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Faith illustrated

EndogenousRebel

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^ neat video that illustrates the idea. I believe I've seen clips from this movie shared before on INTPf.

Is there anything transitive or virtuous about faith itself?

The video illustrates an example of faith, in a religious context, but it's explination does not block it into that context, and niether does Kiekergaard.

Faith is just what happens when we act and there is no reason.

Thus it seems like Faith would be present in moments of pure desperation and submission to the elements.

This to me throws into question a lot the inherent badness or goodness of faith. Faith can be present when we explore. Faith can also be present in dire situations.
 

Black Rose

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When my dog was taken on Dec 31, at least 20 things happened that week that all needed to happen in a row or she would be dead right now. If I had not been in the right place at the right time and done the right thing she would not be here. After that, the stress caused my 16 years of depression to vanish and I can function better.
 

Black Rose

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The old word faith means to trust.

Reason is defined as Jesus being the lo-gos meaning the source of cause of some object. the intelligible cause of something, sound, word, intent.

God has a reason for us, so we must trust God.

faith in God, is about learning what God knows inherently.

Spider-Man Meets The One Above All | Comics Explained

 

EndogenousRebel

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Well, as described in the video, Faith should only apply to actions. Knowledge of faith in this sense is not what is being talked about, unless there is an action guided without reason.

Any 5 year old can keep on asking why over and over again, and eventually you can't give a meaningful response. You simply trust, you have faith in your impression of the world.

We however do not see that as faith, we see it as something that is just a given about life.

Faith is a necessary thing we must do in order for us to believe in causality.

Rather at the finest/most precises unit of analysis, we simply have faith that the world is coherent and that we can even cohere in our minds.

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This description of faith is marked with uncertainty, and by association fear. In that verse it is implied that fear is good, as it is something that allows you to salvage yourself. Which is not how typically people see things. Faith thus is something that gives initiative to growth as it is preceded by fear and uncertainty, not necessarily through love and kindness, but also through brutal exposure of reality.
 

Black Rose

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preceded by fear and uncertainty

2 Corinthians 12:9 says, "But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me".

Fear is instinctive in knowing what not to do. Because it is about something much, much stronger than you that is in charge. Putting faith in God is a way to let go of fear without succumbing to pride or arrogance. And it makes you better at gauging real fears. Faith can overcome anger sickness and death. But you need to be pushed to your limit. You cannot stop till it is all gone but this requires you to push through and not stop acting in the face of anything. You must believe no matter what happens and be forever vigilant with temperance and resist temptation.

weakness is all in the mind.
 

ZenRaiden

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Well my interpretation is "those" with least of faith need it the most.
I think good example is how people pray so much, or how people who don't believe go to church so much etc.
The less you believe the more you need to affirm the belief.
If you believe in say God, then you believe in God. Period.
There is nothing that could shake that belief.

But for me there are degrees and nuances to beliefs.
You can believe something absurd.
You can believe something rational.
You can believe many things in between.
Ultimately how much we believe in something and how that given belief shapes our thinking, or whether we update belief system is up to us.
I am pretty much proponent that beliefs are integral part of life, but also its important to upgrade/update your beliefs and have them consistent.
So I cannot really be lets say religious.
Religions are not consistent or concerned with what is right.
 

Black Rose

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Religion is concerned with the nature of reality and what to do about it.

Belief in something is not necessarily concerned with what to do.

I believe trees exist, what does that mean? not much.

Yet if I believe God wants me to do x, am I compelled to do it?

God is supposed to know best, so disobedience is against my best interests.

But if God tells me nothing what should I do?

Then it becomes about reflecting on God's hidden intentions.

If I am here what would God want me to do?

That thought must always be kept in mind.
 

Black Rose

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people that go to church

They go to feel Gods' presence

and to be with people

it is to re-enforce an emotion and a belief

mostly it is to be programmed in what the core belief of the particular church is.

x is true because reason y - believe in y because of x and do so when z happens

so it is about both God telling you what to think by the authority of the church

and build that relationship with God by that church authority.

which is what happens when humans speak for God because God allows it?

Normally a person just asks God instead of asking other people what to do.

But people are lonely so go to church instead.

Talking to God is hard on your own.

Most can't do it.
 

ZenRaiden

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Talking to God is hard on your own.
Eh, why not? God already knows everything.
He is everywhere.
Do people go to church to level up some magic power, perhaps.
I don't judge.
 

Black Rose

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Talking to God is hard on your own.
Eh, why not? God already knows everything.
He is everywhere.
Do people go to church to level up some magic power, perhaps.
I don't judge.

What does it mean to feel God's presence?

Seems that everyone I know who prays feels happy or comforted.

And this means it feels good for them to be around people that feel the same way.
 

scorpiomover

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^ neat video that illustrates the idea.
Seems to not answer the questions posed in the video at all.

I believe I've seen clips from this movie shared before on INTPf.
I don't know why INTPs would like this movie, as it doesn't seem to appeal to reason and logic at all, when INTPs are supposed to be interested in reason and logic.

Is there anything transitive or virtuous about faith itself?
Yes, or no-one would have ever been interested in faith at all, particularly since Xianity started in the time of the Romans, and the Greeks already came up with plenty of philosophy, and so the early Xians didn't need faith to answer the questions of philosophy, such as how to live a good life, or how to run a good society, as both those questions had been answered by Aristotle and Plato.

The video illustrates an example of faith, in a religious context, but it's explination does not block it into that context, and niether does Kiekergaard.

Faith is just what happens when we act and there is no reason.

Thus it seems like Faith would be present in moments of pure desperation and submission to the elements.
That too would not make sense. There are plenty of situations when children act without reason. There are also plenty of situations when people act without reason, such as when they choose what food to eat at a restaurant when it doesn't make any real difference to them.

But when people are in moments of desperation, they feel desperate to achieve some goal, to keep living, to save loved ones, to find love, and cannot let go of that goal, even though it seems like a pointless exercise in futility. So they try whatever seems to be the one thing that is most likely to achieve their goals. So desperation is an act of pure reason.

Submission to the elements is also a situation where people act reasonably: when there is a tornado, people stay indoors in basements, where it is most safe. When lightning is outside, people stay indoors, where they are least likely to be hit by lightning. These are actions of reason.

This to me throws into question a lot the inherent badness or goodness of faith.
Of course it does. You've just described 2 situations in which people are forced to be reasonable, and you claim that these are situations in which faith is most present. Thus, faith must be that which happens when people are the most reasonable of all.
 

scorpiomover

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Is there anything transitive or virtuous about faith itself?
Yes.

A) There are 3 important concepts:

A1) Knowledge: Imagine you are Daniel Russo in "The Karate Kid". You come to a new town. The ex of a girl you like and who likes you, has it in for you. He and his friends are good at Karate. He and his friends can beat you up any time they like. That is certain. That is true. That, you know.

A2) Belief: The local maintenance guy in your building is a little old Japanese man. He thinks he can teach you to defend yourself against the bullies. He seems to be really good at fighting. You don't really know if he can teach you how to fight, or if it will be any good at fighting off several bullies who are much bigger than he is. But, you think there's a good chance that he's right, enough that it's worth the effort. You BELIEVE in Mr Miyagi.

A3) Faith: You're in a fight with the bullies. They're more powerful than you. They've got you on the ground, and are kicking you mercilessly. It seems like all the things Mr Miyagi taught you, are worthless. You're upset. You're angry. You're afraid. You can't even think straight.

But you remember that at one stage, you thought that Mr Miyagi really was a good teacher, and how he taught you to do things you never thought possible. So you tell yourself "even though now, it seems crazy to do what he said, I know that in the past, I thought what he taught me was the best way to defend myself, so I'm going to stick with what he said NOW, anyway, despite my pain, my fears and all my doubts."

So, even though they're still kicking you, you calm yourself, steady your breathing, and do what your Sensei taught you. If what you remember was correct, and what he taught you does work, you will defeat them.

That is what faith means.

It means "fidelis", loyalty, to that which you knew in the past was true, even when in the present, your emotions and your doubts now cloud your judgement and make you think of giving up your path.

B) That is why people who do not cheat on their spouses are called "faithful". When you are first in love, you are sure that you don't want to be with anyone else. After years of marriage, you have a wife and kids, and are sure of the value of keeping that.

Then your life turns to sh*t, and you meet a pretty young woman who wants you. You don't see any point in sticking with your wife and your kids.

But if you have faith, then you remember how things used to be between you and your wife, and you are reasonably sure that even though it doesn't make sense to you now, it did in the past, and you think it's worth sticking to what you were sure of in the past.

So you don't throw your marriage away. You say "thanks, but I'm married." You go home to your wife and kids, in the hope, the belief, that what you used to be certain of in the past, is still true, and your feelings on the matter now, are just temporary feelings that will soon change.

If you are not faithful, you just move on.

C) The video's author states that Kierkegaard writes "Faith begins precisely where thought stops".

Note that he does not say "where reason stops", but "where thought stops". He lived in a time when David Hume wrote about the difference between "thoughts" and "feelings".

He means "When you have your thoughts, you can reason well, then you do not need faith to guide you. Faith only begins to matter, once you cannot think straight anymore, and what used to make perfect sense to you, now seems to be pointless. That is when you either give up and lose all of your past efforts, or you persevere and see the road you began, to the end."

The video illustrates an example of faith, in a religious context, but it's explination does not block it into that context, and niether does Kiekergaard.
I have analysed the video. But I'll leave that for another post.
 
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