Free Will? [Thread Split]

[OrLevitate]

So, do you think we can really actually choose to believe in something?

For us to be totally free agents there'd have to be a break in cause & effect.

If one reads the thoughts of thinkers of the past one might note a bias from their culture influencing their opinions without them recognizing it.

If one looks at mice you might note the predictability of their behavior and be able to foretell what they do, with a rather high rate of successful prediction.

If you look at ants, the rate of success in prediction goes up.

If you look at the simplest organism, you'll be able to predict its behavior almost perfectly.

If you look at chemicals you can do so even closer to perfection in rate of success.

If you look at quantum crap then it's inherently unpredictable.
They say god rolls dice. So, he doesn't roll dice in the syense we used to predict crap for ages and ages, but at the cutting edge of our theories, it's proposed that he does? ...

It's cliche, but it seems to follow that an organism as advanced compared to us as we are to an amoeba would be able to completely predict our actions up to the molecular level, or something, u kno?

So, how does our concept of the freedom of choice fit into possible total determinism? Do you have no actual free will, is it an illusion?
I'd say that our free will is an effect, yes, but also a cause, and that we simply don't understand the cause to the effect of what we know as the freedom of choice.
Thus what we see as free will takes part in forming the completely deterministic system.

aka, reciprocal determinism

 

[vladmirus]

But if ALL outcomes were predetermined under the circumstances, what is the point of life if no entity has free will? Wouldn't it be useless as ultimately life could only be a simulation and the creative mind an illusion.
Wouldn't that make life and the assumption of free will the ultimate illusion?

 

[thoughtfully]

Of course I have free will. I do what I want. I can make all kinds of decisions within limits. Let the materialists try and stop me. If you can convince me I can choose to believe you or not. I have the choice. Show me the evidence and I'll decide.

 

[TheManBeyond]

90% of my spirit is evil.
When pureness makes his way through the maze of my inner dark guardians then i'll be free.

 

[AbstractCanvas]

If our entire existence is bound by universal laws, our existence is inherently part of a system. Thus free will cannot exist since we are not free to choose outside of the system. everything also works based on patterns derived from those laws and is thus predictable and determined as a result of those given laws. Free will exists only if we are the source of the original purpose that gave rise to our reality itself, not just a product of it. if we are "god" and our actual reality is a superposition of many "sub-realities" (so works via principles similar to reciprocal determinism although for reciprocal determinism things can still be bounded by laws e.g. the cycle of cause and effect itself) or if reality is solely a product of your own devising (much like the nature of reality through the mind of a solipsist), then freewill exists

 

[Black Rose]

If our entire existence is bound by universal laws, our existence is inherently part of a system. Thus free will cannot exist since we are not free to choose outside of the system. everything also works based on patterns derived from those laws and is thus predictable and determined as a result of those given laws. Free will exists only if we are the source of the original purpose that gave rise to our reality itself, not just a product of it. if we are "god" and our actual reality is a superposition of many "sub-realities" (so works via principles similar to reciprocal determinism although this form of determinism can still bounds by laws e.g. the cycle of cause and effect itself) or if reality is solely a product of your own devising (much like nature of reality through the mind of a solipsist), then freewill exists

Only God has freewill but then we are that co-occurrence being one with God as source is in me i came from the godhead. my freewill is second order freewill, first order freewill would be no separation such that my solipsism is in effect from Gods unity being my unity. second order solipsism of everyone involved.

 

[OrLevitate]

Hey let's let other people define what we spend our time doing?

I used to get tired of doing things I didn't want to but had to due to other people existing; I turned towards a higher power beyond humanity's free will to tell me it was ok. I've since been questioning this, and wonder why, when I can see the absurd ridiculousness of what other people's desires for me to survive in this society hinge on; why I bother at all? I thought about it long and hard and am totally convinced that the time I spend working at my job is completely validated not by a higher power but by the people superior to me! Like, intellectually, capablistically, they're just better than me. I mean, if I was any better, I'd see a way out of such a mess, obviously I should just relax and do the work they tell me to. Some people I've met think that those "better" people are full of self-interested bullshit and that if we all banded together and stuck to our own self-interests we could change things.

I think they're pretty dumb to think they can change things. It's been this way for a long time, and I'm pretty okay with conforming to their self-catered whims. Really! I am, but they don't get it.

 

[AbstractCanvas]

Only God has freewill but then we are that co-occurrence being one with God as source is in me i came from the godhead. my freewill is second order freewill, first order freewill would be no separation such that my solipsism is in effect from Gods unity being my unity. second order solipsism of everyone involved.

yes exactly, that's aligned with my point. although solipsism seem to differ from the paradox that is the 'co-occurence being one with god' since a solipsist (being the only individual that possesses true consciousness) is all that exists respective of their perception of space, time etc. Free will exists where the laws change according to your will in some way.

 

[Call Me Fishmael]

We have virtual free will in that all actions are determined from the ground up from the most basic natural principles (e.g. the movements of atoms and molecules). This presupposes that consciousness as either a base law of physics or an emergent phenomenon from the firing of synapses. I have free will for all intents and purposes (because I cannot know the status of every particle of matter), though it is determined by natural laws of which we cannot be entirely aware. Just because one does not recognize their own virtual free will does not mean it does not exist. There is no case which disproves this (at least that I have though of).

 

[emmabobary]

From a syntactic point of view "free will" makes no sense at all. Will is it´s own slave, will is just the power, the potencial, the via to get from A to B, therefore there´s no will that is free. Will is put to the service of any ideal or goal, can a hammer hit something by itself? is a hammer free?

 

[Call Me Fishmael]

How the hell do you get the quotes right on here?

Originally posted by Dissident
I dont mean to imply universal determinism, science can refute that, and it doesnt stand metaphisically either.

Would you mind explaining how science can refute determinism, and also how it doesn't "stand" metaphysically (and why you don't spell-check)?

 

[FlorisV]

Determinist here and OK with it. I can live with the illusion of free will, but I did not choose my looks, tastes, preferences, environment and options before being born. Even though my choice made can probably be predicted I can still experience choice and occasionally deviate from what I would choose most of the time. A deviation which can be labeled predictable as well, provided there is enough knowledge of all the factors that weigh in...but OK.

 

[FlorisV]

Will is put to the service of any ideal or goal, can a hammer hit something by itself?

Isn't a goal the product of will rather than that will is the tool to accomplish it?

Of course, motivation, force of will can help to accomplish a goal. A driving force but to call it the tool itself...you decide you want to make apple pie, that's your will, your will is not your oven or your ingredients.

 

[rammy]

lol, we're all literal puppets but we're too scared to face it, our neurons decide for us, they decide every little thing for us before we even notice it, i know it sounds sorta crazy/paranoid but u can do the simple math, it takes some time, it might be dangerous to your mental health (which i have nearly lost, but i am still rational enough for these mind games)
u can talk all u want, this thing, these rules, have proved themseleves to me
& i got no time for proving it to others for 3 reasons:
¹. i'm too busy being anxious & depressed & cold
2. i'm tired of thinkin of it, i've had my cake already, so why bother with others life views
3. i'm iranian so i have a poor vocabulary & all
k bye

 

[Think it do it]

I used to believe the whole "conscious creates reality" theory. Whatever you believe will happen. Think you're a pile of shit, you'll be one. Think there's no god, you won't have one. But then again, I'm not as adventurous as I once was.

 

[Nor Vindsval]

It depends a lot of which concepts of "freedom" we take. If actually, we were totally free, we shouldn't have to choose. Why? Simply, because once you have to choose means, you are not 100% free but determined by the options you are given.

So, as you said, we build concepts over other notions which have been already predisposed by many ideologies or beliefs.