Fe inferior

[Brontosaurie]

i do not claim to have any new hypothesis. i am interested in knowing whether there is a consensus regarding this abstract of a common rough outline description of Fe as inferior function.

the Ti-dom observes, sometimes notes and even registers emotional signals (or hints or codes) indicating social considerations that arise. however it is strongly compelled not to act upon them, preferring to avoid social gestures, which are by default perceived as manipulative. Ti-dom wants to give everyone a chance to make up their own minds about what happens and what is true, and then proceed from there. quiet investigative mindset is a trait they are prone to project unto others and encourage in others, as is similar for any dominant function.

i may be doing the latter thing right now lol.

anyway, what do you think? do you agree and to what extent? how would you change or subtitute it?

 

[StevenM]

I've been reading up on INFP's.

And interesting thing about that type, is that there is no mystery on how the inferior plays it's role. INFP's have a really strong tendency to be very subjectively idealistic. (Daydreaming, and expecting things to go their way, and later being dissapointed, depressed, and then back to resorting to their fantasy land. (Fi)

As they mature however, and grow more into adulthood, they hopefully 'wake up' to reality (a reality check in a way), and begin the journey of trying to understand objective thinking, trying to grasp the concept of what is objectively practical, and realistic. (Te)

I'm not going to go into depth about Ti.

But as for Fe, it is objective feeling. It may still be 'idealistic'. But it's a common ideal way for all people in a group to benefit. The 'rules' such that it keeps the peace between each other, and all disputes are mediated cooperatively.

I'm guessing based on similar trends to the INFP, once an INTP starts maturing, they may begin to 'wake up' to this ideology. They may try understanding the ways to idealistically cooperate with others and do their share to benefit everyone fairly in a group.

I'm guessing that makes the INTP mischievous during immaturity.

 

[nanook]

basically you avoid probing and actualizing any state of affairs that has come to be within the inferior function. some shit has been happening. fuck this shit. let's go somewhere else.

example from my experience with an ISTP girl. i will pretend you (the reader) are her. and i am assuming i am an Fi type.

we went to school together. 20 years later, on a class reunion, i do not recall your name or in which year you were in my class, or in which course. you are offended, make a snippy remark and ignore me immediately and forever. i must assume you will talk shit about me, behind my back. it's uncreative, like a reflex.

conscious Fe would simply make sure i will remember your name in the future.

conscious Fi would not acknowledge the value of remembering a name at all and would value being in harmony with me despite obstacles like me not having a good memory, because we have real valuable things in common, like being introverts.

to Fi what matters is who we are and how we relate deeply, our emotional compatibility, not what has occurred in our relationship so far and whatever went wrong in treatment (the downside is, that we may make no attempts at fixing something that went wrong either, we just want to forget it).

but inferior Fe will simply be offended and move on, but it won't forget, the relationship is now officially fucked up.

inferior Fe allows the Ti type to navigate into worthwhile social contexts most of the time.

he will be friends with those people who remember his name and enemy with those who don't.

he will not realize, that his friends may be good for nothing, except superficial socializing, because he lacks comparison with real friends. he has fuck-buddies or video game buddies, but may have no real values in common with them.

but at least he will avoid the company of some Fi people who play it harmoniously when they really don't find him agreeable.

but he will also have to do without those few who might have became good friends, if he had given them a chance and accepted them despite their failure to engage on the Fe level at all.

the dominant Fe type is different, he will probe the environment more actively and not be misguided by hick-ups, he will inquire into why someone really doesn't remember his name, or whatever the cause of any mis-treatment is, because the Fe dominant type is not afraid of exploring such matters further and he really cares about achieving the best possible interaction with everyone.

much like inferior Te will receive one rejection in the business world and never want to try to apply for a job again, ever, when dominant Te would systematically apply for all jobs in the whole world. because dominant Te its not afraid of being exposed to facts, such as what goes and what doesn't.

inferior Fe ends up entrapped in meaningless superficial relationships that run smooth like a dexter episode but that never go anywhere. they may be practical, from a Ti point of view, but have no real emotional value.

much like inferior Te enslaves itself into concrete arrangements, that go no where, but persist somehow, such as receiving social welfare or working in the wrong place or hiding in the parent's basement.

 

[nanook]

i have also observed archaic values in such types. an obsession with a display of brutal strength and a hate for displays vulnerability and vulnerable individuals, such as beggars, who can be easily accused of not even trying, from an outside perspective. you have to be a shining example for something or else you are worth nothing at all. that is some inferior Fe stuff. it's impulsive level of development. borderline/narcissism. on this level, Fe likes sado maso shit. especially sado shit. it's the same in extp. it's why the enneagram seven is so obsessed with social status. and is occasionally paralyzed into social anxiety, by the pressure it put's on itself. sometimes this archaic black and white pattern emerges in ixfj. Fe isn't on this particular level in all individuals, so the example can't be generalized.

a typical example is when you call someone out for being an attention whore. you love to do this, i have read it a thousand times on here. everyone needs attention. but to ask for it is a display of vulnerability and you can't bear the sight of it. you want to be on top of the game and project this value (being on top is good) onto others, meaning they also ought to be on top of the game. they must not be needy. they must deserve their attention with some heroic act. the higher you set the price for attention in general, the more valuable you feel from the attention that you have in your life. you are not whoring and still receiving all the attention you need. probably because you are so smart. now look at that looser over there, who has to ask for it. what a disgraceful idiot.

conscious Fe has a good understanding of Fi, but inferior Fe does not. the above example is in good part a complete inability to look at things from an Fi perspective. while the Fe attitude is one of not wanting to look at it. conscious Fe will have to consider the Fi perceptive consciously and give it a lower priority. this is because extroversion is arising within the totality of feeling. the split of Fi and Fe is temporary. but in the case of inferior Fe, Fi will bel dismissed unconsciously, meaning the extroversion of F is arising unconsciously. Fi means being conscious of things such as vulnerabilities and needs, regardless of the situation, of whether one is currently 'deserving' of bringing the need up, socially. It's just conscious of the state of the subject, period. it understands the Fe of others and knows when it better ought to hide a need, but it can not become unconscious of the need or core-value, thus it can not fully appreciate the Fe perspective on what is appropriate right now. Fi can barely muster up the patience to stay with the shallow limits of the social situation.

 

[DrSketchpad]

i have also observed archaic values in such types. an obsession with a display of brutal strength and a hate for displays vulnerability and vulnerable individuals, such as beggars, who can be easily accused of not even trying, from an outside perspective. you have to be a shining example for something or else you are worth nothing at all. that is some inferior Fe stuff. it's impulsive level of development. borderline/narcissism. on this level, Fe likes sado maso shit. especially sado shit. it's the same in extp. it's why the enneagram seven is so obsessed with social status. and is occasionally paralyzed into social anxiety, by the pressure it put's on itself. sometimes this archaic black and white pattern emerges in ixfj. Fe isn't on this particular level in all individuals, so the example can't be generalized.

a typical example is when you call someone out for being an attention whore. you love to do this, i have read it a thousand times on here. everyone needs attention. but to ask for it is a display of vulnerability and you can't bear the sight of it. you want to be on top of the game and project this value (being on top is good) onto others, meaning they also ought to be on top of the game. they must not be needy. they must deserve their attention with some heroic act. the higher you set the price for attention in general, the more valuable you feel from the attention that you have in your life. you are not whoring and still receiving all the attention you need. probably because you are so smart. now look at that looser over there, who has to ask for it. what a disgraceful idiot.

conscious Fe has a good understanding of Fi, but inferior Fe does not. the above example is in good part a complete inability to look at things from an Fi perspective. while the Fe attitude is one of not wanting to look at it. conscious Fe will have to consider the Fi perceptive consciously and give it a lower priority. this is because extroversion is arising within the totality of feeling. the split of Fi and Fe is temporary. but in the case of inferior Fe, Fi will bel dismissed unconsciously, meaning the extroversion of F is arising unconsciously. Fi means being conscious of things such as vulnerabilities and needs, regardless of the situation, of whether one is currently 'deserving' of bringing the need up, socially. It's just conscious of the state of the subject, period. it understands the Fe of others and knows when it better ought to hide a need, but it can not become unconscious of the need or core-value, thus it can not fully appreciate the Fe perspective on what is appropriate right now. Fi can barely muster up the patience to stay with the shallow limits of the social situation.

This would make me start to obsess about my maybe mistyping myself again. i think I just have a better relationship with my Fe than some Ti doms. See, I would never immediately think of someone who's holding cardboard on the side of the road as lazy/not trying. I wouldn't call someone out for being an attention whore. I might be a bit irritated if I'd known them for a while and knew they never tried to be anything more more than genuine acknowledgment sponges ( but I recognize it as a fault of my own) but, not taking into consideration other people's circumstances and feelings before making a judgment (side note: It annoys me when people automatically associate judging someone with negativity, but anyways) is something I consider irrational given that you were born with actual empathizing ability. Things like being snarky / unappreciative to waiters or people at the drive through who happen to not bow down at you're every will or weren't able to do exactly what you want absolutely boils my blood.

Maybe I'm not an Ti dom after all though

Maybe my inferior function has developed at a younger age than some

Maybe the functions are more arbitrary than people consider them and we should all just branch out a bit more cognitively

Also, here's a speech that I absolutely adore and recommend that goes a long with this kind of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

I found it after I had been thinking about precisely what he talks about for a week or so. It was absolutely a great thing to come across.

Anyhooo, I'd love to know what you think

 

[nanook]

I think the beggar example may be more of an istp/estp thing, since Se is like 'you can do anything, you just have to start' and Ne (if owned by Ji) is like 'how do possibilities come together?' 'how can i know, where trying something will take me?'. Se (owned by Ji) has less criteria for what action or rather what result is good enough to bother. nevertheless Ti is harsh in judgement, another example is this "if a cop shoots you, it's your fault, because you have provoked him" talk, which is accurate from a Ti perspective, but does not take into account that people are not Ti types, who could think about the consequences of their actions logically, prior to ever acting - they need to follow their feels and the cops make them so angry, they have to react, which is considered provokation. and it doesn't take into account that a cops decision to pull the trigger or carry a gun in the first place is always a moral descision that can be discussed.

of course a reasonable Ti individual can come to understand the limits of a pure Ti perspective and compensate for it.

nevertheless, if you know these patterns in an abstract way, you can always catch a type doing something similar, in a moment, where they are being more spontaneous about expressing their default circuit.

the idea is not: all Ti types are like that, it's: if somebody is like that, it's some Ti-Fe activity happening somewhere in his mind.

the crux with typology is that specific examples will usually cause the individual ego to distance itself from the type, but abstract examples (that are so abstract, that they cover all individual of a type in all situations) are so misunderstood, that accepting your type does not provide you with insight into your functionality.

i may watch the video later ...

 

[Brontosaurie]

wow you do hate INTP's. i can relate to almost nothing in your posts (except the brief mention of narcissism and to a degree the bashing of attention whores but dude come on that shit is poison) and no i didn't take your examples literally.

what you describe is all pathological. maybe it's a deliberate contrast to my rather optimistic characterization.

 

[nanook]

i had the hardest time realizing that i am probably an Ne type, because i always heard that Ne is aware of possibilities, but my perspective on life is, that i always perceive how everything i dream of is impossible, whereas other types will do impossible shit and be sort of tolerated by reality, even though they don't succeed fully, they get something out of it. i DO realize hypothetical possibilities, that are mostly unrelated to extroverted interactive life. i realize a million different ways to imagine how something might function inside. but at the end all of those hypotheses are coming together like a clockwork with one most likely outcome, that can not be altered and i usually don't like it and feel stuck with it. i know entp are different, because they don't think things through, they live like there is only one hypothesis and it's their reality, so they are free to experiment with life like crazy and then, by experience, they learn about all the loopholes, so they can discover a wordy or social freedom. whereas i feel like i would have to enslave myself to a work system or to a system of relationships and it would never really be for my advantage, i will always end up with the lowest status, because the other gears in the clockwork will make manifest this reality. this way of thinking is like a breakdown of the ennegram seven. it's what they run away from, using Ne dominance. but i remain stuck there.

 

[nanook]

wow you do hate INTP's. i can relate to almost nothing in your posts (except the brief mention of narcissism and to a degree the bashing of attention whores but dude come on that shit is poison) and no i didn't take your examples literally.


what you describe is all pathological. maybe it's a deliberate contrast to my rather optimistic characterization.

it's observations i have made on this message board. perhaps i apply a principle of caricature to outline the patterns more. it's not a matter of hate.

even the most empathic Ti type will say similar things, without ignoring the other functions, even when understanding and respecting those, he will still insist on arguing the Ti perspective and leave the other perspectives to other people.

and instead of insisting that it must be wrong, because you are different, you should find the people who act like this and compare yourself to them. you know they exist. i'm pretty sure some of them have fucked with you in the past. perhaps you will find that you are another type than they are. and it's a possibility, that they use different functions, that their behavior must be explained differently. one can always redefine functions in his mind, so that one can make an attempt to explain a behavior with Te that one has sooner explained with TiNe for example.

 

[DrSketchpad]

I think the beggar example may be more of an istp/estp thing, since Se is like 'you can do anything, you just have to start' and Ne (if owned by Ji) is like 'how do possibilities come together?' 'how can i know, where trying something will take me?'. Se (owned by Ji) has less criteria for what action or rather what result is good enough to bother. nevertheless Ti is harsh in judgement, another example is this "if a cop shoots you, it's your fault, because you have provoked him" talk, which is accurate from a Ti perspective, but does not take into account that people are not Ti types, who could think about the consequences of their actions logically, prior to ever acting - they need to follow their feels and the cops make them so angry, they have to react, which is considered provokation. and it doesn't take into account that a cops decision to pull the trigger or carry a gun in the first place is always a moral descision that can be discussed.

of course a reasonable Ti individual can come to understand these things.

nevertheless, if you know these patterns in an abstract way, you can always catch a type doing something similar, in a moment, where they are being more spontaneous about expressing their default circuit.

the idea is not: all Ti types are like that, it's: if somebody is like that, it's some Ti-Fe activity happening somewhere in his mind.

the crux with typology is that specific examples will usually cause the individual ego to distance itself from the type, but abstract examples (that are so abstract, that they cover all individual of a type in all situations) are so misunderstood, that accepting your type does not provide you with insight into your functionality.

i may watch the video later ...

Thanks for the insight

Yeah most definitely check it out. It puts into words one of the foundations of my
thinking.

 

[Grayman]

nevertheless Ti is harsh in judgement, another example is this "if a cop shoots you, it's your fault, because you have provoked him" talk, which is accurate from a Ti perspective, but does not take into account that people are not Ti types, who could think about the consequences of their actions logically, prior to ever acting - they need to follow their feels and the cops make them so angry, they have to react, which is considered provokation. and it doesn't take into account that a cops decision to pull the trigger or carry a gun in the first place is always a moral descision that can be discussed.

There is no fault in you for getting shot. The reality is that you will get shot if you provoke a dumb bull. Since I respect your intelligence over that of a dumb biggot of no self control, the only way for you to not get trampled is to control the situation and not be blinded by your own beliefs of right and wrong. In other words live to fight another day. And its damn good advice.


Edit: Just playing out scenario...

 

[Brontosaurie]

it's observations i have made on this message board. perhaps i apply a principle of caricature to outline the patterns more. it's not a matter of hate.

even the most empathic Ti type will say similar things, without ignoring the other functions, even when understanding and respecting those, he will still insist on arguing the Ti perspective and leave the other perspectives to other people.

and instead of insisting that it must be wrong, because you are different, you should find the people who act like this and compare yourself to them. you know they exist. i'm pretty sure some of them have fucked with you in the past. perhaps you will find that you are another type than they are. and it's a possibility, that they use different functions, that their behavior must be explained differently. one can always redefine functions in his mind, so that one can make an attempt to explain a behavior with Te that one has sooner explained with TiNe for example.

the "hate" thing was meant kind of jokingly. a bad joke.

about the rest: you seem to be exercising more reckless Ne than you think. a value neutral observation on my part.

 

[Grayman]

@Nanook

So feelers are just compulsive people with no self control? Does the INFJ contradict this hypothesis?

 

[Cherry Cola]

I think most of nanooks examples apply to douche Thinkers in general and not Ti types in particular, especially not INTPs. But I live in a hostel with a bunch of extroverts ATM and I don't have a computer so I cba to write any observations of my own. Also Plz write more guys inferior Fe is interesting.

When Bronto drunk he inferior Fe all over da place

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I'll give nanook some of the "drama whore" example, that seems to make sense to me. This forum doesn't particular like drama whores / people begging for affirmation and attention.

If you want attention, you need to earn it by either being particularly insightful or just really funny (as humor is partly about being able to think fast and make connections) -- and thus it's deserved and a fair trade, not charity. You've earned any acclaim through merit. Trying to get attention by begging for it with emotional displays/groveling or copious amounts of posting without much substance comes off as distasteful.

I don't really have it in me to endure that stuff, and I never understood how the more aux/dom Fe types were able to perceive the same things but often find a way of interacting with those types of people to make them feel better; my Fe sense is more blunt, I experience it as social manipulation on the part of the person and have trouble respondly kindly to it (if I respond at all).

When Bronto drunk he inferior Fe all over da place

Video and swab samples or it didn't happen.

 

[TheManBeyond]

When i'm drunk my inhibitions disappear complitely, i can get naked in front of people and they won't even notice it since my spirit remains quiet, it just dances all away.

lol, no i was just kiddin

 

[Teffnology]

Well, I'll give nanook some of the "drama whore" example, that seems to make sense to me. This forum doesn't particular like drama whores / people begging for affirmation and attention.

If you want attention, you need to earn it by either being particularly insightful or just really funny (as humor is partly about being able to think fast and make connections) -- and thus it's deserved and a fair trade, not charity. You've earned any acclaim through merit. Trying to get attention by begging for it with emotional displays/groveling or copious amounts of posting without much substance comes off as distasteful.

I don't really have it in me to endure that stuff, and I never understood how the more aux/dom Fe types were able to perceive the same things but often find a way of interacting with those types of people to make them feel better; my Fe sense is more blunt, I experience it as social manipulation on the part of the person and have trouble respondly kindly to it (if I respond at all).

I am guilty of the condition you describe that my Fe inferiority causes behavior that I myself don't care for in others. Seeking admiration and attention to appease my ego and feel that the products of my Ti-Ne are being recognized. Like I am doing with this post haha. I guess it is a form of social manipulation because it is how I attempt to commandeer social situations to feel adequately connected. I appologize for having contributed to this issue and hope to be more aware in future situations. Thank you for your insight.

 

[Jennywocky]

I am guilty of the condition you describe that my Fe inferiority causes behavior that I myself don't care for in others. Seeking admiration and attention to appease my ego and feel that the products of my Ti-Ne are being recognized. Like I am doing with this post haha. I guess it is a form of social manipulation because it is how I attempt to commandeer social situations to feel adequately connected. I appologize for having contributed to this issue and hope to be more aware in future situations. Thank you for your insight.

You so far haven't come across that way to me. Maybe you're actually okay. (just providing feedback)

 

[Grayman]

basically you avoid probing and actualizing any state of affairs that has come to be within the inferior function. some shit has been happening. fuck this shit. let's go somewhere else.

example from my experience with an ISTP girl. i will pretend you (the reader) are her. and i am assuming i am an Fi type.

we went to school together. 20 years later, on a class reunion, i do not recall your name or in which year you were in my class, or in which course. you are offended, make a snippy remark and ignore me immediately and forever. i must assume you will talk shit about me, behind my back. it's uncreative, like a reflex.

conscious Fe would simply make sure i will remember your name in the future.

conscious Fi would not acknowledge the value of remembering a name at all and would value being in harmony with me despite obstacles like me not having a good memory, because we have real valuable things in common, like being introverts.

to Fi what matters is who we are and how we relate deeply, our emotional compatibility, not what has occurred in our relationship so far and whatever went wrong in treatment (the downside is, that we may make no attempts at fixing something that went wrong either, we just want to forget it).

but inferior Fe will simply be offended and move on, but it won't forget, the relationship is now officially fucked up.

I don't think remembering a name is particularly important or always achievable. I do it for the sake of others because they falsely believe my ability to remember their name determines how much I value them. There is so much more to them than a name.

a typical example is when you call someone out for being an attention whore. you love to do this, i have read it a thousand times on here. everyone needs attention. but to ask for it is a display of vulnerability and you can't bear the sight of it. you want to be on top of the game and project this value (being on top is good) onto others, meaning they also ought to be on top of the game. they must not be needy. they must deserve their attention with some heroic act. the higher you set the price for attention in general, the more valuable you feel from the attention that you have in your life. you are not whoring and still receiving all the attention you need. probably because you are so smart. now look at that looser over there, who has to ask for it. what a disgraceful idiot.

MY INSTANT FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS:

An irritation for me very much so. I just want knock down the people who think they are strong and better than the weak and help the other guys up. Everyone should be on the same level or in reality there shouldn't even be a level concept. These people aren't looking for attention; they are looking for acceptance and this is completely different. Why so much worry about manipulation? Why cannot everyone just take responsibility for their own emotions? Everyone's thoughts should be at least considered and listened to but not necessarily accepted. I get tired of the blatant disregard people show each other.

 

[TBerg]

You so far haven't come across that way to me. Maybe you're actually okay. (just providing feedback)

You just provided affirmation.

 

[nanook]

it's clearly a projection. Ti types, who are at war with Fe, try to discover a manipulative Ti motive underneath all expression of feeling stuff and they will see it, even when it's not there. they just can't understand that F can have a pure independence.

someone who is vulnerable and needy is not trying to exploit you, he is just being himself, but you are greedy and perceive having to care for someone as a sacrifice of alone time, so you feel exploited. "why can't this fucker just serve his own god damn need?"

while someone, who is fully identified with feeling, derives a sense of purpose from being able to provide for a need, so he is grateful, that the vulnerable party is revealing their needs.

what does it mean to be responsible for your feelings?

it means, for example, when you have a need, that you can not serve yourself, you communicate it.

like when you are insecure about how you are being perceived (and you really "have" to know, because it's part of making a connection), you can ask the whole message board what they think about you, that is okay!

it also means: when you feel like being greedy and not helping someone out, you don't blame that person for asking, you don't curse at their "self centered thread", but admit that you are in a Mr scrouge kinda mood and you hate them and don't want to comment and you are envious of how many other people comment on their thread.

if you are enemy with the Fe of others, you are automatically your own worst enemy, because you could receive a lot of help (including confidence) from the community, if you would just ask for it, but now since you have labeled doing so as "being self centered" and damned, you can no longer do this, without loosing your face.

you must for ever pretend that like buttons are the source of all evil, because if someone were to get any confidence out of their received likes, that would be so unfair, since you wouldn't be getting any likes for your long and smart TLDR posts, but they would get likes for posting a sleazy photo with naked shoulders.

well, it's about time you get naked and embrace your Fe. all pics to my inbox.


some aspects of this are similar for me (supposed INFP). I know the envy aspects of it. envy like that can happen for all introverts, i guess. for Fi, accepting these Fe aspects of life isn't easy either. i don't ask for shit and i don't always respons to requests. but the helping out part and deriving a sense of purpose from being allowed to help out is very much an Fi thing, imo. so i have never judged it, when someone is requesting something. but the envy made me mad at all the people who were in the position to be the ones who could help out. i would often think: this is way too easy, they don't do real work, they just say some kind words. extroverted feeling exchange is often looking like empty currency to me.

 

[Teffnology]

Yeah most definitely check it out. It puts into words one of the foundations of my
thinking.

I just watched it and have been struggling with the concepts he discussed, for some time now. I really appreciated his candor and ability to cut to the heart of the self in relation to the world. Great speech with a very powerful message. Much obliged on turning me on to it. Definite descriptor of feelings/issues I've had about culture and society.

 

[TBerg]

Nanook is on fire.

 

[nanook]

in a good or in a bad way?

i have a posting inhibition right now. i've just had some more thoughts about the subject of meeting eye to eye versus thinking in terms of levels. but these thoughts are about a past experience of myself and may not be specific to a type at all, unless the way i put it into words is specific for my own type.

 

[Analyzer]

I agree with your general idea about the dominant-inferior role. INTP seems like the ones who focus on projecting the bottom up approach for influencing society or ideas. This entails emphasizing independent thought, probing ideas and cultivating disinterested reasoning.

So for other personalities lets say ENP's, they want to project open-mindedness(Ne) in order for traditions and systems to be comprehended(Si). This idea I think is similar to drenths: http://personalityjunkie.com/05/dominant-inferior-function-dynamics-healthy-vs-unhealthy/

“From the Top of the Stack Down”: A Less Direct, But More Sustainable Means of Satisfying the Inferior "
​

 

[TBerg]

in a good or in a bad way?

Definitely good. Like a prescribed forest fire ravaging all of the dead brush.

 

[nanook]

glad to hear that.

okay, so the following is not meant to be a Ti portrayal at all, neither is it commentary on grayman specifically. it's simply my own perspective and struggle with many people who have specific gifts, that i lack, lines of intelligence, that are weak in myself. could be anyone.

i feel i should post this, because grayman has raised the subject of the difficulty of feeling eye to eye with people, when doing some exchange.



the only way someone can be higher than you is in a real world hierarchy where someone has power or privileges.

everything else is just fantasy, and you can become responsible for your fantasies, when you make them conscious.

a typical fantasy is created, when you want to be in a relationship with someone, but you have nothing to give to the person, but the person can give a lot to you, because they are more evolved, so they are very precious to you.

now you are the one who puts the demand onto yourself, to be or appear like that other person, to play on their level which equals the demand for them to play on the 'same' level, whichever that is.

due to this demand you don't simply feel unneeded, which is a reality, you also feel shorter/lower than you "should" be. and it distracts you from perceiving, that you are welcome, meaning the other person doesn't need you, but enjoys sharing with you.

the twisted shadow story in your unconscious mind/inner child is: "this person should appreciate me more, so that i can exist on their level, but instead they put me down a notch, by not appreciating any of what i have to offer. they think they are too good for me."

you just have to accept that you can't bind this person to yourself, because you have nothing for them, therefore that person won't stay around forever, to please you with their advanced gifts.

it's still disappointing, but now the levels are out of your mind. the other person OWNS more stuff to give, but she IS a fleeting friend who shares with you, some of what she HAS, from eye to eye.

real levels (of development) are something people HAVE.
it's a collection of perspectives.
nobody IS on a level. that's just simple language.

how can you simply receive, like an innocent child, instead of demanding a relationship, like a partner?

with that partner fantasy in your mind, you are convinced that simply receiving would be more selfish, than DEMANDING a whole trading-relationship.

in reality, simply receiving is not selfish, it's SELF-absorbed innocence. we have learned, that this simple state is bad, because in a world of trading, you can't survive like that.

you have come to feel that it's really important, that you PULL everyone into a relationship, a dependency on you. and you call it "them being on your level".

and you fantasize, that we, as a society, would be better of if we would not acknowledge any levels. then, maybe, everyone could be pulled into a dependency on you and everyone would therefore be a reliable source of trading goods for you.

but this is not necessary, because natural people enjoy sharing what flows out of their creativity, even when there is no idea of threatening dependency, of being trapped in the same boat.

 

[TBerg]

Yeah, I always feel like a charity case.

 

[Polaris]

From my own POV, Fe doesn't like getting too personal re. emotions as it is indeed, inferior. By accepting this, Ti is able to manipulate as a compensatory function, coupled with Si. Fe inferior can therefore be regarded as cold. It will rarely rise to the surface unless it sees a direct connection/identification. It may then just burst out in a rather clumsy fashion, and retract immediately as emotions are floating on the surface, leeving a feeling of immense vulnerability. As it retracts, it leaves a memory that is stored for later use; a resource that can be re-analysed and understood as part of development. If Fe was not encouraged in early years, the INTP will indeed struggle further down the track from lack of experience.

If Fe was injured, it will manifest negatively and remain envious and contemptuous (as nanook pointed out) of expressed emotion as it is unable to do the same; any attempt to raise to that level of expression will only reinforce the memory of humiliation as long as one identifies with ego (what is unconsciously built by external influences).

It requires one to work against one's own humanity to change as the ego becomes obvious and a source of a fatalist nihilistic outlook.

 

[StevenM]

About Ti's and their disgust for 'attention seekers':

The way I see it - they value 'objective' feelings, not subjective feelings.

Something objective being something that is irrefutably in consensus with others. Being sad because your mom died is something everyone can 'agree' with. Tell a Ti/Fe your mom just died, and I can assure you, they'll understand and they won't be cold-hearted.

Something subjective, being something that is in total consensus with yourself, and most of the time, not agreeable with other people. In fact, subjective users thrive on that. With Ti, having a way of thinking that is not congruent with others means -> discovery.

So just for an example, you come onto a forum of Ti's, and you give off the impression of negative emotions, for a reason not congruent among everyone else. "This forum gets to me because everyone is so cold-hearted and not caring" (for example). This is not an objective way to feel. For sure, it is in consensus with yourself, but everyone else looks at each other and can't understand; "that other forum member doesn't feel that way, and this other doesn't either. I don't feel that way either. That pisses us off because we don't understand what you're talking about."

I dunno, I wouldn't say that just because feeling is in inferior, that thinkers can't and don't understand how to feel. I think there isn't enough credit to their feeling ability. It just has to be for objective reasons that are understandable.

 

[nanook]

The way I see it - they value 'objective' feelings, not subjective feelings.

Something objective being something that is irrefutably in consensus with others. Being sad because your mom died is something everyone can 'agree' with. Tell a Ti/Fe your mom died, and I can assure you, they'll understand and they won't be cold-hearted.

Something subjective, being something that is in total consensus with yourself, and most of the time, not agreeable with other people. In fact, subjective users thrive on that. With Ti, having a way of thinking that is not congruent with others means -> discovery.

i think i can agree with that. but it would be boring to reduce Fe to what it would write on it's front door porch. after all, nothing is really objective and i like to stalk the shadows.

"This forum gets to me because everyone is so cold-hearted and not caring" (for example). This is not an objective way to feel.

it's not? i can picture an enfj saying just that.

personally i can enjoy the silence of people who are not caring about me, because i avoid relationship. in my understanding, because of Fi sensibilities. this is extremely subjective. i like being appreciated, but being cared about can quickly scare the shit out of me. it's like now i am responsible for pulling myself out of hell, just to make you happy, i mean so you can quit caring about me and care about yourself again, as it is your job (from Fi perspective)? but Fi is sort of comfortable in hell. it's one of the few places that won't freeze in winter.

 

[Jennywocky]

You just provided affirmation.

That's because he wasn't being manipulative.

or wait... WAS HE???

 

[dark+matters]

Wow; nanook really has some interesting insights here! I can really relate to what he was saying about that immature conception of emotion in Ti doms. I have only met two people who I'm pretty sure have to be INTPs. They differed in education, economic status, and culture quite a bit. Both were about 30 and male. They seemed to have many similar ways of approaching emotion. However, the one on the computer more often who was less well educated was much less pro-social and less comfortable with strong emotion and differences between people than the wealthier INTP who spent more time off-line. I think that social support has much to do with empathy and comfort with one's emotions. I have very distinct memories of being a rather extreme INTP when I was under 13 years of age. I totally had all those issues with being unable to analyze or be aware of emotion in myself or others. It wasn't until I had to interact with tons of NFs that I developed a sense of reality about intrapersonal emotion and developed the ability to empathize with myself and therefore others. Staying off the internet and forcing myself to get to know a wide variety of people was essential. I think that some of the immature behavior observed on this or any forum or social media site is partly due to too much internet usage and not enough socialization.

 

[Teffnology]

That's because he wasn't being manipulative.

or wait... WAS HE???

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_mr_burns_evil_7487.gif


My evil plan is working! Muuuhahaaaaha!

 

[StevenM]

it's not? i can picture an enfj saying just that.

Ok, ok, it was a bad example. Perhaps that example has both examples of objective feeling, and subjective feeling.

"This forum is cold and unfeeling" is objective. That's a judgement we all can agree on.

However, personal feelings attributed to that is subjective. Letting it get to you because so and so, or 'loving it' because so and so(which-ever is your pick) is only a judgement in consensual agreement with yourself.

I was trying to provide a pure example of a subjective feeling, (something that isn't understood by people who are more objective feelers). But that isn't going to be easy to come up with.

 

[Bock]

and not enough socialization.

Exposure invariably leads to misanthropy.

Unless you're insane.

*x-files theme*

 

[Jennywocky]

Exposure invariably leads to misanthropy.

Unless you're insane.

*x-files theme*

The X-Files might come back.
(dear god it's like the second coming of jay-sus!)

 

[Grayman]

I am guilty of the condition you describe that my Fe inferiority causes behavior that I myself don't care for in others. Seeking admiration and attention to appease my ego and feel that the products of my Ti-Ne are being recognized. Like I am doing with this post haha. I guess it is a form of social manipulation because it is how I attempt to commandeer social situations to feel adequately connected. I appologize for having contributed to this issue and hope to be more aware in future situations. Thank you for your insight.

Now I might I understand why INTPs tend to not like dogs or children as these things are attention seekers... Maybe way off base...

Personally I am not of the opinion that you should be apologizing to them. Yes obsessive amounts of this can be damaging to yourself but their judgments of this behavior are unfounded and childish as well.

People who do this behavior need guidance not to be ostracized and avoided like the plague. I don't hold you responsible for how I react to you. If a person needs attention I am perfectly capable of giving them an adequate amount and it is not because they manipulated me but because I recognize value in interaction and the growth emotionally and not just 'good ideas' that can come of it.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Now I might I understand why INTPs tend to not like dogs or children as these things are attention seekers... Maybe way off base...

Personally I am not of the opinion that you should be apologizing to them. Yes obsessive amounts of this can be damaging to yourself but their judgments of this behavior are unfounded and childish as well.

People who do this behavior need guidance not to be ostracized and avoided like the plague. I don't hold you responsible for how I react to you. If a person needs attention I am perfectly capable of giving them an adequate amount and it is not because they manipulated me but because I recognize value in interaction and the growth emotionally and not just 'good ideas' that can come of it.

children are awesome, i know because of some introverted function that is holistic, analytical and logical. i know for one that it's healthy to treat them with dignity, respect and care and to view them as bundles of possibilities rather than annoyance. i'm naturally good with children; they seem to pick up on my egalitarian attitude toward them and being treated as persons in interaction, not recepients of special treatment by way of hyperbolic scripted charades derived from strange cultural conventions. people are born with truth and children are sources of wisdom. children subconsciously perceive derogatory attitude and it causes distrust in them. the stereotype is that adults should master and teach children, and it pervades even most seemingly warm parenthoods; arrogance, self-righteousness. the truth is that the learning experience is at the very least mutual. children ought to be shown utmost reverence and humility, as portals into the future. they will not abuse it - it will not get to their heads. negligence, not "curling" is what fuels later-life megalomania, narcissism and antisociality. "curling" is correlated only in being a common compensation for negligence. there are no "spoilt" children and there is never a justification for harshness, unexplained command or "setting limits" in parenting. i've come to believe there is no "problem" of parenting; no dilemma. no trade-off, no balancing feat between permissive and prohibitive. it is a thing of purity. simple mutuality will produce a healthy, compassionate, moral offspring.

every time a child does something "wrong" it unknowingly delivers a deep and succinct criticism on the external constructs, the corruption of humanity.

for all i know i've been using/engaging/following Ti to reach these conclusions. perhaps nanook would differ. could be Fi or Ni, maybe even Si though that doesn't align as smoothly.