Eureka moment regarding non-Trans People

[Reluctantly]

They are uncomfortable with people they can't understand or relate to. They fear what is different. They are traditional people that are unwilling to accept anything outside their narrow world-view.

No hear me out guys.

See they can't deal with the fact that something like gender, which they take for granted, could have a hard code in the brain. This scares them, so it's easier to see trans as fucked up (which some could be, but that doesn't have to have anything to do with being trans) or argue that gender doesn't exist at all. See if you deny what makes you uncomfortable, then you don't have to feel uncomfortable. Think about it, if trans are fucked up or gender doesn't exist at all, then their world view can't be threatened. It's the only stance someone can take against what they can't accept. Perhaps one day they will outgrow the childish urge to fear what is different.

 

[redbaron]

I think the sad part is that most of this would be true even unironically.

 

[QuickTwist]

LOL this is priceless.

Can't wait to see how this develops.

 

[Jennywocky]

LOL this is priceless.

Can't wait to see how this develops.

What's so priceless about it? It's just rudimentary sarcasm and already made its point.

 

[Rook]

Hey Reluc, just because you had the privilege in life to be comfortable with the a-statistical humans doesn't mean you can enforce your world view on everyone else, ok?

I'm sick of normaphobes going around on the internet harassing those who are comfortable with their lifestyle identity, leave them alone!

They just want to have kids and lawnmowers and cat bells and create a world that mirrors the world that was that was the world, they just want to continue charging into atomic flux as ape becomes ash becomes ape becomes egg 'o maggot.

It's these sick normaphobes that are ruining America right now, yeah, they just can't accept that the majority of humans don't like to lick the eyes of chaos, sucking upon the teats of confusion to herald in a new age of mindless enjoyment of the complex.

(EH well my real opinion: humans are humans. In 200 years perhaps in some cunt trees "normative rights" will be a thing or not, as some styles of life into minority fade. I don't give a flying fuck about debates such as these, humans will always find polarizing realms and if a person chooses first to delve into the general before evaluating the individuals in their immediate meatspace, then they're following a system of belief. ("The word of god/politburo/professor/daddy before the perception of ape")

Ya'll ain't made to comprehend the state of an entire country, much less that of a planet, we're made to fling shite from the tree, savour a berry or two and perhaps admire the contours of yonder mountain)

Hmmm... Lacedaemonian example:

This is almost unrelated but of interest, I like now and then to read history, even with our enjoyment of recent leaps in technological circle jerking the dna of humans has not changed much(I think) so patterns be there etc.
{Courtesy of the wikimedia foundation. Any opinions expressed not necessarily those of the Rook etc. etc.)

Spoiler

There is some evidence that in late-Classical and Hellenistic Sparta boys were expected to take an older male mentor, usually an unmarried young man. However, there is no evidence of this in archaic Sparta. According to some sources, the older man was expected to function as a kind of substitute father and role model to his junior partner; however, others believe it was reasonably certain that they had sexual relations (the exact nature of Spartan pederasty is not entirely clear).[93] It is notable, however, that the only contemporary source with direct experience of the agoge, Xenophon, explicitly denies the sexual nature of the relationship.[90]


Unlike Athenian women who wore heavy, concealing clothes and were rarely seen outside the house, Spartan women wore dresses (peplos) slit up the side to allow freer movement and moved freely about the city, either walking or driving chariots. Girls as well as boys exercised, possibly in the nude, and young women as well as young men may have participated in the Gymnopaedia ("Festival of Nude Youths").




Another practice that was mentioned by many visitors to Sparta was the practice of “wife-sharing”. In accordance with the Spartan belief that breeding should be between the most physically fit parents, many older men allowed younger, more fit men, to impregnate their wives. Other unmarried or childless men might even request another man’s wife to bear his children if she had previously been a strong child bearer. For this reason many considered Spartan women or This practice was encouraged in order that women bear as many strong-bodied children as they could. The Spartan population was hard to maintain due to the constant absence and loss of the men in battle and the intense physical inspection of newborns.

Spartan women were also literate and numerate, a rarity in the ancient world. Furthermore, as a result of their education and the fact that they moved freely in society engaging with their fellow (male) citizens, they were notorious for speaking their minds even in public. Plato, in the middle of the fourth century, described women's curriculum in Sparta as consisting of gymnastics and mousike (music and arts). Plato goes on to praise Spartan women's ability when it came to philosophical discussion.

Most importantly, Spartan women had economic power because they controlled their own properties, and those of their husbands. It is estimated that in later Classical Sparta, when the male population was in serious decline, women were the sole owners of at least 35% of all land and property in Sparta. The laws regarding a divorce were the same for both men and women. Unlike women in Athens, if a Spartan woman became the heiress of her father because she had no living brothers to inherit , the woman was not required to divorce her current spouse in order to marry her nearest paternal relative.

Now this is a militant primate collective that kept slaves and bested Fraulein Hitler at newborn selections, but many aspects of the above described society are the exact opposite of radically stereotypical conservative or Wahhabist or stuck-up or wtfever values.

(They also be authoritarian and so on yes, but I'm not handling politics/freedom here, merely... perception of normality within daily life and how feeble this construction can be, especially funny to see humans clinging onto old normals (Zoroastrians) or tolling the bell for a "new normal", which is just a normal normal, as change is inherent in every moment of existence. )

Eh, not much novelty in this theme, perhaps only in terms of technological capability... hmmm... furry rights... rights to have sex in public parks(I'm sure dogs can... can animals have sex in the parks of cities?) Costumes now, DNA in the future...

What a century to be alive in.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

I guess the point is that every trans person is kooky in each their own particular way?

It is an artifact of human physiology to believe oneself to be more unique and less predictable than one is.

PS
I know next to nothing about this stuff. Just supplying the daily dose of cynicism.

 

[Grayman]

If you see three sticks and someone claims, what you thought is by far the shortest stick, is actually the longest. Do you trust your own eyes or what they are telling you?

I see a person with a male body or female body. If the female thinks like a male, they are a female that thinks like a male, nothing more to it.

 

[Black Rose]

I now know why I identify with Aerial the little mermaid. She and Pinkie Pie from my little pony are both ENFP. That makes me both trans pony and trans mermaid. Naruto is ENFP so I'm also trans ninja. I believe in the singularity so everything I just said makes me trans-human, because I am a pony, a mermaid, and a ninja. I am proud of who I am, especially since my avatar is female and a cat. It is so liberating knowing people here accept my feminine ENFP trans-human qualities. non-trans people do not affect my life much. I do like talking to my therapist.

 

[oxyjen]

If you see three sticks and someone claims, what you thought is by far the shortest stick, is actually the longest. Do you trust your own eyes or what they are telling you?

I see a person with a male body or female body. If the female thinks like a male, they are a female that thinks like a male, nothing more to it.

If you think you can know if a person is male or female by looking at them, then you've really simplified this biology and neuroscience thing.

There are sex organs, hormones, chromosomes, and likely neurological (gender identity) issues at play. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Silliness.

 

[Grayman]

There are sex organs, hormones, chromosomes, and likely neurological (gender identity) issues at play. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Silliness.

Yes but all those are observable things even if it requires a blood test or a person to take their clothes off you can easily see the hormones, the chromosomes and the organs. The only non-observable is the gender identity which is a feeling based thing.

People, especially feeling based thinkers, think their feelings reflect reality. They are dead wrong. I feel stupid therefore I am stupid. I feel smart therefore I am smart. I feel like woman therefore I am a women.

Feeling stupid doesn't keep you from passing your next exam in school and feeling smart isn't going to help you pass. Feeling like a woman isn't going to help you fulfill the reproductive role of being a women.

Identity? Everything about you is wiring and that is just personality. So your personality is more like a woman even though you have a mans body? What does that prove? That you are a man who thinks more like a woman and enjoys women things? That you like to wear dresses and put on makeup? I am sure that putting on makeup wasn't a design of evolution when evolution created the biological construct called 'female'.

If it doesn't have to do with reproduction then it isn't gender it is just personality and personality is far, far, far from binary and that is why those gender isn't binary advocates get things even more confused. Personality == identity, gender == reproductive role. SIMPLE, lets not overthink it!

 

[Black Rose]

If it doesn't have to do with reproduction then it isn't gender it is just personality and personality is far, far, far from binary and that is why those gender isn't binary advocates get things even more confused. Personality == identity, gender == reproductive role. SIMPLE, lets not overthink it!

Sex change is the ultimate commitment. But I am fine with my personality. I have no reason to change my body because the one I have does not feel wrong. But that, of course, if it did would combine personality and sex.

 

[Hadoblado]

@Grayman

Gender: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

When you talk about reproduction, that seems like you're not talking about gender, but sex instead.

Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Assume I'm a next-level surgeon. I sneak up on you in the middle of the night and perform some cheeky gender reassignment on you. You wake up with female sex organs. What immediately changes?

 

[redbaron]

Reluctantly's post just gets more and more accurate.

 

[Grayman]

@Grayman


When you talk about reproduction, that seems like you're not talking about gender, but sex instead.



Assume I'm a next-level surgeon. I sneak up on you in the middle of the night and perform some cheeky gender reassignment on you. You wake up with female sex organs. What immediately changes?

If you change me into a women I guess I would be a woman. Can I bear children? If I get the all the advantages of the change I could go for that plus it would be an interesting experience. If it was a botch job and I end up just looking weird like some cross between then yeah that would suck. Either I get he full experience or stay as I am or that doctor will disappear in the middle of the night never to be seen again.


You are using the newer 'progressive' meaning of gender which was invented recently. The part 'gen' equates to genesis or creation or to produce. It is ones role in reproduction which can include cultural or social role, nurturing, and biological sex.

Someone described the progressive version to me like being in some one else's body all of a sudden and feeling out of place. That makes no sense because if you legs suddenly got longer it would just take time to adjust. If you grew up in the male or female body there shouldn't be an adjustment period since the adjustment occurs as you grow and change very slowly.

 

[redbaron]

They are uncomfortable with people they can't understand or relate to. They fear what is different. They are traditional people that are unwilling to accept anything outside their narrow world-view.

Just gets more and more true hey.

I'm leaving threads like this open because I'm hoping people can maybe discuss the issue (it's an issue worth discussing) without being hateful and ignorant about it. If you can't show any sort of respect towards an already severely discriminated against group of people, and are going to invalidate their grievances and issues at every turn - maybe don't discuss the topic.

No one would ever "choose" to be trans, it's not a matter of "adjusting" and there's an abundance of empirical evidence to show that all attempts at trying to help trans people "normalise" and come to terms with their "true" sex, invariably leads to further suicides, depression and decline in health.

 

[Hadoblado]

The one I'm using is the first one that came up on the googles, and it happened to be congruent with the current psychological literature on the topic. Language changes, and not always for the better, but this change in definition reflects a growing understanding.

Psychology dictionary: -

Gender:

A psychological phenomenon that refers to learned sex-related behaviors and attitudes of males and females.

Gender identity:

One's sense of maleness or femaleness; usually includes awareness and acceptance of one's biological sex.

Sex differences:

Biologically based characteristics that distinguish males from females.

You seem to be choosing which definition you'd prefer. People who study this stuff for a living feel that this distinction is required. What reason do you have for thinking them wrong? What would happen if instead of repurposing the old word 'gender', they made a completely new word? Would that make you accept the difference? Does it really just come down to a word game?

 

[redbaron]

***FIRST MODERATOR THING I'VE SAID***

You can't "socialise" someone to be transgender, any more than you can "socialise" a gay person to be straight or vice-versa. It's not a product of someone being "fucked up".

I'm setting this bar as the absolute minimum starting point for a discussion on this topic. If you simply don't agree, or you can't accept that this is the case - then don't engage. I'm serious. there's no shortage of people who will disregard all sorts of scientific evidence just to point out to trans people that they think the trans people aren't really trans or something, and it's just awful.

If you don't understand this or you disagree, and you want to tell trans people how you don't understand and you think they're silly, do it somewhere else. This place is a small community, and there are more people here that might be severely affected by these words than you'd think.

Stop.

 

[Grayman]

***FIRST MODERATOR THING I'VE SAID***

You can't "socialise" someone to be transgender, any more than you can "socialise" a gay person to be straight or vice-versa. It's not a product of someone being "fucked up".

I'm setting this bar as the absolute minimum starting point for a discussion on this topic. If you simply don't agree, or you can't accept that this is the case - then don't engage. I'm serious. there's no shortage of people who will disregard all sorts of scientific evidence just to point out to trans people that they think the trans people aren't really trans or something, and it's just awful.

If you don't understand this or you disagree, and you want to tell trans people how you don't understand and you think they're silly, do it somewhere else. This place is a small community, and there are more people here that might be severely affected by these words than you'd think.

Stop.

Are you trying to brow beat people into believing something based on a moral agenda? It isn't possible for me to believe in something just you because demand that I do. Threaten all you want but it just shows what kind of person you are. Make a case and if you have some kind of issue with something specific that I said or felt I was attacking someone specifically then help me identify what and where because maybe there was a misunderstanding.

This thread was started making an accusation about people who don't understand the transgender perspective so it is really odd that you would kick out everyone who was addressed in the OP. Your first moderation was a very BAD one indeed.

 

[redbaron]

Grayman I wonder if at any point it's going to click in your head WHY Reluctantly made this thread, and just how perfectly you fit the description he's given?

The kind of person I am? You mean the kind of person who doesn't jump into a topic like this uninformed, spewing very ignorant shit that marginalises a group of people who receive incalculable amounts of discrimination and vilification already?

Yes, I'm actually quite proud to not be that person, and to be someone who looks outside the bubble of my own experiences and takes a position of empathy and concern for that group of people, a group so often rejected by even their own family and friends, having to be told over and over by the ignorant masses how "fucked up" they are and how their problems are "just all in your head". As if gender identity is some kind of "puzzle" to be solved and they're "getting it wrong."

And yeah right, trans people are "browbeating" all those poor heteronormative people by asking them to have some fucking understanding and to not vomit hateful vitriol at them at every opportunity. What does it fucking matter to you if someone is trans? You can't understand the concept of gender dysphoria?

Then fine, ask questions, be open and respect the way they view gender. But you aren't, you're sitting here trying to lecture people as if you "know the answer" to why trans people are trans.

 

[oxyjen]

People believe it not because of a "moral agenda," but because of scientific research and evidence.

It's the same level of stupidity as saying people with Alzheimer's need gingko biloba and start using a day planner.

 

[Grayman]

The one I'm using is the first one that came up on the googles, and it happened to be congruent with the current psychological literature on the topic. Language changes, and not always for the better, but this change in definition reflects a growing understanding.

Psychology dictionary: -

Gender:


Gender identity:


Sex differences:


You seem to be choosing which definition you'd prefer. People who study this stuff for a living feel that this distinction is required. What reason do you have for thinking them wrong? What would happen if instead of repurposing the old word 'gender', they made a completely new word? Would that make you accept the difference? Does it really just come down to a word game?

To clarify, I don't care what a man does even if it is becoming a women. I just don't see them as a woman just because they see themselves as a woman. Do you have specific evidence of the brain scans and such?

I would say that I disagree with trans-women in women's sports and other activities that put woman at a disadvantage due to not developing with natural testosterone.

 

[Grayman]

People believe it not because of a "moral agenda," but because of scientific research and evidence.

It's the same level of stupidity as saying people with Alzheimer's need gingko biloba and start using a day planner.

I did't say that. I said that Redbaron made us aware of his moral agenda with his 'get in line or get out' attitude instead of making a real case for his position.

 

[redbaron]

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...e-have-different-brain-activity-when-touched/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-science-can-tell-us-about-trans-peoples-brainsand-what-it-cannot

http://blog.donders.ru.nl/?p=6624&lang=en

Literally a 30 second cursory Google search.

 

[redbaron]

I did't say that. I said that Redbaron made us aware of his moral agenda to with his 'get in line or get out' attitude instead of making a real case for his position.

Or how about: have some basic respect and do some elementary research before you start regurgitating ignorant vitriol about a group of people regularly marginalised to the point of severe depression and suicide.

 

[Grayman]

Or how about: have some basic respect and do some elementary research before you start regurgitating ignorant vitriol about a group of people regularly marginalised to the point of severe depression and suicide.

They made a claim about my perspective and I offered my actual perspective. If someone cannot handle the point of this thread, don't enter it or don't allow its existence.

 

[redbaron]

The claims about your perspective and your actual perspective are the same thing btw. You could have just not said anything.

This isn't about 'handling' a point Grayman, and that you even seek to turn this into some fucking points scoring event shows just how little empathy or understanding you have of transgender issues in the first place.

 

[Grayman]

The claims about your perspective and your actual perspective are the same thing btw. You could have just not said anything.

Enjoy your echo chamber then.

 

[redbaron]

Come back when you've managed to process the large amounts of scientific evidence indicating that there's a physiological basis for gender dysphoria, and you're ready to discuss this topic with actual definitions of words, and provide evidence in the affirmative of your position:

Because all up-to-date evidence suggests that you're actually wrong. All anecdotal evidence from people with gender dysphoria suggests that you're actually wrong. And yet you will still insist that there's something trans people are not getting, that they just can't come to terms with their dick or pussy or something.

It takes deliberate ignorance and a stunning lack of empathy to cling to this view in the face of all the evidence and testimony against it _AND_ it's potentially very, very hurtful.

Believe the Earth is flat? I don't care. Argue about it until your heart's content. But this has real consequences and I won't have it on this forum.

 

[Grayman]

This isn't about 'handling' a point Grayman, and that you even seek to turn this into some fucking points scoring event shows just how little empathy or understanding you have of transgender issues in the first place.

I honestly know what you are talking about... 'points'.

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm locking this thread again. Sorry guys.

@Grayman
I think you're ignorant, and I think you're kind of a shit person who prioritises getting negative attention over the well-being of an already marginalised group. But I don't think RB should be using his position as mod to kill opposing perspectives.

I'm not closing the topic permanently, I just don't have time to make sure everything remains peachy (I've got major assignments due). I'll reiterate that my position on this is that we should be able to have a conversation about it. But right now it seems like redbaron is so genuinely affected that I don't trust him to moderate this topic even handedly, and I don't have time.

Again I'm sorry guys. This is as heavy-handed as it gets, but I don't really have a choice.