ENFJ/INTP - Long-distance crapshoot

[ladyhaha]

First post here, although I've been following the forum for awhile. INTP's are a fascinating bunch! I apologize in advance if this is a little long-winded. I just really need some help.

Over the summer I moved to the same state as a college friend of mine. While he lives 3 hours away, we have been able to get together a few times. Over the past month, we've discovered that we've had feelings for one another for years.

Him: 28-year-old INTP med student
Me: 24-year-old ENFJ. Full-time corporate slave. Part-time grad student.

Hopeful Bits:
1) We had a good chat last time he was in town. He was very open with me and assured me that he has genuine feelings for me. He was quite expressive so I could tell he’s thought a lot about it. I was proud of him.

Something sweet he said: “When I see something funny or interesting, you’re the first person I want to share it with. I feel so at home with you. There’s no one else that I share these same types of conversations with.”

2) We’ve always shared a fantastic friendship. I feel that we really care about and admire one another. I think if we were to ever get together for real, I'm almost certain we would be happy and it would last.

3) He’s one of the best people I know and I’ve never been so intrigued by a guy. I can be patient for him. He's deserves someone that can be patient and understanding.

4) He’s stated that the last thing he wants is to “just be friends”



The complicated:

1) He says this is the closest he's ever come to something "real." While endearing, he’s admitted that he doesn’t know much about navigating a loving relationship. I’m not sure I have much more experience.

2) He’s yet to kiss me or show any physical affection at all. I remember him trying to hold my hand once in college, but it was so out of character that I kind of shook it off and shyed away. NOW: I make a point to subtly break the physical barrier and he grins and seems to like it, but he’s not making any kind of move on his own so I feel uncomfortable in kicking it up a notch. How do I know when to just plant one on him? I don't want it to be premature and scare him away... Girl needs some lovin

3) He's REALLY hard to talk with on the phone. Face-to-face is cosmic, but last night's phone call is what's triggering this post. I can picture him being awkward and spacey to even his mom on the phone, so I'm not taking it too personally... I just don't know how we can build some momentum with the long distance if the phone situation isn't working.

Are any of you the same way? Does Skype or Facetime work better for you, or would that be more awkward?

4) I think he's resistant to much "plan making." He's said it would be possible to meet up a couple times a month at convenient mid-point for both of us... yet, it's me who always seems to be finding fun events for us or making plans. He initially seems annoyed, but he always agrees to come and we end up having fun. He then thanks me for pulling him out of his little cave for an evening.


I'm just feeling really discouraged in general and a bit emotionally exhausted. I've expressed this discouragement in a fairly logical way and he didn't seem to frightened by it. He was understanding and agreed that he needed to be more proactive, yet there's been no action on his part to followup with that statement.


He's said this exact phrase to me a few times: "I WILL TAKE THE LEAD WHEN I FEEL COMFORTABLE."


I guess my overarching question is, what can I do to make him feel comfortable at a distance while not smothering him or denying my needs?


I'm fairly confident this thing would last if we could ever get our crap together. I'm just at a total loss right now.

 

[scorpiomover]

First post here, although I've been following the forum for awhile. INTP's are a fascinating bunch! I apologize in advance if this is a little long-winded. I just really need some help.

We're a confusing bunch to most people. But we actually function upon very simple-to-understand principles.

Over the summer I moved to the same state as a college friend of mine. While he lives 3 hours away, we have been able to get together a few times. Over the past month, we've discovered that we've had feelings for one another for years.

Him: 28-year-old INTP med student
Me: 24-year-old ENFJ. Full-time corporate slave. Part-time grad student.

Hopeful Bits:

1) We had a good chat last time he was in town. He was very open with me and assured me that he has genuine feelings for me. He was quite expressive so I could tell he’s thought a lot about it. I was proud of him.

My INTP-ness makes me distrust anything anyone says, unless it has a logical proof. I expect that if I want to be treated a way, then the best way is to do that to others. Plus, I am very unsure of everything, and prefer to lay out my reasons, so that others can check if my reasoning is correct. So I tend to give proofs for all my claims. So if I say I like someone, I tend to want to give examples of how I acted, that objectively show that I do indeed care.

However, if I've decided that the person will not use that info to our mutual benefit, then I prefer to stay silent, as my speech will serve no help to anyone.

So the examples indicate to me that he does indeed believe there is mutual benefit to him admitting his feelings, and proving them. That suggests to me, that he wants you to believe him, but only because you can see for yourself that he cares for you. So he wants this to be a relationship of equals.

Something sweet he said: “When I see something funny or interesting, you’re the first person I want to share it with. I feel so at home with you. There’s no one else that I share these same types of conversations with.”

2) We’ve always shared a fantastic friendship. I feel that we really care about and admire one another. I think if we were to ever get together for real, I'm almost certain we would be happy and it would last.

3) He’s one of the best people I know and I’ve never been so intrigued by a guy. I can be patient for him. He's deserves someone that can be patient and understanding.

4) He’s stated that the last thing he wants is to “just be friends”

If I say this to someone, it means that I cannot be "just friends" with her. My feelings are independent of sex and physical contact. Those feelings CAN run deep enough that I would feel that connection to continue ad infinitum. It might end. But not by my choice.

The complicated:

1) He says this is the closest he's ever come to something "real." While endearing, he’s admitted that he doesn’t know much about navigating a loving relationship.

He's telling you this for a reason. He's fallen for someone before, maybe more than once, and it never turned into a relationship. He believes that it's due to a lack of knowledge about dating, and how to get into a relationship. If you want this, then accept that any mistakes or reticence on his part, could be because he simply is unsure what to do. His doubt is because he is an INTP, and expresses unsureness, usually when we are sure. So you lead for a bit, till he gets the idea. Then he will find his feet, and can really make things fly.

I’m not sure I have much more experience.

Irrelevant. He probably already assessed this about you. He might not know. But if he doesn't, it's a possibility he likely considered, and took into account anyway. Either way, now that he DOES like you, it won't make any difference.

2) He’s yet to kiss me or show any physical affection at all. I remember him trying to hold my hand once in college, but it was so out of character that I kind of shook it off and shyed away. NOW: I make a point to subtly break the physical barrier and he grins and seems to like it, but he’s not making any kind of move on his own so I feel uncomfortable in kicking it up a notch. How do I know when to just plant one on him? I don't want it to be premature and scare him away... Girl needs some lovin

INTPs tend to be very aware of their personal space. Move forwards an inch or two, then pause deliberately for a second. If he starts to move away or flinch, then move away. It may mean it's not the right situation for him. Some prefer PDA, and some don't. However, some will flinch and then move back into place. So give him a second to decide. Then move another inch, and give him another second to decide again. By the time your lips lock, he's decided to continue.

It might take several lip-locking sessions, until he feels comfortable that it is safe for him to initiate physical contact, without fear of rejection. The fear of rejection may be imaginary, or it may be that he simply doesn't want to put you in the embarrassing situation of having to knock him back. But given enough times, he will get the idea.

I don't know about all INTPs. But I do know 2 things about myself:

1) I'll take instruction on physical intimacy, if it is laid out in detail like a program. That's actually how I learned to kiss. Someone explained the process, step-by-step. Then I was at a party, and the info kicked in. I still don't initiate much. But I will take instruction.

2) When I have kissed with a woman, it's been for at least 2 hours every time. So expect that you might be in for an unusually pleasant experience.

3) He's REALLY hard to talk with on the phone. Face-to-face is cosmic, but last night's phone call is what's triggering this post. I can picture him being awkward and spacey to even his mom on the phone, so I'm not taking it too personally...

I'm the same. My phone calls are often 5 minutes at most with many people. Face-to-face, I seem to talk forever.

I just don't know how we can build some momentum with the long distance if the phone situation isn't working.

Skype and weekends together. As long as he has an exact plan of how to get to you, covering all things that might go wrong, he can follow it perfectly. Fortunately, we now have mobile phones.

Get him to prepare an exact plan of how he can get to you. It's a puzzle for him, and NT. So it will keep him talking. MAKE him tell you his plans in detail. Then scan over them for mistakes. Then approve them. He'll then follow them exactly.

Prepare a plan of the weekend. Tell him your plans for the weekend. If he has a suggestion, listen and take it into account. Then explain what the plan is, and why.

Ensure plenty of mutual physical contact. INTPs love it. It tells them that you want him.

Then enjoy.

Are any of you the same way? Does Skype or Facetime work better for you, or would that be more awkward?

4) I think he's resistant to much "plan making." He's said it would be possible to meet up a couple times a month at convenient mid-point for both of us...

He's game, to suggest 2 times a month, AND in a mid-point. I think he just might not want to rush into things quickly. For all I know, that might be really quick for him, especially for a long-distance relationship. Keep it to 2 times a month. If it's regular, then don't be surprised if one month, you want it to be only once that month, and hear his disappointment. We INTPs can like pleasurable routines. It gives us something to look forwards to.

yet, it's me who always seems to be finding fun events for us or making plans.

That's normal. He is not normally focussed on making plans for socialising. Plus, he always thinks of what might go wrong, to prepare for problems before they occur, so they won't ruin things. It's also because he's not used to a relationship. Once he learns how to plan, and what will be a good one, you'll find him full of suggestions.

He initially seems annoyed, but he always agrees to come and we end up having fun. He then thanks me for pulling him out of his little cave for an evening.

The annoyance indicates that he had made other plans, or that it's something that he's unsure of. The agreement indicates that he wants to prioritise seeing you over his previous plans. If you make suggestions a bit earlier in advance, and get him to use some kind of a diary, then he will know in advance, and not double-book. He also needs time to mentally get used to prospects of new experiences. So letting him know a little in advance helps a lot here.

I'm just feeling really discouraged in general and a bit emotionally exhausted. I've expressed this discouragement in a fairly logical way and he didn't seem to frightened by it. He was understanding and agreed that he needed to be more proactive, yet there's been no action on his part to followup with that statement.

Most people feel discouraged by the lack of encouragement of INTPs. That was why he told you that his relationships have not yet come to something real. People got interested, he got his hopes up, he didn't act fast enough, they got discouraged and went out with someone else. He was devastated. If not that this was the the closest he's ever come to something "real", he never would have risked his feelings on you. So if he's true to form as an INTP, you've got him already. All you have to do is go get him, and don't be frightened by the fact that he's not moving towards you. He waits for you.

He's said this exact phrase to me a few times: "I WILL TAKE THE LEAD WHEN I FEEL COMFORTABLE."

Then he meant it.

He's telling you that you won't always have to do the running. When he gets used to being in a relationship with you, which could take up to a year, he'll give payback and take the lead for more and more, until he feels that it's back to equal again, and then he'll take the lead 50/50.

I guess my overarching question is, what can I do to make him feel comfortable at a distance while not smothering him or denying my needs?

Tell him, logically, rationally, unemotionally, what you want, and what he can do. He may not feel he can all that right now. But he can process, so long as he's not being allowed to answer rationally.

I'm fairly confident this thing would last if we could ever get our crap together. I'm just at a total loss right now.

Chill. He told you what's going on. Just remember, he's an INTP. Logic is his guide for action. As long you ensure that he understands what is going on, and why, and it makes sense, that is what he'll do.

 

[ladyhaha]

So you lead for a bit, till he gets the idea. Then he will find his feet, and can really make things fly.

I've needed someone to tell me this. Yes!

Scorpiomover -
Thank you for taking the time to write to me. Every line you wrote is helpful and I feel truth in your statements. I've had a rough time trying to find someone to talk about this with because I knew no one would quite "get it" in the same way as an INTP. You've had the same calming affect on me that he seems to have (when he's actually communicating with me of course ).

Chill, relax, breathe. I feel like I know the tweaks I need to make to my approach, but any other comments are welcome.

Thanks again!

 

[Dapper Dan]

I guess I'll add my thoughts. Anything I don't mention I agree with completely.

He's telling you this for a reason. He's fallen for someone before, maybe more than once, and it never turned into a relationship. He believes that it's due to a lack of knowledge about dating, and how to get into a relationship. If you want this, then accept that any mistakes or reticence on his part, could be because he simply is unsure what to do. His doubt is because he is an INTP, and expresses unsureness, usually when we are sure. So you lead for a bit, till he gets the idea. Then he will find his feet, and can really make things fly.

It's also entirely possible that he's never even fallen for anyone. At any rate, you can use this as an excuse to ignore some of the usual social rules. He certainly won't care. I'd give examples, but I don't know what they are, either.

Get him to prepare an exact plan of how he can get to you. It's a puzzle for him, and NT. So it will keep him talking. MAKE him tell you his plans in detail. Then scan over them for mistakes. Then approve them. He'll then follow them exactly.

This sounds horrifying. I realize it may be necessary, but don't be surprised if he resists this tactic.

Prepare a plan of the weekend. Tell him your plans for the weekend. If he has a suggestion, listen and take it into account. Then explain what the plan is, and why.

Again, be careful here. Planning the weekend away with no free time stresses me out.

Are any of you the same way? Does Skype or Facetime work better for you, or would that be more awkward?

Skype would definitely be preferable to long phone conversations. Also, any text-based medium would probably work pretty well if you're ok with that.

The annoyance indicates that he had made other plans, or that it's something that he's unsure of. The agreement indicates that he wants to prioritise seeing you over his previous plans. If you make suggestions a bit earlier in advance, and get him to use some kind of a diary, then he will know in advance, and not double-book. He also needs time to mentally get used to prospects of new experiences. So letting him know a little in advance helps a lot here.

I think it's more likely that he was just looking forward to his free time. Giving him some advanced notice (and maybe some reminders) should solve this problem. I think the diary is futile, though.

Really, randomly pulling him out of his cave isn't that big of a deal. Especially if he's enjoying himself afterwards.

 

[scorpiomover]

I guess I'll add my thoughts. Anything I don't mention I agree with completely.

It's also entirely possible that he's never even fallen for anyone. At any rate, you can use this as an excuse to ignore some of the usual social rules. He certainly won't care. I'd give examples, but I don't know what they are, either.

I agree. But I think if he doesn't, and she's behaving rationally, then he'll tell her. So I think she's covered either way. At least, I think so.

This sounds horrifying. I realize it may be necessary, but don't be surprised if he resists this tactic.

It did to me, the first time. But once I was given a few days to confirm, then I was abler to think about it in my introverted time, and could see that it made sense. I agreed tentatively, and that was questioned in order to confirm, but accepted. This has happened to me several times since then, and it seems to satisfy my panics about social situations.

Again, be careful here. Planning the weekend away with no free time stresses me out.

I agree. Allow time for chilling out, exploring, whatever.

Skype would definitely be preferable to long phone conversations. Also, any text-based medium would probably work pretty well if you're ok with that.

Again, I agree.

I think it's more likely that he was just looking forward to his free time. Giving him some advanced notice (and maybe some reminders) should solve this problem. I think the diary is futile, though.

Again, I agree. It might be as I put it, or it might be as you put it. Either way, advance warning is useful. I also found lots of reminders from others useful. I also agree about the diary. I go so many reminders from people, and was interacting so much with others, that I actually found using a diary developed almost organically. I was expecting him to do consciously what evolved in me subconsciously.

Perhaps it was a trifle dictatorial to suggest issuing him with a diary.

The idea of reminders sounds much better. I get people to confirm with me the day/night before. That way, if I forget, they will ring to confirm. It also means that if my plans changed, and I forgot about them, I can cancel, without cancelling at the last minute.

 

[ladyhaha]

I think it's more likely that he was just looking forward to his free time. Giving him some advanced notice (and maybe some reminders) should solve this problem. I think the diary is futile, though.

Yes. Free time is vital for this one. I think part of the reason our phone call was a little weird the other night was because I interrupted him while he was having a Netflix marathon. I was bouncy and energetic, excited to tell him about something. I could tell he was trying to shift into people mode, but it was still a struggle for us to match energy level. I feel like a lot of men are that way though, so maybe that's not so INTP-specific.

If we do decide Skyping is better than the phone, would you suggest that we set a time a couple times a week to talk, or is that sort of routine too restricting? I get the vibe that he does a lot better when he's expecting conversation, but I really don't want him to feel like I'm trying to put him on a schedule. He wouldn't like that.

He mentions sometimes how much he hates being nagged by his mom, academic counselors, etc. He does need quite a bit of reminding for the day-to-day stuff, though. He has started using the calendar on his iPhone and I think that helps.

This sounds horrifying. I realize it may be necessary, but don't be surprised if he resists this tactic.

Either way, advance warning is useful. I also found lots of reminders from others useful. I also agree about the diary.

I've been thinking about this advice and still can't quite decide on an approach.

How do you guys feel about this course of action?

1) I'll come up with something for us to do once a month. If he wants to plan the other thing, great - it gives him a chance to "take the lead" or whatever. If not, then I still get to see him that month and I'm not stepping into the role of his social planner.
2) I'll send him the basic details as soon as I have them for the concert, game, or whatever we're doing. I'll tell him I'll touch base a couple days before it happens so we can talk specifics and he doesn't have to worry about remembering everything. I'll let him know I'm looking forward to hanging out, but communicate that I'm understanding of his schedule if anything changes (because med school really is insane).
3) Talk specifics, but leave a lot of room for flexibility and down time.


I've also been wondering about group activities. Example: There's a football game in a couple weeks at our mid-point. He agreed that he'd like to meet up with me and some of my friends, but I'm wondering if he'll even have fun (if he doesn't bail first). He'd cancel on things all the time at school when I'd plan something with a group of friends... I'm not sure if it's because the plan-making is too chaotic, I'm too much of a social butterfly and he doesn't feel special, he didn't feel included with my friends or didn't like them, or maybe he likes being able to slip out undetected and do his own thing. How do you feel about doing stuff with your significant other's friends? Would being in a group take some of the pressure off or would you maybe wonder why you were even there? For me, it makes sense to bring friends along because it takes pressure off with the hotel situation and gives me company in the car, but it doesn't allow for much time with just me and him. I won't be asking for a wingman when we're in an actual relationship, but for now it makes sense. Especially since this trip will be the whole weekend.

 

[Vrecknidj]

These are off-the-cuff, and I haven't read anyone else's responses yet.

Something sweet he said: “When I see something funny or interesting, you’re the first person I want to share it with. I feel so at home with you. There’s no one else that I share these same types of conversations with.”

Okay, this is a big deal. Really. Hang on to things like this.

3) He’s one of the best people I know and I’ve never been so intrigued by a guy. I can be patient for him. He's deserves someone that can be patient and understanding.

It's going to be important, long term, for you to be able to separate your needs from his. (I'm not suggesting you don't already know this, but, your comment about what he deserves poked me to point this out for you.)

1) He says this is the closest he's ever come to something "real." While endearing, he’s admitted that he doesn’t know much about navigating a loving relationship. I’m not sure I have much more experience.

You have more experience relating to others though, and that's a big deal too. A lot of INTPs want to relate to others, but, it's really hard for them because it costs so much. The investment for an INTP is HUGE.

2) He’s yet to kiss me or show any physical affection at all. ... How do I know when to just plant one on him? I don't want it to be premature and scare him away...

If my wife hadn't made the first move, there wouldn't have been a first move. INTPs, as a rule, don't want to impose on another's space, freedom, time, sense of privacy, etc., etc. Once he knows he's "in," it will be another story. But, remember, INTPs are logical -- when the operating premise becomes "physical touch is wanted" you might have to set boundaries about when touch (of whatever kind) is and is not wanted.

3) He's REALLY hard to talk with on the phone. Face-to-face is cosmic, but last night's phone call is what's triggering this post. I can picture him being awkward and spacey to even his mom on the phone, so I'm not taking it too personally... I just don't know how we can build some momentum with the long distance if the phone situation isn't working.

Are any of you the same way? Does Skype or Facetime work better for you, or would that be more awkward?

I am exactly the same way. I don't relate well by phone. I can have plain old conversations just fine, but, there's so much missing from a voice-only conversation for me. Skype might work. Try it a few times and see.

4) I think he's resistant to much "plan making." He's said it would be possible to meet up a couple times a month at convenient mid-point for both of us... yet, it's me who always seems to be finding fun events for us or making plans. He initially seems annoyed, but he always agrees to come and we end up having fun. He then thanks me for pulling him out of his little cave for an evening.

It's really, really, really hard to figure out what someone else wants to do, will accept, will not be freaked out about, etc. It's 1000 times harder for an INTP to figure this out about others. What most people can just roll with, an INTP has to adapt to. The INTP is good at adapting, but, that doesn't mean that's all he wants to do. He has a comfort zone. He will leave it for you. He really will. But it will tire him and he won't want to do it too often. You might have to get used to what feels like boredom and stillness once in a while. There is often nothing I like more than a whole day with no plans when I do not leave the house. This is restorative for me. I NEED it. He might be that way too. Remember, for an INTP, being in society, being at work, being with others is draining. Without a chance to recharge, the INTP wears down and withdraws.

I'm just feeling really discouraged in general and a bit emotionally exhausted. I've expressed this discouragement in a fairly logical way and he didn't seem to frightened by it. He was understanding and agreed that he needed to be more proactive, yet there's been no action on his part to followup with that statement.

Just because there's no observed action doesn't mean he's not working on it. INTPs do a lot of their work in their heads. Don't feel like you can't ask, once in a while, "How are you doing with such-and-such? Have you figured anything out about it yet?" Don't be surprised if there's no progress; don't be surprised if he hasn't thought about it -- he might have other things that he has to think about first. All this stuff that others take for granted and can move through so quickly can often take a while for an INTP.

I guess my overarching question is, what can I do to make him feel comfortable at a distance while not smothering him or denying my needs? Be still. How's that for frustrating? But, I'm serious.

I'm fairly confident this thing would last if we could ever get our crap together. I'm just at a total loss right now.

If you want it to last, it will last. Keep working at it. Anything worth having is worth working for.

Dave

 

[Dapper Dan]

If we do decide Skyping is better than the phone, would you suggest that we set a time a couple times a week to talk, or is that sort of routine too restricting?

Heck no. Routines are the best.

He mentions sometimes how much he hates being nagged by his mom, academic counselors, etc. He does need quite a bit of reminding for the day-to-day stuff, though. He has started using the calendar on his iPhone and I think that helps.

Nagging an INTP means that you're telling him to do something that he is either opposed to or undecided about. Reminding him means that he has already agreed, and you're just making sure he doesn't forget. Reminders are appreciated. Nagging isn't. If you seem to get a negative reaction, ask him what he's thinking.

This is actually really important. We like to decide for ourselves. Telling us to do something just tips the scale in the other direction. Asking nicely will get much better results. This is possibly the most irrational thing about INTPs, but it's something you should be aware of.

I've been thinking about this advice and still can't quite decide on an approach.

How do you guys feel about this course of action?

1) I'll come up with something for us to do once a month. If he wants to plan the other thing, great - it gives him a chance to "take the lead" or whatever. If not, then I still get to see him that month and I'm not stepping into the role of his social planner.
2) I'll send him the basic details as soon as I have them for the concert, game, or whatever we're doing. I'll tell him I'll touch base a couple days before it happens so we can talk specifics and he doesn't have to worry about remembering everything. I'll let him know I'm looking forward to hanging out, but communicate that I'm understanding of his schedule if anything changes (because med school really is insane).
3) Talk specifics, but leave a lot of room for flexibility and down time.

I think that will work. I can't think of a better way.

I've also been wondering about group activities. Example: There's a football game in a couple weeks at our mid-point. He agreed that he'd like to meet up with me and some of my friends, but I'm wondering if he'll even have fun (if he doesn't bail first). He'd cancel on things all the time at school when I'd plan something with a group of friends... I'm not sure if it's because the plan-making is too chaotic, I'm too much of a social butterfly and he doesn't feel special, he didn't feel included with my friends or didn't like them, or maybe he likes being able to slip out undetected and do his own thing. How do you feel about doing stuff with your significant other's friends? Would being in a group take some of the pressure off or would you maybe wonder why you were even there? For me, it makes sense to bring friends along because it takes pressure off with the hotel situation and gives me company in the car, but it doesn't allow for much time with just me and him. I won't be asking for a wingman when we're in an actual relationship, but for now it makes sense. Especially since this trip will be the whole weekend.

It depends on the group, really. Does he get along with them?

 

[Vrecknidj]

I think part of the reason our phone call was a little weird the other night was because I interrupted him while he was having a Netflix marathon. I was bouncy and energetic, excited to tell him about something. I could tell he was trying to shift into people mode, but it was still a struggle for us to match energy level. I feel like a lot of men are that way though, so maybe that's not so INTP-specific.

My wife will sometimes just start talking to me while I'm reading, or working, or on my laptop doing something. I don't know about other people, but I can't shift out of one thing and into another so easily. I have to remind her to wait. I want to listen to her, I want to attend to her. But, I need for her to wait. So, my recommendation is, start with "Do you have a sec?" and then just wait until he does.

If we do decide Skyping is better than the phone, would you suggest that we set a time a couple times a week to talk, or is that sort of routine too restricting? I get the vibe that he does a lot better when he's expecting conversation, but I really don't want him to feel like I'm trying to put him on a schedule. He wouldn't like that.

While a routine or schedule can be restrictive, having a known "date" can be relieving. If you say, "I want to Skype with you next week, is Saturday night good?" that gives him a chance to reply, to come up with an alternative, etc. If you say "Let's Skype once a week, and do it on Friday at 8pm," he'll probably just have his internal gears fly apart. In effect, you're asking him to re-organize his life, and all potential possible futures, around a weekly chat. It may not feel this way to you, but, remember, he wants to please you but he also needs to permit a certain amount of openness in his future. (Ironically, even if he never takes advantage of that openness in his future, he needs it.)

He mentions sometimes how much he hates being nagged by his mom, academic counselors, etc. He does need quite a bit of reminding for the day-to-day stuff, though. He has started using the calendar on his iPhone and I think that helps.

Yeah. This one will last a while.

How do you guys feel about this course of action?

1) I'll come up with something for us to do once a month. If he wants to plan the other thing, great - it gives him a chance to "take the lead" or whatever. If not, then I still get to see him that month and I'm not stepping into the role of his social planner.
2) I'll send him the basic details as soon as I have them for the concert, game, or whatever we're doing. I'll tell him I'll touch base a couple days before it happens so we can talk specifics and he doesn't have to worry about remembering everything. I'll let him know I'm looking forward to hanging out, but communicate that I'm understanding of his schedule if anything changes (because med school really is insane).
3) Talk specifics, but leave a lot of room for flexibility and down time.

Don't take it personally if he keeps turning down what you offer. INTPs sometimes have a much different sense of time than others do. (I don't mean for that to be cryptic, sorry.)

I've also been wondering about group activities. Example: There's a football game in a couple weeks at our mid-point. He agreed that he'd like to meet up with me and some of my friends, but I'm wondering if he'll even have fun (if he doesn't bail first). He'd cancel on things all the time at school when I'd plan something with a group of friends... I'm not sure if it's because the plan-making is too chaotic, I'm too much of a social butterfly and he doesn't feel special, he didn't feel included with my friends or didn't like them, or maybe he likes being able to slip out undetected and do his own thing.

Okay. This is serious.
1) If he doesn't know the people, then it's not fun for him. It's work. Remember that. You're asking him to work more hours that week. If my wife asks me to go do something with people, it's work for me. Work. I'm not an extrovert -- this means that being around people I don't know is work. (Did I say "work" enough here to get my point across?)
2) Your being a social butterfly doesn't have to hurt him. If you and he end up together, and you're serious, then you can prevent this from becoming an issue. For as introverted as I am, I will go out to places I'm uncomfortable with my wife. And she can be a social butterfly: talking to everyone, dancing with people, doing what some others might interpret as flirting. But, bottom line, she brought me to the event and she leaves with me. By this I don't mean that I'm in charge or that I'm in control. Quite the contrary. What I mean is she wants to be with me. But, she's a social butterfly. She needs to do extroverted stuff. Just like I need stillness and quiet -- she needs dancing and parties and social events. And, she wants me there because she loves me. So, I go. And sometimes I sit in the corner and read, sometimes for HOURS, and I'm happy that way. And nobody gives her crap about it because she wouldn't take it. If you defend who he is, if you accept who he his, if you tell him "Look, I'm choosing you, but I need to do this, and I'd really like you to be there with me, for me, and it's okay if we have to leave a little early, and it's okay if you don't want to do what everyone else does while we're there, that's cool. It's more than cool. Be yourself -- don't try to be social for me if that's not what you want," then it'll work.

For me, it makes sense to bring friends along because it takes pressure off with the hotel situation and gives me company in the car, but it doesn't allow for much time with just me and him.

This won't be that way for him, I think. If the people who are there are MY friends, then it works. If the people who are there are HER friends, and I don't really know them, then, I'm at work again. Remember, for an INTP, other people are work.

I won't be asking for a wingman when we're in an actual relationship, but for now it makes sense. Especially since this trip will be the whole weekend.

All that said, it's a weekend. Not an every-time thing. And, you're early in the relationship. So, he wants to please you. He wants to do what needs to be done to remain connected to you. If having friends along means you are more comfortable, and it means you have more energy, and you have more strength, then, so long as you can use some of that energy to channel into attention on him, it'll probably be fine.

Dave

 

[ladyhaha]

Be still. How's that for frustrating? But, I'm serious.

I'm being 100% serious when I say that's one of the best things you could've told me. Thank you!

So, my recommendation is, start with "Do you have a sec?" and then just wait until he does.

I can see the importance in this. Duly noted.

If you say, "I want to Skype with you next week, is Saturday night good?" that gives him a chance to reply, to come up with an alternative, etc. If you say "Let's Skype once a week, and do it on Friday at 8pm," he'll probably just have his internal gears fly apart.

Again, this just makes sense! Keeping my routine fairly structured but open is a really good thing for me too. I think this could work for both of us. (Dave, you're right. I really need to keep my needs in check. There's a way to make things work for both of us and not be so self-sacrificing. That's a definite weakness of the ENFJ and I think he'd feel bad if he wasn't aware of my expectations or addressing what I need).

Don't take it personally if he keeps turning down what you offer. INTPs sometimes have a much different sense of time than others do. (I don't mean for that to be cryptic, sorry.)

Yeah, I find myself making up a lot of excuses for him, but it's probably not necessary to overthink it. I think I understand what you're getting at. He can shoot me down in a pretty cold way, but he's VERY quick to backtrack and offer an alternative. I like that about him.

If he doesn't know the people, then it's not fun for him. It's work.

I'm not sure if I had considered that before....the "work" part. I'll likely wind up with an introverted soul no matter what, so this is good information in any case. I have a HUGE extended family (we're talking 45+ cousins) that I'd be nervous about introducing anyone to. They're all pretty loud and obnoxious, but witty as hell and very inviting. This guy has a killer sense of humor so I think he could roll with it *if* we ever got there. Moving right along...

"Look, I'm choosing you, but I need to do this, and I'd really like you to be there with me, for me, and it's okay if we have to leave a little early, and it's okay if you don't want to do what everyone else does while we're there, that's cool. It's more than cool. Be yourself -- don't try to be social for me if that's not what you want," then it'll work.

This is such an awesome attitude to have - your wife sounds cool. What's her MBTI? If I don't get an opportunity to verbalize this to him, I'm going to make sure he understands it through my attitude during our football weekend.

Nagging an INTP means that you're telling him to do something that he is either opposed to or undecided about. Reminding him means that he has already agreed, and you're just making sure he doesn't forget. Reminders are appreciated. Nagging isn't. If you seem to get a negative reaction, ask him what he's thinking.

I really like the way you explained this. I don't think I've crossed much into your definition of "nagging" so that's good.

Asking nicely will get much better results. This is possibly the most irrational thing about INTPs, but it's something you should be aware of.

I don't think it's irrational to want to be treated with respect and kindness. I don't like it when I see my friends nagging their guys.

It depends on the group, really. Does he get along with them?

It's all friends I've made since I moved down here. He and I have only hung out 1-on-1 in recent times so he doesn't know any of them. They're all chill people though and he does the whole chameleon thing pretty well. People just like him. I want him to have fun though.

A lot of INTPs want to relate to others, but, it's really hard for them because it costs so much. The investment for an INTP is HUGE.

Hey Dave, can you elaborate a little more on this? Is it investment because it takes so much mental energy to get there? Is the quote below a reference to this?

It's really, really, really hard to figure out what someone else wants to do, will accept, will not be freaked out about, etc. It's 1000 times harder for an INTP to figure this out about others. What most people can just roll with, an INTP has to adapt to. The INTP is good at adapting, but, that doesn't mean that's all he wants to do. He has a comfort zone. He will leave it for you. He really will. But it will tire him and he won't want to do it too often. You might have to get used to what feels like boredom and stillness once in a while. There is often nothing I like more than a whole day with no plans when I do not leave the house. This is restorative for me. I NEED it. He might be that way too. Remember, for an INTP, being in society, being at work, being with others is draining. Without a chance to recharge, the INTP wears down and withdraws.

He's so very different from me in this way. I've had a suspicion this is what's going on, but I haven't been able to articulate it like that. I just want to go give him a big hug and let him know it's ok to take his time. Ahhh, I feel bad now. Well, the good news is that I don't think I've put too much pressure on him (even though I was freaking out a little on the inside).

_____________________

Ok, this is slightly unrelated, but let me ask you about this:

He's told me a few times how "passive" he is. I hate that word. What does that mean? He's extremely passionate about medicine, social justice, religion... he cares and is aware of what's going on, yet when he gets to a dead end on a subject he shrugs his shoulders and says, "What do I know, though? I'm pretty passive." He said this exact thing a few weeks ago when we we're trying to decide if we were on the same page relationship-wise. When he said he was passive it was hard for me to not hear, "I don't care all that much about you, or about working through my feelings." I kind of forgot about it until now... I mean, he's chill but I wouldn't use "passive" to describe him. Is that some sort of buzzword for INTP's?

 

[Dapper Dan]

He's told me a few times how "passive" he is. I hate that word. What does that mean? He's extremely passionate about medicine, social justice, religion... he cares and is aware of what's going on, yet when he gets to a dead end on a subject he shrugs his shoulders and says, "What do I know, though? I'm pretty passive." He said this exact thing a few weeks ago when we we're trying to decide if we were on the same page relationship-wise. When he said he was passive it was hard for me to not hear, "I don't care all that much about you, or about working through my feelings." I kind of forgot about it until now... I mean, he's chill but I wouldn't use "passive" to describe him. Is that some sort of buzzword for INTP's?

I don't know what he means by "passive" exactly, but it sounds like he's just doing the typical INTP self-doubt thing. I wouldn't worry about it too much, but feel free to intervene with some encouragement if it gets out of hand.

 

[Vrecknidj]

This is such an awesome attitude to have - your wife sounds cool. What's her MBTI? If I don't get an opportunity to verbalize this to him, I'm going to make sure he understands it through my attitude during our football weekend.

She's an XNFP. Kinda like how someone who is bipolar can go for long stretches of mania followed by long stretches of depression, my wife can go for months as a serious introvert and then for a few weeks or months as a pretty out-in-the-world extrovert. Most of the time, she's an INFP, some of the time she's an ENFP. She spent much of her late adolescence as an ENFP, and I met her during a big transition into being more solidly INFP. She has taught me a TON about extroversion and how to deal with others. It's been very, very good for me.

"A lot of INTPs want to relate to others, but, it's really hard for them because it costs so much. The investment for an INTP is HUGE."

Hey Dave, can you elaborate a little more on this? Is it investment because it takes so much mental energy to get there? Is the quote below a reference to this?

"It's really, really, really hard to figure out what someone else wants to do, will accept, will not be freaked out about, etc. It's 1000 times harder for an INTP to figure this out about others. What most people can just roll with, an INTP has to adapt to. The INTP is good at adapting, but, that doesn't mean that's all he wants to do. He has a comfort zone. He will leave it for you. He really will. But it will tire him and he won't want to do it too often. You might have to get used to what feels like boredom and stillness once in a while. There is often nothing I like more than a whole day with no plans when I do not leave the house. This is restorative for me. I NEED it. He might be that way too. Remember, for an INTP, being in society, being at work, being with others is draining. Without a chance to recharge, the INTP wears down and withdraws."

He's so very different from me in this way. I've had a suspicion this is what's going on, but I haven't been able to articulate it like that. I just want to go give him a big hug and let him know it's ok to take his time. Ahhh, I feel bad now. Well, the good news is that I don't think I've put too much pressure on him (even though I was freaking out a little on the inside).

Yes, it's an investment in the sense of mental and emotional energy. I don't know about other introverts, but, I know a lot of INTPs and many of them find navigating the everyday social world to be incredibly taxing. And, to make matters worse, they also often find their own emotional experience to be baffling. If you get to know enough INTPs you'll see plenty of variety among them; one of the things you'll notice is that many of them claim to be emotionless or not to have feelings, or whatever. Imagine being that unaware of your own emotions that you can deny them without even recognizing what you're doing. It's actually kinda scary (though, of course, if you mention this to those INTPs they will tell you otherwise, they will probably also write you off or verbally attack you for being foolish). Interestingly, many of them are quick to anger, and many of them get really defensive really quickly. (But I digress.)

Yeah, basically, to an INTP, a relationship is an investment. And it's a big one. But, most INTPs, very deeply, want relationship. They are hard to get to know. But, that doesn't mean they don't want to be known. What it does mean, though, is that they know that most people in their past have written them off. They are so hard to know that most people have given up trying. And, many of them are very clever and have learned just how painful this is, and have learned that it's often easier to function in this painful world by simply severing emotional ties altogether. So, if he's letting you in at all, that's a big deal.

I mean, he's chill but I wouldn't use "passive" to describe him. Is that some sort of buzzword for INTP's?

Hmm. Beats me.

If I were to guess, I'd say that by passive, he means (generally, not in the specific relationship case you mentioned) that he means that he is happy to analyze the world and give opinions to those who ask, but he's not the type to actually DO anything about it. In the other sense, he wasn't saying he wasn't interested in you or your feelings. (Honestly, if he's like most INTPs, it's going to take him a while to come around to understanding what it means to care about someone else's feelings -- in both senses of "care.") Probably Dapper Dan, above, is right.

Dave

 

[Uejji]

Old thread is old.

Hi. This is my first post here.

I'm an INTP engaged to the love of my life, an ENFJ.

When dating such a different personality type, you have to understand yourself and your partner. My fiancee and I had frequent arguments and fights until we took the time to assess our own personality types and learn our own and each other's strengths and weaknesses.

An INTP spends his or her time thinking about new things and then striving to learn as much as possible about those things. An INTP often reminisces on the past and likes to hold on to keepsakes because they remind him or her of fond times, even if the objects individually have no value or purpose. INTPs are often considered emotionless or even introverted feeling (even by themselves) because the Fe is the inferior, but the Fe can be contacted when the INTP is off guard and is indeed very extroverted. INTPs who have not developed their Fe have immature and raw emotional responses: sudden outbursts of anger when brought to their wit's end or unending tears when making up after an intense fight or loss of a loved one (as opposed to, say, an INTJ who may only grow more stoic in a similar situation). INTPs typically recognize these emotional outbursts as inappropriate and immature, but often fall into the trap of adding a longer fuse to the emotional bomb instead of seeking to develop their Fe to maturity. This is due to the Si remembering how the INTP acted previously in a similar stressful situation and the Ti-Ne expertly crafting creative solutions around such stressors.

ENFJs on the other hand relies primarily on emotion and intution, seeking to interact with and relate to others, often neglecting themselves in the process. An ENFJ may often learn that they have given so much to those around them that they can no longer tend to their own emotional needs, and thus rely on their partner or close loved ones to fulfill that need. In this way the ENFJ can sometimes seem introverted, as they'll pull away from the crowds once they've given all they have. Unlike introverts, however, they typically still look to their close circle to recharge, thus still maintaining extroversion. ENFJs have the same capacity for raw logic as the INTP, but as the inferior function it has to be kindled and matured. ENFJs can often be interested in the sciences, as long as it helps them solve existing problems and meet interesting people.

INTPs and ENFJs are almost flip-flopped, which can lead to a lot of friction. The INTP prefers to tackle the world with Ti-Ne while the ENFJ prefers Fe-Ni. An improperly socialized INTP will usually not have the properly kindled Fe to just *get* the emotional nature of the ENFJ, while an ENFJ who was not encouraged to pursue the sciences growing up may be turned off by the INTP's preference for the abstract and internal instead of the constant human element. The INTP's inferior Fe and the ENFJ's inferior Ti allow them to be compatible, but it takes an effort from both parties. The INTP must use Ti-Ne to find creative ways to detect and respond to ENFJ's emotional needs, while the ENFJ must use Fe-Ni to understand the strange nature of INTP and why they have such quirky habits.


I hope you two ended up doing well. If not, I hope you learned something for the next time you enter a friendship or romantic relationship with an INTP.