish I would just say something straight foreword - like “Get off the phone.” Instead of “Do you know how much longer you’ll be on the phone?”

But it’s so hard for me to think in those terms because it feels so rude.

SometimesI think the stereotypical ways the sexes think differently can be pretty entertaining. I have a funny anecdote on that - But I’ll restrain myself for your sake.

In this context women are the builders, the one focused on the details of the task at hand, while the men are the gatherers, tasked with acquiring the resources required by the builders which necessarily means they follow the orders given to them because how else will they know what the builders need?

That’s quite a good analogy. I think you’re right about that.

many men the only time a woman shows them any kind of affection is when it's an invitation to have sex

Really? That’s sad. Although...what of an invitation to be friends? Or get to know each other in some context? Would you say that they’re deprived of that as well...or that maybe part of the reason they feel they only receive affection when they receive an invitation for sex...is that said invitation is the only think they want to receive?

Whereas the other things they receive - like invitations to talk, or form a friendship - are things they don’t want, so they just disqualify them as signs of affection.

In what is the most painful irony in the universe men who get a lot of sex and therefore a lot of affection become less neurotic which makes them more attractive and thus they get more affection while those that don't spiral into confusion and resentment.

I used to think that too...but actually, I feel like I’m starting to realize it’s not. Maybe. It seems to me that the men who have sex with a lot of women become successively crappier people. More arrogant, more willing to objectify women...etc.

There does seem to be a certain kind of personality type - a sort of happy-go-lucky guy who loves life and the living things in it, that can have quite a lot of sex and still be a decent person about it.

But I think that most men who receive too much attention follow the pattern of most women who receive too much attention - they turn into jerks.

Contrarily, there’s been a number of times where I’ve felt attracted to a guy who was not your typical “masculine” type. The boys at DEFCON, for instance - I found their shyness to be attractive. It made me feel special and beautiful, and it made me feel like - here’s a person who might actually think of me as “that girl”. The “only girl”.

Most men just size me up by my cup size, my weight, my face, and if they’ve get to know anything about me beyond that, my ability to socialise and understand pop culture. Or my fashion sense.

Then I get a number stamped on my forehead and I eat lined up next to other models that might have something preferable - like red hair.

I’m going off on a tangent here...but the point is, what makes those female-timid men more attractive is the fact that they don’t see me and think “Just another’s fish in the sea”...but that attitude of complacency is what happens to most people when a thing becomes commonplace. Take murder, for example. You murder enough, and it’s not “special” anymore

that they've gained a higher rung on the hierarchy and therefore they're receiving the love and affection that only a big tough three star general alpha male paladin of god deserves.

Oh shit I'm having relationship problems I must solve this by being EVEN MORE MANLY!!! Huh, why da fuck did she leave me?

Haha! You crack me up.

I mean...I wish that I could give someone that level of self-esteem, without them demonstrating poor character. The ideal would be for a person to be able to have that confidence, and STILL respect me for being their mate, and for having admirable qualities of my own.

But what that basically boils down to is just that quite a lot of men don’t respect women I think...but more than that - they really believe that it’s not manly to do so.

I disagree. There’s nothing more manly than respect for women. To me, it demonstrates high levels of intelligence, analytical abilities, wisdom, EQ, self-esteem, confidence, and probably most importantly - in a man especially - a healthy dose of heroism.

What I love the most about the male sex is the courage, and willingness to sacrifice oneself for ones values. I’ve always deeply admired courage. Favourite poem - Invictus. It’s on of the few preferences I have that has never changed. (That, and macaroni and cheese. God help me.)

So many men seem to think courage is somehow...outdated these days? A lot of men seem to think that being cunning is better. Oh well. I would rather have a courageous man than a cunning man. What does the ability to be cunning even mean if you’re not a good person? It just means you’re that much better at being a bad one.

I’ve always valued courage in myself, too. I try. I’m still afraid of vacuum cleaners. Such is life. No man nor beast exercises such control over my paranoid mind as the almighty vacuum cleaner.

In any case...I can’t see men who don’t respect women as being heroic or courageous. If you’re so insecure that you need to feel like you’re above the female sex - which, from what I can tell, isn’t unnatural in the animal kingdom to begin with - then how are you going’s to have the confidences to stand by your beliefs? And you’re not about to risk your neck for someone you don’t respect.

Thoughts.

I'm torn between wanting to hit him and feeling really sorry for him.
Breaking up with him is really the best thing you can do for him but it's no guarantee that he will come around and even if you explain all this to him it's going to be an uphill battle for him to truly understand and internalize it.

Join the club! Haha!
In all honesty, I gave up on wanting him to come around. He’s a pretty crappy person with a lot of damage. I think ignore he ever realized it, it would really eat him up inside, and it still makes me feel sick and sad to think of him being upset. My emotions can’t handle it.

I’d rather he just remain ignorant and finding some woman who can either handle it, or handle him accordingly, so he’s not alone in life.

that I still haven't rid myself of all the nonsense my head has been filled with.

I feel you there. I don’t think I’ll ever rid myself of the generization that was pressed upon me by society - and I was a hermit, whose parents didn’t genderize. So you would think it would be easier - but nope.

She kept accusing me of cheating on her, being alternatively sickly sweet and aggressive, she would use sex as a bargaining chip, she hated me having friends or going anywhere without her and she thought being jealous was a way of showing affection.

You sound like you were in a equally dysfunctional relationship. The withholding sex thing...I get that on two fronts. Some women use it because they feel like it’s the only authority they have. Some women, like myself, just can’t mentally be sexual if the relationship is sucking atm.

Accusing you of cheating though - that’s downright offensive, and not letting you go out with your friends on your own - that’s mean and controlling.

I’ve been alternatively sweet and aggressive. That’s usually when my world isn’t falling apart and I’m really struggling in the relationship, but I keep convincing myself that ignorant I just try harder I can change things with a positive attitude.

That’s one of those “society did it to you” things. Growing up as a girl, I feel like I was brainwashed to believe that whether or not my relationships work is entirely up to me. And that’s if my feelings aren’t hurt, the best I can do is ignore it and try to be a pleasant person to be around.

That worked for me in various aspects of life - but not in relationships. That’s like the instruction manual for how to be a doormat.

But I could never master the “be undyling sweet” thing, because I’m too honest. Eventually it sort of seeps out of me. And all it really takes at that point is a minor little insult to make me get snarly, because there’s not much tenacity left at that point.

I’m not saying that’s her...but if she’s was genuinely jealous and not just faking it, it may have been. Jealous women are pretty desperate and convinced that they, themselves, are unloveable - so they need to control and trick people into loving them.

... hmm yeah that's going to be an uphill battle. I don't know how to fix this.

Not sure that anyone can. It’s not really a concern for me at this point. I feel like I was born to be a loner, and that’s makes me happy, actually. I’m generally not unhappy unless someone gives me explicit reasons to be unhappy.

Yes but the whole hierarchical thing is a cultural meme, perpetuated by relig-
No! no! Must resist becoming a caricature of myself.

Haha. Well phrased.

I think that human dominance still exists...I just don’t think that it’s as aggressive as we seem to think it is. Or as totalitarian.

It seems to be me that some people tend to assume higher levels of responsibility - not just for others, but for themselves. They hold themselves to a high standard, they constantly try to improve, they have confidence because they have conviction in their ability to succeed...and probably, most importantly, they instill trust and loyalty in others.

That’s when people tend to be fairly agreeable, I think, and that’s when dominance maybe comes into play a bit.

If you take someone who does nothing but watch soap operas all day, and place them with someone who is at peak physical fitness and has advanced philosophical concepts - I bet the person who seeks to entertain themselves would naturally follow the person who spends their time on self-improvement and striving for things.

It would follow that the latter would have more of an understanding of the world, so they have a better chance of making the right decisions.

I’ve never actually thought about it that way until just now - that’s what my mind does under the influences of stimulating conversations.

But I think that makes a lot of sense. I think people have a natural inclination to follow the person they feel has “the answers”. And some people - most people - don’t to assume such a burden. They would rather just live life by their own terms, and band together with a pack that’s can see them through the tough stuff.

Women do probably tend to be more like that then men.

 

[The Grey Man]

You keep talking about these awful men that don't value life and tend to think of women as objects, but I don't see how one can value life or avoid thinking of women as objects. Certainly, insofar as a woman is an independent substance possessing certain attributes, I cannot but think of her as an object in one sense or another, if I am to think of her at all; and by what right can I decide what life is worth, given that all my experiences of what is good presuppose that I am alive to experience them? Or is there a way to know the Good besides mere lived experience?

You also advise us to rectify our failure to empathize with women by being friends with them, but—what?! Am I supposed to wave a magic wand and conjure an abundance of personal relationships out of thin air? Is it 'entitled' to want affection from a woman despite having no emotional attachments to anyone outside my family?

Overall, I found reading this thread very unsettling because you don't seem to distinguish between malicious misogynists and men who have no female friends simply because they have no friends of any kind. It makes me wonder if the one is indiscernible from the other.

 

[crippli]

I shouldn't be thinking about this because I should be focusing on mundane stuff. But sometimes I think I'm not in control of my own brain. Scary thought.

Anyways.

I've been thinking about rape fantasies, and murder fantasies, and other dark fantasies that humans entertain. We don't really want to experience these things or their consequences, but we still wonder about them. Some of the fantasies are more visual, others, more psychological or analytical.

But fantasies and imaginative exercises are excellent tools for considering the very worst that can happen, and how we would handle those situations. I've talked to people for instance who have imagined what they would do/how they would feel if they were accused of committing murder, or what they would do/how they would feel if their significant other burned to death. We have these dark thoughts, from what I can tell, because they speak to deep, deep fears that we can't quite understand, but must process, should these events occur in our lives. It's almost like a way of programming the brain of how to handle errors of processing. Of course, when they're of a sexual nature, they can also cause arousal and sexual confusion in a person - in particular, if someone has been abused as a child. I don't think that's genuine arousal - more of a defensive biological reaction - but maybe that's a thought for another time. I bring it up because I mentioned it in one of my recent replies. There's this idea out there that women fantasize about rape, and I've found that to be true, but at the same time, no woman (none that I've found, at least), would ever, ever want to be raped - it's one of the worst, most humiliating acts a person can suffer through. Men more often, from my own experiences, seem to fantasize about murder. But the men I've talked to on the subject also voice that they would never want to be put in that situation, and that their only objective would be to try to figure out how to escape it safely.

At any rate...could it be that these fears we have are biologically born into us? Murdering, and being murdered, are things that civilized societies rarely have to worry about, but older societies certainly did. Rape as well, I think, is probably less common (although it's still quite a bit more common than most people think, from what I can tell).

Could it be that fearing these things has been genetically programmed into us? And therefore, that imagining these fears, and mentally processing them, as well as finding appropriate feelings to feel in regards to them, is a function of our body trying to establish brain patterns that could be useful should the worst come to the worst?

What I've learned from people who fantasize about the worst case scenarios, is that they usually win in the end. At least, in a sense. It seems that people imagine ways in which they could succeed in said scenario, and sustain the least amount of damage possible. Deep instincts and logical thought help us to analyze which courses of action lead to the end result we think. Then, by repeatedly processing that information, and drawing that conclusion, we can train ourselves to think and react in such a way that would make us more successful, if we were to be thrown into such a circumstance.

My belief is that api-genetics have programmed fears into us that were among the most relevant, and most destructive potentials in our history. A particularly superstitious or spiritual person might even say that these thoughts process experiences from past lives we have lived...

Just thoughts. I need to go do things now. Seems to me I had stuff on a piece of paper that was supposed to dictate how my evening would unfold. I must bow to the paper. Goodbye, all.

 

[crippli]

I think it may be an element of our society. As it is, it's safe. So danger is sought. I do extreme sports. And have no need for rape and murder fantasies when 'IRL'. In fact i'd stay far away from such people. As I prefere to not be in danger when I expect not to be.

 

[Inexorable Username]

You keep talking about these awful men that don't value life and tend to think of women as objects, but I don't see how one can value life or avoid thinking of women as objects. Certainly, insofar as a woman is an independent substance possessing certain attributes, I cannot but think of her as an object in one sense or another, if I am to think of her at all; and by what right can I decide what life is worth, given that all my experiences of what is good presuppose that I am alive to experience them? Or is there a way to know the Good besides mere lived experience?

You also advise us to rectify our failure to empathize with women by being friends with them, but—what?! Am I supposed to wave a magic wand and conjure an abundance of personal relationships out of thin air? Is it 'entitled' to want affection from a woman despite having no emotional attachments to anyone outside my family?

Overall, I found reading this thread very unsettling because you don't seem to distinguish between malicious misogynists and men who have no female friends simply because they have no friends of any kind. It makes me wonder if the one is indiscernible from the other.

I'm going to just do the last paragraph for now, because I think your questions raise very interesting points worthy of discussion, but your second paragraph - with the use of italics, and the magic wand, and the 'entitled' in singular quotes, appear to be decorations of sensitivity - and it might have been that I was rude or that my words were misleading. I'm going to go on that assumption here, and elaborate on your third paragraph honestly, in hopes to clear the air.

So. I'm not sure if I used the word mysoginist. If so, I probably meant to say "sexist" - at least, going by the context you're talking about. Yes, there are some men who I think actually hate women - but I don't think that's all that common. Those are potentially the people who would be rapists. Real life rapists - mind you. Not men who have rape fantasies...I think a person can't/shouldn't be judged by their sexual fantasies.

The philosophy of the "men and women can't be friends" thing, or that women aren't enjoyable to talk to, or really to be around - these things are sexism, to me, not misogyny. Essentially, those people are descriminating against females based on derogatory beliefs. But that's very different from hating a person. I could discriminate against a dog by thinking that the dog is less intelligent than me, and isn't worth spending my time or money on. That doesn't mean I hate the dog. If I hated the dog I might want to beat the dog, or what not.

And I don't necessarily have a bone to pick with people that have sexually derogatory beliefs, either. I've had perfectly peaceful interactions with men that I know think I'm stupid. If they do me no harm, and live their life in a moral fashion - I don't consider them to be a bad person. A misguided person, perhaps, because my beliefs are different. But bad? No. The simple fact that someone may have hurt my feelings because of what they believe does not make that person a bad person.

As for having no friends - I, myself, have no friends. Well - okay. I have two. One lives states away from me and we barely ever talk because I don't generally talk on the phone as I think it's a waste of time...and the other - I grew up with, and she's the same sex as me.

I don't think that you HAVE to have female friends to be able to learn to empathize with females and understand how females think/feel. In fact, I think, probably, that's a very basic approach to gaining the necessary knowledge to exercise empathy. That's only one woman. You would need the accounts of many, many women to begin to form generalizations. It's a start though.

However, what I do think is that if men aren't willing to be friends with women - they're going to find it pretty difficult to get a date. If the same man is also heavily isolated - it's probably going to be that much harder - because this person doesn't know many people, or meet many people, so the very few women he encounters are going to have to be okay with his mindset that men and women can't be friends - and this is, I think, personally, statistically very unlikely. Most women he meets are going to have higher expectations than that. Or else...probably, most women that he would want to sleep with. In truth, there's almost always a woman for every man, but men tend to only want women that fit certain criteria. So the women who would have been responsive to them get ignored.

At the risk of....sounding offensive...and I truly hope you don't take it that way - because I'm being completely honest when I say that no offense is meant, and no contempt is felt -
but, yes. It is, in a way, entitled to want affection from someone without wanting to have to give it. I'm assuming you mean physical affection - if you didn't, then I'm mistaken and I apologize.

But yes, if you want physical affection from someone, but you don't want to give them an emotional connection, then you are essentially wanting to be able to use that person physically for your pleasure and self-affirmation, but not give them what they're looking for in return. Men and women both crave affection, but I think, potentially, in different ways. Many men seem to crave physical affection, many women, emotional affection. To want to get something for nothing - that's entitlement.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@The Grey Man

Please don't take that the wrong way though. Don't think I'm sitting here behind this computer screen thinking you're somehow some kind of loser or bad person. I've felt entitled before. It can be an easy thing to feel. I also know how easy it is to overly objectify when one isolates - I do this a lot. I can't think badly of you without thinking badly of myself, and I don't think badly of myself. We're just humans. We have feelings.

But if your objective is to have a relationship with a female, then the feeling of entitlement is not conducive to that result. I can demonstrate this with fairly decent rationality even, I think:

- Person A is willing to share with me a total of 3 cheese doodles if I share with them my three M&Ms.
- Person B is only willing to share 1 cheese doodle with me, but would like to receive 4 M&Ms in return.
- Person C is not willing to share any cheese doodles, but would like to receive all of my M&Ms.

With whom should I share my M&Ms?

That is the world of dating - for both men, and women. Some women are person C, and they feel entitled to a man's gifts and money. It's not okay that woman C feels that entitlement. She needs to learn to share, or not ask to receive. Likewise, some men are person C. They wan't a woman to share all of her body with them, but they do not want to give any of their heart.

In the world of dating, where people have options, no healty-minded, rational individual, is going to choose person C. Many may settle for person B, if that's all that's available, but most will strive to get as closet to person A as possible - and they might end up with two cheese doodles out of it.

At the end of the day, if you aren't willing to share your heart with someone, then that's okay too. Sexual gratification and human relationships are not the sole road to happiness. Honestly, I think they're often kind of the road to misery...lol. Obviously, not for everyone - and they can bring a person a lot of joy.

But in any case, if you are a person who aspires to be alone, and feels happy, healthy, and comfortable in your loneliness...well, then - no, you really should want to have other people too. Either choice is a sacrifice, but a person needs to decide which sacrifice is the one that suits them.

 

[Inexorable Username]

And have no need for rape and murder fantasies when 'IRL'

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean, you entertain these thoughts/fantasies online, but not when you're walking around in public?

If so, I think that would be pretty normal. I don't think that people usually fantasize about ancestral phobias when they're in social settings. I think it's more something that people will sometimes be curious about when they're on their own time, with their own thoughts.

Or you might mean that you don't identify with these fantasies at all - which I think is fine too. If it IS an epic-genetic thing, then person there were no real threats that posed enough of a phobia in your lineage to result in such a fixation.

As far as society being safe - well - I'm not a member of your society. I live in the US. I have no idea what things are like in your country. I know there's a spectrum though, or at least I think so, from what I've heard about Japan. Canadian and American women who lived there for years said that they never once felt threatened, which they were really shocked by.

As far as the US is concerned, for females though, I happen to know that it is a not a safe place, because I've heard a lot of female secrets.

But I also thought this study might be helpful. One of the things I find fascinating about the study is that it also suggests that raped people have a higher risk of developing asthma and joint problems. The study suggests that about 1 in 5 women surveyed admit to having been raped once in their lifetime. "rape was defined as completed or attempted penetration of the victim through the use or threats of physical force or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent"

Again, this is a study for the US. So your country may very well be safer.

Lifetime Economic Burden of Rape Among U.S. Adults - PMC

This study estimated the per-victim U.S. lifetime cost of rape. Data from previous studies was combined with current administrative data and 2011 U.S. National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey data in a mathematical model. Rape was ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's neat about the extreme sports thing ^^. I don't think I'm built to do sports, but I very much enjoy certain ones. I love volleyball, tennis, and basketball - all of which I suck at. I also love golf, and pool - neither of which count. I used to ski and snowboard...that I really loved. And I used to scuba dive - but of all the opportunities I've had to be extreme in these things, I've passed up most. I think I stopped being an extreme sports kind of girl by the age of 8 XD
I could be a bit of a nutcase as a kid. Sometimes, I'm shocked I made it this far.

I definitely think that extreme sports are a consequence of boredom/restlessness. Because I've had many times in my life where I've gotten "wanderlust" and decided to irresponsibly take off to some other part of the country in my car, with my dog. I used to get antsy being in one place for too long.

I don't think my respect for danger has ever really impeded my tendency to feel restless, or feel the need to experience some kind of thrill. But then again, I don't really pre-fear. I'm more of the kind of person whereby fear will just "happen" to me when I least expect it, usually as a response to some kind of situation. Normally, I don't walk around in my life thinking people are going to jump out of the bushes and rape and murder me. Although - I have known women like that. >_> I've escorted them to their cars...lol.

If their is a god, he screwed it up. I think he meant to make me gay.

 

[Inexorable Username]

I'm also just not a bird-boned girl. I would say I have the shape and solidness of a clydesdale horse....lol. Whatever genetic strain produced me designed me to be capable of dealing with the consequences of my own stupidity. I've never broken a bone, and probably never will. I've also had very strong legs, and I've never really struggled much to carry my own things or lift heavy stuff like couches (with help, of course).

I don't have any arm muscles though :/
Once, I tried the weight lifting thing for maybe 2 months? And I THINK there might have been a hard thing in the vicinity of my bicep. You had to feel for it. But it was totally there. So not worth the two months of effort - screw that!

Yet I still go on free weight binges....XD
Oh well. I like to have them at my desk to work off busy thoughts or inconvinient emotions to just barely the brink of sweat - and then I desist...because. Ew. Gross.

Anyways, I understand and identify with some of the more consistent levels of fear some women feel - but it's just not something I often experience. I have a very naive idea in my head that I would be more trouble than I'm worth - at least, I hope so. Hopefully I wouldn't just chicken out. (It's very likely). But in any case, that certain degree of being unwise help me to live more freely, I think. I just don't spend a lot of time fretting about all of the potential consequences for my actions. I would say I'm wary though, and cautious, in that I just take certain sensible precautions, and I don't trust the strangers I meet to be good people. I assume they probably are, but its a risk management thing.

 

[crippli]

Extreme sports, as in a form of simplest form of free flight without engines. It's 95% psychological. Doesn't require physicality. But imo psychological strength is a function of physical strength. So to stay alive/ mostly uninjured reasonable fitness may be advised. But it is a mind game. A bird is like a tiny physical thing, mostly. As we are not. So one compensate, to be able to do, what one should not be able to.

There are cities here too. And as dangerous as every other city at night.

I suppose these(rape/murder) are more normal thoughts for people who are/want to be/need to be in relationships to have. Perhaps even a age/hormone thing.

I probably had them(the thoughts) as well when I was a teenager, or too busy dodging them to not have time to think much about it.

I think everyone has a certain need for adventure and danger, and hopefully most have, or at some point is able to, direct in what form the dose is ingested. If so, then stuff are normally neither dangerous, or extreme, regardless. The less knowledge, the more danger. And of course, avoiding the prison of the past. As is perhaps the greatest danger of it all.

Interesting posts though. Thanks for indulging my curiosity. But this is a little heavy for me. So I doubt I will dip my toes deeper then I already have.

 

[The Grey Man]

- Person A is willing to share with me a total of 3 cheese doodles if I share with them my three M&Ms.
- Person B is only willing to share 1 cheese doodle with me, but would like to receive 4 M&Ms in return.
- Person C is not willing to share any cheese doodles, but would like to receive all of my M&Ms.

With whom should I share my M&Ms?

I don't have any cheese doodles that I'm not willing to share, but if no one wants my cheese doodles because I'm not already spreading them around willy-nilly, I don't see how it makes a difference. Your illustration of dating is simple enough, but like all such metaphors, it is an inadequate representation of what it schematizes. I don't want to make a deal to end all deals. I hate that people these days assume that everything has to fit into some prudent utilitarian economic scheme, in which everything has value inasmuch as it produces happiness (whatever that is). I just want to give someone my cheese doodles. What else am I supposed to do? Accumulate money, retire, and wait till I die? Why don't you just shoot me now and get it over with?

Maybe I'm not thinking clearly. There was a time when I thought I could be alone with my head in the books of long dead philosophers forever, but I don't know how much longer I can do this. I can no longer believe that wisdom can be captured by logical arguments or trapped in abstract formulae. All metaphors are inadequate. All involve the irreconcilable difference between the speaker and the word.

All creatures want to speak God in all their works; they all speak, as closely as they can, yet they cannot speak him. Whether they want to or not, whether it be painful or pleasant to them: they all want to speak God, and yet he remains unspoken.

My father, for better or worse, made me what I am today, but I know he is not my father, our father. Our father is all wrath, all love, not this rude flesh.

 

[Inexorable Username]

Interesting posts though. Thanks for indulging my curiosity. But this is a little heavy for me. So I doubt I will dip my toes deeper then I already have.

Sorry! I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Would love to indulge your curiosity sometime on more light-hearted subjects! Like game theory, for instance. Are you interested in that? I love it. I think it could bring a new era of learning to people.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@The Grey Man

So, I hope you don't run away thinking that I think I know everything. I know that I talk like that sometimes, but it's really just comes from an effort to try to be concise and honest in expressing my views.

but if no one wants my cheese doodles because I'm not already spreading them around willy-nilly, I don't see how it makes a difference.

Okay. Now I'm confused by my own cheese doodles. But I think you're saying here that...women wouldn't want to sleep with you (want your cheese doodles)...because you're not already sleeping with a bunch of women? (flippantly giving them away)

Is that what you meant? If not, can you clarify?

I don't want to make a deal to end all deals.

By this, I'm interpreting that you mean to say that you're looking to have a relationship with someone - but not necessarily have it be a serious thing. Is that correct?

I just want to give someone my cheese doodles. What else am I supposed to do? Accumulate money, retire, and wait till I die?

No, I think if you're dead, you won't get the satisfaction of giving your doodles away, even if someone takes them from you in the mortuary. Also, I'd hope you'd do more with your life than accumulate money. That sounds sad.

There was a time when I thought I could be alone with my head in the books of long dead philosophers forever, but I don't know how much longer I can do this. I can no longer believe that wisdom can be captured by logical arguments or trapped in abstract formulae.

I agree! Wisdom definitely can't be captured by logical arguments or expressed in abstract formulas. You hit the nail on the head there. The problem with logic and equations is that they are inherently limited by the input they receive. If you do not have all of the input that is necessary (which people seldom do), then you cannot expect to receive the right answer, even if there is nothing wrong with the formula, itself.

That is why, in my opinion, people who refuse to exercise empathy, or appreciate the significance of human emotion, are irrational. I believe that a person can be logical, but still be irrational. My thoughts on that are complicated though, and I don't want to bore you. In a nutshell, I see logic as linguistic math. In math, if something is rational, it means that it is a ratio. I think that mathematical definition is the purest definition of "rationality". It is to reason - to weigh and measure, to consider a ratio of the balance between one thing and another.

So a person can be very logical. They can use logic to input arguments and output True or False. But that is a rudimentary building block for human intelligence. In and of itself, logic means very little. It does not produce "the truth". It just produces a fact which can be used to find the truth.

To be rational, is to process the relationship between subjective realities, and that is where wisdom comes into play. Most of the philosophies we have are not "true", they are an expression of a wise person's realizations, following their rational processing of the information that was available to them. They are a useful shortcut. In most cases, at least, particularly when it comes to interpreting human nature.

All metaphors are inadequate. All involve the irreconcilable difference between the speaker and the word.

I used to get frustrated with metaphors but I have a newfound understanding for them.

See, what I like about metaphors, is that I believe the exact opposite of what you're saying. You say : " All involve the irreconcilable difference between the speaker and the world. " (I think you meant world, not word. But if you meant to be religious about it, correct me.)

And the feelings I've come to have about metaphors are that, in fact, they do a very good job of removing the speaker's subjective reality.

Consider this. If I tell you literally what I mean, and explain every detail of it, so there's no doubt as to exactly what I intended to say, why I felt that way, how I came to that conclusion...etc. - well then the information I'm giving you is highly colored by my subjective reality. I'm VERY guilty of this. It's why I'm so long-winded. I'm determined to be clear, and not to be misinterpreted.

But lately, I've become to appreciate something that I didn't appreciate before. When you give a person LESS information, they are able to interpret your information, I think, far more effectively - because they are able to apply their own subjective reality to it.

I've been learning that because of infographics. When I use infographics, diagrams, or illustrations to express myself, people seem to "get it" a lot better than when I write them a four page report. Their subjective experience is so different from mine, that if I try to lay out specific directions as to how I got to the conclusions I've drawn, they'll likely spend more time trying to process each, individual instruction, rather than processing the concept as the whole in their own way. A way that is reconciled with their own subjective reality.

Logic is interesting, because every argument you make in a logic could be valid, and yet the conclusion could still be untrue - and the case is the same in reverse. So if I give someone the conclusion, and challenge them to see if it is is true by creating their own arguments for, or against the conclusion - well now we are discussing the heart of the matter.

So, are metaphors lacking in information? Absolutely, I agree with what you said there. They're an abstraction of a concept, not the details of it. Like the picture on the front of the board game box, rather than the instruction manual on how to play the game. (Haha, another metaphor. Sorry...my humor is weird.)

BUT, I believe your conclusion is that metaphors are less effective than the alternative, because you believe them to be inadequate - and this I disagree with. Of course, you can make the verrryyy macro-philosophical argument that all speech is subjective, and inadequate...but of course, you and I are discussing. So it would seem that talking is not a wholly useless thing to do.

So if talking to one another is useful, then I believe that metaphors are one of the more practical ways of presenting information. The metaphor accounts for the fact that you may view "sexual relations" differently than I do. Or that we may have different relationships with words such as "happiness". Metaphors eliminate that problem by abstracting the concept, so you're able to use your subjective interpretation more than if I tried to force my own subjective beliefs upon you, by assaulting you with detailed explanations.

I'm happy you said something though, because I do believe that abstractions are useful, but the more I think about it, discuss it, and apply it to different scenarios - the more I will take it to heart...and that will help me a lot with my problems of being too long-winded.

Well, reading between the lines here...I sense that you're frustrated. I think it could be that you've learned all you can learn sitting in a room by yourself, pouring over philosophy. You've probably learned a great deal. But I almost feel like what you say suggests that, maybe, you've reached a point where in order to take that understanding further, you're going to have to reach out with the world, and engage with people.

Anyone with true wisdom has to do this. You cannot be wise without understanding people and hearing what they have to say. At least, I've not seen it happen - or read about it, ever. Even the most secluded of Buddhists monks has had humans with which to put their philosophical understandings into practice. Humans cannot exist in perfect isolation.

It almost sounds to me like your isolation has been having a psychological toll on you. Perhaps, its manifesting itself into the form of physical frustration/sexual frustration. That would make sense, because if you truly believe that you have absolutely no need for human contact, but your physical being disagrees - well, then I would think the body would find other ways to convince you to socialize. Kind of like when you refuse to believe you need food, so you ignore your hunger pains, so instead, your body gives you a food headache. I had fun with a comedy thing for a while about the brain and body...it's a relationship I find to be sort of hilarious.

Well, anyways. I'm most likely wrong to some degree - I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. I'll say this though. You and I probably struggle with some similar problems. I also can't see the need for people, and I have a tendency to ignore manifestations of said need. I could probably benefit from taking some of my own advice. Maybe I will do the video call that Peoplesuck has suggested. Seeing a new human face might be useful for me.

I don't live in a total bubble though. I talk to clients. I have two friends - one even lives near me. I frequently engage with family. It's a lot for me to handle, actually. I have a lot of social time management problems - and then, when I do socialize in public, a lot of strange things generally happen that I struggle to make sense of...and I inevitably get frustrated with just how subjective humans can be. Sorry. Humans People. See - I start to overly objectify too. I don't know why I have such a knee-jerk reaction of saying things like "humans", and "males" or "females". Or mammals. All of these terms...they suggest detachment from reality. I have a weird relationship with reality. Maybe...I'll write about that...

Oh. Sorry - I'm rambling. I don't even remember what my point was. Fuck....err.
Well - anyways. I like you. You're cool. I find your unconventional, sort of frustrated views to kind of be a bit of a relief. I should stop cursing. Sorry. It's impolite. I think I've been talking to too many men. Maybe I need to find a female to talk to...they don't like me much though. Well. They don't like me when I'm out of touch and getting overly...uhhh. Like - trapped in my head. Wordy. Excessively analytical. >_> I need to go....It was nice knowing you.

 

[Inexorable Username]

Do you suppose there's some way I can delete this forum topic, now that I've screwed it all up? >_>

 

[crippli]

Sorry! I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Would love to indulge your curiosity sometime on more light-hearted subjects! Like game theory, for instance. Are you interested in that? I love it. I think it could bring a new era of learning to people.

Actually. I do not believe in genetic phobies. In my reality, people are born without fear. So all fears can be deleted, since they are induced. But don't have much evidence to this. So not going to defend this pov. It may be wrong.

You mean. Study game theory. To understand people? I'm not sure I should study much more to try to figure people out. As is why I havent been foruming these last years. Only occasionally. Like now. Been out practising. If it's not too complicated we could try. Is that really a light hearted subject?

 

[Inexorable Username]

Sorry! I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Would love to indulge your curiosity sometime on more light-hearted subjects! Like game theory, for instance. Are you interested in that? I love it. I think it could bring a new era of learning to people.

Actually. I do not believe in genetic phobies. In my reality, people are born without fear. So all fears can be deleted, since they are induced. But don't have much evidence to this. So not going to defend this pov. It may be wrong.

You mean. Study game theory. To understand people? I'm not sure I should study much more to try to figure people out. As is why I havent been foruming these last years. Only occasionally. Like now. Been out practising. If it's not too complicated we could try. Is that really a light hearted subject?

I mean...I don’t know so much about “trying to figure people out” - at least, not in a deep way - more like, looking at the best ways people learn.

I think you’re right about most fears/phobias. Planes, spiders, clowns - I think that’s all learned behavior.

It’s not that difficult to back up your point on that front. You would just have to consider what babies are afraid of.

Babies aren’t afraid of rats, for instance. But they are afraid of loneliness, darkness, hunger, strangers. The real elemental, basic fears.

Then again, babies can’t understand complex social concepts because they lack language, physical development, and various cognitive abilities.

Still - I could see there being a decent argument to be made there.

 

[The Grey Man]

Okay. Now I'm confused by my own cheese doodles. But I think you're saying here that...women wouldn't want to sleep with you (want your cheese doodles)...because you're not already sleeping with a bunch of women? (flippantly giving them away)

Is that what you meant? If not, can you clarify?

If being friends with lots of women is a condition precedent for being intimate with one of them, then I'm screwed.

By this, I'm interpreting that you mean to say that you're looking to have a relationship with someone - but not necessarily have it be a serious thing. Is that correct?

If it's not serious, I don't see the point. Maybe that's part of the problem.

BUT, I believe your conclusion is that metaphors are less effective than the alternative, because you believe them to be inadequate - and this I disagree with. Of course, you can make the verrryyy macro-philosophical argument that all speech is subjective, and inadequate...but of course, you and I are discussing. So it would seem that talking is not a wholly useless thing to do.

I'm not saying that talking in general is useless. It has many uses. What I'm saying is that we can talk about "wisdom" until the cows come home, but "wisdom" is not wisdom any more than a book about mineralogy is a rock. Just as knowing a lot about rocks and extemporizing on their many classes and properties is not the same as having a rock in one's hand, so understanding theories about wisdom is not the same as being wise. Speaking and thinking can only get one so far.

 

[Inexorable Username]

I'm going to PM you instead of responding here, if that works for you

 

[crippli]

Babies aren’t afraid of rats, for instance. But they are afraid of loneliness, darkness, hunger, strangers. The real elemental, basic fears.

I meant newly born. I thought they just wanted to be fed. And one build from there. Create the fear for loneliness, darkness, hunger and strangers. And more complex fears after that.

 

[Inexorable Username]

Babies aren’t afraid of rats, for instance. But they are afraid of loneliness, darkness, hunger, strangers. The real elemental, basic fears.

I meant newly born. I thought they just wanted to be fed. And one build from there. Create the fear for loneliness, darkness, hunger and strangers. And more complex fears after that.

Babies? Hmm...well I don’t know that they fear darkness as much as they fear being alone. I know that in many cultures, mothers sleep with their babies, and I think the babies usually sleep the night through.

But fearing aloneness and strangers - I can say that’s a thing for babies, almost with a certainty. That’s why babies often cry quite a bit if you hand them to someone they don’t know. It can also take babies a little while to warm up to the father, because the only real “non-stranger” for new babies is the mother.

And babies are much more apt to cry if they wake up alone.

Another thing that babies and very small children fear, generally, are drastic changes to a person’s appearance. For instance, if you never wear lipstick, and then you wear dark lipstick, babies will sometimes do this thing where they freeze and give you a shocked stare and then start crying. Same can happen if a guy shaves his beard, or if you put your hood up.

I don’t think that’s learned behavior