ENTJ+INTP vs. INFJ+INTP

[Duxwing]

Dear Forum,

Although Architect will certainly advise the latter, what can you all tell me of the relative costs and benefits of pairing a well-developed ENTJ and INTP versus those of pairing a well-developed INFJ and INTP. For me, the matter is purely hypothetical: I seek no lover. Rather, I've been intrigued by these two pairings and would like to see them compared and contrasted in greater detail. Hence, I pose to you the question, O silicon surfers:

"In matters of romance, the INTP is oft advised to select those of the ENTJ or INFJ types. Which of these pairings (INTP+INFJ or INTP+ENTJ) do you see as more suitable over the long term and why? Assume that all participants are well-developed and have fully integrated their auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior functions."

Happy Thinking

-Duxwing

 

[own8ge]

ENTJ. Are you kidding?!

INTP+INFJ.

 

[Latte]

My opportunities for observation and hearing about ENTJ-INTP is very limited, but I can add something about potential pitfalls of INFJ-INTP.

I'm under the impression that one thing that can easily happen is a desync between the capacity of the INTP and the expectations and felts needs of the INFJ when it comes to the INTP taking initiative to ameliorate interpersonal predicaments through emotional conduits.

Another common problem in INTP-INFJ interactions can be INTP tendencies to act a-respectfully when it comes to probing and discussing ideas (not speaking explicitly as if they assume the INFJ would have a very good reason to conclude what they conclude). This can lead to the INFJ closing itself off when it comes to its central ideas of how it thinks the world functions, reducing the potential for mingling of intellectual worlds.
While ENTPs can often seem like complete bastards, they are usually better at automatically making sure to read the boundaries which when crossed will make the INFJ feel like its intellectual capacity is belittled. They are also usually better at control, as they tend to be more capable of what is mentioned in paragraph above.

INFJs and INTPs are both prone to being quite distant and withdrawing. While it can be good that the other person appreciates potential necessity for such at times, it can also make re-engagement difficult.

 

[redbaron]

It very much depends on the person, I think ENTJ has a better chance of success, while INFJ is kind of like the 'ideal' but not easily achievable.

I definitely enjoy my relationship with an ENTJ. We share that psychic inversion, where our stack is TNSF - Ti/Te, Ne/Ni, Si/Se, Fe/Fi. We finish each other's sentences at times and we often just share a look in certain situations and just laugh about it. Later when we comment on it, it's like we both knew exactly what the other person was thinking.

I think that for an INTP though, I am much more goal-orientated and focussed on results than most (other INTP's) and I have a strong Te - I'd say almost as strong as my Ti. We have intellectual debate and get pretty loud/opinionated - we have a tendency to both try and bulldog the conversation. But it never gets taken to heart, it leads to hilarity more often than not when we get to that point where it's just ridiculous and we burst out laughing.

I think if the INTP has a hardened shell, an ENTJ relationship is comical. The insults we have for each other can get really personal, but it just increases the hilarity. Sometimes people think we're having an argument, but it's anything but.

I am aware though that ENTJ's are not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm not blind as to why. In honesty if I try and type myself by reading descriptions of both I would give it a 50/50 split, it's really functions that lead me to decide I'm an INTP.

 

[Tony3d]

Why would you recomend an Fi over an Fe?

Wouldn't another Fe make more sense?

 

[own8ge]

Why would you recomend an Fi over an Fe?

Wouldn't another Fe make more sense?

IDK to who your question is directed towards, but.. Fi can be quite handy for us, because we as Fe are eternally checking if our feelings are valid and can't bring closure. Whereas a Fi person with the same opinion on a matter, could form an opinion we would be more then happy to agree with (Find closure in).

I agree with @Latte on most of it. Except the part:

While ENTPs can often seem like complete bastards

I know an INTP who continuously make presumptions about me and my fellow ISTP and ENTP mates like we are evil, I hope 'you' are not as ignorant I mean, I consider it rational for a shitload of types to make presumptions because their dichotomies are meant to be so irrational, but for an INTP. God Damnit! Bring back some of that good old childish trust!

 

[redbaron]

Why would you recomend an Fi over an Fe?

Wouldn't another Fe make more sense?

Not if they're Fe-dom or Fe-inferior.

Example: ESFJ Fe-Dom with an INTP will probably be catastrophe.

INTP-INTP will probably fizzle out or just end in flames. Same for ISTP-INTP.

ENTJ and INFJ are actually great fits, and directly compliment our own Ti-Ne.

Fe shouldn't be satisfied by actively doing 'feely' things. It is satisfied through the usage of Ti, and by having our thoughts and systems (Ti) externally recognized. If I come up with a system that helps people get more work done in less time, being recognized for that is something I value (Fe).

 

[PhoenixRising]

INFJ is a feeler type.. an INTP will beat them to death emotionally in no time flat. Unless you are an unusually touchy-feely INTP, any feeler type is not recommended.

ENTJ, I've tried that several times. Not to stereotype, but they tend to be selfish, materialistic jerks who think they're always right. Logical argument is abundant in these relationships, since they are thinker types, but they tend to be dishonest and manipulative in their argumentative techniques in order for their opinions to "win" over everyone else's.

From what I've read, heard and experienced, neither one of these types usually works out well with an INTP. It is somewhat relative, of course, but it's more likely for an INTJ or INTP to work best. INTJs are less abrasive than ENTJs, since they are introverted and don't seek constant attention or tend to see social approval as something necessary. They do still tend to fixate on social rules though. INTPs usually get along pretty well with other INTPs, and have the same general interests and limited emotional needs. I've heard it said a lot that same-type relationships become flat, however, if we are talking about two individuals who are fully developed and have integrated all of their functions, then this isn't a problem. For INTPs, it's only when Ti becomes overly-dominant and there isn't a drive to re-engage emotional interaction that flatness becomes an issue, since the relationship becomes entirely dispassionate.

 

[Tony3d]

Fe shouldn't be satisfied by actively doing 'feely' things. It is satisfied through the usage of Ti, and by having our thoughts and systems (Ti) externally recognized. If I come up with a system that helps people get more work done in less time, being recognized for that is something I value (Fe).

I beleive the exact oposite of the Ti/Fe relationship. There is nothing more dissatisfying to me than to boil down my Fe into the practicle usage or external aplication of my Ti...

If my Fe cannot be valued on its own, then I am incomplete.

 

[SkyWalker]

according to classical MBTI matching theory the best match is all 4 letters opposite except the S/N letter.
and the second best is not alternating T/F but same.

So for INTP its ENFJ 1st and ENTJ 2nd choice (good luck with those ENTJs haha)

INFJ would best match with ENTP 1st and ENFP 2nd choice

---

the inventor of the matching theory didnt leave trails as to why unfortunately


i do understand the same T/F, same N/S, alternating I/E, alternating J/P combination (e.g. the second choice). The one with alternating T/F (e.g. first choice) I have no clue about. For example: Why would Te match with Fi (over Fe) And why would Ti match with Fe (over Fi)?

 

[SkyWalker]

It very much depends on the person, I think ENTJ has a better chance of success, while INFJ is kind of like the 'ideal' but not easily achievable.

I definitely enjoy my relationship with an ENTJ. We share that psychic inversion, where our stack is TNSF - Ti/Te, Ne/Ni, Si/Se, Fe/Fi. We finish each other's sentences at times and we often just share a look in certain situations and just laugh about it. Later when we comment on it, it's like we both knew exactly what the other person was thinking.

I think that for an INTP though, I am much more goal-orientated and focussed on results than most (other INTP's) and I have a strong Te - I'd say almost as strong as my Ti. We have intellectual debate and get pretty loud/opinionated - we have a tendency to both try and bulldog the conversation. But it never gets taken to heart, it leads to hilarity more often than not when we get to that point where it's just ridiculous and we burst out laughing.

I think if the INTP has a hardened shell, an ENTJ relationship is comical. The insults we have for each other can get really personal, but it just increases the hilarity. Sometimes people think we're having an argument, but it's anything but.

I am aware though that ENTJ's are not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm not blind as to why. In honesty if I try and type myself by reading descriptions of both I would give it a 50/50 split, it's really functions that lead me to decide I'm an INTP.

It doesnt really help your typing credibility if you think you have strong Te while you are supposed to be an Ti dom. Thats like saying that you have a strong white color while you are a black person.

Better if you dont type haha

 

[redbaron]

I beleive the exact oposite of the Ti/Fe relationship. There is nothing more dissatisfying to me than to boil down my Fe into the practicle usage or external aplication of my Ti...

If my Fe cannot be valued on its own, then I am incomplete.

You've misunderstood my post. I'm not necessarily talking about practical usage or external application of Ti, even though it could apply. To be honest I would even do away with the recognition part.

It is enough for me to simply use my Ti to do things that help other people, then my Fe is satisfied. Whether I'm recognized or not is really irrelevant, I was just using a recent example.

I kind of see the need to simply have my values validated for its own sake rather...inefficient? Not sure of the word to use. Validation for my Fe has become a by-product of the way in which I use my Ti every day. I don't consciously seek it. If it happens I appreciate it, but it's not something I've sought after for a very long time.

I think this is really the best way for any type to go. To find a way of using the dominant function in a way that satisfies the inferior at the same time.

It doesnt really help your typing credibility if you think you have strong Te while you are supposed to be an Ti dom. Thats like saying that you have a strong white color while you are a black person.

This is about as gross a misunderstanding of MBTI as there ever was, and exactly how it shouldn't be applied. Any type can learn to use any function. It is nothing like skin colour.

It benefits me in my line of work to use Te. It's something I've learned to use over a period of time, by working alongside people who use it naturally. It is situation-dependent, I use it when it is beneficial and I've become good at both recognizing these situations and actually using Te for a short period of time.

 

[redbaron]

why would Ti match with Fe (over Fi)?

Because if someone has Fe, they have Ti as well. Ti and Fe go hand in hand.

If you want to know why Fe over Fi - try having a close relationship with an INFP. I'm close to two, I'll give you a laundry list as to why strong Ti does not match up with strong Fi.

 

[Duxwing]

From my readings of the INFJ forum, I detected a sense of almost palpable warmth, much likethat experienced whilst hugging a teddy bear that had been sitting on a radiator for the past few hours. Yet it isn't overwhelming, choking, even, like ENFJ warmth; no, it's almost perfect, just enough to keep you coming back for more. Moreover, there is their mysterious Ni, which, if they let you take apart with Ti, can be quite a nice puzzle. All in all, the INFJ's I've met have been mostly warm, interesting people, albeit not very philosophically inclined.

The ENTJ's, however, were a frosty bunch of hyper-driven workaholics. Yes, they're logical, but they're also like the Energizer Bunny: they just keep going and going. Maybe nice for a friend, but something about them just seems, off. Like we're almost together, yet so far apart. The best comparison would be an Eldritch Abomination, not due to fear, but due to the mind-bending experienced during interactions with them.

-Duxwing

 

[viche]

Dear Forum,

Although Architect will certainly advise the latter, what can you all tell me of the relative costs and benefits of pairing a well-developed ENTJ and INTP versus those of pairing a well-developed INFJ and INTP. For me, the matter is purely hypothetical: I seek no lover. Rather, I've been intrigued by these two pairings and would like to see them compared and contrasted in greater detail. Hence, I pose to you the question, O silicon surfers:

Relationships between two logical types are always more problematic because they may devolve into competition, for two NTs - competition of intellectual kind. Neither partners is aware of the emotional progress of the relationship especially when both have inferior feeling function.

Saying that ENTJ matches INTP by extraversion and rational temperament. In my study of different realtionship types, extroversion-introversion has proven to be one of the main factors - greatest majority of relationships happen between E and I types. In INFJ-INTP case the extroverted impulse is insufficient, which leads to certain degree of boredom. Unlike ENTJ, however, the INFJ is capable of keeping track of INTP's emotional needs and progress of relationship and is more likely to behave amiably in case of conflict.

In socionics the relationship between TiNe and TeNi (LII and LIE) types is called Relations of Extinguishment while relationship between TiNe and NiFe (LII and IEI) types is called Relations of Benefit where the NiFe (IEI) type is in role of benefactor. Neither is better, they are just different and have their own benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Notyouraverageuser]

Im best friends with an ENTJ and I dated an INFJ for 2 and 1/2 years.

I can see myself being with the ENTJ for a really long time if she learned to not be so harsh and chilled out with the organization stuff(She keeps trying to make me a planner -.-)

The reason the INFJ and I didn't work out was because she was insecure, she undervalued my logic/point of views, and refused to listen to actual facts and CONSTANTLY referred to irrelevant things to prove her point in any situation.

Example of a convo with the INFJ:
Her- "I don't like it when you look at women's cleavage in movies."
Me- "Why? They are just actors. Its not like theres a chance we might hook up."
Her- "So you would hook up with her if you had the chance?" *teary eyed*
Me- "It doesn't matter whether I would or not. It would NEVER happen."
Her- "You pig! UGH DONT TALK TO ME."
Me- "Who wants ice cream?!"
Her- :'D

Example of convo with ENTJ:
Her: "Can you stop taking my pen? I like to write with the same pen throughout the semester."
Me: "Okay" *hides pen*
Her: "Seriously? Give it back."
Me: "Why should I?"
Her:"Because if you don't, I will start crying."
Me: "Yeah right, you wouldn't do that in the middle of class."
Her: *Tears streaming down her face*
Me: "Wowwwww, here. Damn. Everyone's looking."
Her: "Haha thats right bitch."
Me: "I think your obsession with writing with the same pen is somewhat OCD."
Her: "How so?"
blahblahblahblah

I have thousands of scenarios I can re-enact for anyone who is willing to give suggestions. Also, I can answer any questions. I know these two types very well and have spent many years dealing with them.

 

[Architect]

From my readings of the INFJ forum, I detected a sense of almost palpable warmth, much likethat experienced whilst hugging a teddy bear that had been sitting on a radiator for the past few hours. Yet it isn't overwhelming

Yes, except that INFJ's also have an edge to them. People often think of them as cold at first, until they get to kknow them.

The ENTJ's, however, were a frosty bunch of hyper-driven workaholics. Yes, they're logical, but they're also like the Energizer Bunny: they just keep going and going.

You pretty much sum it up. INFJ-INTP aside, I have a hard time imaging being with another thinker. My best friends (and lovers) have always been feelers. Speaking of the INFJ however (of course), with Ti in their tertiary it makes for just enough of an intellectual partner.

 

[Notyouraverageuser]

Yes, except that INFJ's also have an edge to them. People often think of them as cold at first, until they get to know them.

You pretty much sum it up. INFJ-INTP aside, I have a hard time imaging being with another thinker. My best friends (and lovers) have always been feelers. Speaking of the INFJ however (of course), with Ti in their tertiary it makes for just enough of an intellectual partner.

This is 100% accurate. My ex girlfriend and my mother are both INTJ's with this distinct trait about them.

I thought so too until I dated a thinker. If the thinker you are with can't show emotions well, then you will most likely be unsatisfied with the relationship. If she knows how to play the role of "feeler", you are in LUCK. It could work though, you would just have to compromise with them and make them aware of your emotional needs.

 

[Firestorm]

New to all of this but I would think it depends on what works for each person. I am INTP and my wife is INTJ . On some of our better disagreements we provide source material to each other. Then discuss after we have each had time to read said material lol.

 

[kaelum]

Married to an ENTJ and I also have an INFJ dad. I can tell my dad really enjoys my company because I make the effort to talk about his interests when I see him and I know he's hilarious when he is comfortable---but I would prefer people like him at a distance, like a friend, because I never mastered the art of having disagreements with him. Settling disagreements with my ENTJ is so much less heartache than with my dad. Both ENTJ's and INFJ's are willful (I know other people with those types) but I feel that with an INFJ, I'd have to compromise, and with an ENTJ we both care about the truth enough that there isn't ego involved when it comes to being right and wrong. Again, this is my take on the matter.

 

[Duxwing]

Married to an ENTJ and I also have an INFJ dad. I can tell my dad really enjoys my company because I make the effort to talk about his interests when I see him and I know he's hilarious when he is comfortable---but I would prefer people like him at a distance, like a friend, because I never mastered the art of having disagreements with him. Settling disagreements with my ENTJ is so much less heartache than with my dad. Both ENTJ's and INFJ's are willful (I know other people with those types) but I feel that with an INFJ, I'd have to compromise, and with an ENTJ we both care about the truth enough that there isn't ego involved when it comes to being right and wrong. Again, this is my take on the matter.

How have you managed the E-I dichotomy?

-Duxwing

 

[Reality is Optional]

I don't think an INFJ and an INTP is all that great...I mean if I ever got into a relationship with one I would accidental emotionally abuse them. And I really don't particularly like making people feel bad...my mom was an INFJ, so a lot of time when I was upset about something, instead of letting me cool off, she would threaten taking away my book if I didn't tell what was wrong. That was WAY too smothering for me. I guess it's different because she was my mom, but still. I also might have accidently made her cry too by being my blunt self... It COULD work out, but there would be a lot of kinks. As for ENTJ...well...I don't like to be controlled. They could work out, but I think the INTP would be the one always being the one submitting, and the INTP might just get sick of it one day. I know I would. Nothing ticks me off more then someone thinking they're always right. I guess there's just pros and cons to every relationship of every type. Nothing will ever be perfect. It just really matters how much effort each person is willing to put into maintaing the relationship, I think.

 

[kaelum]

How have you managed the E-I dichotomy?

-Duxwing

I'm shy (or rather I come off as shy) so I guess the only way someone would be able to be friends with me is to be an extrovert. Also I grew up with an ESTJ mother and ESFJ brother, so I'm used to letting others make the small decisions for the group (where we are having dinner, shopping, etc) and knowing when to speak up and not be a doormat with bigger decisions.

So it could just be I'm used to the E-I dynamic. I don't think I know where to begin with another introvert---who would talk first?

I don't think an INFJ and an INTP is all that great...I mean if I ever got into a relationship with one I would accidental emotionally abuse them. And I really don't particularly like making people feel bad...my mom was an INFJ, so a lot of time when I was upset about something, instead of letting me cool off, she would threaten taking away my book if I didn't tell what was wrong. That was WAY too smothering for me. I guess it's different because she was my mom, but still. I also might have accidently made her cry too by being my blunt self... It COULD work out, but there would be a lot of kinks. As for ENTJ...well...I don't like to be controlled. They could work out, but I think the INTP would be the one always being the one submitting, and the INTP might just get sick of it one day. I know I would. Nothing ticks me off more then someone thinking they're always right. I guess there's just pros and cons to every relationship of every type. Nothing will ever be perfect. It just really matters how much effort each person is willing to put into maintaing the relationship, I think.

Only my experience with my ENTJ, but he doesn't take offense to being told he's wrong and he will seriously consider your ideas if you give him reasons. I have healthy debates with him. I haven't had healthy debates with INFJs but then again, the INFJs I know are older than me, so they have the option of talking down to me.

Agreed about the control issue with ENTJs and that INFJs don't try to control. I have a thick skin when ENTJs try for control, and luckily being an INTP and sharing that NT mentality, I tend to agree with most of my ENTJ's opinions.

I normally don't have conflicts with INFJs, but when it happens, it's emotionally brutal for me. If anything, an INFJ willing to argue is one who has the conviction of being right and that you are wrong, so debate isn't possible. Haha, I'm getting a headache thinking about it.

What you said about being "emotionally abusive" with your mother reminded me of my relationship with my own INFJ father----he was also easily offended by things I said or did. I'm still sort of clueless as to what he thinks a good daughter should act like.

Maybe I'll have the option in the future of debating an INFJ around my age so I can give a more informed opinion on this.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Too much anecdotal evidence saying more about the persons in question and less about the types :O

For the record INFJ+INTP is most likely a better combo. They keep a pretty similar pace throughout life, you don't get the alternating tug of war where one part wants to go places while the other wants to ruminate.

 

[Ink]

ENFJ+INTP is the best combination in terms of romantic type chemistry. Type isn't everything of course though.

 

[kaelum]

Too much anecdotal evidence saying more about the persons in question and less about the types :O

For the record INFJ+INTP is most likely a better combo. They keep a pretty similar pace throughout life, you don't get the alternating tug of war where one part wants to go places while the other wants to ruminate.

As far as I'm aware, anecdotal evidence has more validity than untested theory. If there are studies done about INTP, ENTJ and INFJ relationships, I'd be glad to read them. (I just doubt that the appropriate studies with ample sample sizes exist because all three types are rather rare and are probably rarer to see in marriage with one another.) Short of that, my dating resume is short and only includes an ENTJ and an ISTJ.

Do you have any experiences with INTPs that you wouldn't mind sharing?

 

[Starswirl]

I've read a couple anecdotal accounts of INTPs who are almost obsessed with ENFJs. I think I have a similar interest in ENTJs. I don't know very many of them and I have never known a female ENTJ, but when I do know one I end up developing a deep, one-sided loyalty to the person. And I very rarely feel loyalty. Now, of course, that loyalty is almost entirely psychological; as an INTP, I don't actually do anything as an ENTJ-follower, I just feel a bond. I can count 4-5 times that this has happened.

All of those relationships, though, were platonic. I have no experience (first or second hand) with INTPxENTJ, but I consider it a very interesting match.

And I agree that anecdotal evidence is the real value of MBTI.

So here's an inquiry: I find that I have no animosity toward arrogance. I dislike it when people refuse to consider other ideas, but I really don't care about "I'm better" arrogance while other people consider it a sin in itself. Hell, I kind of like narcissism if it's funny every once in a while. Is this an INTP thing or just me?

 

[Brontosaurie]

So here's an inquiry: I find that I have no animosity toward arrogance. I dislike it when people refuse to consider other ideas, but I really don't care about "I'm better" arrogance while other people consider it a sin in itself. Hell, I kind of like narcissism if it's funny every once in a while. Is this an INTP thing or just me?

i kinda like cancer, am i speshul?

 

[rushgirl2112]

I don't have any experience with any ENTJs (that I know of), so I can't address that part.

However, I'm an INTP female married to an INFJ male. And I have to say . . . WOW. I don't believe in soul mates, but if I did, he would be it.

I've never bought into the idea that "I" needs an "E" in a romantic relationship. Not to say it can't work, but I don't get the necessity of it. And for me, it would be disastrous. As an "I," I would not be happy with an "E" and all the accompanying people coming around the house or calling, or the pressure to go out. *cringes* Every "E" I've ever known has had a serious problem understanding why their way isn't the way everyone is supposed to be.

I enjoy having my husband as my best friend and pretty much the only person I spend any time with. This only works if he feels the same way, which he does. We also understand each other better because we share that introverted trait.

Anyway, on the upside of our relationship . . .

1. Amazing conversation! Mutual intellectual stimulation. Intense and extremely interesting spiritual discussions between open-minded people.

2. Great balance between logic and emotion. I ground him, and he lifts me up. I figure things out, and he supports me emotionally. It's like having built-in therapy for both of us.

3. Understanding of each other's challenges in life that are related to being "IN"s.

4. Specific to female INTP/male INFJ relationships, we are very familiar with each other's problems with role reversal and having traits that other people consider to be inappropriate to our gender.

5. Incredible sex. Okay, some of this is physical chemistry, but we both view sex as a very serious thing. Neither of us could ever have casual sex (not that we have any moral problem with it - it just doesn't do it for us). We have to be connected on an intuitive level for it to work. And we're so connected that it gets into spiritually-mind-blowing territory. This is especially important for me.

And on the downside . . .

1. In conversation, we have to be careful to communicate in ways the other can understand. Mostly that's me needing to remember to be more gentle with him.

2. Sometimes if I'm under enough stress, I find too much decision-making to be a burden, and it's difficult for him to step up.

3. We have to be careful not to miss out on the world around us. We've become hermits, although we're pretty happy with that, so I'm not sure if it's really a downside. But we share an inability to notice real-world details that could be important. And we feed into each other's dim views of other people.

4. Everyone else thinks we're really needy. We agree that we're needy, but we're very happy being this closely connected, so we don't see a problem. However, it does make us feel bad to think that other people are looking down on us.

For me, the downsides aren't any more significant than what you'd find in any average couple, but the upsides are so good - and so difficult for either of us to find in other people - that I don't personally know any other couple that I'd consider to be as compatible as we are. Any significant weakness in one is a strength in the other. And we're both very inclined to want to improve ourselves, and our relationship together gives us a lot of great tools to do just that.

 

[Duxwing]

@rushgirl Thanks for your input!

1) Could you explain what "spiritual discussions" are?
2) You keep using the word "spiritual," and I suspect that you are not a dualist; are you referring to euphoria?
3) How are you "gentle" with him?
4) Although I have enjoyed being with my girlfriends and felt an urge to focus on them, I would loathe being a hermit.

-Duxwing

 

[The Introvert]

ENTJs suck.

 

[rushgirl2112]

@rushgirl Thanks for your input!

1) Could you explain what "spiritual discussions" are?
2) You keep using the word "spiritual," and I suspect that you are not a dualist; are you referring to euphoria?

To me, spirituality is the "everything else" that is left after you remove the physical, emotional, and mental. I'm agnostic, so maybe that gives some indication of where I'm coming from . . . spirituality would be all the things that are many people's basis for religion but without the religion itself.

When I talk about a spiritual connection, I mean something that's inexplicable, something that seems bigger than ourselves. Not a deity - because I neither believe nor disbelieve in any - but something that transcends the physical existence.

For example, there is this strange psychic quality to our relationship. As a skeptic, I don't believe in such things, but I've been hard-pressed to explain it scientifically. We can both be hanging around together, and all of a sudden he'll mention something totally unrelated to anything we'd been talking about beforehand, and I'll gasp because I was just opening my mouth to say the same thing. This is not a rare occurrence but a fairly regular one. Smaller coincidences every day or so, and a big one maybe weekly? I've never had anything like this with anyone else, and it still freaks me out sometimes.

3) How are you "gentle" with him?

Mainly by toning down my "debate mode" a bit. He makes no distinction between debating and fighting, so I have to be careful to keep things more on conversation level. Like by acknowledging what he's saying without always feeling the need to challenge it or poke holes in his logic.

That and speaking to him more warmly rather than approaching everything with a coldly analytical mindset. He does appreciate some analysis and objectivity, but sometimes he just needs reassurance.

I've had varying degrees of success with that. It's definitely still a challenge!

 

[Duxwing]

To me, spirituality is the "everything else" that is left after you remove the physical, emotional, and mental. I'm agnostic, so maybe that gives some indication of where I'm coming from . . . spirituality would be all the things that are many people's basis for religion but without the religion itself.

If you are an agnostic monist, then you deny the supernatural. Beware being sucked into his Ni-Fe world.

When I talk about a spiritual connection, I mean something that's inexplicable, something that seems bigger than ourselves. Not a deity - because I neither believe nor disbelieve in any - but something that transcends the physical existence.

For example, there is this strange psychic quality to our relationship. As a skeptic, I don't believe in such things, but I've been hard-pressed to explain it scientifically. We can both be hanging around together, and all of a sudden he'll mention something totally unrelated to anything we'd been talking about beforehand, and I'll gasp because I was just opening my mouth to say the same thing. This is not a rare occurrence but a fairly regular one. Smaller coincidences every day or so, and a big one maybe weekly? I've never had anything like this with anyone else, and it still freaks me out sometimes.

Why can a physical brain not predict another? Perhaps sufficient closeness causes him to think as you do: we already know that close lovers can share a resting heart rate when together.

Mainly by toning down my "debate mode" a bit. He makes no distinction between debating and fighting, so I have to be careful to keep things more on conversation level. Like by acknowledging what he's saying without always feeling the need to challenge it or poke holes in his logic.

That and speaking to him more warmly rather than approaching everything with a coldly analytical mindset. He does appreciate some analysis and objectivity, but sometimes he just needs reassurance.

I've had varying degrees of success with that. It's definitely still a challenge!

No debate? But... but... debate is so awesome, and my past INFJ liked it. Perhaps you or a therapist can help him distinguish debating from fighting; even without debate, learning to accept objective criticism of one's ideas is a valuable life skill. I, for example, imagine my physical body slumping and a projection of my mind ascending into a world of pure logic when I debate.

-Duxwing

 

[redbaron]

No debate? But... but... debate is so awesome, and my past INFJ liked it. Perhaps you or a therapist can help him distinguish debating from fighting;

For there to be a debate, there needs to be two opposing points. What's really great in a relationship is being able to not turn things into a debate, and to instead have an open discussion where both ideas can both be understood, accepted and built upon mutually by both people.

Which can be done through debate, however it takes a lot longer to reach that point when both parties are actively trying to, 'win' the discussion.

Therapy again?

*twitch*

 

[Duxwing]

For there to be a debate, there needs to be two opposing points. What's really great in a relationship is being able to not turn things into a debate, and to instead have an open discussion where both ideas can both be understood, accepted and built upon mutually by both people.

Which can be done through debate, however it takes a lot longer to reach that point when both parties are actively trying to, 'win' the discussion.

That's not debate inasmuch as... well... arguing. Debate isn't about breaking the opposing argument, building yours, or even changing minds; it's the rational resolution of disputes, which inevitably arise in families, friendships, and romances. For example: if I want a green birdhouse, and you want a red birdhouse, then we can debate to see which one is better, and if our reasoning shows that a third option--a blue birdhouse--is best, then we'll build that one.

Therapy again?

*twitch*

You should see a therapist about that twitch... I kid, I kid. Distinguishing disagreements from dislike is important because it allows us to adapt our minds without breaking our hearts, but this thread isn't the place for deciding that question.

-Duxwing

 

[redbaron]

Oh how I love semantics.

 

[Duxwing]

Oh how I love semantics.

Hahaha!

-Duxwing

 

[Cherry Cola]

That's not debate inasmuch as... well... arguing. Debate isn't about breaking the opposing argument, building yours, or even changing minds; it's the rational resolution of disputes, which inevitably arise in families, friendships, and romances. For example: if I want a green birdhouse, and you want a red birdhouse, then we can debate to see which one is better, and if our reasoning shows that a third option--a blue birdhouse--is best, then we'll build that one.
-Duxwing

That example doesn't portray the reality of a relationship. You can't always expect to agree on what's the most rational choice, you still need to deal with shit though. Hencewhy a discourse form which presupposes that the two parties can and will agree on a solution isn't going to work with all issues.

Kaelum: Disagree, firstly people aren't accurate enough in their typings. Secondly, there's more to people than their respective types. Using anecdotal evidence there is both a big chance of the types of the people in question not being what the poster claims, and secondly there's a big chance that what happened between them was due to their personalities as wholes rather than just their types, and/or other circumstantial factors which are irrelevant for the question of which types fit together.

It adds ambiguity and moves the question into the realm of general psychology rather than MBTI.

 

[Duxwing]

That example doesn't portray the reality of a relationship. You can't always expect to agree on what's the most rational choice, you still need to deal with shit though. Hencewhy a discourse form which presupposes that the two parties can and will agree on a solution isn't going to work with all issues.

Where possible, break out your empathy etc. in order to ensure that both parties are rational. When no rational solution can be reached, consider whether surrendering in the given instance is worthwhile, whether so doing establishes a precedent that might reduce later dedication to reason, and whether such instances will be too common in the future.

-Duxwing

 

[Cherry Cola]

Lol your end-goal is still a rational conclusion mutually held. Can't two people just live with their fundamental differences by virtue of other things? :P

 

[redbaron]

The rational resolution of disputes is not debate. Debate by definition relates to contention. You can't have a debate without contention. If there's not contention, it's not a debate.

I think it's more that the simplistic view you have of relationships just grates on me. I mean, analogizing relationship disputes to discussions over which colour birdhouse you're going to purchase?

The nature of (most) relationships is far more complicated than this, and the issues that arise are generally of a more serious nature than...mundane purchases.

My point (which I thought was clearly illustrated, though obviously not) was that there's no need in a relationship for there to be contest over anything really. Which apparently you agree with, which brings me to the point that if you aren't referring to situations of contention, don't use a word that is implicitly defined by it.

Where possible, break out your empathy etc. in order to ensure that both parties are rational. When no rational solution can be reached, consider whether surrendering in the given instance is worthwhile, whether so doing establishes a precedent that might reduce later dedication to reason, whether such instances will be too common in the future.

If this forum was 2001: A Space Odyssey, you'd be HAL.

Although I think you'll take that as a compliment.

 

[Duxwing]

The rational resolution of disputes is not debate. Debate by definition relates to contention. You can't have a debate without contention. If there's not contention, it's not a debate.

You never have any contention with your partner?

I think it's more that the simplistic view you have of relationships just grates on me. I mean, analogizing relationship disputes to discussions over which colour birdhouse you're going to purchase?

The nature of (most) relationships is far more complicated than this, and the issues that arise are generally of a more serious nature than...mundane purchases.

I so knew and know. My analogy to bird house colors uses the black box method, which controls detail by simplifying arbitrarily complex processes to respective inputs and outputs: the bird house color thus is a placeholder for house location, number of kids, frequency of affirmations, or any mutually-exclusive option. I could also render the logic for non-mutually-exclusive options, but I assume that you can intuit the point that I was trying to illustrate.

My point (which I thought was clearly illustrated, though obviously not) was that there's no need in a relationship for there to be contest over anything really. Which apparently you agree with, which brings me to the point that if you aren't referring to situations of contention, don't use a word that is implicitly defined by it.

No need for contention? Surely you're not suggesting that conflict must never occur?

If this forum was 2001: A Space Odyssey, you'd be HAL.

Although I think you'll take that as a compliment.

HAL is insane and lacks empathy. I'm twice insulted. Why are my concerns not reasonable?

-Duxwing

 

[sammael]

Purely anecdotal, and not of the romantic or intimate kind, however still somewhat relevant, I think.

I was recently involved in a project of which the project manager/leader was an ENTJ. There were good things and bad things, I don't think either necessarily outweighed the other. However I did eventually leave the project because the ENTJ and myself disagreed too much on how things should be done and spent too much time arguing, which we both agreed was unproductive and a major hindrance to progress and the deadlines that needed to be met. We talked this out objectively and rationally and left on good terms, with no hard feelings. Her capacity to communicate with me like that was a huge advantage, which was one of the big positives to the interaction.

The pros
- Objectivity, I loved this. She was straightforward, honest, direct, sometimes blunt with me, and I could be this way with her too. It made communication so much more effective and efficient. She never got angry, emotional, or personal, there was no handbag tossing or other silly nonsense. Our arguments were always calm and composed. It also was great for my personal learning and growth as she often provided constructive criticism in this honest, objective way, which was very useful.
- Very good organisational and management skills. Left me free to focus on what I do best - brainstorming, possibilities, creative problem solving etc.
- Would at least listen to and discuss issues raised by team members.
- Valued independence and autonomy. Nuff said.

The cons
- Always right, as has been previously mentioned. Major major deal breaker.
-She didn't really appear to value or seek the opinions or preferences of team members, and seemed to frown upon me for constantly doing this.
- Too results focused. Neglecting the process in favour of pure results is a recipe for disaster. I tried to explain the effect this can have on morale and productivity etc, but to little avail.
- A little too serious. This is more just a matter of differences than anything else - I tend to be spontaneous, playful cheeky, ENTJ - nope, although this girl could let her hair down when the time came for that, and did have somewhat of a sense of humour.

I could probably come up with more of both, but that's all I can think of quickly off the top of my head.

More recently I have been involved in a project with a project manager I believe to be an INFJ (I am also in a kind-of leadership role). This really works much much better, I'm beginning to think this is actually a really good arrangement. Our strengths and weaknesses are complimenting, it really seems to balance out well. There is a mutual trust and respect, she confers in me for every decision, I always back her up. So far it's been working exceptionally well.

My interaction with the ENTJ I feel was more of an arms length thing, we were just mostly on different pages. With the INFJ I feel more like we're co-conspirators, our differences are just less abrasive and difficult to deal with.

 

[marybluesky]

I don't have any experience with any ENTJs (that I know of), so I can't address that part... Any significant weakness in one is a strength in the other. And we're both very inclined to want to improve ourselves, and our relationship together gives us a lot of great tools to do just that.

Lucky you who experience such a love story. I enjoyed reading it.
I find INFJs very intriguing & always thought they have suitable traits as a love partner for someone like me. I should go find one.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

ENTJ if she has same interests as me.

 

[Alias]

INFJ, because I go by Keirsey's standards. ENFJ+INTP should be brought up.

 

[WALKYRIA]

lol, i like how you guys act like you cared about her personality...

 

[QuietFire]

ENTJs just make me cry in relationships. Why can't I find an ENFJ or INFJ?