extraversion and introversion, neurological and jungian view

[naama]

Naturally its not all this simple in real life, but this is how it pretty much goes but there are things like dopamine and serotonin levels that affect this, but im not going to talk about those things now, do feel free to ask if you want.

any thoughts, questions or other comments?

Ps. its hand written because my computer is broken, so i have to use paper and phone.

Its time for people to forget the stupid generalizations of behavior that MBTI explains I and E with!

 

[Zionoxis]

So basically, the more you worry about the outside world and gain information, the more extroverted you are, when the more you analyze information already taken in, the more introverted you are?

 

[naama]

So basically, the more you worry about the outside world and gain information, the more extroverted you are, when the more you analyze information aationlready taken in, the more introverted you are?

Heres an explanation from jung lexicon to what E function does:

Empathy
An introjection of the object, based on the unconscious projection of subjective contents.

"Empathy presupposes a subjective attitude of confidence, or trustfulness towards the object. It is a readiness to meet the object halfway, a subjective assimilation that brings about a good understanding between subject and object, or at least simulates it. ["The Type Problem in Aesthetics," CW 6, par. 489.]"

In contrast to abstraction, associated with introversion, empathy corresponds to the attitude of extraversion.

"The man with the empathetic attitude finds himself . . . in a world that needs his subjective feeling to give it life and soul. He animates it with himself. [ Ibid., par. 492.] "

And introversion:

Abstraction
A form of mental activity by which a conscious content is freed from its association with irrelevant elements, similar to the process of differentiation.

"Abstraction is an activity pertaining to the psychological functions in general. There is an abstract thinking, just as there is abstract feeling, sensation, and intuition. Abstract thinking singles out the rational, logical qualities of a given content from its intellectually irrelevant components. Abstract feeling does the same with a content characterized by its feeling-values . . . . Abstract sensation would be aesthetic as opposed to sensuous sensation, and abstract intuition would be symbolic as opposed to fantastic intuition.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 678.]"

Jung related abstraction to introversion (analogous to empathy and extraversion).

"I visualize the process of abstraction as a withdrawal of libido from the object, as a backflow of value from the object into a subjective, abstract content. For me, therefore, abstraction amounts to an energic devaluation of the object. In other words, abstraction is an introverting movement of libido.[Ibid., par. 679.]"

To the extent that its purpose is to break the object’s hold on the subject, abstraction is an attempt to rise above the primitive state of participation mystique.

http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon

But E and I isnt just about this, this is how you create inner and outer object, sort of subjective understanding of something that you perceive. Its like creating two inner and outer objects(from the two introvertes functions and two extraverted functions, with INTP ofc Ti Si and Ne Fe) of same thing and combination of these the inner + outer objects is what you come conscious of.

But there is a little twist to this. When you create an object with differentiated(or developed) functions, you do it consciously. but when you use an undifferentiated function to create an object, you do it unconsciously. Also with two(or more) differentiated(conscious) functions, you are able to consciously check if the objects match, and leave one of these objects away(or put more weight over one) from the situation, if you think it needs to be done.

But having all four functions differentiated is no easy process, so thats usually not the case. so one to tree of these objects merges unconsciously to the final object.

You could also think this as looking at one thing from four different perspectives(T N S F), but only coming conscious of the combination(but with knowledge of functions, you might be able to separate these parts). for example if i look at my cat, im seeing that it is(S), analyzing it(T), i know that its worth alot to me(F) and if i see her meowing when i go to kitchen, i know her meowing like this certain way and in this certain situation came from her wanting food or if i see her at kitchen looking at me in living room in certain way, i know that if i go to kitchen, she will start meowing for food(N).

Now i dont see these things at separate parts when i go to kitchen and hear her meowing, instead i see these as one, my cat wanting food.

But there comes situations where its best to consciously see all 4 sides of the one thing, so that you can choose which to rely on this situation, so that i can concentrate on whats important in the situation and which to leave out, so that some of these perspectives(that dont fit to situation) wont dim my vision and so that im not projecting some unrelated associations to it.

But i think what really matters to fully understand this is to be able to see functioms as principles of inserting info to external world and to take out of it. because these principles are what create the perspectives.

Cba to write more now, hope you get something out of this. if it feels confusing i suggest reading this whole thing twice and then reading the op again. do ask if you are still confused.

Oh yea, its also about how much you relate to this internal or external object. extraverted types relate to external object more, because they are more conscious of it AND because they created it, their whole world is around this external object more, because they are more conscious of it. this is also why they might need more external validation, because they arent as aware of the internal objects. someone telling how good they look today, the words are the object to which they relate to.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Hope this helps:

Extraversion
Means an outward-turning of the libido (q.v.). With this concept I denote a manifest relatedness of subject to object in the sense of a positive movement of subjective interest towards the object. Everyone in the state of extraversion thinks, feels, and acts in relation to the object, and moreover in a direct and clearly observable fashion, so that no doubt can exist about his positive dependence upon the object. In a sense, therefore, extraversion is an outgoing transference of interest from the subject to the object. If it is an intellectual extraversion, the subject thinks himself into the object; if a feeling extraversion, then the subject feels himself into the object. The state of extraversion means a strong, if not exclusive, determination by the object. One should speak of an active extraversion when deliberately willed, and of a passive extraversion when the object compels it, i.e. attracts the interest of the subject of its own accord, even against the tatter's intention. Should the state of extraversion become habitual, the extroverted type (v. Type) appears.

Introversion
Means a turning inwards of the libido (q.v.), whereby a negative relation of subject to object is expressed. Interest does not move towards the object, but recedes towards the subject. Everyone whose attitude is introverted thinks, feels, and acts in a way that clearly demonstrates that the subject is the chief factor of motivation while the object at most receives only a secondary value. Introversion may possess either a more intellectual or more emotional character, just as it can be characterized by either intuition or sensation. Introversion is active, when the subject wills a certain seclusion in face of the object; it is passive when the subject is unable to restore again to the object the libido which is streaming back from it. When introversion is habitual, one speaks of an introverted type (v. Type).

Introjection is an extraverting process, since for this adjustment to the object a 'feeling-into', or possession of, the object is necessary. A passive and an active introjection may be discriminated: to the former belong the transference-processes in the treatment of the neuroses and, in general, all cases in which the object exercises an unconditional attraction upon the subject; while' feeling-into', regarded as a process of adaptation, should belong to the latter form.

- Psychological Types Ch. XI

 

[Jedi]

Very interesting stuff. How would the other 4 senses work?

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

A form of mental activity by which a conscious content is freed from its association with irrelevant elements, similar to the process of differentiation.

I was thinking basically his same thing today (though I've been told basically the same thing before).

Ti = remove inconsistencies, Fi = remove undesirable, Si = ?, Ni = ? (remove less worthwhile methods/ideas?)

I think (as Ni) my most intense periods of mental activity are when I come across an idea whose implications are such that many other lingering ideas can be ignored once and for all. The destruction is soothing.

@EyeSeeCold: I believe the mental process I described to nonetheless be black Intuition, in that it is an active process, based on making changes to objects (of perception - it is Nb creative, so the objects are imagined/represented rather than currently manifest in the field of external objects).

Fw base shows itself in that the real world implications are typically of an ethical, idealist nature. There is little active emoting - rather there is an ever present moral framework within which the outer world is interpreted.

 

[naama]

Very interesting stuff. How would the other 4 senses work?

I havent found any studies done with them, but i would think they work similar ways. there is somatosensory cortex and and audio cortex. but with smells its bit different. smells activate emotional areas directly(thats why you get so easily all emotional associations from smells than with hearing, touch or visual).

Also there is this area called angular gyrus, which combines touch, audio and visual using sort of metaphors, but thats a whole different thing.

 

[naama]

I was thinking basically his same thing today (though I've been told basically the same thing before).

Ti = remove inconsistencies, Fi = remove undesirable, Si = ?, Ni = ? (remove less worthwhile methods/ideas?)

I think (as Ni) my most intense periods of mental activity are when I come across an idea whose implications are such that many other lingering ideas can be ignored once and for all. The destruction is soothing.

@EyeSeeCold: I believe the mental process I described to nonetheless be black Intuition, in that it is an active process, based on making changes to objects (of perception - it is Nb creative, so the objects are imagined/represented rather than currently manifest in the field of external objects).

Fw base shows itself in that the real world implications are typically of an ethical, idealist nature. There is little active emoting - rather there is an ever present moral framework within which the outer world is interpreted.

Its not that Fi removes undesirable and Ti removes illogical. its that all remove what is unimportant to understand the thing at hand. but like i mentioned at op, neurons also combine with each others. so its just removing from visual info, but can still add from other areas if they fit.

Dario nardi noticed(which can be seen from jungs work also) that when measured with eeg, areas in cerebral cortex which activate on Fi usage(emotional importance), activate with ENTJ(possibly with ESTJ and ITJ also, but study group was too small) types from negative meaning, while same area activate on positive meaning.

Wrote this on my notes long time ago:

"affective responce to 'whats of' personal value. F8(the area when measuring with eeg): Fi emotional importance, "music is important", "its good", "thats my favourite", " my car", "i like joe".
With ENTJs activating on negative words instead of positive("i hate joe", "thats bad" etc.
People with Fi more likely to place emotional importance on keywords of value to them(people, places, ideas, activities etc)."

hope this clears things a bit.

And if you are interest of his work on functions measured with eeg:

Authors@Google: Dario Nardi - Neuroscience of Personality - YouTube

personally i think his work is lacking some important things and eeg isnt the best way to measure as it only measures the surface of cerebral cortex and not deeper structures, its not very accurate(only measured 18 spots if i remember right etc etc. but i think it gives some idea of where functions are on cerebral cortex. but for example doesent measure activity of amygdala(emotional center etc) and only shows what area on cerwbral cortex activates on emotional responce, so it leaves ALOT important info out.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

@Artsu

Spoiler

@EyeSeeCold: I believe the mental process I described to nonetheless be black Intuition, in that it is an active process, based on making changes to objects (of perception - it is Nb creative, so the objects are imagined/represented rather than currently manifest in the field of external objects).

Fw base shows itself in that the real world implications are typically of an ethical, idealist nature. There is little active emoting - rather there is an ever present moral framework within which the outer world is interpreted.

Sounds right. It helps to keep in mind the phenomenological nature behind the IEs/functions that we stereotype them as.

chemicals, genetics, other → | Fw phenomenon → | Fw IE (morality, psychological distance, desire, relation) → | type cognition → | type behavior →

 

[rattymat]

Means a turning inwards of the libido (q.v.), whereby a negative relation of subject to object is expressed. Interest does not move towards the object, but recedes towards the subject. Everyone whose attitude is introverted thinks, feels, and acts in a way that clearly demonstrates that the subject is the chief factor of motivation while the object at most receives only a secondary value.
Disagree. I do not think introversion or extroversion is a matter of placing value more or less value on the internal or external world- it is not a matter of value. It has more to do with the mode of interaction with the internal and external realms. One can place a higher value on the external object and still be intoverted, they merely process this value internally; as opposed to externally. Extroverts, in turn, may place more value in their own self as opposed to the object, however they choose to externally express this value. An extrovert is someone who's existence as a person is more observable than that of an introvert; who's views primarily exist internally. The different in introversion and extroversion is therefore more about the area in which they choose to process information the recieve. This information processing can be internalized or externalized. This difference in processing however, is not reflective of their values.

 

[naama]

Means a turning inwards of the libido (q.v.), whereby a negative relation of subject to object is expressed. Interest does not move towards the object, but recedes towards the subject. Everyone whose attitude is introverted thinks, feels, and acts in a way that clearly demonstrates that the subject is the chief factor of motivation while the object at most receives only a secondary value.
Disagree. I do not think introversion or extroversion is a matter of placing value more or less value on the internal or external world- it is not a matter of value. It has more to do with the mode of interaction with the internal and external realms. One can place a higher value on the external object and still be intoverted, they merely process this value internally; as opposed to externally. Extroverts, in turn, may place more value in their own self as opposed to the object, however they choose to externally express this value. An extrovert is someone who's existence as a person is more observable than that of an introvert; who's views primarily exist internally. The different in introversion and extroversion is therefore more about the area in which they choose to process information the recieve. This information processing can be internalized or externalized. This difference in processing however, is not reflective of their values.

you misunderstood the word negative/positive relation to the object.

Take this optical illusion called ames room for example:

Ames Room Optical Illusion Optica - YouTube

this happens because you add an existing assumption of what rooms are like to your visual perception, this is extraversion, you have a positive relation to object. its not about positive as good or negative as bad, its about positive as + and negative as -.

What comes to neurology of this illusion, its that you have a this assumption of what the room is like in your midbrain. visual input from eyes goes through this area before going to visual cortex. but there is no conscious image formed yet, just some initial expectation that shapes the actual visual image formed in visual cortex. so because you add this assumption to your visual perception, you perceive room as normal shape and people vary in size. you could say that everything you see is seen through this sort of lens of expectation. as i mentioned, the external world you perceive isnt in external world, but is just a visual representation of external world on your visual cortex.

But what then happens is that your brain kinda says error error and thinks this cant be, is that the info leaves from visual cortex to other brain regions, which process the info further. other brain regions say that this cant be true, thus takes a negative relation to the object.

If you look at the parvo pathway on op at first pic, it says that it goes back to midbrain from visual cortex(opposed to magno pathway which takes the info for further processing) and that its the conscious perception. because the conscious perception doesent add or remove from what is seen on visual cortex, you still see the illusion(consciously perceive it) even if you rationalize it not being true and even if you know how the illusion happens in your brains.

This brains saying error error when you perceive the illusion and know its not true happens when you combine the extraverted image to introverted thought. this combining the two is what you actually become conscious of, but its the extraverted image that you still perceive consciously, introverted thought is just a thought of the image, not something you do to modify the image.

Now then there is ofc the inserting info from other areas in cerebral cortex to visual cortex, its pretty much the same thing as inserting info from midbrain(s expectations about the image), but is more rationalized and this os where the extraverted functions come to the picture. its quite hard to tell if the extraverted functions actually modify the consciously perceived image or not, my guess would be not, but they shape sort of what direction you shape the introverted thought about the image.