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Functions: preference or real ability?

Do functions determine preference, ability or both?

  • Ability

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Preference

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • Both

    Votes: 11 68.8%
  • Other (explain in thread)

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16

redbaron

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To some, functions are preferential and are at best correlative to actual ability.

Ti-dominance means a personal preference for trying to analyze things independently and autonomously. it says nothing absolute - and certainly not externally in comparison to others - about someone's skill in doing so, even though of course we'd be surprised not to find a correlation.

~

To others, functions determine one's actual ability at particular tasks.

Thinking people make decisions based on logic, so the Introverted thinking function allows a person to categorize and analyze data. It is the ability to identify inconsistencies, know how things work and problem-solve.
Which do you think it is?
 

Hadoblado

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I think functions are both, but that type only describes preference and therefore *likely* ability.
 

StevenM

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Other.

I guess I have to explain.

Particularly the dominant, I believe the functions do have a quantitative value in ability. But it isn't what a person may think.

Because this is an INTP forum, a lot of people attribute the thinking function with intellectualism, which may definitely may be a comparable attribute. But when the thinking function strengthens in use, instead of increasing ability for the psyche, it instead actually hinders it.

When Jung described each of the functions, and as they grow in dominance, he didn't say they grant the individual special ability, but rather, as they grow in dominance, they handicap the user.

I underlined some key points from the quote below:

(III) PECULIARITIES OF THE BASIC PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS IN THE INTROVERTED ATTITUDE

1. Thinking

When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.

But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype, which, as such, has universal validity and everlasting truth. Its truth, however, is so universal and symbolic, that it must first enter into the recognized and recognizable knowledge of the time, before it can become a practical truth of any real value to life. What sort of a causality would it be, for instance, that never became perceptible in practical causes and practical results?

This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor.[/I] It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts. [p. 483]

Whereas the latter sinks to the level of a mere presentation of facts, the former evaporates into a representation of the unknowable, which is even beyond everything that could be expressed in an image. The presentation of facts has a certain incontestable truth, because the subjective factor is excluded and the facts speak for themselves. Similarly, the representing of the unknowable has also an immediate, subjective, and convincing power, because it is demonstrable from its own existence. The former says 'Est, ergo est' ('It is ; therefore it is') ; while the latter says 'Cogito, ergo cogito' (' I think ; therefore I think'). In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence. In both cases the further development of life is crowded out of the domain of thought into the region of other psychic functions which had hitherto existed in relative unconsciousness. The extraordinary impoverishment of introverted thinking in relation to objective facts finds compensation in an abundance of unconscious facts. Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life. If this should be the intuitive function, the 'other side' will be viewed with the eyes of a Kubin or a Meyrink. If it is the feeling-function, [p. 484] there arise quite unheard of and fantastic feeling-relations, coupled with feeling-judgments of a quite contradictory and unintelligible character. If the sensation-function, then the senses discover some new and never-before-experienced possibility, both within and without the body. A closer investigation of such changes can easily demonstrate the reappearance of primitive psychology with all its characteristic features. Naturally, the thing experienced is not merely primitive but also symbolic; in fact, the older and more primeval it appears, the more does it represent the future truth: since everything ancient in our unconscious means the coming possibility.

Under ordinary circumstances, not even the transition to the 'other side' succeeds -- still less the redeeming journey through the unconscious. The passage across is chiefly prevented by conscious resistance to any subjection of the ego to the unconscious reality and to the determining reality of the unconscious object. The condition is a dissociation-in other words, a neurosis having the character of an inner wastage with increasing brain-exhaustion -- a psychoasthenia, in fact.


http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

Similarly, all functions seems to be tied to disorder as they reach more strength and dominance.

Now before some INTJ's criticize that Te's don't think about things or create ideas, I think they should read the Ni description. When Jung described the Te attitude, I think he was more referring to the ExTJ's.
 

nanook

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"Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life."
This sounds like a fucking salvia divinorum trip. Brilliant how he is wording things.


I was inspired by this text to write more, but i ended up writing about hitler and now i'm shy about posting :o
 

peoplesuck

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Is it just me or is tmills posted description of Ti really hard to read?
also why does he spell fantasy with ph?
 

StevenM

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This sounds like a fucking salvia divinorum trip. Brilliant how he is wording things.

I think he writes a lot like you do. :smoker:

IMO, he writes quite an amount with so little to say. But that is because he's trying to 'paint' the vision that he sees with words. The big picture in his mind that he's gathered from intuition. I find he literates his vocabulary in a very figurative and poetic fashion; the reader has to look a little deeper for it's meaning.

What I've got out of it, is that contrary to ExTJ's, who are more orientated towards what is, ("It is, therefore it is"), and squander any meaning or original idea coming from those facts,

...an IxTP shies away, and evades the rationality of what actually is and instead, he builds his own laws and structures, his own mystical ideas, which validate to only his own inner world.

That's not to say Ti is bad. It is important for every psyche to have some element of ingenuity and originality, to critique what is, and build explanations for the unknowable. Ti is just a specific creature in a bio-diverse habitat, doing it's part for survival and sustainability.

But just like a gut-bacteria gone rampant and uncontested, when Ti reaches more strength and dominance, it throws a psyche off kilter.

But in moderation, the variety of strengths and dominance of the functions in individuals is what creates a unique fingerprint, a temperament or personality.

In conclusion, I'm just contesting that when a function grows in strength or dominance, in a certain aspect it does have power, but it also brings with it great downfalls.
 

nanook

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the real problem about people becoming sort of useless to common life isn't the degree of introversion or extroversion but the dissociation of the function from other functions.

it's not even just the dominance, but the failure of the dominance to be integrative towards the rest of the psyche.


because Fi would supplement Te with purpose, so even if it does not add to reality but only recognizes it like a parrot, there might be a good utilization of this ability. kids love parrots. it can work in a family person.

and the most introverted insights may create nothing new inside of you and may be a pure echo of what archetypes you always had inside, but Fe would encourage you to share this insight with others and the work of jung is an example for this, he was hardly motivated to write proper books, but he did it anyway.

i don't think the version (i/e) causes automatic dissociation of other functions.
it would require complex set of decisions to do that.
not every buddhist is literally going into a cave.

when functions are dismissed, the quality of the ideas of the remaining functions suffers entirely. it's the quality that is a scary factor, not the matter of productivity.

on the other hand, when functions are fused together, instead of being properly integrated with each other, it's also scary. when the introverted ideas is mistaken as the end all and be all motive for extroverted action (bloody revolutions or cults, unconscious Fe), or the other way around, like when a parrot demands his kids to become parrots too and nothing else (suffocating teacher/parent "be like me", unconscious Fi).

I think all attitudes (as carl jung calls function preferences) do in deed start with simple repetitive motion. I think we have S,N,F,T as our generical organ of intelligence, then e/i tension is introduced through tendencies of life and type is the result. Not saying type isn't inborn though. There may be inborn reasons for why tendencies flow or fall more in one direction than another. Looking at me and my sister, it's clear that she is a deviation from my father and i'm a deviation from my mother. On higher levels, objective motion can be interpreted subjectively as motivation.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I don't think typology is substantiated enough in its current state to assume that certain types specifically have this or that ability. There have been MBTI studies on abilities, but a study on MBTI itself has only validated the E/I factor.

That's not to say that we can't speculate how functions would excel in various fields due to compatible aspects.

Also I'm a believer that a function is modified both by adjacent functions and its "position" in the psyche. For example Ti of TiNe might be more robust or conservative than say the Ti of NiFe which is less differentiated thus more prone to uncontrolled fantasy and the ideas of Ni.
 

StevenM

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the real problem about people becoming sort of useless to common life isn't the degree of introversion or extroversion but the dissociation of the function from other functions.

it's not even just the dominance, but the failure of the dominance to be integrative towards the rest of the psyche.


because Fi would supplement Te with purpose, so even if it does not add to reality but only recognizes it like a parrot, there might be a good utilization of this ability. kids love parrots. it can work in a family person.

and the most introverted insights may create nothing new inside of you and may be a pure echo of what archetypes you always had inside, but Fe would encourage you to share this insight with others and the work of jung is an example for this, he was hardly motivated to write proper books, but he did it anyway.

i don't think the version (i/e) causes automatic dissociation of other functions.
it would require complex set of decisions to do that.
not every buddhist is literally going into a cave.

when functions are dismissed, the quality of the ideas of the remaining functions suffers entirely. it's the quality that is a scary factor, not the matter of productivity.

on the other hand, when functions are fused together, instead of being properly integrated with each other, it's also scary. when the introverted ideas is mistaken as the end all and be all motive for extroverted action, or the other way around, like when a parrot demands his kids to become parrots too and nothing else.

I somewhat agree with what you are saying. Indeed, when disintegration of a function happens, this is where troubles begin.

Whether what Jung says is valid or not, I'd like to quote something else he wrote. I go by his words, because after all, he is the founder of cognitive functions, and has spent a great deal of time working with them when analyzing the psychology of his clients.

I'd like to bring to mention his perspective of the inferior function in the ExTJ type. Because it seems to me that he describes the Fi as a contestant to the dominant; a competitive function that dismantles the conscious Te as a countermeasure to the dominant's way of repressing it. The more Te is strengthened, the more Fi tries to fight back in absurd ways. The inferior seems to unconsciously try to keep the dominant in check.

2. The Extraverted Thinking Type

It is a fact of experience that all the basic psychological functions seldom or never have the same strength or grade of development in one and the same individual. As a rule, one or other function predominates, in both strength and development. When supremacy among the psychological functions is given to thinking, i.e. when the life of an individual is mainly ruled by reflective thinking so that every important action proceeds from intellectually considered motives, or when there is at least a tendency to conform to such motives, we may fairly call this a thinking type. Such a type can be either introverted or extraverted. We will first discuss the extraverted thinking type.

In accordance with his definition, we must picture a, man whose constant aim -- in so far, of course, as he is a [p. 435] pure type -- is to bring his total life-activities into relation with intellectual conclusions, which in the last resort are always orientated by objective data, whether objective facts or generally valid ideas. This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively. Just as the extraverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for its own good, must his entourage also obey it, since the man who refuses to obey is wrong -- he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must, under all circumstances, be realized; for in his eyes it is the purest conceivable formulation of objective reality, and, therefore, must also be generally valid truth, quite indispensable for the salvation of man. This is not from any great love for his neighbour, but from a higher standpoint of justice and truth. Everything in his own nature that appears to invalidate this formula is mere imperfection, an accidental miss-fire, something to be eliminated on the next occasion, or, in the event of further failure, then clearly a sickness.

If tolerance for the sick, the suffering, or the deranged should chance to be an ingredient in the formula, special provisions will be devised for humane societies, hospitals, prisons, colonies, etc., or at least extensive plans for such projects. For the actual execution of these schemes the [p. 436] motives of justice and truth do not, as a rule, suffice; still devolve upon real Christian charity, which I to do with feeling than with any intellectual 'One really should' or I one must' figure largely in this programme. If the formula is wide enough, it may play a very useful rôle in social life, with a reformer or a ventilator of public wrongs or a purifier of the public conscience, or as the propagator of important innovations. But the more rigid the formula, the more, does he develop into a grumbler, a crafty reasoner, and a self-righteous critic, who would like to impress both himself and others into one schema.

We have now outlined two extreme figures, between which terminals the majority of these types may be graduated.

In accordance with the nature of the extraverted attitude, the influence and activities of such personalities are all the more favourable and beneficent, the further one goes from the centre. Their best aspect is to be found at the periphery of their sphere of influence. The further we penetrate into their own province, the more do the unfavourable results of their tyranny impress us. Another life still pulses at the periphery, where the truth of the formula can be sensed as an estimable adjunct to the rest. But the further we probe into the special sphere where the formula operates, the more do we find life ebbing away from all that fails to coincide with its dictates. Usually it is the nearest relatives who have to taste the most disagreeable results of an extraverted formula, since they are the first to be unmercifully blessed with it. But above all the subject himself is the one who suffers most -- which brings us to the other side of the psychology of this type.

The fact that an intellectual formula never has been and never will be discovered which could embrace the [p. 437] abundant possibilities of life in a fitting expression must lead -- where such a formula is accepted -- to an inhibition, or total exclusion, of other highly important forms and activities of life. In the first place, all those vital forms dependent upon feeling will become repressed in such a type, as, for instance, aesthetic activities, taste, artistic sense, the art of friendship, etc. Irrational forms, such as religious experiences, passions and the like, are often obliterated even to the point of complete unconsciousness. These, conditionally quite important, forms of life have to support an existence that is largely unconscious. Doubtless there are exceptional men who are able to sacrifice their entire life to one definite formula; but for most of us a permanent life of such exclusiveness is impossible. Sooner or later -- in accordance with outer circumstances and inner gifts -- the forms of life repressed by the intellectual attitude become indirectly perceptible, through a gradual disturbance of the conscious conduct of life. Whenever disturbances of this kind reach a definite intensity, one speaks of a neurosis. In most cases, however, it does not go so far, because the individual instinctively allows himself some preventive extenuations of his formula, worded, of course, in a suitable and reasonable way. In this way a safety-valve is created.

The relative or total unconsciousness of such tendencies or functions as are excluded from any participation in the conscious attitude keeps them in a relatively undeveloped state. As compared with the conscious function they are inferior. To the extent that they are unconscious, they become merged with the remaining contents of the unconscious, from which they acquire a bizarre character. To the extent that they are conscious, they only play a secondary rôle, although one of considerable importance for the whole psychological picture.

Since feelings are the first to oppose and contradict [p. 438] the rigid intellectual formula, they are affected first this conscious inhibition, and upon them the most intense repression falls. No function can be entirely eliminated -- it can only be greatly distorted. In so far as feelings allow themselves to be arbitrarily shaped and subordinated, they have to support the intellectual conscious attitude and adapt themselves to its aims. Only to a certain degree, however, is this possible; a part of the feeling remains insubordinate, and therefore must be repressed. Should the repression succeed, it disappears from consciousness and proceeds to unfold a subconscious activity, which runs counter to conscious aims, even producing effects whose causation is a complete enigma to the individual. For example, conscious altruism, often of an extremely high order, may be crossed by a secret self-seeking, of which the individual is wholly unaware, and which impresses intrinsically unselfish actions with the stamp of selfishness. Purely ethical aims may lead the individual into critical situations, which sometimes have more than a semblance of being decided by quite other than ethical motives. There are guardians of public morals or voluntary rescue-workers who suddenly find themselves in deplorably compromising situations, or in dire need of rescue. Their resolve to save often leads them to employ means which only tend to precipitate what they most desire to avoid. There are extraverted idealists, whose desire to advance the salvation of man is so consuming that they will not shrink from any lying and dishonest means in the pursuit of their ideal. There are a few painful examples in science where investigators of the highest esteem, from a profound conviction of the truth and general validity of their formula, have not scrupled to falsify evidence in favour of their ideal. This is sanctioned by the formula; the end justifieth the means. Only an inferior feeling-function, operating seductively [p. 439] and unconsciously, could bring about such aberrations in otherwise reputable men.

The rest is again found here: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm
 

nanook

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obviously this competition of functions is real in people and affects many individuals in rather radical ways. but i do not believe, that there is no way out of the dictatorship-like nature of a function, i think functions grow into being appreciative of other functions.

take ken wilber for example. most likely a Ti type but without question a person who takes thinking to the maximum degree. and in deed, his sense of aesthetics is slightly impacted, but not so much that he doesn't enjoy the fuck out of himself, it's all designer clothing and furniture with him. and even though he can be immensely robotic, he is capable of expressing feeling. and he is not only mystic, but half way comprehensive about it which indicates intuition. and his thinking does integrate all of these qualities, it demands integration.

i think i also know intuitive individuals, who use intuitive ways of integrating all aspects of life, not accidentally or as exceptions to the rule, but explicitly, reliably and in all contexts, in private and in public.


total integration is rare and only 2% of the population have so much of it, that they can serve as a good example for the principle.

but as much as i'm just a fuck up, i do witness the principle in my own life.

i used to eliminate so much from my life, but then something in me, presumably feeling, attained the integrative capability and since then i want to integrate everything and have integrated much, but don't manage to integrate some other things yet. it's a process, once it's happening.

i used to be unconscious of thinking, being mostly critical of thinking types and look at me know, i pass as one of them! i used to be ignorant of my body and now i'm a health nut. i still haven't learned to socialize, but at least i had some relationships and i am constantly helping people with something. a better example is how i am beginning to understand and respect and empathize with the attitudes of other people.

this integration is possible because of gained strength of some part of my intelligence, not because a weakness of it. i'm inclined to call it wisdom.

carl jung knew about development.

he described three stages of his types. not calling them such. the stages appear as paragraphs in his text.

one being the dictatorship of the dominant function. apparently what he calls "pure type" (?). for example the estp who eats everything in sight. or the sensing types who only speaks about the weather and has no other concerns.

then the appearance of the auxiliary function.
for example artists, who are also concerned with the ethical problem, instead of merely dealing with the problem of perception.

he appears to idealize this stage, as if it were the most balanced and i think this is his view, because it's the highest stage that worked well inside of a society that is blind to higher levels, the society he lived in.

then the third stage, where people take of into becoming funny and isolated and radical. i believe this correlates roughly with pluralism. he reckognized the degree of individuation that is possible here, but he fears the shadows of this stage.

think about hipsters and hippies who appear to forget about the real world while displaying higher values in fantastical cult settings that are accidentally regressive and can resemble a dictator principle. at the end the spiritual community is just about fucking.

but he did not appear to know about examples of integral development.

which is not surprising, even today integral attitudes are rare, in his days even more so.

the integral principle kicks in after the dream of pluralism wears out or is driven to the wall.

carl jung was still in many ways caught in what we call flatland in integral jargon, it's a world wherein all differences are perceived as if they are typological, just horizontally different, pieces of a pie chart.

or similar and therefore surely the same. such as infant oceanic feelings and transcended nonduality. carl jung had no framework to tell them apart. but they are quite literally worlds apart. vertical worlds.

in this flat world, opposites must remain opposites.

the integrative principle of transcendence and inclusion can not be comprehended without adding a dimension of depth to the whole circus.

what used to be opposites becomes joined in a larger holon. competition becomes cooperation.
 

nanook

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if you define dominance as dictatorship then you would have to say that dominance is being transcended upon entering the integral stage. as if that were the end of type.

i don't really know.

it doesn't feel that way. i think.

i think type (egoic division through dominance, through side takeing) might perhaps be transcended entirely, once all functions are properly integrated with each other, but while the process of integration is ongoing, it still seems that a non absolutistic leadership is maintained but used in the service of the integrative principle.
 

del

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I'm really curious if anyone can create a "Ti test" that measures how well someone uses Ti.

I bet you can measure strength of preference, but not ability. Because ability has nothing to do with cognitive functions.

Ya'll are welcome to prove me wrong though.
 

StevenM

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obviously this competition of functions is real in people and affects many individuals in rather radical ways. but i do not believe, that there is no way out of the dictatorship-like nature of a function, i think functions grow into being appreciative of other functions.

take ken wilber for example. most likely a Ti type but without question a person who takes thinking to the maximum degree. and in deed, his sense of aesthetics is slightly impacted, but not so much that he doesn't enjoy the fuck out of himself, it's all designer clothing and furniture with him. and even though he can be immensely robotic, he is capable of expressing feeling. and he is not only mystic, but half way comprehensive about it which indicates intuition. and his thinking does integrate all of these qualities, it demands integration.

i think i also know intuitive individuals, who use intuitive ways of integrating all aspects of life, not accidentally or as exceptions to the rule, but explicitly, reliably and in all contexts, in private and in public.


total integration is rare and only 2% of the population have so much of it, that they can serve as a good example for the principle.

but as much as i'm just a fuck up, i do witness the principle in my own life.

i used to eliminate so much from my life, but then something in me, presumably feeling, attained the integrative capability and since then i want to integrate everything and have integrated much, but don't manage to integrate some other things yet. it's a process, once it's happening.

i used to be unconscious of thinking, being mostly critical of thinking types and look at me know, i pass as one of them! i used to be ignorant of my body and now i'm a health nut. i still haven't learned to socialize, but at least i had some relationships and i am constantly helping people with something. a better example is how i am beginning to understand and respect and empathize with the attitudes of other people.

this integration is possible because of gained strength of some part of my intelligence, not because a weakness of it. i'm inclined to call it wisdom.

carl jung knew about development.

he described three stages of his types. not calling them such. the stages appear as paragraphs in his text.

one being the dictatorship of the dominant function. apparently what he calls "pure type" (?). for example the estp who eats everything in sight. or the sensing types who only speaks about the weather and has no other concerns.

then the appearance of the auxiliary function.
for example artists, who are also concerned with the ethical problem, instead of merely dealing with the problem of perception.

he appears to idealize this stage, as if it were the most balanced and i think this is his view, because it's the highest stage that worked well inside of a society that is blind to higher levels, the society he lived in.

then the third stage, where people take of into becoming funny and isolated and radical. i believe this correlates roughly with pluralism. he reckognized the degree of individuation that is possible here, but he fears the shadows of this stage.

think about hipsters and hippies who appear to forget about the real world while displaying higher values in fantastical cult settings that are accidentally regressive and can resemble a dictator principle. at the end the spiritual community is just about fucking.

but he did not appear to know about examples of integral development.

which is not surprising, even today integral attitudes are rare, in his days even more so.

the integral principle kicks in after the dream of pluralism wears out or is driven to the wall.

carl jung was still in many ways caught in what we call flatland in integral jargon, it's a world wherein all differences are perceived as if they are typological, just horizontally different, pieces of a pie chart.

or similar and therefore surely the same. such as infant oceanic feelings and transcended nonduality. carl jung had no framework to tell them apart. but they are quite literally worlds apart. vertical worlds.

in this flat world, opposites must remain opposites.

the integrative principle of transcendence and inclusion can not be comprehended without adding a dimension of depth to the whole circus.

what used to be opposites becomes joined in a larger holon. competition becomes cooperation.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm going to try and condense your idea/argument.

In your experience, an INTP can be very well integrated with their inferior function, and still have a remarkable intellectualism with great ability. Thus, you would like to argue that the inferior doesn't make a 'weakening' impact on the dominant. In Ken Wilbur's case, it seems he does not repress his inferior Fe, and because at the same time, he is a remarkable intellectualist with very valid insight, his Ti must still be very 'strong' and capable.

I guess I'm going to be stubborn though, and still stick to my guns.

Because I believe his allowance of integration with Fe (a very healthy and wise choice) did still impact his Ti. Ti, by itself, which causes all the side-effects posted above (a sort of delusion, mystical thinking, albeit creative, yet only validated by the self) was just a little more subservient, a Ti with less ego-centrism, a Ti more collaborative with the other functions in his psyche, especially with Te. Because Ti was knocked a bit off the high horse, or another way of putting it, humbled by it's competitor Fe.

Because as I see it, healthy INTP's all have that relationship with Fe, and Te. INTP's do fact-check objectively. Just as healthy ExTJ's do come to terms with their own understanding and create subjective concepts.

The way Jung writes his types is by describing those using their dominant to the extreme, just to illustrate the point the nature of the function itself, and their behavior towards it's competitor, the inferior.

So in closing, in the case of the brilliant INTP who creates very fantastical yet valid ideas, and has great ability in good intellectualism, is actually one with a little more subservient Ti. Even if still, it's dominantly preferential in the psyche, it is not supremely great in strength and dominance. What gives this INTP his special gift, is his Ti's alliance with Te, it's sidekick partnership with Ne, and it's relationship with the other functions, especially Fe, which keeps Ti in check, and tells it when to stop to allow the other functions to provide a better, holistic, conscious experience.

I know, I explained that kinda cheesy :D
 
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