Explaining one's views is hard sometimes

[Black Rose]

When ones personal investment in an idea or subject has at most some kind of understanding behind it, this can make it difficult to tell others in such a way then you will be given feedback as to be constructive.

Your understanding is not exactly the same as others so the case will be that people will not talk directly to you but either above you or below you and that makes it president that you listen or they listen.

Without listening in terms of any level of understanding I believe that is an issue of emotional hardening.

We may in some instances be unwilling to go so far because of a need to be right about everything.

This eludes to the fact that misunderstanding makes people upset and upset people defend themselves.

Or they attack people because that would work to make people conform or submit to some person's demands.

It is because in some way not getting what you want, which is the other person's recognition, is harmful to the ego.

So to get it from another person we have formed strategies made since childhood to align with the egos survival.

That is, we do today what worked in the past and yet this is no longer optimum for today's world.

So when two people engage the conflict of the ego arises between them.

What is it a person is trying to get is to be listened to but then we do so in the ways we learned how.

Not knowing we will face a hard reality we can persist in certain strategies of communication not suitable for adults.

The skills for effectively navigating reality will then dent parts of the ego we had once seen as reliable for survival.

This will cause at first a detriment to ones views of others and then to ones sense of self.

By effectively misunderstanding that ones needs must be met differently as adults generally we will fail many times.

The relationship then between people, of demanding things cannot be the answer as that forces a conflict.

Basically, then you will be seen as an enemy, and so what would be best to do is to consider what signals you are giving off to others.

If one is in conflict, mostly intellectual conflicts, there is a way to mitigate the risks of shallow interactions.

First is to recognize ones own emotional signals, second is to understand what they mean.

We might be attached to defending what we are trying to show others.

We are showing what is important and must recognize what that is to us.

People will in some discussions not care what is important to us.

And they will not care about listening.

To tell when a person listens we will see them using neutral language and informative language.

The tone will refer to disagreement and not attaching the character of the other person.

It will also not be passive-aggressive. Meaning it will not demean you by attributing malice to your views.

To carry oneself in a conversation look for what response is bringing a person to better understanding not less.

The effect may not always work but to try is to dampen one's emotional radicality.

If a person simply does not understand it is best to leave the conversation.

It is also best to know how invested they are in listening to you.

The ones who listen are the ones who add value to your life.

They help you see things differently without diminishing what is important to you.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[ZenRaiden]

There are 3 types of talking, ergo
one is aggressive
two is defensive
three is sharing

I prefer sharing, but invariably people fall into aggressive or defensive stance.

There are many reasons for why this is, one is conflict of interest.
Ergo people have a reason to say things
its either to influence
to vent
to validate

My MO is mostly sharing and sharing, but sometimes I try to explain my views when I see I can add something.
Unfortunately I don't validate peoples view often, because I think its better people believe in what they say of their own according. Maybe that is wrong Not sure about it.

Generally I agree with @LOGICZOMBIE that civility has been thinned out from debate, and there are many reasons for this.

First of online discussions are deceptive. There is no immediate feedback and people lose nuances.
I cannot communicate softly, or with hints of sarcasm, I cannot display distrust or trust validation, or tone or attitude.
These are subtle, but important factors and I cannot give people immediate feedback.

That means a lot of time what I am saying has no underpinnings in broader back and forth and context related.

Its human nature to talk face to face. Even internet communication with face has better outcome as people can feel immediate feedback.

That is why the healthiest thing on internet is to take everything with grain of salt and reflect on it, and not read into it, or take it personally.

Which is hard with people in loaded topics, and topics people care about due to value or emotions.

We also largely project our own minds onto others, it takes time to get to know people, and multiple neutral interactions to know peoples baseline, before we can judge them safely.

Interactions on internet are often also loaded because of substance and baggage from conversations people had before.

I try to enter each debate with fresh outlook and fresh mind.

I try to avoid hard-lining and pinning positions down, and I simply use internet to broaden my idea base, concepts, and be more familiar with newer things.

Essentially I come to learn and that includes disagreements.

For me internet is place to see new stuff, I am not here to be definitive conclusions I am trying to adhere to this mindset. I am here to open up to new angles ergo charge my Ne.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

three is sharing

 

[ZenRaiden]

@LOGICZOMBIE pretty much. We all got ego, but we don't need it everywhere all the damn time.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

@LOGICZOMBIE pretty much. We all got ego, but we don't need it everywhere all the damn time.

 

[ZenRaiden]

@LOGICZOMBIE pretty much. We all got ego, but we don't need it everywhere all the damn time.

That is one hell of a sales pitch. He came on strong!

That said I think he got something right, but I would go down the road and say everything is about communication.

In my understanding communication happens when a message is send, received, processed, and response is send back. Essentially any two way information flow is communication.

From that logically we have three things to determine.
Either we are willing to engage, or not willing to engage, or just wait.
From that point we determine whether we are interested in same thing.

 

[Old Things]

Some people are more facts and logic based and some people are more emotion based. Sometimes, people who are immature or have had trauma in their lives use more emotional reasoning because they are in survival mode. Sometimes, predators use emotional reasoning to get what they want.

It takes intellectual humility to admit that someone else has a point in what they are saying. This rarely happens in debate. Usually, in a debate, even if the person acknowledges that the other person has a fair point, they cannot let that on, or it will look like they lost the debate. Ergo, ego is involved.

What @LOGICZOMBIE said about steel manning is good in principle, but it rarely ever happens. More often, even a person with intellectual humility will just give the person the point they are saying but then argue against that. This is different from steel manning because, with steel manning, you are trying to find the diamond in the rough, which would be finding the good argument in the bad argument. Basically, steel manning is more difficult because you are trying to make the other person's argument as strong as possible and THEN argue against that. And very few people actually do that. Even a person with a lot of intellectual humility, like Jordan Peterson, typically does not steelman another person's argument but instead grants the person the point and then asks a question about it (Peterson is not really a "debater" but more has discussions with people). A discussion is when you want to know what the other person is saying and they want to know what you are saying. This is more common among friends and doesn't happen much online (however, I would say @ZenRaiden operates this way more often).

 

[Black Rose]

It feels like, everything wants to hurt me.

Church is not the place for me to find help.

I see too much rejection, because I cannot say what I think.

All the time I need to say the right things, or then I feel things will go wrong.

Nothing about me seems tolerated, if I do not conform.

So I hold things inside and say only the most basic things.

That way no one calls me out, I feel trapped all the time.

At most, I never can say anything to anyone.

Pain is a weakness, and never goes away.

Sometimes I can't move.

-

Naturally, I have problems with expression.

 

[Old Things]

@Black Rose, I would advise you not to make yourself a victim because it will just end up as a self-fulfilled prophecy.

 

[Black Rose]

I see your point.

fear feels bad tho

I tried not to hurt feels

I take depression meds and antipsychotics

 

[Black Rose]

When I think of how trauma is,

Several times, there was no processing.

Breaking down emotionally is not something I do.

Without a breakdown, nothing gets healed.

Fearing other people I internalized the pain.

Which made me numb.

Now I can't feel much, but I can feel some.

Only when I hold on to it from the inside.

There might be trust issues.

I would say I do not tell people things often.

Going back to my mother, was just alone all the time.

Not having a close relationship with anyone,

Forming bonds requires more work.

As an adult, I never had a girlfriend.

Which is kind of the reason I do nothing all the time.

I like doing research about things tho.

It helps me avoid people.

I spend most time home.

There would be better things to do if I had money.

That requires energy.

To do jobs.

I could not even clean the shower today.

Has not been cleaned in 10 years.

Not too bright at things, so no school.

I have to make sure I get my roommate to Colorado soon.

But doing a job to get money might not happen for very long.

I would like to eat more, and sleep less.

I do nothing but sleep.

Sleep too much is because I need more wakefulness.

That may require, feeling sad more, facing sadness inside.

To get out sadness, might need to stay still long periods again.

That is how I did it before with long times of self-work.

-

Emotional wounds have a characteristic.

They are like scares.

They form in such a way that caution takes president.

Rushing in and doing no longer helps.

and holding it down no longer helps

a smooth transition is necessary

thought to thought

knowing what to do next

without this damage may occur again

I have to be aware and slow down

what had me before was control

I had some control yet too much pain because of it

that control was temporary and the wrong speed

holding the self is better control

this allows the pain to be observed rather than avoided

fighting the pain is not helping it

being aware does

 

[Old Things]

@Black Rose, I would recommend you do positive self-talk. I would also recommend working out. Get your endorphins going. That will help more than you think.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I see too much rejection, because I cannot say what I think.

Honestly here you can say what you think, but this is INTP forum, and Ill be damned if anyone agrees with anyone.
I am just saying people on forums rarely agree, minus topics that are less loaded.
I suggest you do something like avoid topics that are too volatile.
Religion, Politics, and stuff of that nature.
Focus on positive things you got and talk about things you are interested with people of same interest.
I don't think talking about AI IQ and stuff like that is common talking interest, but finding hobbies outside of those could work.
People are interested in 1000s of things.
Many of which can be bonding and interesting friendly topics.

People on this forum talk about what forums end up talking about, politics, religion, that weird thing, and so on.
Of course where this forum populated by different members it might be different.
But you don't have to constantly talk about topics that make you unhappy.
Just talk about topics that feel right.

As for religion, you cannot be forced to believe something you simply don't believe.
Same as with everything even religious stuff is something you have to live with so you pick what works for you. Live what you believe.
There are 1000s of beliefs and yours are as good as any, but you got to quit defending your views and then getting upset.
People will clash on matters of beliefs. Thats just because people have sometimes strong opinions on this. Its not your fault you disagree with someone, its normal.

But don't take disagreements personally.
Also focus on positive shit.
Cause this forum is not a good coping mechanism for your life.

I cannot send you too much support over a screen and I know you are screwed up.
Many people are, and thats nature of the deal.
I know I ain't helping much, but trust me, refocusing on positive stuff, even 1 percent a day can do miracles, its hard to be positive when so much is negative.

But when can be your therapy only by talking, but we cannot meet your needs psychologically.
You need people who know you, who you trust. And people around you, that you can vent, talk, complain, have fun and share with stuff.

Not avatars constantly telling you that you are wrong. Which is what forums mostly are honestly.

Not that forums cannot be good places to find people, but its ltd. stuff.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I find that it's easy to expose someone else's ignorance on a subject even if you yourself don't know much about the subject.

People overextend their knowledge because it's a good strategy, it works a lot of the time because language is such a flexible tool that it just seems like it makes sense.

When you actually Think and Judge together though, something that people don't usually do (most people are on autopilot), you can expose contradictions and gaps in what people are saying, and once your at that point, people don't like backtracking due to their pride, even if they were only marginally incorrect.

I think that if people dispensed with things like pride, communicating would be much easier. It's not going to happen because people weaponize emotions, but it's just a thought if you ever develop a thick skin.

 

[Black Rose]

people weaponize emotions

I take things personally that way.

Because I try and be objective.

But now I know people don't give a shit.

That is why religion and politics is bullshit.

They are only weapons for some agenda.

Those things cannot be discussed objectively.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

people weaponize emotions

I take things personally that way.

Because I try and be objective.

But now I know people don't give a shit.

That is why religion and politics is bullshit.

They are only weapons for some agenda.

Those things cannot be discussed objectively.

They are tools that have many purposes imo.

Capitalism/consumer culture kinda ruined everything to be honest. Everything is just a tool to get capital.

Even capitalism ruined capitalism.

Try finding a job online as an American. You are competing against Indians/Pakistani who will do obscene amounts of work for like 20$

How are you supposed to make a living without becoming what is wrong with the world?

Wack.

 

[ZenRaiden]

That is why religion and politics is bullshit.

Well you vote and then nothing, in politics. Its good to know stuff about politics, but its not going to be of any use, unless you know why politics is important to you.
Most people that I talk to about politics don't know what it even is. Some people are merely interested in taxes and some people interested in getting a pension.
Politics is viewed from a lens of what it can give people, and most people don't even what that is.
Pragmatically politics is waste of time. You can do many more interesting things.

When it comes to religion its the same thing. What is a belief or religious doctrine for you in day to day is a good question.
What beliefs make you do things and what beliefs are useful to you.
Many of religious things don't actually address real life problems.
The ones you have day to day, like fixing shit, problem solving, getting things done on time, etc.
Religion is also fairly divorced from real life in many ways, because priests are mostly freeloaders whos job is to be wise, but not pragmatic.

They are only weapons for some agenda.

Politics is for managing wealth.
If you aren't wealthy you have very little use for it.
Religion is for managing conduct. If you are fairly sensible person you really have very little use for religion, as long as you do the right things.
Its really just a nice place to validate values.
Maybe cope with harsh world.
Maybe share a bond with others.

If you have lots of thoughts on topics you will clash with most people.
You are a thinker, and most people don't think, not even smart people think much.
I can run circles around smart people who don't think, because I thought about stuff, and they did not. Does not mean I am smarter, but it means I contemplated more things and thought about more things, so naturally there will be disparity between the way my mind sees and understand things.

If there is a gap between how you think and others think, part of what you can do is meet people at their level.

This means you give up contradicting them or necessarily disagreeing with them, and just roll with what they have, and see on which points they are correct and which ones they got right.

If you really don't want conflict then listen and don't try to explain things.
People can be wrong about many things, but its important to listen anyhow.
Also on topic of listening, people rarely listen to you, which is another thing you will have to learn.

Many people only hear what fits their own mindset.

Key point is that we have limits on things anyhow.

I think part of your problem might be the way you talk, and I read your posts, I think a lot of times it seems you are correct, but you explain certain things differently.

Your style of thinking and talking is pretty good, but I think it takes a bit of reading before I adjust to it.

Part of it maybe your habit of thinking and maybe overthinking.
Which is a big communication problem in real life. Especially with less thinking types and more doing types.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

I find that it's easy to expose someone else's ignorance on a subject even if you yourself don't know much about the subject.

no claim is automatically logical

in order for a claim to be considered logical, it must be demonstrated and each component defined

for example

something plus something divided by something and then multiplied by the square-root of something = 42


you can't prove me wrong - so it must be true

if you don't believe me then you are just denying mathematical facts

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Do the laws of logic exist independently of human or animal consciousness?

Are the laws of mathematics and logic, such as if a=b, and b=c, then a=c just constructs of the human mind, or does the universe hold an innate logical structure to it, which the physical part of the

philosophy.stackexchange.com

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Politics is for managing wealth.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Do the laws of logic exist independently of human or animal consciousness?

Are the laws of mathematics and logic, such as if a=b, and b=c, then a=c just constructs of the human mind, or does the universe hold an innate logical structure to it, which the physical part of the

philosophy.stackexchange.com

engineering validates logic

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Logic validates logic lmao

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Logic validates logic lmao

practical application validates logic

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Logic validates logic lmao

practical application validates logic

events that look (logically) like they validate logic validates logic.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

events that look (logically) like they validate logic validates logic.

this computer validates logic