Failing school

[Dimensional Transition]

I'm close to grade retention, it kind of makes me sad. I know I could probably easily make this year, if I paid attention. But I can't seem to do that. I got a 2.9/10 for economy today. I think my average grade for economy is a 4.5 now... Last year I ended the year with a 7.5/10 for economy, and it's not like I got dumber this year...

Any advice for an INTP who gets extremely depressed from school, to the point of not being able to get good grades anymore? I can't even read the damn books anymore. It's so mind numbing. I can't stand sitting in class day in day out. I only have 1-3 years left(depends what level of school I end up on if I do have to do this year over...). But my motivation has completely died out. Especially now the sun is shining, I just crave to go outside and take pictures, go to parks with friends, stuff like that. You know the feeling.

4/10 for maths
4.5/10 for economy
5/10 for french
5/10 for biology

I love biology... It's horrible to get shitty grades for something that does fascinate you. Maths I have always sucked at, I don't mind too much about that. French isn't that hard, the lessons are just boring as hell, same goes for economy. Actually, economy is usually easy as hell to me, yet I can't learn anything new anymore.

I'm doing the highest level of school possible in the Netherlands(minus Greek and Latin, I dropped those classes already). I can make it to next year if I have one 4/10 and one 5/10, but I seriously doubt if I can somehow get the motivation to remove two other bad grades.

 

[ElvenVeil]

well... chances are that you fail really...
But if you care about your school and what grades you get, then you need to enforce diciplin upon yourself.. my advice there would be to start turning off your computer; with the computer out of the way studying may seem more attractive.

(a computer is the bane of dicipline and studying)

 

[The Gopher]

well... chances are that you fail really...
But if you care about your school and what grades you get, then you need to enforce diciplin upon yourself.. my advice there would be to start turning off your computer; with the computer out of the way studying may seem more attractive.

(a computer is the bane of dicipline and studying)

^ Unless your an IT student, then it is the complete and utter destruction of discipline and studying. But I understand where you come from. I kinda failed passed my way though school and am at the stage were I am not really qualified to do anything and am loosing interest in my course. As for advice if your going to be unmotivated be a genius.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Damn it, I knew it...

Is there any way to make it more fun, at least?

 

[thoumyvision]

You sound exactly like me when I was in high school. I eventually dropped out and got a GED (a test Americans can take which is the equivalent to a high school degree). I wish, however, that I had instead learned the system, and, more importantly, figured out how to use the system to my advantage.

As an INTP you have a huge advantage over many other students in your ability to understand the concepts and ideas behind what you're learning almost immediately. This leads to your boredom because school is designed to accommodate people with sensing preference. Sensors require repetition and rote memorization far more than intuitives. You probably finish tests in 1/3 or less of the time available, and you end up sitting there slightly embarrassed because everyone else is sitting there working furiously away. This is because sensors will read a test question 4 or 5 times before they feel they understand it, and will still be afraid they haven't. Intuitives will look at the question and go "oh yeah, that's the answer". The sensors do have an advantage in thoroughness, they're not going to miss anything. You have probably gotten a tests back before and realized that you missed a question because you missed a small point of data, not because you didn't understand the question.

Anyway, understand that sensors do actually need all that busy homework and classwork to learn. It sucks to be them, but it also sucks to be us because we have to sit there working out problems we already fully understand again and again. I imagine that's exactly where your frustration comes from.

For an INTP the highest form of evil, the highest form of injustice, is wasted effort. To have to do work which is supposed to teach you something you've already learned is the most awful thing we can think of.

One of the most important things you can do is first understand they why of your difficulties, and then explain them to the people who matter, your parents and teachers.
You will invariably come across those who simply look at you as lazy and aren't willing to accept any other theory. If they're a teacher you might just have to suck it up in their class, but I'm sure you have several teachers who are NF's or NT's and they will understand!

One of our biggest weaknesses is our desire to figure out a problem on our own, without talking about it to anyone. We cannot utilize our Ti properly without information, and our information gathering function, Ne, is extroverted. Sometimes those critical points of data we miss are contained within other people, we have to talk to them to get them out


So, how to get by? Learn the system, then cheat the system. I don't mean do anything unethical, I mean figure out shortcuts within the system which allow you to utilize the fact that you come to the understanding of the material presented much faster than your peers.

When you talk to your teachers -- one on one, this is very important -- ask them to ask you questions during class to test your understanding. Then, if you demonstrate proper understanding maybe you can be allowed to complete the homework for the class during the rest of the lecture. I honestly don't know if this will work or not but it doesn't hurt to ask.
The goal here is not to avoid work, it's to do your work in the most efficient manner possible, freeing up time to do other, more pleasant things.

At home multi-task. This will require talking to your parents first. Do your homework while watching television. For most other personality types this would be the most awful advice ever, but you already understand the material. For you the work is entirely brainless, so do something to engage your mind while you work.

We usually work in highly productive spurts, which means that when a larger project like a paper comes along we look at it as a hugely daunting task. You don't need to complete it all at once, in fact this is a terrible idea at first. Write a sentence or two and then go do something else. Just make sure you come back to it! Eventually something in the subject will hopefully tickle your fancy and a couple hours later you'll look up and realize you've finished your paper with no effort at all. That is the goal: no effort. Because from everyone else's perspective the effort you put in is entirely unimportant as long as the work is good.

Hope this helps.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Do ou need all these qualifications for the type of job you want to do?

Maybe a less academic route would suit you more

There are many different types of intelligence. Just because you don't get good grades doesn't mean your not intelligent (I guess you already know that).

How about photography? You said you just want to go outside and take pictures. What if that was your job?

I'm not suggesting you quit. I'm just suggesting an option for you to consider

 

[thoumyvision]

Do ou need all these qualifications for the type of job you want to do?

Maybe a less academic route would suit you more

There are many different types of intelligence. Just because you don't get good grades doesn't mean your not intelligent (I guess you already know that).

How about photography? You said you just want to go outside and take pictures. What if that was your job?

I'm not suggesting you quit. I'm just suggesting an option for you to consider

He's 16, I'm willing to bet he's in the Dutch equivalent of high school

 

[Poetic Justice]

He's 16, I'm willing to bet he's in the Dutch equivalent of high school

D'oh

*facepalm*

Ignore me. Stay in school, don't do drugs etc, etc

 

[Dimensional Transition]

You sound exactly like me when I was in high school. I eventually dropped out and got a GED (a test Americans can take which is the equivalent to a high school degree). I wish, however, that I had instead learned the system, and, more importantly, figured out how to use the system to my advantage.

Spoiler

As an INTP you have a huge advantage over many other students in your ability to understand the concepts and ideas behind what you're learning almost immediately. This leads to your boredom because school is designed to accommodate people with sensing preference. Sensors require repetition and rote memorization far more than intuitives. You probably finish tests in 1/3 or less of the time available, and you end up sitting there slightly embarrassed because everyone else is sitting there working furiously away. This is because sensors will read a test question 4 or 5 times before they feel they understand it, and will still be afraid they haven't. Intuitives will look at the question and go "oh yeah, that's the answer". The sensors do have an advantage in thoroughness, they're not going to miss anything. You have probably gotten a tests back before and realized that you missed a question because you missed a small point of data, not because you didn't understand the question.

Anyway, understand that sensors do actually need all that busy homework and classwork to learn. It sucks to be them, but it also sucks to be us because we have to sit there working out problems we already fully understand again and again. I imagine that's exactly where your frustration comes from.

For an INTP the highest form of evil, the highest form of injustice, is wasted effort. To have to do work which is supposed to teach you something you've already learned is the most awful thing we can think of.

One of the most important things you can do is first understand they why of your difficulties, and then explain them to the people who matter, your parents and teachers.
You will invariably come across those who simply look at you as lazy and aren't willing to accept any other theory. If they're a teacher you might just have to suck it up in their class, but I'm sure you have several teachers who are NF's or NT's and they will understand!

One of our biggest weaknesses is our desire to figure out a problem on our own, without talking about it to anyone. We cannot utilize our Ti properly without information, and our information gathering function, Ne, is extroverted. Sometimes those critical points of data we miss are contained within other people, we have to talk to them to get them out


So, how to get by? Learn the system, then cheat the system. I don't mean do anything unethical, I mean figure out shortcuts within the system which allow you to utilize the fact that you come to the understanding of the material presented much faster than your peers.

When you talk to your teachers -- one on one, this is very important -- ask them to ask you questions during class to test your understanding. Then, if you demonstrate proper understanding maybe you can be allowed to complete the homework for the class during the rest of the lecture. I honestly don't know if this will work or not but it doesn't hurt to ask.
The goal here is not to avoid work, it's to do your work in the most efficient manner possible, freeing up time to do other, more pleasant things.

At home multi-task. This will require talking to your parents first. Do your homework while watching television. For most other personality types this would be the most awful advice ever, but you already understand the material. For you the work is entirely brainless, so do something to engage your mind while you work.

We usually work in highly productive spurts, which means that when a larger project like a paper comes along we look at it as a hugely daunting task. You don't need to complete it all at once, in fact this is a terrible idea at first. Write a sentence or two and then go do something else. Just make sure you come back to it! Eventually something in the subject will hopefully tickle your fancy and a couple hours later you'll look up and realize you've finished your paper with no effort at all. That is the goal: no effort. Because from everyone else's perspective the effort you put in is entirely unimportant as long as the work is good.

Hope this helps.

Oh god. I totally understand. This is exactly what my problem is. I just want to understand how the whole system of some subject hangs together, how it roughly all works, then move on. I hate small bits of data. I always feel like I fail a lot of tests just because I wanted to understand HOW IT ALL WORKS, not all those tiny unimportant bits. Some teachers are more NT-y, so they make tests more suitable for me, usually including lots of multiple-choice like tests.(Which are usually the classes at which I score pretty good)
Ironically, when a subject I know a lot about comes by, I tend to fuck the tests up completely... Because I've taught myself completely different definitions and such. This is especially applicable in Biology, where lots of scientists have different opinions about things, and you just have to learn that one thing your teacher/book 'believes' in... Often very outdated information, and the teachers can't stand it when they find that out. They never seem to acknowledge their mistakes, quite annoying.

Do ou need all these qualificationsfor the type of job you want to do?

Maybe a less academic route would suit you more

There are many different types of intelligence. Just because you don't get good grades doesn't mean your not intelligent (I guess you already know that).

How about photography? You said you just want to go outside and take pictures. What if that was your job?

I'm not suggesting you quit. I'm just suggesting an option for you to consider

That's another thing I've been thinking about. I don't have to do this level to get into a psychology/art career... The level I'm doing is called 'preparing scientific education'. They want you to make a lot of calculations, approach everything in a linear scientific manner. Which is good and fun occasionally I guess, but not all the time. I love some chaos and openness, which is totally not what my 'level' of schooling is about.

If I were to 'move down' a level, I would be doing 'higher general preparing education'... Which is still slightly 'above average'. Most of my friends do this level, too. I feel more at home there.
The reason I'm using quotation marks is because I don't really feel like 'level' is a good word... I know a lot of intelligent people who are doing the lowest possible level of schooling. The whole 'level' business just feels very unfair.

My parents and teachers just keep getting angry though, especially my mother. 'I HAD TO WORK HARD FOR MY EDUCATION, AND YOU'VE GOT THE BRAINS BUT YOU DON'T DO SHIT.' Needless to say, she doesn't get what I'm saying at all.

 

[Maniceureka]

Spoiler

You sound exactly like me when I was in high school. I eventually dropped out and got a GED (a test Americans can take which is the equivalent to a high school degree). I wish, however, that I had instead learned the system, and, more importantly, figured out how to use the system to my advantage.

As an INTP you have a huge advantage over many other students in your ability to understand the concepts and ideas behind what you're learning almost immediately. This leads to your boredom because school is designed to accommodate people with sensing preference. Sensors require repetition and rote memorization far more than intuitives. You probably finish tests in 1/3 or less of the time available, and you end up sitting there slightly embarrassed because everyone else is sitting there working furiously away. This is because sensors will read a test question 4 or 5 times before they feel they understand it, and will still be afraid they haven't. Intuitives will look at the question and go "oh yeah, that's the answer". The sensors do have an advantage in thoroughness, they're not going to miss anything. You have probably gotten a tests back before and realized that you missed a question because you missed a small point of data, not because you didn't understand the question.

Anyway, understand that sensors do actually need all that busy homework and classwork to learn. It sucks to be them, but it also sucks to be us because we have to sit there working out problems we already fully understand again and again. I imagine that's exactly where your frustration comes from.

For an INTP the highest form of evil, the highest form of injustice, is wasted effort. To have to do work which is supposed to teach you something you've already learned is the most awful thing we can think of.

One of the most important things you can do is first understand they why of your difficulties, and then explain them to the people who matter, your parents and teachers.
You will invariably come across those who simply look at you as lazy and aren't willing to accept any other theory. If they're a teacher you might just have to suck it up in their class, but I'm sure you have several teachers who are NF's or NT's and they will understand!

One of our biggest weaknesses is our desire to figure out a problem on our own, without talking about it to anyone. We cannot utilize our Ti properly without information, and our information gathering function, Ne, is extroverted. Sometimes those critical points of data we miss are contained within other people, we have to talk to them to get them out


So, how to get by? Learn the system, then cheat the system. I don't mean do anything unethical, I mean figure out shortcuts within the system which allow you to utilize the fact that you come to the understanding of the material presented much faster than your peers.

When you talk to your teachers -- one on one, this is very important -- ask them to ask you questions during class to test your understanding. Then, if you demonstrate proper understanding maybe you can be allowed to complete the homework for the class during the rest of the lecture. I honestly don't know if this will work or not but it doesn't hurt to ask.
The goal here is not to avoid work, it's to do your work in the most efficient manner possible, freeing up time to do other, more pleasant things.

At home multi-task. This will require talking to your parents first. Do your homework while watching television. For most other personality types this would be the most awful advice ever, but you already understand the material. For you the work is entirely brainless, so do something to engage your mind while you work.

We usually work in highly productive spurts, which means that when a larger project like a paper comes along we look at it as a hugely daunting task. You don't need to complete it all at once, in fact this is a terrible idea at first. Write a sentence or two and then go do something else. Just make sure you come back to it! Eventually something in the subject will hopefully tickle your fancy and a couple hours later you'll look up and realize you've finished your paper with no effort at all. That is the goal: no effort. Because from everyone else's perspective the effort you put in is entirely unimportant as long as the work is good.

Hope this helps.

Well, this is the reason why I actually believe in the MBTI test. When someone describes my personality and abilities this accurately.

I think we should have internet classes on this forum.

 

[Bird]

Dim, reason with yourself and use your will power.
It's why we humans have it, we force ourselves to
do shit we don't want to every day.

I know, I know what shitty advice but at this point
I think it's the only way you're going to do it, if
you want to.

 

[a detached retina]

I have to trick myself into being interested by finding something within the subject. If it's economy, figure out the particular theory you will be tested on and then go about your life seeing if you can apply that theory to different aspects. (Does the state of the INTP forum follow the laws of supply and demand?) <--- of course that's oversimplified as I'm sure you're covering more advanced and specific topics but you see the point. Each contributor has a certain productivity, writing wise, and has a certain demand, reading wise. If nobody wrote anything the forum wouldn't exist, and if nobody read anything (no demand) the forum would also eventually cease to exist. On a large scale the amount of posts is sort of set by supply and demand since if I post something and nobody reads it and replies I will probably not post another thing again. If there are more posts than I can read I won't read all of them since they exceed my demand. And only the good read-worthy posts get a lot of replies.

Of course this is a very personal and specific strategy which works for me, but the idea of tricking yourself should be of some help.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm close to grade retention, it kind of makes me sad. I know I could probably easily make this year, if I paid attention. But I can't seem to do that. I got a 2.9/10 for economy today. I think my average grade for economy is a 4.5 now... Last year I ended the year with a 7.5/10 for economy, and it's not like I got dumber this year...

Any advice for an INTP who gets extremely depressed from school, to the point of not being able to get good grades anymore? I can't even read the damn books anymore. It's so mind numbing. I can't stand sitting in class day in day out. I only have 1-3 years left(depends what level of school I end up on if I do have to do this year over...). But my motivation has completely died out. Especially now the sun is shining, I just crave to go outside and take pictures, go to parks with friends, stuff like that. You know the feeling.

Dude.

Imagine everyone leaving your ass behind, making waves in the world, while you're still playing in that same little puddle. Don't you want to prove yourself just as good as them? In fact, even better, for all the hurdles you had to get over? Don't give up so easily.


The most important piece of advice I can give you is to use your mood to your advantage. Start your home assignments in the same class that they're given, try to get all of them done, during classes, before the end of the school day. Don't read along with the class; read books, methodically, on your own, during class; ignore the teacher if the material is understandable, and self-study. Headphones. Energize yourself(aka socialize) inbetween classes, especially during lunch and nutrition(or the respectful equivalents).


Like thoumyvision said: Learn the system. Control the system.

 

[GYX_Kid]

As for advice if your going to be unmotivated be a genius.

what he said. when having no responsibilities, i tend to procrastinate with bullshit; yet when having some big project to get done i tend to procrastinate with the profound and creative endeavors i otherwise amen't in the mindset for. I WON'T BE JUDGED, I DO WHAT I WANT (for that wrong word too)

but if you think going the other route and trying to cultivate that thing called self-control is worth it given the current situation, i recommend calmly deciding to do something without any thought at all...in fact try to clear your mind of everything by pretending you're acting the part of a dumb ape. the first step before the comfortable habit forms is always the hardest, might as well get through it easily like it's nothing

it's all about what the most practical decision is. much easier said than done, but if no 'all-or-nothing' decision can be decided upon then a combination of the two is also possible.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

The most important piece of advice I can give you is to use your mood to your advantage. Start your home assignments in the same class that they're given, try to get all of them done, during classes, before the end of the school day. Don't read along with the class; read books, methodically, on your own, during class; ignore the teacher if the material is understandable, and self-study. Headphones. Energize yourself(aka socialize) inbetween classes, especially during lunch and nutrition(or the respectful equivalents).
.

Yeah, I've decided I'm just going to do that.

 

[P.H.]

I can relate to your story a lot. Just recently I'm out of high school and I had the same problems. They sent me to the middle level (havo, yep I'm also dutch) because of my lack of motivation, and that's where the problems started. I was very quick and hated the repetition and the mind numbing producing of what the teacher told you. I wanted to question everything and soon found out that teachers not only dislike that, but get uncomfortable if you confront them with a problem they can't solve in front of class. (which turned into some sort of malicious delight later on) (not that I was every teacher's horror. Just didn't like some of them and I think that was mutual.) (well actually I was just bored and couldn't handle some types of authority xD) (but mostly I was quiet and reserved and did my own thing)

Back on topic, I had to do a year over again and then I had one of my brightest insights. Due to low grades, and maybe a few other factors, most people thought I was dumb and I wanted to prove them otherwise. So I did my thing and got an average 8/10. (which really surprised some of the teachers, especially the ones that told me I shouldn't do math (B) etcetera) (which I stubbornly did choose because I like math)

And well... All I can say: high school sucks. You have to fight your way through it. I can tell you that university is WAY better. More focused on insight rather than mindless reproducing. I actually like school now. What got me through high school was doing whatever needed to be done and search for mental stimulation elsewhere. I remember learning japanese, reading books on physics and learning how to play guitar as the things that kept me happy. You must never forget to keep doing the things that you enjoy

If you feel like it, you can pm me. (I'm always in for a rant on the horrors of the dutch educational system)

(and then suddenly half of my post turned blue xD)