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Elementary Logic by Willard Van Orman Quine : Is this really hard or am I retarded?

pjoa09

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Yes.

I am struggling.

Do the more intelligent INTPs suffer with this?

I feel like a retarded brute in class and a retarded brute while reading the book.

Insights.

If any of you have been through this, study tips?

Don't plan on drowning and withdrawing.
 

TimeAsylums

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-

Perhaps give a specific example?
 

pjoa09

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Ex-User (9062)

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Oh, mathematics, i will have to let you down on this, sorry.
:walkout:
 

pjoa09

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Oh, mathematics, i will have to let you down on this, sorry.
:walkout:

Oh well, I just wanna know if I am tripping out, or stupid, or it's really this difficult.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Oh well, I just wanna know if I am tripping out, or stupid, or it's really this difficult.

I can't wrap my head around it,
but i'm horrible at maths.
So, i couldn't tell if my math skills, or lack of,
are preventing me from unlocking it or not.
But my guess is that that's what's missing.
How good or bad are you at maths?
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Oh well, I just wanna know if I am tripping out, or stupid, or it's really this difficult.
what is the problem exactly?
Memorising the rules?
Memorising the syntax?
Using the syntax?
Using the rules?
Understanding?
Everything above?
 

~~~

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The more you get into it the harder it gets. Make sure you have covered the easier stuff before you delve further. It is also easier to pick it up from texts that cover the material rather than necessarily diving straight into the source material first.
 

pjoa09

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I can't wrap my head around it,
but i'm horrible at maths.
So, i couldn't tell if my math skills, or lack of,
are preventing me from unlocking it or not.
But my guess is that that's what's missing.
How good or bad are you at maths?

It's not math it's just incredibly complicated. I'd say three times more so than the math I am doing now.

Essentially deducing text into logical syntax and thereby allowing us to identify the truth value of a text.

I am shit in math. But I try.
 

pjoa09

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what is the problem exactly?
Memorising the rules?
Memorising the syntax?
Using the syntax?
Using the rules?
Understanding?
Everything above?

Pretty much everything above. It just gains pace incredibly and Quine's style of writing doesn't help at all. It just seems like rambles about deducing logic.

I think he is an INTP though. Seriously.

I am just surprised how much attention I have to give to this class.
 

pjoa09

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The more you get into it the harder it gets. Make sure you have covered the easier stuff before you delve further. It is also easier to pick it up from texts that cover the material rather than necessarily diving straight into the source material first.

So the book itself is actually difficult to understand?
 

~~~

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I would say that most more source-like material in logic is since about Russell (i.e. when modern logic basically starts).
 

Hadoblado

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Nice find TA.

I've done some formal logic. What I did used some different words and systems to those found in the book, but from what I see here they are essentially equivalent.

I did not complete the class, but what I did complete I was in the top percentile. What I'm saying is I'm good at what I know, but there's stuff I don't know.

Tips and trivia:
1) - Logic is a skill. It's learned. It's far less innate than many would have you believe. If you are struggling at the start it's still very possible to do well by the end. You need to practice it like it's an instrument though.

2) - It's something you learn systematically. Everything you've learned seems easy, while everything you've yet to learn seems impossible. I strongly disagree with TA's view that is should not be difficult to understand, and everything I've read points in the other direction. Most people are bad at logic to begin with. It's difficult, then it's not.

3) - The guy doesn't seem to be writing to an unexperienced audience. Have a dictionary handy and don't let any word escape your grasp. Logicians tend to be good at articulating precisely, but logic =/= communication, and often the emphasis that the reader is looking for isn't present. Don't read on until you understand everything entirely, unless you're definitely coming back.

4) - If possible, practice at every turn in every day life. If you disagree with someone, articulate it on paper in whatever logic language you're using.

5) - This is more of a general hint for study, but I found it particularly useful with logic. Try to come up with ways to process spatially. What would this looks like in a truth table? A truth tree? What categorisations can be used to order the X different fallacies/proofing methods/symbols etcetc?
 

TimeAsylums

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Most people are bad at logic to begin with.

I agree with this

I strongly disagree with TA's view that is should not be difficult to understand

That's interesting. From my experience, those who grasp it...just do. And once you have grasped "how it works" then you can just follow it again and again. Which is why I have posed the question "has he failed to grasp it?"




I was actually expecting @Duxwing here, or some of our other people that enjoy logic
 

Hadoblado

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The people that 'just do' likely already have made the leap one way or another. Take those people and test them say... here... and you'll find their natural aptitude for instantly grasping logic sorely tested. Logic is a toolbox, and some people have more tools already available than others.
 

Godofdogs

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just look da reviews of da book in amazon, dey r saying dat da book is written hard,
simple concepts are written in hard wayz.
 

Vrecknidj

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Quine isn't as clear as some other authors. I suspect that more of your troubles are with Quine than with logic.
 

Missfortune

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Start with something like Tarski's Intro to Logic or Langer's Symbolic Logic.
 

Cherry Cola

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This shit totally overloaded my working memory when I studied it. I reckon it shouldn't be too difficult if you just keep at it however. So basically Hado.

In any case the learning curve was surprisingly steep. Starts out super easy then it goes from that too total overload real quick.
 
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