Einstein++

[Architect]

Albert Einstein is our poster child. Clearly, obviously an INTP, who achieved what all INTPs dream of. Original discovery, fame, and a job at the Institute for Advanced Studies to do nothing but think. He didn't even have to deal with his family, after siring a few kids they left him alone. He didn't keep any close friends, yet he was known to many. How could it have gotten better? Is there any way an INTP could have a better life than the one Einstein enjoyed? I can't think of anything.

 

[Ink]

There's a possibilty Einstein was ENTP as well (pjunkieblog typed him as that)... If you google picture him most pictures are of a Ne-Fe face (compared to a Ti-Si face in your avatar), just throwing it out there

 

[kamari rised]

Albert Einstein is our poster child. Clearly, obviously an INTP, who achieved what all INTPs dream of. Original discovery, fame, and a job at the Institute for Advanced Studies to do nothing but think. He didn't even have to deal with his family, after siring a few kids they left him alone. He didn't keep any close friends, yet he was known to many. How could it have gotten better? Is there any way an INTP could have a better life than the one Einstein enjoyed? I can't think of anything.

no.
but it does depend on your perception. Someone could have the best life ever just living in the closet lol.

 

[BigApplePi]

There's a possibilty Einstein was ENTP as well (pjunkieblog typed him as that)... If you google picture him most pictures are of a Ne-Fe face (compared to a Ti-Si face in your avatar), just throwing it out there

I've heard the ENTP diagnosis on Einstein elsewhere. This brings up, how do we judge the visual values over what we know about his lifetime behavior? Could he be an INTP with an ENTP European face?

 

[Architect]

Einstein an ENTP? There is simply no way that could be true. While they do have the same functions as the INTP in different order, I can't see Einstein as one. He's not an Inventor. ENTP Inventors are always looking for a new project - Einstein always had one goal which was to discover a Unified Field Theory. A person spends most of their time in the dominant - Ti for an an INTP which describes Einstein perfectly. The ENTP is dominate Ne, which is NOT how Einstein spent his time. After the Annus Mirabulus most new ideas (Bose Einstein condensate, EPR, etc) came from other physicists wanting to collaborate with him. His focus was on discovering total truth (Ti), not looking for new directions and ideas (Ne). In fact his biggest mistake was in not embracing quantum mechanics, which surely a Ne dominant ENTP would have.

Besides the guy didn't socialiize, no no no no no no no no no no no ....

 

[SLushhYYY]

I thought Einstein was an obvious INTP, with nothing to argue about, going letter by letter.

 

[kamari rised]

even if you INTP you can still work on your extrovert functions through perception and analysis.

Go dopamine!

 

[Ink]

I've heard the ENTP diagnosis on Einstein elsewhere. This brings up, how do we judge the visual values over what we know about his lifetime behavior? Could he be an INTP with an ENTP European face?

From what I've seen of him
From what I've seen of him my guess would be he was very introverted ENTP, INTP of course coming in as my second guess

 

[Ink]

even if you INTP you can still work on your extrovert functions through perception and analysis.

Go dopamine!

We (or at least I) have to make a small effort to put on the extroverted Ne-Fe face, it does not seem forced in that way for him

 

[Teohrn]

Einstein was definitely an introvert. I don't even think it's up for question. In fact, I think all of his letters were rather strong, perhaps even extreme. He had a enormous p-ness. (I don't know that from personal experience, I just say that on the basis of what I have read.) He was quite clearly intuitive and thinking.

A rather fitting quote in context of his huge p-ness: "I love to travel, but hate to arrive".

 

[PhoenixRising]

Actually, it isn't true that Einstein didn't have any close friends. Have you ever read his autobiography? Here is an excerpt from The World As I See It:

"During the eighteen years I spent in Berlin I had very few close friends, and the closest was Professor Katzenstein. For more than ten years I spent my leisure hours during the summer months with him, mostly on his delightful yacht. There we confided our experiences, ambitions, emotions to each other."

He also loved people with all his heart, and regarded service and respect to his fellow man as his highest calling. He still could have been an INTP. I share his sentiment and have a deep love for my fellow human beings (at least most the time). Being an introvert means that you need time alone to recharge, but not that you don't enjoy the company of other people as well.

 

[Architect]

We (or at least I) have to make a small effort to put on the extroverted Ne-Fe face, it does not seem forced in that way for him

That's a bit of a thin argument, especially since we have so little footage and exposure of him. Typing public figures can be tough. One, because often their public persona is different from the private real person, and two, it can be hard sometimes to get enough of a read on them, paradoxically.

There is simply no way he is an ENTP but for grins let's analyze it

• Functions On a functional business there is no way to tell the difference between an INTP and an ENTP. This is unfortunate because the functions are the best way to determine a person's type. Instead will have to drop down to the letters. Do you see someone who is outwardly focused? Or do we see somebody who is inwardly focused? During his lifetime is he somebody who regularly engaged, like on a daily basis, with other people, actively, and with increasing energy? Because of my background I spent some time studying him and I believe the answer is no. He avoided social engagements when he could, and as I said did not have a lot of close friends.
• Dominant Is he a Thinker above all? Or is he an explorer? As I mention above he was a thinker. Certainly not an explorer as he never made peace with QM.

Ah well that's enough.

Actually, it isn't true that Einstein didn't have any close friends. Have you ever read his autobiography? Here is an excerpt from The World As I See It:

"During the eighteen years I spent in Berlin I had very few close friends, and the closest was Professor Katzenstein. For more than ten years I spent my leisure hours during the summer months with him, mostly on his delightful yacht. There we confided our experiences, ambitions, emotions to each other."

I didn't mean that he didn't have ANY close friends, just not a lot (INTP).

He also loved people with all his heart, and regarded service and respect to his fellow man as his highest calling. He still could have been an INTP. I share his sentiment and have a deep love for my fellow human beings (at least most the time). Being an introvert means that you need time alone to recharge, but not that you don't enjoy the company of other people as well.

Completely INTP. Our ultimate goal is provided by the inferior - Fe, which means service to mankind (not man). Read up on this more at Personality Junkie.

Give it up people; he's one of ours.

 

[Ink]

That's a bit of a thin argument, especially since we have so little footage and exposure of him. Typing public figures can be tough. One, because often their public persona is different from the private real person, and two, it can be hard sometimes to get enough of a read on them, paradoxically.

There is simply no way he is an ENTP but for grins let's analyze it

• Functions On a functional business there is no way to tell the difference between an INTP and an ENTP. This is unfortunate because the functions are the best way to determine a person's type. Instead will have to drop down to the letters. Do you see someone who is outwardly focused? Or do we see somebody who is inwardly focused? During his lifetime is he somebody who regularly engaged, like on a daily basis, with other people, actively, and with increasing energy? Because of my background I spent some time studying him and I believe the answer is no. He avoided social engagements when he could, and as I said did not have a lot of close friends.
• Dominant Is he a Thinker above all? Or is he an explorer? As I mention above he was a thinker. Certainly not an explorer as he never made peace with QM.

I have visited a couple of research facilities through school and I found many Ne-doms there, inferior Si can definitely motivate one to leave a permanent mark on the world. Also, just because you are naturally an extrovert does not mean that you are socially extroverted. I also believe that the only way to truly figure out ones type is watching them physcially react to things rather than studying achievements since so many different things influence those, I atleast definitely think there is enough arguments to seriously consider ENTP as Einsteins type as well as INTP.

 

[Architect]

I have visited a couple of research facilities through school and I found many Ne-doms there,

Sure and I worked at the national labs and universities in physics research for years, I knew many of them. That means nothing, it doesn't prove that he was one. If anything it indicates something new - why didn't he work at Los Alamos? INTP's are most prone to avoid institutional settings if they can avoid it. There may be more to this story, but I haven't seen it and as Ii said I studied Einstein quite a bit in my science days, since I admired him so much (and because I was a GR guy)

inferior Si can definitely motivate one to leave a permanent mark on the world.

Evidence? Leaving a mark is Fe related in the INTP, not Si. Si is related to history, internal 'body sense', and the familiar.

Also, just because you are naturally an extrovert does not mean that you are socially extroverted.

Sources? Find an extrovert type that doesn't socially extrovert to one degree or another. A-priori the word means that you get energy from people, not vice-versa. Of course a persons personality can downplay or enhance the type, but we're not discussing that.

I also believe that the only way to truly figure out ones type is watching them physcially react to things rather than studying achievements since so many different things influence those,

Agree, but we only have what we have here.

I atleast definitely think there is enough arguments to seriously consider ENTP as Einsteins type as well as INTP.

OK, so what are they?

 

[PhoenixRising]

I didn't mean that he didn't have ANY close friends, just not a lot (INTP).


Well the way you put it made it sound like you thought he didn't have any close friends at all: "He didn't keep any close friends, yet he was known to many. "

 

[Minuend]

One of the issues of today is that quite a few tend to believe there is one ideal life. One ideal mate, one ideal career, one ideal life style etc.

This means that if that one option is cut off, some become very depressed. Of course being disappointed is fine, but eventually one should realize that there are hundreds of different ways to live a life they would subjectively think interesting and awesome.

It also means that certain types of workers are considered losers on the job market. Some will feel their worth is declining along with the "lower types of jobs" (whatever they consider those to be).

So my answer to the original question would be yes, I can imagine many other lives that would be equally and more pleasurable than the one Einstein lived. Did EInstein ever comment on to what degree he loved his life?

I don't think I envy his personal life too much.

 

[~~~]

Going by what Minuend says he sounds like a tyrant.

 

[Architect]

One of the issues of today is that quite a few tend to believe there is one ideal life. One ideal mate, one ideal career, one ideal life style etc.

...

It also means that certain types of workers are considered losers on the job market. Some will feel their worth is declining along with the "lower types of jobs" (whatever they consider those to be).

So my answer to the original question would be yes, I can imagine many other lives that would be equally and more pleasurable than the one Einstein lived. Did EInstein ever comment on to what degree he loved his life?

@Minuend

Ah but that's not what I asked. I specifically said ...

Is there any way an INTP could have a better life

If we believe anything about MBTI - and surely we do since we congregate here, then surely the desired gross aspects of a persons life - job, money, fame - would surely be shared among people of the same type.

 

[Minuend]

It applies to all types.

 

[Architect]

It applies to all types.

Okay so then let's take the contrapositive of your idea, in this case that there is no job that no INTP would like. In other words there exists no job, that you could find that all INTPs would dislike.

How about, being a customer service representative? A Wall Mart Greeter, or a logging truck driver? In those three cases, I know of people who actually love them. One ESF type who loves working with customers, likewise similar for the greeter, and an IS type who loves driving a truck. In all these cases they did their jobs for decades, and never wanted to leave.

Can you imagine an INTP who wouldn't like these jobs? I have a hard time believing that a true INTP would be content to work with customers, helping them with their little issues, being charming, for 30+ years. It's possible I suppose that some INTPs might like to drive a truck - if it affords them the ability to think for long periods, but again for 30+ years? I don't see that.

Ultimately I see evidence that we can make generalizations about type.

 

[Minuend]

Okay so then let's take the contrapositive of your idea, in this case that there is no job that no INTP would like. In other words there exists no job, that you could find that all INTPs would dislike.

I never said that.

Though, it wouldn't even come to that, some of them would make up their minds about what they like and dislike without even trying it. Quite a few are also unable to see different aspects about a seemingly boring job and pull out knowledge and experience from it. The idea of what something is (fun, boring, ridiculous, aspiring, etc) is too present a force in the brain. There is no exploration.

As a side note, I could never actually say that there exists jobs that all INTPs would dislike. Too conclusive. Even if I used like a guinea pig as an example, there would probably exist one crazy INTP who would love being mutilated.

 

[Architect]

I never said that.

I should have said the contrapositive of my idea, i.e., proving it by the contrapositive.

As a side note, I could never actually say that there exists jobs that all INTPs would dislike. Too conclusive. Even if I used like a guinea pig as an example, there would probably exist one crazy INTP who would love being mutilated.

Well I guess this is where the conversation dies. Perversely you take a perfectly INTP approach - being a non absolutist - to the issue of absolutism. Rather disproves your point I think. I'm also wary of taking a stand, but as I've gotten older have learned that eventually you should.

 

[mu is mu]

How could it have gotten better? Is there any way an INTP could have a better life than the one Einstein enjoyed? I can't think of anything.

If Aristotle really was an INTP, then I think he qualifies as an answer to these questions. But I don't want to misquote you here, as Aristotle apparently had a very different lifestyle/life experience than Einstein did.

 

[PhoenixRising]

One of the issues of today is that quite a few tend to believe there is one ideal life. One ideal mate, one ideal career, one ideal life style etc.

This means that if that one option is cut off, some become very depressed. Of course being disappointed is fine, but eventually one should realize that there are hundreds of different ways to live a life they would subjectively think interesting and awesome.

It also means that certain types of workers are considered losers on the job market. Some will feel their worth is declining along with the "lower types of jobs" (whatever they consider those to be).

So my answer to the original question would be yes, I can imagine many other lives that would be equally and more pleasurable than the one Einstein lived. Did EInstein ever comment on to what degree he loved his life?

I don't think I envy his personal life too much.

I agree with what you're saying here. From what I know of myself and others, people usually have at least a couple different lifestyles that they think would be ideal. In my case I wanted to be a businesswoman, or a nomad who travelled the world, or a nun (either Buddhist or Catholic). So far I've ended up as the businesswoman, but I hope to live all three of these possibilities over my lifetime.

Interesting how you've related having a narrow perspective with depression. That could be part of why some people have a "mid-life crisis".

 

[snafupants]

Albert Einstein is our poster child. Clearly, obviously an INTP, who achieved what all INTPs dream of. Original discovery, fame, and a job at the Institute for Advanced Studies to do nothing but think. He didn't even have to deal with his family, after siring a few kids they left him alone. He didn't keep any close friends, yet he was known to many. How could it have gotten better? Is there any way an INTP could have a better life than the one Einstein enjoyed? I can't think of anything.

@Architect

Personally I would want to eschew fame, risk, expectation, accolades, and work commitment. These things do not mean anything to me. Any novels I end up writing will be published anonymously via a nom de plume. I have a very cushy life planned out for myself. I want to continue generating revenue from writing and then move to a lake house in perhaps the next year (I have the location mapped out already), where I will spend the rest of my life reading, writing, golfing, kayaking, and researching. Travel appeals to me somewhat; perhaps in midlife I will undertake this when the wanderlust proves irresistible. When the health of my parents wavers, I will step in. I might also search out a partner in crime to swap sexual fluids and intellectually spar with. Dare to dream. I should add, for those demonstrably bemused, that I am a fairly recently declared INTJ temperament. Anyway, because I know happiness and health matter far more than achievements or possessions, I have orchestrated my life according to the foregoing guidelines. That's the good life for me at any rate. Caveat lector.

 

[intpz]

@snafupants as far as I know, writing generates ~10% of the revenue (which is low anyway), one of the reasons I haven't written anything yet.