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Frank Zappa

yogurtexpress

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Great musician and satirist. His lyrics certainly portray the dark/absurd side of American life quite nicely, and he was a brilliant commentator even without his music.

I say he was an INTJ. He avoided people on a habitual basis (I), certainly had an odd/creative streak (N), was an ardent critic who didn't mind offending anyone (T), and had an incredibly strong work ethic his entire life (J). I saw him classified as an ISTP elsewhere, and I think that's a ridiculous typing if you've read even one interview with him.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Could be ENTP or INTJ. Not sure which is the definitive typing.
 

eagor

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i'm a prize in a cereal box near you, so buy, BUY,
i want a pretty little jewish princess
 

snafupants

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Hey there people I'm Bobby Brown! :D

You had to be insanely talented to play in Zappa's band.

Adymus believed Zappa was INFJ for some reason.
 

C.J_Finn

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Listening to the Zoot Allures album right now. I can't say anything about his type since I'm terrible at typing people.

The one thing I will say about him is that I wish he wouldn't have done his 80s music. Most of that stuff was awful (imo). His stuff from the 60s and 70s is amazing though.


I would recommend listening to Captain Beefheart if you haven't done so already.
 

cerebedlam

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He definitely was an interesting cat, whatever MBTI designation he belonged to...I actually thought him to be one of the few examples of those in the music business without any real 'vice'...It's such a rare thing that I wanted to see if the industry produced anyone totally free of vice.

Ya know, how most rock stars at least dabble somewhat in both drink and drugs...Frank seemed to be a rare example of one who didn't partake of chemical abuse at all...Until, that is, I read a bit more about him...Zappa was a pretty intense abuser of both Nicotine and Caffeine...People usually don't think of them as such, but they are both full-fledged 'drugs'...And, can lead to some heavy addictive behavior...The smoking eventually took his life...

I thought that maybe both Gene Simmons and Ted Nugent could be seen as examples of those who didn't at all abuse chemicals...But, both are confessed 'Sex Addicts'...And, as we know, sex is totally governed and facilitated by brain chemicals binding to various opiate and barbituate receptor sites...So, there doesn't seem to be any non-addict types anywhere to be found in the music business...Which, does say alot about musically creative psych types.
 

Lot

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I was under the impression he was an ENTP after seeing his interviews and his interaction on talk shows. His music is definitely out there. I didn't give him a serious listen until about 2 years ago. I'm quite partial to Inca Roads.
http://youtu.be/Kg6X2hsl52E
 

snafupants

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I was under the impression he was an ENTP after seeing his interviews and his interaction on talk shows. His music is definitely out there. I didn't give him a serious listen until about 2 years ago. I'm quite partial to Inca Roads.
http://youtu.be/Kg6X2hsl52E

So your overwhelming impression was extraverted intuition in the dominant slot?
 

Lot

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So your overwhelming impression was extraverted intuition in the dominant slot?

I'll have to go back and rewatch what I saw with this in mind. I still have trouble telling the two apart.
 

redbaron

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I don't see him as a J type. I read the book, "The Real Frank Zappa Book" and he is most definitely more P than J.

I think he's closest to an ISTP. He was very thoughtful about the things he experienced and he was very into tinkering with things. He often got a new idea (Ti), looked at what he had available (Se). Then once he got bored with a project, he moved on to the next (P).

He really didn't care for authority at all and he hated when other people misrepresented his ideas (Ti again).

I definitely believe that he was I, P and T. He had absolute hatred for people who tried to tell him what to do and was very spontaneous. Whether he was Ne (making him INTP) or Si (making him ISTP) is probably the most important question to me, I am quite certain of him being IxTP.

I personally believe he was more Se than Ni - ISTP.
 

yogurtexpress

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or Si (making him ISTP)

You mean Se.

He has been listed as ISTP before, but I don't think it's plausible. Are ISTPs known to be control freaks? They're usually live-in-the-moment kind of people, and Zappa was a definite intuitive: all you have to do is look at the video I linked, and any other video where he talks about politics. He also made a lot of predictions about the future in his interviews--are sensors known for predicting the future?

Now INTP is a little more plausible, but I still don't see him as a perceiver. Aren't J's better planners and organizers? Where's the live-in-the-moment, live-and-let-live attitude, 'P' attitude? He was constantly making judgments, imposing his own world view, planning ahead. Seems INTJ might be a bit closer to the truth...
 

redbaron

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You mean Se.

He has been listed as ISTP before, but I don't think it's plausible. Are ISTPs known to be control freaks? They're usually live-in-the-moment kind of people, and Zappa was a definite intuitive: all you have to do is look at the video I linked, and any other video where he talks about politics. He also made a lot of predictions about the future in his interviews--are sensors known for predicting the future?

Now INTP is a little more plausible, but I still don't see him as a perceiver. Aren't J's better planners and organizers? Where's the live-in-the-moment, live-and-let-live attitude, 'P' attitude? He was constantly making judgments, imposing his own world view, planning ahead. Seems INTJ might be a bit closer to the truth...

Sorry Se, I did say Se in the last sentence of my post :P

From reading his book he seems very 'live-and-let-live' and watching his interviews I gather the same really. The fact that he is opinionated doesn't make him more of a J. OF COURSE in an interview someone comes across as being more judgemental and organized - that's the point of the interview. The interviewer is asking questions directly aimed at giving people more insight into his thoughts.

Opinionated does not necessarily = Judging. I am very opinionated, but I am far from J.

In any case, from reading his book I would say he was very spontaneous and didn't really care much for organization, outside of what allowed him to be spontaneous. He didn't like to practice guitar at all, he just liked to screw around and see what happened with the sound.

Also I think you are not really seeing the logical side of an ISTP. When it comes to work, they like to see things done in a logical and efficient way because they are Ti dominant like INTP is. Just because he plans something doesn't mean it's a J function, it can easily be his Ti side saying, "Hey, this is the most logical route. If I follow these steps and they follow those steps, this will work out."

ISTP are very 'doer' type people, and to me this identifies Zappa better than a planner. He did plan stuff to an extent, but he jumped ship to hundreds of ideas all the time. In honesty, when you look at the things he likes to talk about, it's usually based on his experiences and what he's seen himself. Saying that human beings have a capacity for destruction that will increase over time, is really an observation of the world as it is today (and was then).

I don't know, I think maybe you read into his organized ideas as being more J-type than it really is. I think it's more a product of having a primary T function than anything. He was just doing what he loved to do, and took the logical steps necessary to allow him to continue to do so as far as I'm concerned.
 

snafupants

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For the record, wasn't the Real Frank Zappa Book comprised of cobbled together extemporaneous interviews? Divining Zappa's personality from the experiences and argumentation structures/topics depicted in the book is relatively all right, but mistaking a heap of interviews for slice of life Zappa is beguiled. The book, to my knowledge, wasn't even organized by Zappa.

Zappa was an INTJ or INFJ. Get over it. I'd bet damaged INFJ (redundant?) from early interviews and skits, although he does give the semblance of an INTJ in later decades. The man was a family-dedicated recluse who idealistically wanted to change politics and religion and commercialism and social norms. That sounds more INFJ than INTJ to me. Anyway, Zappa was more loose in the late sixties and early seventies than he's credited for. In one documentary I watched a few months ago, Zappa talked about groupies on tour, being hurt that Wild Man Fischer accused him of stealing some tapes, and running for president. This doesn't seem INTJ at all. Also, when you look at the interviews, Zappa usually tried to put the interviewer at ease, unless the interviewer was clearly a prick or Zappa didn't get his coffee that day. But seriously, what INTJ would bring his daughter onto a talk show?

I've read the book; it's hilarious. :D

Maybe some extraverted feeling on display in this video and documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yc7VlGhm0o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJVlc6vuwyw
 

yogurtexpress

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Sorry Se, I did say Se in the last sentence of my post :P

From reading his book he seems very 'live-and-let-live' and watching his interviews I gather the same really. The fact that he is opinionated doesn't make him more of a J. OF COURSE in an interview someone comes across as being more judgemental and organized - that's the point of the interview. The interviewer is asking questions directly aimed at giving people more insight into his thoughts.

Opinionated does not necessarily = Judging. I am very opinionated, but I am far from J.

In any case, from reading his book I would say he was very spontaneous and didn't really care much for organization, outside of what allowed him to be spontaneous. He didn't like to practice guitar at all, he just liked to screw around and see what happened with the sound.

Also I think you are not really seeing the logical side of an ISTP. When it comes to work, they like to see things done in a logical and efficient way because they are Ti dominant like INTP is. Just because he plans something doesn't mean it's a J function, it can easily be his Ti side saying, "Hey, this is the most logical route. If I follow these steps and they follow those steps, this will work out."

ISTP are very 'doer' type people, and to me this identifies Zappa better than a planner. He did plan stuff to an extent, but he jumped ship to hundreds of ideas all the time. In honesty, when you look at the things he likes to talk about, it's usually based on his experiences and what he's seen himself. Saying that human beings have a capacity for destruction that will increase over time, is really an observation of the world as it is today (and was then).

I don't know, I think maybe you read into his organized ideas as being more J-type than it really is. I think it's more a product of having a primary T function than anything. He was just doing what he loved to do, and took the logical steps necessary to allow him to continue to do so as far as I'm concerned.

Alright, time to land the missing piece: he defined his life by structure and routine. He was a relentless workaholic--almost his entire life. His bandmates even said, when they wanted to relax, Zappa would be working and working and working, to the point where he wouldn't go to sleep. When he was diagnosed with prostate cancer, his biggest pet peeve was the fact that it would mess with his routine.

Now, does that really sound 'P' and live-and-let-live? You're correct in that Zappa may have enjoyed the process more than the result, which would be a major boost to your 'Zappa the perceiver' argument, but keep in mind that this thing runs on a scale, and if we measured him overall, he'd probably fall closer to J than to P, because he was mainly result-oriented.

Evidence for him being result-oriented?

- Super pragmatic. Remember the passages in the Real Frank Zappa book where he talked about music? He knew most listeners didn't give a shit about music without lyrics, and therefore discluded them for the sole purpose of making money. This could simply be 'T' over 'F,' but since you cite 'live-and-let-live' as a 'P' attitude, then his business methods certainly contradict that.

- Speaking of business, was super good with money and management. So good that he was constantly critical of musicians who didn't live up to his standards. He despised laziness, and the unions that endorsed what he perceived to be lazy behavior. Had beef with those who didn't work hard, who didn't live up to his standards, and who didn't show up on time.

Now with 'basic MBTI' (basic four functions), I think it's always hard to fully gauge the P/J dichotomy--'cause real accuracy, in my opinion, is found in functions, and I've more or less explained why he's Ni-dominant (you could also use some of the evidence I've listed above to support what I perceive to be his auxillary Te). But the picture I've depicted overall, is a person who isn't exactly relaxed in the way we might imagine your average 'P' to be--even if he gives off what you perceive to be the relaxed vibe. He tinkers with music, yes, but he treats music as a routine and an achievement in a way that I only believe a J could do.

For the record, wasn't the Real Frank Zappa Book comprised of cobbled together extemporaneous interviews? Divining Zappa's personality from the experiences and argumentation structures/topics depicted in the book is relatively all right, but mistaking a heap of interviews for slice of life Zappa is beguiled. The book, to my knowledge, wasn't even organized by Zappa.

Wrong. He wrote it with the help of a writing partner.
 

snafupants

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@yogurtexpress

This excerpt is directly from the introduction of the Real Frank Zappa Book. Zappa's speech was transcribed from interviews, like I said before. These are the facts. Peter Occhiogrosso asked Zappa some questions, per the expectations and duties of a journalist and writer, and later organized Zappa's answers into book form. The strongest argument you could make is that Zappa operated as an editor of sorts, albeit a soft and belated one. I remember reading that somewhat nebulous prefatory comment from years ago. Your apology is anxiously awaited.

I don't want to write a book, but I'm going to do it anyway, because Peter Occhiogrosso is going to help me. He is a writer. He likes books -- he even reads them. I think it is good that books still exist, but they make me sleepy.
The way we're going to do it is, Peter will come to California and spend a few weeks recording answers to 'fascinating questions,' then the tapes will be transcribed. Peter will edit them, put them on floppy discs, send them back to me, I will edit them again, and that result will be sent to Ann Patty at Poseidon Press, and she will make it come out to be 'A BOOK.'
One of the reasons for doing this is the proliferation of stupid books (in several languages) which purport to be About Me. I thought there ought to be at least ONE, somewhere, that had real stuff in it. Please be advised that this book does not pretend to be some sort of 'complete' oral history. It is presented for consumption as entertainment only.
 

redbaron

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I think you're confusing working hard and being logical with him being J.

ISTP's seek practical and logical application in everything they do. They are very pragmatic, but they also value the ability to improvise and to adapt to their own and others' potential spontaneity.

Everything you stated is really quite typical of an ISTP. They are relentless workers who like to lead by example (AKA work harder than everybody else).

Also even though he worked hard, he changed his ideas all the time and moved from one project to the next constantly once he'd achieved a practical result in an idea - very ISTP. He remoulded his band all the time and almost never played the same live song the same.

I honestly think that your idea of what makes a 'J' is incorrect. I am very Perceiving, but I am excellent with my money and management. I despise laziness to the point where I sometimes verbally berate people who show signs of laziness at work (I suspect a result of my inferior Fe - it simply rubs me the wrong way and my reaction becomes volatile). An ISTP is just as prone to volatile outbursts as an INTP is if we are to assume the inferior Fe function has a similar effect.

At the same time, my leadership style at work is to allow people to do things their own way, with myself only really setting the overall required benchmark they need to meet.
 

cerebedlam

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I'm seeing Zappa Plays Zappa next Saturday night, ya'll...Anyone know WHO to expect on that concert stage?...I would love to see Terry Bozzio, George Duke, Jean Luc Ponty, Steve Vai, etc...Certainly will be disappointed if all there's gonna be is the Zappa Bros...
 

cerebedlam

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Saw the Z P Z show a few weeks back and was way disappointed...I don't know what I was expecting, but what I GOT was a glorified cover band...There wasn't a single member of Frank's classic outfits from the 70's...Not even the second Zappa son was included...Just turned out to be a pretty good band playing some of the better known Zappa tunes...with many to most of my personal favs omitted.
 
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