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Freedom & Fear

Marshall

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This is actually a model that I like... The population dynamics of criminal and normal cohorts interests me; one of those things that's further out from the human causality core than epigenetics if behavior --- epigenetics --- genetics.

Though I don't see it as passing on a bad thing; more like passing on a certain type of freedom or something.

Freedom is just a word the government calls the authoritarian hierarchy we have to deal with on a day to day basis, walking through life trapped in a cage of misery, clawing on the steel bars of kings while they watch our nails bleed.
 
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Re: Self Entitlement?

Freedom is just a word the government calls the authoritarian hierarchy we have to deal with on a day to day basis, walking through life trapped in a cage of misery, clawing on the steel bars of kings while they watch our nails bleed.
Freedom is lack of fear.
 

paradoxparadigm7

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Re: Self Entitlement?

Freedom cannot just reside within the individual but has to be conceived by the juxtaposition of self to others. Freedom comes from mastering yourself to make room for others' freedom.
 
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Re: Self Entitlement?

Freedom cannot just reside within the individual but has to be conceived by the juxtaposition of self to others. Freedom comes from mastering yourself to make room for others' freedom.
This I don't disagree with.... They're all going to be more free if they act like me anyway. ;)
tbh it's probably more of a dynamic equilibrium between two competing varieties. Safety & risk, positive & negative, male & female, Ne vs Ni, predator & prey, etc.

Though of course that would mean it operates at a level of organization above the individual...
 
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Re: Self Entitlement?



Can't it? It's a higher order of freedom that can be achieved within the individual found in mutuality.
Nope, because all individuals are equally influential. The flock displays completely different behavior than the birds who compose it. :eek:
 

The Introvert

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Re: Self Entitlement?

Freedom is lack of fear.

So freedom is ignorance?

If, by your definition, freedom is lack of fear, and there is something to fear, then you're in a bad place.

If you have fear but there is nothing to be afraid of, I argue you're more free (because the fear is your choice, not a result of a state out of your control).

A 'perfect' system is one where fear does not exist and there is nothing to fear. Where morals are aligned across a population. However, that doesn't intuitively sound like a very free, happy, or exciting place to be. Freedom then, must be more complex than simply a lack of fear.

I feel like this could be expanded into a thread of its own.
 
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Re: Self Entitlement?

So freedom is ignorance?

If, by your definition, freedom is lack of fear, and there is something to fear, then you're in a bad place.

If you have fear but there is nothing to be afraid of, I argue you're more free (because the fear is your choice, not a result of a state out of your control).

A 'perfect' system is one where fear does not exist and there is nothing to fear. Where morals are aligned across a population. However, that doesn't intuitively sound like a very free, happy, or exciting place to be. Freedom then, must be more complex than simply a lack of fear.

I feel like this could be expanded into a thread of its own.
Not ignorance, but more like "total awareness."

Otherwise I think what I'm seeing here is, tentatively, the difference between Ne and Ni thought. Possibly Fe & Fi. I'll posit that fear is a choice for some, and not for others, due to an intrinsic mechanism of the brain itself. Ne/Fe can only overcome fear through prolonged exposure to it. Ni/Fi projects it unto the world?

Consequently, Ne/Fe's lack of fear provides reason for Ni/Fi's fear.

You're making a basic assumption that everyone can be free simultaneously, which may not be true.
 

just george

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You're talking about the government's version of freedom, which is akin to a group of tyrants saying "you are free...to do as we tell you".

Actual freedom, on the other hand, is the freedom to do whatever you like.

What I consider the most sensible behavior is for humans to do whatever they like, so long as they do not instigate violence against anyone else.
 
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Actual freedom, on the other hand, is the freedom to do whatever you like.

What I consider the most sensible behavior is for humans to do whatever they like, so long as they do not instigate violence against anyone else.
So it's safe to say we have another vote, albeit it a politically correct one, for lack of fear? ;)
 

just george

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So it's safe to say we have another vote, albeit it a politically correct one, for lack of fear? ;)

Vote? What does voting have to do with it? Who asked you, or me, if we approve of the structure of government, how it all works, terms of service for politicians, and the weight of votes? No one. There is no consent.

So voting is an example of something you are free to do when you are told to do it, and that you must abide by the rules after the vote because you were told.

It took me a long time to figure out, but whoever said "there is nothing to fear but fear itself" was right - when you are fearful, you may be manipulated or bullied into a situation that you never would have agreed to if you were not scared.

So the first thing to do, if you want to be free, is stop being scared of anyone - whether it is a cop wearing a costume, or a judge in a black dress, or a politician wearing a tie that symbolizes a noose or leash - to say to all of those bastards "you are not the boss of me"
 

Rook

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Political freedom means that personal freedom is permissible within a certain set of rules. Thus political freedom defines the extent to wich personal freedom can exist. This ranges from systems like communism, with personal freedom severely limited, democracy, were it is allowed within certain paramaters and anarchy, were we do whatever the fuck we want. Politically it is better to supress personal freedom, otherwise man would be able to rape and pillage with abandon, without repurcussions from any central authority.
 
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So... in any context, is living in fear ever freedom?

It seems, to me, to be, that whole non-aggression principle thing.
 
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Politically it is better to supress personal freedom, otherwise man would be able to rape and pillage with abandon, without repurcussions from any central authority.

:ahh:

Do you not rape and pillage because of these repurcussions?

This is the most pessimistic view of the state of nature and might well ensue when/if the current crop of childlike humans are thrust into a fight for resources and survival. But convincing us that this is the default setting of human nature is the mechanism by which monarchs/governments retain power and control us.

Crime is mostly caused by inequalities perpetuated by government because it legitimizes their existence as "protector".
Fear of 'anarchy' keeps people obedient and afraid to even contemplate alternatives to the staus quo but anarchy doesn't mean out of control, it means out of their control i.e. a social system based on voluntary cooperation.

Most people live in fear and are unfree, ha ha ha.

At least they can't shackle our minds (yet), though we may be afraid.
 

just george

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Political freedom means that personal freedom is permissible within a certain set of rules. Thus political freedom defines the extent to wich personal freedom can exist. This ranges from systems like communism, with personal freedom severely limited, democracy, were it is allowed within certain paramaters and anarchy, were we do whatever the fuck we want. Politically it is better to supress personal freedom, otherwise man would be able to rape and pillage with abandon, without repurcussions from any central authority.

Anarchy is not chaos.

Anarchy is the idea that you can do whatever you like, so long as you do not instigate violence against another, and that the only way to get someone else to do what you want them to do is with their consent.

Chaos is when you can do whatever you want, including instigate violence, and compel others to do what you want against their will.

Freedom, therefore, is about choice.

If you want to be part of a communist system, then you are free to do so. Just don't impose your choice on others.

If you want to be part of a democratic system, then you are free to do so. Just don't impose your choice, and ideas about "the majority", on others.

The most civilized way for human beings to live is in a state of anarchy, where societies may be highly organized, regulated, and effective, but come about based on the free will of the individual.

I get really sick of people who are statists, who believe that the state has the right to do things to me because someone else said so that I never agreed to, including send cops to my house with guns, call themselves civilized, while spouting utter rubbish that anarchy means chaos. It's barbaric.
 

just george

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So... in any context, is living in fear ever freedom?

It seems, to me, to be, that whole non-aggression principle thing.

It depends what you are in fear of.

If you are in fear of nature, then yes, you are free. eg if you are the only person alive on the planet, then you are obviously ultimately free...but still very concerned about, say, the 4 lions coming to eat you.

If you are in fear of others, especially if those others are in organized groups, then you aren't free, because your fear of others stems from their doing something to you that is against your will.

The non aggression principle is the only way that individuals may interact with one another without fear.
 

just george

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:ahh:

Do you not rape and pillage because of these repurcussions?

This is the most pessimistic view of the state of nature and might well ensue when/if the current crop of childlike humans are thrust into a fight for resources and survival. But convincing us that this is the default setting of human nature is the mechanism by which monarchs/governments retain power and control us.

Crime is mostly caused by inequalities perpetuated by government because it legitimizes their existence as "protector".
Fear of 'anarchy' keeps people obedient and afraid to even contemplate alternatives to the staus quo but anarchy doesn't mean out of control, it means out of their control i.e. a social system based on voluntary cooperation.

Most people live in fear and are unfree, ha ha ha.

At least they can't shackle our minds (yet), though we may be afraid.

The state takes at least 75% of everything that everyone makes, which makes everyone poor, because they live in scarcity.

The vast majority of all crimes are committed directly as a result of scarcity. All property crimes are about scarcity. Almost all violent crimes are about scarcity (the only exceptions are crimes of passion, or psychopathy).

The more equal a society is, the lower the crime rate - for example Norway, which recently closed 8 prisons because there weren't enough prisoners to put in them.

It could easily be argued that the state itself is the source of most inequality in any society, and therefore that the state itself is the cause of most crime.

I suspect that you may be an anarchist :D
 

Hadoblado

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I'm wondering what proportion of the forum is anarchist/libertarian? I'm sure it's higher than elsewhere.

I also wonder what proportion of the forum is that way as a result of their presence on the forum, I know I've had my views changed since I moved here.
 
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I'm wondering what proportion of the forum is anarchist/libertarian? I'm sure it's higher than elsewhere.

I also what proportion of the forum is that way as a result of their presence on the forum, I know I've had my views changed since I moved here.

I think it is the ultimate end position to those with a nature prone to questioning authority.
In my case, doing a philosophy degree exposed me to anarchist/libertarian arguments which gave legitimacy to my lifelong distaste for authority.

Anyone care to join up and found a utopia?

(shame we're scattered all over the damn place)
 

just george

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Anyone care to join up and found a utopia?

(shame we're scattered all over the damn place)

If we were all in one place, the government would try to kill us all Waco style. For our own good, and for society, of course.

I agree with your post btw. The more you study the patterns of power, and the outcomes that occur when power is concentrated, the faster you conclude that concentrated power creates injustice, exploitation, and barbarity, while distributed power creates equality, harmony, and civilization.

I don't think that what is happening in the world today ought to be called civilization. It's simply well organized and nicely presented barbarity.
 
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If we were all in one place, the government would try to kill us all Waco style. For our own good, and for society, of course.

:eek: I regret 'coming out'.
*starts deleting posts/recanting opinions*


I don't think that what is happening in the world today ought to be called civilization. It's simply well organized and nicely presented barbarity.

I would argue that it neither well organized or nicely presented if you look closely.
(well ok the tyranny is well organized and the movie has pretty pictures)
 

Absurdity

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I'm wondering what proportion of the forum is anarchist/libertarian? I'm sure it's higher than elsewhere.

I also wonder what proportion of the forum is that way as a result of their presence on the forum, I know I've had my views changed since I moved here.

I'm a right-wing libertarian. Being on this forum helped me arrive to this position to an extent, but a lot was done on my own. I was also raised in a conservative family, which may have something to do with it, as I kind of came full circle (prodigal son style) after a childish infatuation (in my case, not in every) with the radical left that allowed me to rebel against what I was raised with and surrounded by in my community. Interestingly, I was always opposed to American liberalism, whether from the right or the left.

Proxy has some good resources, but I think they are only really utilized by those who possess a basic curiosity in that direction to begin with.
 
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To clarify - i am a compassionate libertarian, not a libertarian a la USA which is somewhat different, as Chomsky says:
"Well what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon, it doesn’t really exist anywhere else — a little bit in England — permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power: so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes"

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liber...rchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ
 

Latte

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¤~¤ I'm going to propose that given current western culture and technology, with an optimistic outlook, large pockets of anarchy cannot arise before in at minimum decade more of technological progress. Likelihood indicates more, as culture has to adjust to technological reality changes.


It could be further sub-divided or lumped together, but I will put the spotlight on two factors whose change will highly impact when pockets of anarchy will be able to thrive.

¤ Culture and public opinion/concerns.

¤ The degree of benefit from centralization of production (including energy) and communication/traveling infrastructure.

To illustrate, imagine the lower value and applicability of centralization in a civilization with flying personal transportation, efficient low-scale energy production and flexible enough production technology to only require the shipment and trade/giving of raw materials from place to place.

Artificial intelligence and increased automation will be another very crucial dimension of change as well, and will be what will likely enable a degree of elimination of scarcity through the highly efficient charity of few that can fully replace and make obsolete the forced resource re-allocation by a centralized monopoly on violence (a state) for that purpose.


~¤ Both of these factors affect each other, but I find that for the great masses, what the current state of used technology is will inform and shape culture and mass perceptions on what is possible and what is desirable.

¤ The idea of anarchy will be too abstract and far from the minds of the great masses unless it is easily grasped to be technologically convinient and potentially safe in a rather concrete way with concrete plans and ideas for how it would work for them.

¤ In parallell, the idea of departing from current highly centralized systems will only become less frightening for most people once its usefulness is reduced. That is, centralized systems becoming increasingly technologically made obsolete when it comes to efficiency.

¤ In the direction from culture to technology, idealism and vision of an anarchistic future will drive more intelligent segments of society to develop and cultivate the technologies needed to make anarchy more convinient and acceptable for the great masses. "Radical" intellectual sub-cultures steering technological advancement towards what will ultimately allow for the change in mainstream culture that will lead to the diminishment of centralized state and private power through in quite real terms engineering its obsolescence.
 

Rook

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What is the possibility of starting an intp-state guided by anarchy? If everyone pitches in financially, coupled with the support of a tolerable government, it may become a hub of freedom and rationality (And gaming).

*Just to clarify: My previous posts were not critical towards anarchy, I merely stated that in a politician's viewpoint it is intorable, as personal freedom surpasses political freedom. I too hold the utopian view of anarchy in high regards.
 

The Introvert

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The only great society is one that exists in our memories.

The best society is no society or a very small society, as altruism is effective only in small sample sizes. Greed is just too sexy of an option otherwise, when you don't know or care who you're fucking over. Massive populations promote an extremist standpoint of self-defense; the inevitable system favors the very few who were lucky or able to manipulate it.
 

Cherry Cola

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There is no absolute freedom even if one ignores the paradox inherent in the concept from the get go.

As it is not absolute, freedom is quantifiable; the greatest yield is desirable.
 

The Introvert

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There is no absolute freedom even if one ignores the paradox inherent in the concept from the get go.

As it is not absolute, freedom is quantifiable; the greatest yield is desirable.
Would there theoretically be one ultimate freedom?

Whether it be one totally free individual or one totally free state.

Perhaps death for the latter, the concept of God for the former.
 
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There is no absolute freedom even if one ignores the paradox inherent in the concept from the get go.

As it is not absolute, freedom is quantifiable; the greatest yield is desirable.
And that thing that most prevents aquiring the greatest yield is fear. :cat:

*high five*
 

Rook

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Would there theoretically be one ultimate freedom?

Whether it be one totally free individual or one totally free state.

Perhaps death for the latter, the concept of God for the former.

I would call death an ultimate freedom, in the human mindframe at least. But then again, one is dead, and even though one is freed from everything that existence pertains to, one is not there to witness the freedom. One is then free to be nothing and not know it.

An ultimately free individual is a bit harder.. Such a being would need freedom from all external and internal stimulus, yet still know that it exists and is free. This is like looking at a cell through a microscope, the cell unaware that it is being observed, while you are actually the cell. Bit of a mind bender.
 
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Thoughts on FREEDOM
July 5, 2010 at 11:32pm

By Ross Ulbricht (Dread Pirate Roberts; Silk Road founder):
In light Independence Day, I have been inspired to write down my thoughts on freedom, about a page in length. I hope they will stimulate YOUR thoughts, which I would most enjoy hearing.

What does it mean to be free? This word has been used to describe many things, including feelings, states of being, political and social arrangements, mental states, and physical states. Like something beyond the power of words to describe, freedom exists, but only as it occurs to someone experiencing it. Is it possible for someone locked in a cage to be freer than someone who isn’t? What if they are free from limiting beliefs and can imagine experiences without limits, while the other limits themselves to a prison of dull routines? Can freedom stand up to inter-personal comparisons, or is it a wholly personal experience?

Because of its vague nature, it is useful to make further distinctions. One way to identify freedom is by what one is free from. For example, social freedom could describe freedom from limitations imposed by others. Physical freedom could be freedom from physical restraint either imposed by others or by nature. Personal freedom could describe freedom from beliefs one may have about one’s self, others, and nature that limit what one believes is possible. Always, freedom arises in the absence of limitation. When someone is not limited by others, their physical environment, lack of knowledge or skill, or their own beliefs about what is possible; it is natural for them to expand how they express themselves in the world until the next barrier to their self-expression is reached.

One’s limitations can be difficult to identify because they are not always in plain view, especially the self-imposed ones but also the ones imposed by others and nature. For example, death and taxes are widely agreed upon to be inevitable, but are they? While one may have a choice in how they respond to external limitations, this does not negate their existence. Death and taxes are still real and observable, but inevitable? This is an interpretation. It is an extrapolation from the past in an attempt to predict the future, is not the truth and therefore limits what is possible.

That being said, it is my observation that far too much attention is directed, by people in general, toward limitations that arise out of a lack of skill or knowledge that could be better directed toward eliminating self-imposed limitations and one’s beliefs about seemingly inevitable external limitations. This is understandable because, for limitations in skill or knowledge, the problem, solution, and benefit are easy to see and predict. For example, I know I will have more freedom if I know how to play the piano and that all I need to do is learn to play and practice. However, the solution to and benefit of ridding one’s self of a belief such as “I’m shy” or “telepathy is impossible” are not so apparent. Imagine how rich and fulfilling your life could be, well beyond learning a new skill, if you could let go of the beliefs you have that limit you and live your life to its fullest potential. Imagine what could be accomplished and experienced.

Are you free? Yes and no. Freedom is a relative and unquantifiable thing. The question is, “How can I be freer?” and the answer to that depends on YOU. For me, I could be freer by letting go of beliefs like “life is hard,” “if you want something done right you should do it yourself,” “why try, I’ll probably fail” and so on. I could also be freer by creating and acquiring more resources that allow me to express myself in bigger and broader ways, both physical in form and in the form of relationships.

Let Independence Day be a reminder to us that we live in a most unique time, and are freer, as a generation, than any that has come before us. Let us be thankful for our freedom, and build a world where we, and the generations that follow us, will be freer than any that have come before!
Another vote for freedom from fear. :)
 

Grayman

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There is no absolute freedom even if one ignores the paradox inherent in the concept from the get go.

As it is not absolute, freedom is quantifiable; the greatest yield is desirable.

I agree. My freedom is your bondage. Your freedom is my bondage. We can only strive fore equal freedom.
 

Rook

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Thoughts on FREEDOM
July 5, 2010 at 11:32pm

By Ross Ulbricht (Dread Pirate Roberts; Silk Road founder):
In light Independence Day, I have been inspired to write down my thoughts on freedom, about a page in length. I hope they will stimulate YOUR thoughts, which I would most enjoy hearing.

What does it mean to be free? This word has been used to describe many things, including feelings, states of being, political and social arrangements, mental states, and physical states. Like something beyond the power of words to describe, freedom exists, but only as it occurs to someone experiencing it. Is it possible for someone locked in a cage to be freer than someone who isn’t? What if they are free from limiting beliefs and can imagine experiences without limits, while the other limits themselves to a prison of dull routines? Can freedom stand up to inter-personal comparisons, or is it a wholly personal experience?

Because of its vague nature, it is useful to make further distinctions. One way to identify freedom is by what one is free from. For example, social freedom could describe freedom from limitations imposed by others. Physical freedom could be freedom from physical restraint either imposed by others or by nature. Personal freedom could describe freedom from beliefs one may have about one’s self, others, and nature that limit what one believes is possible. Always, freedom arises in the absence of limitation. When someone is not limited by others, their physical environment, lack of knowledge or skill, or their own beliefs about what is possible; it is natural for them to expand how they express themselves in the world until the next barrier to their self-expression is reached.

One’s limitations can be difficult to identify because they are not always in plain view, especially the self-imposed ones but also the ones imposed by others and nature. For example, death and taxes are widely agreed upon to be inevitable, but are they? While one may have a choice in how they respond to external limitations, this does not negate their existence. Death and taxes are still real and observable, but inevitable? This is an interpretation. It is an extrapolation from the past in an attempt to predict the future, is not the truth and therefore limits what is possible.

That being said, it is my observation that far too much attention is directed, by people in general, toward limitations that arise out of a lack of skill or knowledge that could be better directed toward eliminating self-imposed limitations and one’s beliefs about seemingly inevitable external limitations. This is understandable because, for limitations in skill or knowledge, the problem, solution, and benefit are easy to see and predict. For example, I know I will have more freedom if I know how to play the piano and that all I need to do is learn to play and practice. However, the solution to and benefit of ridding one’s self of a belief such as “I’m shy” or “telepathy is impossible” are not so apparent. Imagine how rich and fulfilling your life could be, well beyond learning a new skill, if you could let go of the beliefs you have that limit you and live your life to its fullest potential. Imagine what could be accomplished and experienced.

Are you free? Yes and no. Freedom is a relative and unquantifiable thing. The question is, “How can I be freer?” and the answer to that depends on YOU. For me, I could be freer by letting go of beliefs like “life is hard,” “if you want something done right you should do it yourself,” “why try, I’ll probably fail” and so on. I could also be freer by creating and acquiring more resources that allow me to express myself in bigger and broader ways, both physical in form and in the form of relationships.

Let Independence Day be a reminder to us that we live in a most unique time, and are freer, as a generation, than any that has come before us. Let us be thankful for our freedom, and build a world where we, and the generations that fo
Another vote for freedom from fear. :)

Seems to be quite the intelligent individual. His court case would be quite interesting, an entrepeneur vouching for freedom against a restrictive goverment.
 
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Seems to be quite the intelligent individual. His court case would be quite interesting, an entrepeneur vouching for freedom against a restrictive goverment.
Oh, he's screwed. He may well be tortured, waterboarded et al like the worst terrorists in Guantanamo Bay, with a long-delayed trial while the gov continues to "search for evidence," if recent cases serve as precedent (Bradley Manning, et al).

I hope he has access to Mandela's autobiography when he finally reaches the peace of prison.
 
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