Explain Masturbation Please

[BigApplePi]

I have heard about this masturbation thing. It's been mentioned on the forum. Can someone explain "masturbation" to me please? I'm after theoretical considerations. I've heard of stirrings, urges, stimulation, massage, pleasure, release, satisfaction and all that. But that is Si (introverted sensation) isn't it? That rates as only the tertiary function for an INTP. Si isn't good enough for me. I want to go beyond.

I want a Ti (thinking) explanation. (It's INTP pride.) What goes on in your mind? If I have sex with a partner I'm thoroughly distracted by my partner ... if all goes well. But masturbation is different. Here is an opportunity to get inside one's mind. Here is a chance to get beyond amateurism and learn mastery.

(Notice I am separating this from any moral issue. Societies aiming toward family productivity have frowned on behavior inimical to that end. Starting with the Garden of Eden, sexual exposure has attempted to bring about a feeling of shame. I'm not addressing that here.)

Your mind. What is in there? Can it be blank? Can it stay blank? Is some thing of an illusion? Is an illusion required? Is the whole thing different from an itch scratched? Is the concept of union or fusion required? Is it an enhancement? If so, does masturbation succeed? What do images have to do with sensation? Help!

 

[SpaceYeti]

I think you should get over yourself and just go ejaculate. If you're concerned about Ti, then think about something while you do it. I recommend boobies as the subject.

 

[onthewindowstand]

I think you should get over yourself and just go ejaculate. If you're concerned about Ti, then think about something while you do it. I recommend boobies as the subject.

Another suggestion is that you should think about lesbian strap on porn.

 

[BigApplePi]

I think you should get over yourself and just go ejaculate. If you're concerned about Ti, then think about something while you do it. I recommend boobies as the subject.

SpacedYeti this is an intellectual topic. Perhaps your intellectual experience is limited to answer so you seek avoidance. I see no reason to confine oneself to just the upper anatomy. Is beauty and peace in contemplating proximity to the upper female form all there is?

Thank you for the recommendation though. I will think on it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Another suggestion is that you should think about lesbian strap on porn.

That is a good idea. Thank you for the suggestion. I'm not sure it gets at what I am after. Perhaps I will never know.

 

[Agent Intellect]

This thread is already a good indication about peoples thoughts. First, nobody has a serious answer to the OP. They either are embarrassed to talk about it, or they really don't think about anything besides pornographic images (this is still biased towards males). Second, the thread received a lot of views very fast, but very few responses, which means people are interested in what others have to say about it, but don't want to talk about their own experiences.

I wonder if people feel shame about masturbation during the act of masturbation?

I've heard a saying before: "90% of people masturbate. The other 10% are liars." I think there is a mindset that masturbation is both shameful (something done in private and kept to oneself) and a sign that the person participating in it must be socially inept and unable to find companionship (hence they must satisfy the need themselves). I can't think of a good reason that people in a situation that has the means, opportunity, and desire to masturbate not to take it.

The difference I would say between masturbation and sex is that masturbation is completely self indulgent - it's all about you and your own pleasure. Sex means having to also please the other participant. There are some people who become addicted to masturbation to the point that they prefer it over sex because the masturbatory fantasies are more pleasing to them than "mundane" sexual intercourse. Of course, then there are others who find the activity of seeking out new sexual partners and "playing the game" exciting, and the actual sex to be hollow and underwhelming.

 

[SpaceYeti]

SpacedYeti this is an intellectual topic. Perhaps your intellectual experience is limited to answer so you seek avoidance. I see no reason to confine oneself to just the upper anatomy. Is beauty and peace in contemplating proximity to the upper female form all there is?

Certainly not, but it's a fantastic place to begin.

Thank you for the recommendation though. I will think on it.

Excellent, just be sure not to arbitrarily limit yourself if your thoughts should wander. You like what you like. Allow your thoughts to roam.

... nobody has a serious answer to the OP. They either are embarrassed to talk about it, or they really don't think about anything besides pornographic images (this is still biased towards males).

I fail to see how my answer was less than serious. Is pornography not serious? I happen to take pornography pretty seriously, as watching it is something of a hobby of mine, and searching through all the boring BS that gets off your typical guy is quite tiring when you're attempting to build a fulfilling collection. Some of it's not quite up to snuff, some of it has poor quality, some of it's just plain boring, and sometimes the things you think are going to be boring turn out to be sexy as hell.

Further, I'm not really sure what there is to "intellectualize" about masturbating. It's about fulfilling one of your base desires when there's either no partner around, or no partner who's willing to do that thing you wanna try. That's pretty much it. If you want to attribute it to the Id and have us discuss it as part of Freudian theory, we can do that. Or if you want to discuss how people are aroused by different things, we could do that as well.

Further, the OP mentioned how the things many people attribute to masturbation are Si. you know, maybe they are. I fail to see why that matters. If you want your Ti involved in your masturbatory outings, then think about something while you're doing it. It's pretty simple. If someone's confused about masturbating, I usually recommend they try it out. Like an experiment. Is that wrong?

I wonder if people feel shame about masturbation during the act of masturbation?

Maybe. They shouldn't. If they do, they're doing it wrong.

And I was unaware that anyone was asking for my experiences on the subject, as well. If someone wants us to all gather around and tell masturbation stories, I'm down for that. I'm simply not sure that was the point of the thread.

 

[Melllvar]

I think this thread got a lot of views because of the "WTF" factor. My first reaction was "Did someone really make this thread?" My second reaction was "I'm gonna get banned if I let loose in that one." After that I really just couldn't tell what the OP was asking for, or even particularly what type of 'masturbation' was being referred to.

As to the actual act of self-pleasuring the erogenous zones, I imagine conscious thought (Ti or whatever) is probably best used for building a complete, realistic, vivid fantasy that encourages the sensational pleasure, which could be even more stimulating than porno. Not that I would know. I'm as pure as the mountain snow.

 

[phial]

Mental images can be just as effective as real ones, for turning up the sex-drive.

Masturbation for me is often a habitual thing, your body comes to expect it (heheheh pun) at certain times. Its mostly a maintenance thing.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Perhaps maintenance, but there's no reaosn to think of it as that exclusively. I sometimes take an hour or two out of a boring Sunday by watching one of my favorites, and then allowing my minds to wander. Perhaps I write a little story to make what I imagine a tad more concrete, and I enjoy myself the whole time. Sometimes I experiment with myself, try a little something new, see how it feels, etc. Masturbation is an event. Like Christmas, but just with you and it's sexy time. Well, not every time, but it has potential to be a truly great, epic thing.

 

[Wizardry]

SpaceYeti, I love your posts, rofl.

I'm guessing you want to explore "thought induced arousal", like how girls get all hot and bothered by Mr. Darcy or that sparkly vampire dude. Where does this come from and what thoughts activate these reptilian impulses? Is that what you are wanting to explore? I would imagine girls in general would be much more prone to this than men.

Funny side note- I know a couple of women who said they thought Brad Pitt was sexy as hell when he was Achilles in the movie Troy but outside the movie he lost most of the appeal. I knew one girl who had a Harry Potter fetish, but same thing. She was enamored with the character, the "idea" of Harry Potter.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I commonly explore thought induced arousal. I'm something of a writer (one who doesn't really try to get published, and mysteriously hasn't), and much of my sexy thoughts wind up written somewhere. In fact, some of it's online. I'm curious if anyone here has ever read any of it.

Anyhow, images are fun and exciting, but what happens in your head is anything you want! Porn is good for the initial arousal and brain storming.

 

[kantor1003]

Not sure where you want to take this. I can try to give some input from my own experience. It is a bit rambly.. for that, I'm sorry.
Masturbation, the imagery one creates obviously (normally) try to simulate that of a real sexual encounter. The problem I'm having, and the beautiful irony of it all, if you can call it that, is that often that of my imagination seems to surpass that of a real encounter. Perhaps one can say it's because I usually don't have the same partner for more than a couple of nights and haven't had the chance to experience a real deep relationship that in turn would enhance sexual experience. That could be. For me as it is now though, sex is more like a fun, sometimes a really stressful activity that in some ways is less than that of my own solitary imagination. The things I create in the process of masturbation can range from plane dirty to approaching an almost divine creature, and since it's created by me will know me for what I am and know me more than anyone else ever could. Which obviously can be an argument that this imaginary creature surpasses that of a normal, breathing, human with all their shortcomings. Also, you don't have other utter factors almost forcing you to do certain things or expecting you to do this and that - you have another mind to attend to as well.. and for me, this is often too much, detracting from my ability to totally immense my self in my own sexual utopia (sometimes I disagree with myself on that point as having another thinking human beside you can be a big turn on.. and that is really how it should be all the time. Unfortunately it isn't.) Different sexual partners with their different mannerisms also deviate from what you yourself have imagined things to be. Seems like every deviation from the imagination you create to give yourself a boner, to put it bluntly, removes some of the appeal.. I don't know.. I think "we" think too much really.. often I find myself, instead of being consumed in the "here and now", with this naked being beside me, thinking about so many things which only works as hmm... filters.. and not in a good way.. like reducing the brightness from your tv.. Sometimes I'm really shocked about how little I'm actually turned on when I, if I had fantasized the same naked body besides me would have been more turned on than when it actually happens. As I said, it's probably because I think too much and the stress that potentially can accompany it.. or perhaps having sex too regularly can be a contributing factor.. or that it's just too real? Sex is really an area where one should release ones primate desire to the negligence of logic and reason.. enabling you to immense yourself in what is happening. (When unable to, sex becomes hmm... rather difficult) Realizing your inner beast so to speak.. just doing everything you want to without fear of consequence.. which is exactly what you do in your imaginations when masturbating. Seems like the female and male both respond best when they both are acting out according to their primitive lusts, doing everything with total disregard for everything else.

 

[BigApplePi]

I think this thread got a lot of views because of the "WTF" factor. My first reaction was "Did someone really make this thread?" My second reaction was "I'm gonna get banned if I let loose in that one." After that I really just couldn't tell what the OP was asking for, or even particularly what type of 'masturbation' was being referred to.

Hi guys ... and gals welcome also. I haven't finished reading what has been said after I got back but have to jump in here. You are right Melllvar. I'm having trouble defining what I'm after. It may take a while to do that. Perhaps you've heard it said, "It's necessary to ask the right question to get the right answer." I have to ask the right question.

Here's a story that may shed some light. When I was a juvenile I asked an older fellow what causes an erection. Apparently I knew such a thing could occur. He said something to the effect I very well ought to know the answer. Years passed by and I never got the answer because I couldn't phrase the question. Here is one way of putting it: What causes me to raise my arm? The answer, "Because I want to" isn't what I'm after. I want to know the details of how it works. Today I still don't know that answer but I'm sure an outline is: thought -> brain -> nerve stimulation -> arm raise is a part of it.

Sex must be along those lines if we add hormonal flow and other physiological aspects. But what goes on in the brain? Is masturbation different from sexual congress? Is it possible we have to use 2,000 years of scientific study on sex and still don't have the answer ... and I've still not phrased the question properly. I can't get at what I'm after alone. Post on. That's my motive for this thread.

 

[Cognisant]

It's a side effect of imagination, the ability to mentally project beyond the immediate situation, even visualise hypothetical situations, which gave human beings the natural equivalent of pre-cognisance (the ability to foresee the future) and the terrifying powers of rationality and conceptual creativity.

In of itself it's meaningless.

 

[BigApplePi]

I've finished reading what has been posted so far and now have a better clue as to what I'm after. Take a look at these quotes:

some people who become addicted to masturbation to the point that they prefer it over sex because the masturbatory fantasies are more pleasing to them

You like what you like. Allow your thoughts to roam.
... sometimes the things you think are going to be boring turn out to be sexy as hell.

Another suggestion is that you should think about lesbian strap on porn.

... I imagine conscious thought (Ti or whatever) is probably best used for building a complete, realistic, vivid fantasy that encourages the sensational pleasure

Mental images can be just as effective as real ones, for turning up the sex-drive.

Perhaps I write a little story to make what I imagine a tad more concrete ... it has potential to be a truly great, epic thing.
images are fun and exciting, but what happens in your head is anything you want!

Masturbation, the imagery one creates obviously (normally) try to simulate that of a real sexual encounter. The problem I'm having, and the beautiful irony of it all, if you can call it that, is that often that of my imagination seems to surpass that of a real encounter. ... The things I create in the process of masturbation can range from plane dirty to approaching an almost divine creature, ... Which obviously can be an argument that this imaginary creature surpasses that of a normal, breathing, human with all their shortcomings. Also, you don't have other utter factors almost forcing you to do certain things or expecting you to do this and that - you have another mind to attend to as well.. and for me, this is often too much, detracting from my ability to totally immense my self in my own sexual utopia (sometimes I disagree with myself on that point as having another thinking human beside you can be a big turn on.. ...) . just doing everything you want to without fear of consequence.. which is exactly what you do in your imaginations when masturbating.

In every case there is a reference to fantasy or some story line. Why do we need a story line and what does that have to do with physical pleasure? If someone itches all over and they scratch that is pleasant, but no story line. If I take a hot bath, there is no story line. If I have a gourmet meal (and that is a lot more varied than masturbation), I don't necessarily require company. No story line. That's what I must have meant by thought. Why would thought (or better ... sophisticated mental imagery) be desired for a sensual experience like masturbation which has no presence of a real partner?

 

[Agent Intellect]

In every case there is a reference to fantasy or some story line. Why do we need a story line and what does that have to do with physical pleasure? If someone itches all over and they scratch that is pleasant, but no story line. If I take a hot bath, there is no story line. If I have a gourmet meal (and that is a lot more varied than masturbation), I don't necessarily require company. No story line. That's what I must have meant by thought. Why would thought (or better ... sophisticated mental imagery) be desired for a sensual experience like masturbation which has no presence of a real partner?

So you're asking what our masturbation stories are?

It's an interesting question why we require the fantasy, and perhaps even the narrative. Even reading a text with a sex scene in it can be arousing. It's been shown that women are much more interested into the context and atmosphere of romance, where men are more interested in imagery - just the fact that the vast majority of porn is marketed to men, while romance novels are marketed to women, is a good indication of this.

I haven't seen any research on the subject, but a show I saw a while back mentioned that the neural and hormonal mechanisms of female orgasm are much more complex then males, and is not nearly as well understood. I wish I had a link (that nobody would read) to back this up.

It's also interesting that different people find different stuff arousing. I'm really not all that much into porn, and prefer to make up my own scenarios. For me, these scenarios pretty much always involve myself. It's possible that the crux of this is that people require a narrative that involves putting themselves in the situation - even if the situation is voyeurism and doesn't directly involve themselves, it still involves their presence.

To scratch an itch is to be directly in the situation of pleasure. Scratching the itch is the point of the action. Watching someone else scratch at an itch doesn't allow us to put ourselves in that pleasurable situation as strongly as sexual gratification. The actual act of masturbation itself is not what is pleasurable, but the idea of fulfilling a sexual fantasy is. The personal contact with ones own sexual organ isn't the point. Mental/perceptual stimulation is more arousing than physical stimulation.

That's why something like "thinking off" is possible:

YouTube - Strange Sex- Thinking Off

 

[SpaceYeti]

Sex must be along those lines if we add hormonal flow and other physiological aspects. But what goes on in the brain? Is masturbation different from sexual congress? Is it possible we have to use 2,000 years of scientific study on sex and still don't have the answer ... and I've still not phrased the question properly. I can't get at what I'm after alone. Post on. That's my motive for this thread.

I imagine it's just like anything else we do, neural impulses and what-not. I couldn't claim to know exactly, but google is pretty awesome when it comes to finding shit out.

 

[SpaceYeti]

In every case there is a reference to fantasy or some story line. Why do we need a story line and what does that have to do with physical pleasure? If someone itches all over and they scratch that is pleasant, but no story line. If I take a hot bath, there is no story line. If I have a gourmet meal (and that is a lot more varied than masturbation), I don't necessarily require company. No story line. That's what I must have meant by thought. Why would thought (or better ... sophisticated mental imagery) be desired for a sensual experience like masturbation which has no presence of a real partner?

Story line is more fulfilling. It's not about a physical need, sex is psychological in nature. You're not doing the equivalent of scratching an itch. In order to enjoy yourself while masturbating, you must masturbate to something. An itch does not require a mental subject in order to be scratched. Sexual arousal, in me anyhow, necessarily involves a subject of my desire: a female. A female in my imagination is always equal to or superior to a real female... except, of course, for the fact that she's not real.

 

[EvilScientist Trainee]

Masturbation is obviously linked to the rewards centres on the brain. I mean, the orgasm, as a pleasure inducing mechanism already links itself to these centres, regardless of it's through sex or masturbation only.

But often, the easier path to reward is taken. That's why masturbation is more common in young ages and singles. Of course, married/coupled people also masturbate, but their frequency to do so is reduced as it's easier to engage in actual sexual relations.

Of course, there are -and should be- exceptions to the rule. But what sounds easier: Linking your computer to a porn site or grooming yourself to a night out, to try your luck with persons from the opposite gender.

So, masturbation ends as a very good simulation to the real thing. The only difference is between happening and imagining, you always end up with an orgasm. It also may explain why fantasies are better fulfilled through masturbation. Some partners are just not submitting to some fantasies, and masturbation allows you to fulfill the fantasy and achieve an orgasm.

Any further thoughts?

 

[CoryJames]

I understand your curiosity in this matter, as many INTPs are concerned about the rationale behind all things we do. However, I think your curiosity may remain unsatisfied, because I do not believe that there is much conscious thought behind masturbation. The most conscious thought about masturbation is put into the construction of reasoned arguments about the the morality of the act itself.

Masturbation is an addictive, Id based act meant to satisfy our primal need to procreate. This can be proven as many animals who have limited to no conscious thought also participate in the act. What goes on in the mind is generally as detailed an imaginary sex based scenario as possible, often aided by visual stimuli on the subject. True, some may be aroused by other, not typically sex related thoughts or images, but this is likely due to some uncommon associative tendencies developed at earlier stages in the brains experiential formation.

Call me old fashioned but my mind is NOT blank when I masturbate, it probably couldn't stay blank. As stated above, yes, it is an illusion. It is similar in some sense to an itch scratched, as it becomes a habit, but in other ways it is unsimilar. The images I use are of sexual nature.

Best I can do, hope it helps.

 

[sroro]

I guess I'll just explain experience, I doubt it'll help. Sure, I can masturbate and continue so on a blank mind but it takes much longer to climax than if I imagine an erotic image, sound, idea or something. If I were to continue on a blank mind I just feel the sensation of climax and that's it. No thoughts, it's just like meditating.

I could also masturbate while simultaneously thinking of homework but again, maths or other coursework aren't sexy in that way and would delay me as long as having a meditative state of mind.

To me masturbating isn't really different than scratching or sleeping on the job, its just an annoying thing to keep me away from getting work (not on myself) done.

 

[pjoa09]

masturbation without visuals is the best if you go in prepared.

personally:
removing their attire
bare backs
blanket just barely on their ass
hair rolling down over it
and side boobs

but i do find it strange.. i am wondering why havent i been able to ejaculate to cars... because its all essentially curves

 

[EyeSeeCold]

This is such a masturbatory thread.

 

[elfsprin]

Is masturbation different from sexual congress? Is it possible we have to use 2,000 years of scientific study on sex and still don't have the answer...

actually, there has been a woefully scant amount of serious scientific study conducted on the topics of human sex and arousal.

In every case there is a reference to fantasy or some story line. Why do we need a story line and what does that have to do with physical pleasure? If someone itches all over and they scratch that is pleasant, but no story line. If I take a hot bath, there is no story line. If I have a gourmet meal (and that is a lot more varied than masturbation), I don't necessarily require company. No story line. That's what I must have meant by thought. Why would thought (or better ... sophisticated mental imagery) be desired for a sensual experience like masturbation which has no presence of a real partner?

i think a clearer way to pose your query would be:

when someone has an itch, they scratch it. that feels good, and the itching sensation desists.

when someone masturbates, it feels good, but in general to come to full climax some sort of additional mental exercises seem to be either required or preferred.

for itching to be the same as masturbation in this context, it would seem that a person inflicted with an itch would either need or prefer to not only perform the physical act of itching, but also visualize a nail scratching skin (or any such similar image), in order for the act of scratching to provide them with full relief from the itch.

this leads to several interesting questions / lines of inquiry:

first, is visualization absolutely required for coming to occur? for example, can a comatose man gain an erection, then come, as a result of physical stimulation? would this act of coming be equivalent with an orgasm, in terms of the pleasure centers in the brain that are stimulated, and other bodily effects (for example, increased overall body temperature, or muscle tension in other areas of the body such as the abdomen, legs, etc.)?

if it is not required, why is it preferred? it would seem that visualization commonly increases arousal, thereby making an ejaculation more pleasurable. why is that, neurologically speaking? in what way are arousal and visualization related, if it is the case that visualization is primarily related to arousal specifically?

my own reply to this question would be as follows:

first, visualization is not necessary for one to come. you don't even have to be alive to come (google postmortem electroejaculation). that being said, i can find no definitive research concerning how this act of involuntary ejaculation compares to having an orgasm. i would feel safe presuming that there are substantial differences.

second, i can personally say that it is possible to induce myself to the point of orgasm while not visualizing anything pornographic. it is even possible to achieve an orgasm while mentally distracted / not thinking about the fact that i'm masturbating. orgasm is definitely, imo, the correct term for what happens under these circumstances, though there are differences between orgasming under these conditions. for example, my overall body temperature does not increase, nor do i experience muscle tension in other parts of my body in the same way. however, i happen to be a person who experiences 'tremors' throughout my body as a whole when i orgasm, and these tremors still occur when i've masturbated to the point of orgasm without engaging in visualization.

ime, visualization is directly related to arousal. i would wager that this is probably the case for everyone else as well, though that's pure unfounded assumption / intuitive guesswork.

as for how and why visualization and arousal are related, i'd have to simply state that many of the mechanisms behind arousal and the orgasm are not yet fully understood. in other words, i have no scientifically backed answer. i don't think anyone else has the answer either, though there are plenty of hypotheses floating around.

i think you would find Mary Roach's book bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex well-worth your time.

The Guide to Getting it On, which has a section on Sex & the Human Condition that "deals with sex for the disabled as well bodily or psychological conditions that affect sex life[.]" may also interest you. additional information can be found here.

 

[echoplex]

I helps to have a sexual partner you can trust.

 

[BigApplePi]

So you're asking what our masturbation stories are?

No as there are plenty of specific stories out there.

It's been shown that women are much more interested into the context and atmosphere of romance, where men are more interested in imagery - just the fact that the vast majority of porn is marketed to men, while romance novels are marketed to women, is a good indication of this.

I would like to subtract cultural and anatomical differences and locate what is in common.

I haven't seen any research on the subject, but a show I saw a while back mentioned that the neural and hormonal mechanisms of female orgasm are much more complex then males

My intuition says after subtraction this can't be possible.

To scratch an itch is to be directly in the situation of pleasure. Scratching the itch is the point of the action. Watching someone else scratch at an itch doesn't allow us to put ourselves in that pleasurable situation as strongly as sexual gratification.

Here is a thought experiment: Ever had poison ivy? It itches. Scratching helps only while scratching and the itch immediately returns. It takes two weeks or so to go away unless you remove your skin which you don't want to do. Now I'll bet you could set up a movie where another person has poison ivy and scratches. The social situation would stimulate you to scratch because another doing it would convey that it's okay. If they didn't scratch it would not be okay. If we transfer this "social" behavior to masturbation, then imagery says it's okay. Perhaps we could say, "Good imagery; good technique. Guilty imagery; poor technique." Quality imagery means pleasure OTHER than the physical.

Said another way, the itch/scratch has little or no social value. But sex has enormous value. It means any or all of play, joy, partnership, family potential.

The actual act of masturbation itself is not what is pleasurable, but the idea of fulfilling a sexual fantasy is. The personal contact with ones own sexual organ isn't the point. Mental/perceptual stimulation is more arousing than physical stimulation.

Both are satisfying. It's perhaps that both are involved that has caused me to pose the thinking problem. One has difficulty thinking of two things at the same time. Because both things occur at the same time and only one consciously, the unconscious part controls. Thought fails to control both. Think of ANY pleasure. One gives in to it and one's mind does not prevail though one can try. It's like any addiction.

That's why something like "thinking off" is possible:
YouTube - Strange Sex- Thinking Off

I have a personal correspondence for men here. I am male. Males can have wet dreams. This was long ago and I'll simplify the story. I met a hot babe but hadn't learned how to masturbate. All we did was make out. That night I had a wet dream. I met her again. Next night another wet dream but less fluid. So you see ... thoughts/images can produce orgasm in this male though that was probably the last wet dream I ever had.

 

[Melllvar]

Some of these comments seem to take a pleasure-centric view of the act. I think masturbation often functions as a way to eliminate sexual desire and the distractions caused by it as much as anything else.

It's also a little disappointing that only guys are posting here. We all know every girl does it too, although maybe not as much due to a less-raging sex drive (compared to men on average) and more opportunities for actual sex with another person. It'd be interesting to know how women's etiology and experiences differed from men's, if it does at all.

Jokes that still haven't been made in this thread:

1) "Let me go try it and I'll tell you what I learned."
2) "I've gotta log out for 15 minutes."
3) "It was so hard to type this post with only one hand."
4) "When do we get an 'Explain Sex Please' thread?"
5) "You guys sure do seem to know an awful lot about this."
6) "I'm 'coming up' with an answer right now."

 

[Jesse]

The best use for masturbation I have heard is to lengthen actual sex. Also why are you asking about masturbation?? Unless you haven't done it?

 

[elfsprin]

It's also a little disappointing that only guys are posting here. We all know every girl does it too, although maybe not as much due to a less-raging sex drive (compared to men on average) and more opportunities for actual sex with another person. It'd be interesting to know how women's etiology and experiences differed from men's, if it does at all.

i am a woman. i masturbate frequently.

 

[Melllvar]

Apologies, I stand corrected.

 

[elfsprin]

Apologies, I stand corrected.

no problem, happens all the time.

 

[BigApplePi]

Also why are you asking about masturbation??

Jesse, Melllvar asked, "When do we get an 'Explain Sex Please' thread?"

The reason why I went after masturbation is to try and isolate explaining sex. Sex must be one of the most complicated things humans can participate in socially. We can go about seeking food, clothing, shelter and accumulation and sex seems to participate (interfere) in that in a non-direct way.

Try these:
Masturbation is to daydreaming as sex is to the real world.
Daydreaming is practice for real world action. So daydreaming is to practice as play is to action ... something like that.

 

[preilemus]

I will try to address some of the points...

First is the supposition of masturbation as an Si act.. So if one is to be understood as an IS_J, then wouldn't that make the physical aspects of it sufficient? You say you want to go beyond, but due to this framework, isn't any 'beyondness' you find completely subjective, and furthermore, outright inferior for some others?

Besides, what is the Ni explanation of knitting, the Fe explanation of drinking a milkshake, or the Se explanation of philosophising? (Perhaps poor examples, but maybe you get my point).

Masturbation is inherently sensational... You can't orgasm just by 'thinking' about it (though if you can, do be a good chap and share your secrets), though I would also venture a guess that it is very difficult to orgasm by focusing purely on the sensations, so arousal has much to do with fantasy (in this case) as well.

It's self-impression. Taking the joys of the world, and pushing them upon yourself when it won't do it by its own accord. I'm not saying it can't, but it's a willful weilding of one's interpretations.

I also have to make the point though that I do not create any sort of narrative in my own fantasies. In fact, I don't even fully imagine another person; all I can really manage is disembodied genitalia. I think the reason for this is that most of my visualisation efforts and focus is mainly on myself, and trying to manipulate the way in which I am perceiving pleasure. Of course, I would never dream of calling my masturbation experience "usual," so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Bird]

I do not enjoy masturbating particularly at all. Generally
I end up much more sexually frustrated than beforehand which
is usually the reason I even decide to touch myself: sexual
frustration.

I have a problem climaxing. The only time I ever really
masturbate is if I want to try to make myself reach that
level. I try really hard to focus on the feeling. I read
a book about it (yeah, I'm super lame) and this book suggested
to me that I focus on the feeling. I'm really bad at focusing
my mind however so my brain is usually focused on being
focused. Focusing on the sensations doesn't really help me
to climax so my mind usually deviates after awhile to things
such as males and oral sex or being maimed to death by
massive wild animals. I don't look at porn. So I cannot really
go into that area of topic. Ideally I would like that sense of
security during sex. It is likely that I cannot make myself
orgasm because I lack that concept of fusion or one-ness or
whatever romantic bullshit you want to attempt to label it with
and I cannot achieve this with my partners because I generally
hate them and the way they look at me. So smug and satisfied
like they are owning and controlling my body. Poor, sweet,
stupid things.


I guess I can't really answer your question(s). The ultimate goal
of masturbating is self-satisfaction and I obviously cannot do
that.

Can it be blank? Yes.
Can it stay blank? Yes.
I think every person is different mentally in how they reach
sexual satisfaction. What works for others may not work for you.
For example: fetishes.



I have a really difficult time becoming aroused when being intimate
with males. This being the case I rely heavily on my brain when
I am having sex with someone. In which case I generally think of
this other man being dominant in the bedroom. I don't know why
this arouses me so much more infinitely than being physically touched.


Jesus. This just makes me disgusted with myself. Hello failure of a female!

Really it comes down to the fact that we know what we like.
And when we think of what we like, fantasize about what we like
the hormones we release are much more potent for lack of better
phrasing. Why is this?
I have no idea.
Allow me to peruse various neurological articles.


Personally I respond well to verbalized sexual acts.
I believe this to be because it makes me feel very secure.


I'm going to stop rambling on and on and on now especially
since I don't think I'm giving you the answers you want or
are even necessarily looking for.

 

[BigApplePi]

I read ahead and found you posted you are a woman. I am glad to hear that and tempted to ask if you believe there are differences (thought difference during masturbation) for a woman. But that may be as unfair as asking a male the same thing. By differences I mean after subtracting social and basic physiological differences.

first, is visualization absolutely required for coming to occur? ...
if it is not required, why is it preferred? it would seem that visualization commonly increases arousal, thereby making an ejaculation more pleasurable. why is that, neurologically speaking? in what way are arousal and visualization related, if it is the case that visualization is primarily related to arousal specifically?

I would say there are physiological desires and socio-sexual desires. The non-thinking person doesn't separate those. We are separating here. So yes visualization and a storyline isn't required. But those storylines have an enormous value which we haven't explored. When satisfied they give great psychic pleasure (for example relief from loneliness). My guess is the reason a storyline enhances pleasure (satisfaction) is because we merge BOTH pleasure satisfactions. We are deceived into believing (for the moment) the pleasure is from the genitals. The pleasure is from BOTH the genitals and the brain. (Did we know this all along and I am just naive?)

my own reply to this question would be as follows:

first, visualization is not necessary for one to come. you don't even have to be alive to come (google postmortem electroejaculation). that being said, i can find no definitive research concerning how this act of involuntary ejaculation compares to having an orgasm.

Yes.

second, i can personally say that it is possible to induce myself to the point of orgasm while not visualizing anything pornographic. it is even possible to achieve an orgasm while mentally distracted / not thinking about the fact that i'm masturbating. orgasm is definitely, imo, the correct term for what happens under these circumstances, though there are differences between orgasming under these conditions. for example, my overall body temperature does not increase, nor do i experience muscle tension in other parts of my body in the same way.

Would you say when this happens that there is less pleasure, less enjoyment? Would there be the pleasure of release and relaxation, but not the same high?

ime, visualization is directly related to arousal. i would wager that this is probably the case for everyone else as well, though that's pure unfounded assumption / intuitive guesswork.

as for how and why visualization and arousal are related, i'd have to simply state that many of the mechanisms behind arousal and the orgasm are not yet fully understood. in other words, i have no scientifically backed answer. i don't think anyone else has the answer either, though there are plenty of hypotheses floating around.

By arousal do you mean increased awareness of what is going on? Visualization would be an add-on. I'm not sure but in relating arousal to orgasm, one is increasing stimulation to the point where no further stimulation can occur. The sensory awareness fills the mind ... it blows the mind, and then what happens? Does one go unconscious? There is a peak held only by one's physiology. That is why an orgasm can last only so long. Then as the sensory awareness declines one feels relaxation.

Can we drop the itch/scratch comparison and take up the sneeze? Isn't the sneeze like an orgasm? No visualization required!

The Guide to Getting it On

, which has a section on Sex & the Human Condition that "deals with sex for the disabled as well bodily or psychological conditions that affect sex life[.]" may also interest you. additional information can be found here.

Great find according to reviews. Don't know if I'll get it, but do you have it? You could become resident guru!

 

[BigApplePi]

I find your post very interesting. The more unusual you think you are, they more that tells me there is a clue as to what's going on.

Ideally I would like that sense of
security during sex.

Could that be a clue? I'm for security.

It is likely that I cannot make myself
orgasm because I lack that concept of fusion or one-ness or
whatever romantic bullshit you want to attempt to label it with
and I cannot achieve this with my partners because I generally
hate them and the way they look at me. So smug and satisfied
like they are owning and controlling my body. Poor, sweet,
stupid things.

I'm male and a woman whom I don't wish to join certainly doesn't turn me on. When I was in my thirties and horny I thought all I had to do was visit a prostitute. But that didn't turn me on at all.

What works for others may not work for you.
For example: fetishes.

Agreed but satisfactory sex has a lot of requirements. If one meets only one or two, they go after those.

I have a really difficult time becoming aroused when being intimate
with males. This being the case I rely heavily on my brain when
I am having sex with someone. In which case I generally think of
this other man being dominant in the bedroom. I don't know why
this arouses me so much more infinitely than being physically touched.

I'm not a psychology expert but if the other person is dominant you don't have to make decisions. That gives one the illusion one is being taken care of. That is an illusion.

Jesus. This just makes me disgusted with myself. Hello failure of a female!

I remember going through a phase where I wanted to save females. This was a mistake. People have to save themselves.

Personally I respond well to verbalized sexual acts.
I believe this to be because it makes me feel very secure.

This tells me security is very important.

I'm going to stop rambling on and on and on now especially
since I don't think I'm giving you the answers you want or
are even necessarily looking for.

No. See my introductory statement.

 

[BigApplePi]

Besides, what is the Ni explanation of knitting, the Fe explanation of drinking a milkshake, or the Se explanation of philosophising? (Perhaps poor examples, but maybe you get my point).

I fancy myself as an INTP. I don't think I'm talking to an INTP. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Those are great examples and I certaintly DON'T or refuse to get your point. I would LOVE to go after the Ni of knitting, the Fe of milkshakes and the Se of philosophizing. Let me restrain myself though.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Mental images can be just as effective as real ones, for turning up the sex-drive.

Masturbation for me is often a habitual thing, your body comes to expect it (heheheh pun) at certain times. Its mostly a maintenance thing.

I agree with this. It's nothing that special, it's just sexual tension people build up and want to release at some point. Boredom is a great cause for masturbation as well. Besides, people liking doing things that make them feel good. It's like a high I suppose. You don't have to make everything philosophical and deep as an INTP. Some things in life are just dumb and fun, I guess.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Physiologically, the three common areas in the brain for the orgasm of both men and women are the nucleus accumbens (that seems almost like a pun, doesn't it?) which is associated with the brains reward (dopaminergic) system; the anterior cingulate cortex, which is associated with pain, pleasure, and craving; and the amygdala which is associated with processing emotions.

The first two are obvious, but the amygdala is what's interesting. The amygdala is important for processing emotional memory (emotions associated with memories) and emotional learning (similar to classical conditioning). Having an emotional component involved in orgasm itself, and not just arousal (which could be explained by the nucleus accumbens and cingulate cortex) seems to indicate a need for something more than just the physical stimulation.

I think it's interesting that orgasms can vary in intensity, and this often will have a correlation with the emotional aspect of the orgasm. Doing that quickie, with the pants just pulled down enough to whip it out, trying to rub it out before the other people in the house decide to come talk to you is never as good as the pants completely off, nobody else around and nothing to do all day, tantric masturbation. And having sex with someone you actually care about is a more intense orgasm than getting an Old Fashioned in a public restroom (I can only assume, having only done the former).

Customarily, males also seem to require novelty to reach the same intensity, at least if the orgasms are too frequent (if a male waits long enough between orgasms, they won't lose their intensity even with lack of "innovation"). This might be one of the reasons why quite often the men who get the most sex are also the ones more likely to cheat on a significant other or not stay with a single significant other for very long before finding someone else.

Sex addiction has been likened to drug addiction, and considering the physiological components of the two are very similar (dopamergic reward system) it doesn't seem far-fetched that one would built up a tolerance to it. I think that people can also build up a tolerance to the emotional aspect as well. People who have more sex may pursue it more fervently, but probably do not value orgasm as much as someone who does it less often and only with someone they care deeply about.

Perhaps all that to say that the narrative, the imagery, and the atmosphere is required in order to stimulate the amygdala along with the nucleus accumbens and anterior cingulate cortex. Orgasm may be possible with nothing more than the tactile aspect, but it will lack the intensity that including all three aspects will have.

 

[Moocow]

I don't understand what you see in sex that makes it so complicated. It seems like a rather simple idea to me... we're animals, and animals have been genetically programmed to reproduce as soon as they're capable. It's part of being an animal, and it doesn't really require complex thought or philosophy, or even an intense imagination... just a lot of hormones.
It operates on emotions in a somewhat simple way I believe: less sex means stronger emotions, more sex means assuaged emotions.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

When I first saw this thread title I didn't want to bother because I felt it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I'd say something crude and that would be about it. I still might as I haven't thought out what to write yet.

Masturbation is the most pleasurable form of escapism if you reach it's conclusion. Everyone has their own sexual preferences (hair color, body type, position, location, physical and/or emotional circumstance... the list could go on and on) Masturbation can help you clarify what those preferences are to some extent. Example: If you are watching porn and see someone tossing Sasha Grey's salad and feel an extra surge of arousal then you might want to try it with your gf (however you might find out actually doing that is pretty gross).

So intellectually you can view masturbation as a means of exploring a part of your psyche.

So can it be blank? I suppose but it might just be going through the motions () that satisfies biological conditions. I would doubt it would satisfy psychological ones.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I don't understand what you see in sex that makes it so complicated. It seems like a rather simple idea to me... we're animals, and animals have been genetically programmed to reproduce as soon as they're capable. It's part of being an animal, and it doesn't really require complex thought or philosophy, or even an intense imagination... just a lot of hormones.
It operates on emotions in a somewhat simple way I believe: less sex means stronger emotions, more sex means assuaged emotions.

People talking is just people talking, but there are entire fields of study and numerous volumes written on the subject of group dynamics, sociology, cultural anthropology, and psychology.

The earth is just a hunk of rock hurtling through space, but we have vast scientific fields dedicated to the geology, chemistry, and thermodynamics of the earth and the influence of other cosmic bodies on it's orbit and orientation.

Sex is just sex, obviously. But, as humans, it becomes more complex. There is more than just the drive involved, since we have the reflective consciousness to consider sex conceptually, physiologically, and psychologically. As humans, we don't just have sex, we think about sex using language and imaginations, we innovate novel ways of obtaining sexual gratification, we market sexual images to other people, and we associate deep emotional, sociological, and even philosophical meanings with it.

From a more pragmatic view, why not talk about it? Should we instead make another thread asking if other INTP's wipe their ass forwards or backwards so we can question our own INTP status when we find out we do it differently?

 

[BigApplePi]

I don't understand what you see in sex that makes it so complicated.

Yes it doesn't have to be complicated. Just let it operate as it will and everything will be all right. Right?

But suppose things aren't going right. Suppose they are going well but we want to optimize the situation. Then looking at details is an option to going out and experimenting.

 

[snafupants]

I don't understand what you see in sex that makes it so complicated. It seems like a rather simple idea to me... we're animals, and animals have been genetically programmed to reproduce as soon as they're capable. It's part of being an animal, and it doesn't really require complex thought or philosophy, or even an intense imagination... just a lot of hormones.
It operates on emotions in a somewhat simple way I believe: less sex means stronger emotions, more sex means assuaged emotions.

Post ejaculation arousal of the sympathetic nervous system - at least for men - belies that whole sex and strong emotions being inversely proportional thing. Your theory works for the short term though...sort of.

 

[soraya]

Uh, you requested more women so here I am hah!

This thread actually hooked me because of the 'thinking off' bit. I started doing that when I was a kid but I didn't know what it was so it used to freak me out. Since I had no idea what it was I was doing nor did I even understand what sex was (seriously I was really young at this time) its impossible I could have imagined something I had no concept of. At that age it was all about the sensation (my Se). I thought about the sensations I had accidentally experienced and if I imagined the sensations I could come without touching myself.

As I got older that changed. I can still think off, but it's much more rewarding to ...touch. Strangely enough, I think that's where it switched from being an Se action to an Ni action. Even though S is sensing I would say that what I experience is definitely an N experience. Just because something is sensual doesn't mean it is sensing. To answer your question here, I have to imagine something. I can't have a blank mind, I just get bored. The Ni image in my mind is so strong and I can do whatever I want with it. The Ni loves to experiment so anything is possible. In fact, it's only when my Se is bothering me and I can't connect to my Ni, something annoying in the environment or a worry I can't get out of my mind, that I can't orgasm. When I'm completely in tune with my Ni i orgasm...a lot.

Also, whoever was talking about the submissive role...that's also how it is with me. In my fantasies I am always in the submissive role. I can't get off if I imagine myself being dominant. Perhaps its got to do with my Jness (since my Te, being an extroverted function, is naturally linked to my Se, which inhibits my sex drive). I get sick of always being in control and making the decisions. The bedroom is the one place I want to be able to let go of that and let the Ni completely override all other functions, letting me get lost in the pure perception.

Was that the intellectualization of it you were wanting ApplePi?
1. I would really be very very interested in learning how you all find that your Ti affects masturbation.
2. If you have any questions for women please feel free to ask me.
3. Question for the guys: when you masturbate to an imagined fantasy do you picture a woman or just the concept of a woman. Furthermore, if you do picture an actual woman is she someone you invented, someone you find attractive (actress etc.), or someone you actually know?

 

[Melllvar]

Uh, you requested more women so here I am hah!

Man, I wish it was that easy in real life.

2. If you have any questions for women please feel free to ask me.

Actually you guys have already had some pretty interesting comments. It seems like there's a lot more variation in how girls experience it versus guys, among other things.

3. Question for the guys: when you masturbate to an imagined fantasy do you picture a woman or just the concept of a woman. Furthermore, if you do picture an actual woman is she someone you invented, someone you find attractive (actress etc.), or someone you actually know?

Yay masturbation stories!

Actually, I'll just be honest: for me at least, if I understand you right, it would be an actual woman, although not necessarily one who actually exists. For the rest, probably the first and last choices, although from conversations I've had I think a lot of guys do think about hot famous people they like. I find that a little too unrealistic. Even with an imaginary person, there's the possibility of actually meeting somebody like that. The idea of hooking up with [insert hot famous person] just seems too far fetched. Or maybe I'm just not turned on by celebrity.

As for someone you actually know, that's definitely not uncommon, although sometimes I personally avoid it because it seems a little weird... I mean the next time I meet the person it's like, "man I was just fantasizing about you yesterday while I..." For some reason the thought occurs to me, "Should I really be thinking about this person right now?" It feels a little wrong on one level, although I wouldn't be surprised if I'm in a small minority for having any kind of moral issue with this.

 

[BigApplePi]

soraya that is a refreshing post. There is a lot there so I don't know how much I can get to as I'm having a busy day.

Uh, you requested more women so here I am hah!

This thread actually hooked me because of the 'thinking off' bit. I started doing that when I was a kid but I didn't know what it was so it used to freak me out. Since I had no idea what it was I was doing nor did I even understand what sex was (seriously I was really young at this time) its impossible I could have imagined something I had no concept of. At that age it was all about the sensation (my Se). I thought about the sensations I had accidentally experienced and if I imagined the sensations I could come without touching myself.

I guess I'm going to reveal my ignorance of females here but when I first read AI's post on 'thinking off' I thought the female apparatus is different. A female can squeeze her thighs, cross her legs or use vaginal muscles to affect her clitoris. I wanted to eliminate those possibilities right away. May I? Are you talking pure imagination? (I did mention male wet dreams in a later post.)

Second question. Do you think of yourself as unusual or special? Or do you believe you could take another woman, talk to her in private and teach her how to do the same thing? As a male, I would stay out of it, but I'm wondering if this is a topic to discuss among those of your very special sex?

Later. I shall return.

 

[JoeJoe]

I thought about the sensations I had accidentally experienced and if I imagined the sensations I could come without touching myself.

There is still hope for the paralyzed!! Maybe? Not meaning to step to close here, but do you think the bodily reaction in your private parts was essential to coming, or would it also work, if they were anesthesized?

3. Question for the guys: when you masturbate to an imagined fantasy do you picture a woman or just the concept of a woman. Furthermore, if you do picture an actual woman is she someone you invented, someone you find attractive (actress etc.), or someone you actually know?

It's usually concrete, I'm not sure what you mean with "concept of a woman" (hey, good film title).
However, I often don't live the fantasy through but kind of flick through different women, one after the other. The result is, that I sometimes get kind of "stuck", because I can't decide which woman to choose. I had a time, when I got close to orgasm, I would imagine lots of women, one after the other, climaxing. That really turned me on.

Second part: I don't invent a woman for my fantasies "from scrap". It's sometimes a celebrity, sometimes a hot girl from a picture I saw on the internet, sometimes a character from a book (Cersei Lannister anyone?) but most often it is somebody I know or have seen in real life (e.g. girls, that always ride on the same bus as I do). I wonder how aware girls are of how often guys jerk off to them. Although, maybe they are just unaware of how often I jerk off to them.

About what Mellvar said: I sometimes have that issue, but it doesn't cross my mind when I really meet them. There are some girls, where I decided against fantasizing about them (especially younger ones ) but so far I have always disregarded that after a while...

 

[BigApplePi]

There is still hope for the paralyzed!! Maybe? Not meaning to step to close here, but do you think the bodily reaction in your private parts was essential to coming, or would it also work, if they were anesthesized?

2*Joe. I think anesthesizing would bring about a malfunction.

Years ago I did a 24-hour bicycle marathon. Sitting on that saddle so long compressed my urethral nerve. Next day I told my then girlfriend, "Forget about it." I was totally impotent. That was before the modern saddle which has a valley where you sit so now that doesn't happen.