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Eight Functions

chocolate

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Ermine: pulling ideas and connections out of thin air, that's fun isn't it! I always seem to be on alert for that, I have a scanner that will pick up anything that comes its way, it's quite automatic. I also emphathize with Ti being a nuisance. Very few people can understand it, yet it's so important to me.

Re. the over 30s, I am one too, but I feel like I am just starting to grow up now. I think I developed a pretty good Fe in my twenties, but I'm not sure I'll ever get sensing, I really wish I could get better at that.

Sybll: What do you mean by introverted? Until about five years ago I was extremely quiet and I used to consider myself an introvert. I'm not one to say you're extraverted because I don't know you at all, but I know from experience it's possible to be a very shy, quiet extravert.
 

sybyll

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Okay. This is the third time I try to write this reply, the last two times my internet-connection went *poof* or something because after I clicked "post," it vanished.

By introverted, I mean that I feel tired after spending time in the company of other people, like I expend energy on talking and socializing, instead of being "energized" by it. After a long day at school or work, I just want to lock myself in my room for a while and just be by myself a while. Preferably a long while. It's not that I'm particularly shy, or afraid to go out or something, I just don't want to most of the time.

And I think that's textbook definition of introvert.
 

chocolate

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Yeah I think so. I am the opposite, 9 times out of 10 anyway.

That thing happened to me too (the posting thing).
 

XIII

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Your Possible Type Code
According to the traditional sorting method of finding the most-used functional pairs (such as Fi-Ne), your type might be:
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Possible result: INTP

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]We are also trying a new sorting method to try to indicate best-fit type. This method is experimental and may not match your type. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Possible result: INTP[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Your self-assessment curve = -2.1[/SIZE][/FONT]


This seems about right, although I'd possibly place
Ni and Ne as high as Ti. Perhaps Ti is so natural to
me that I don't recognise how important it is to my
internal environment, though. I've been working on
developing my Se recently, and intend to increase it
dramatically over the next couple of months. The typing
doesn't take into account (nobody has given me
a satisfactory explanation for this yet) my Ni, which
I feel as or more comfortable using as any other
function. Nowadays, unlike when I was younger,
almost all of my conscious attention is on
Ne and Ni, and Ti somehow structures my thoughts
automatically. Ti has become the bitch of my mystic
visions ;).

I get so deep into my systems of abstractions and internal mythologies that Se is a necessary counter. Without it, I'd just disconnect from my body and drift off into the void. It's where I return to after my voyages into otherworlds. It's where I flirt and play and rejoice in my senses, and forget that I have stared into the eyes of Gods.
 

XIII

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Heh, looks like I'm the feeliest person here :D . No matter how hard all of you geniuses think about it, I'll make you all smile!

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Your Possible Type Code
According to the traditional sorting method of finding the most-used functional pairs (such as Fi-Ne), your type might be:
Possible result: ENFP

We are also trying a new sorting method to try to indicate best-fit type. This method is experimental and may not match your type.
Possible result: ENFP
 

preilemus

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we dont get many ENFPs (at least that i know of)

you might want to try tracking down facetiouspersona. i believe you 2 may share some common ground
 
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we dont get many ENFPs (at least that i know of)

you might want to try tracking down facetiouspersona. i believe you 2 may share some common ground

I'M HERE! YOU CALLED ME, BABY?
 

XIII

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Hey FacetiousPersona, my friend Glovehead thinks we'd be good together :D
 

XIII

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:rolleyes: I have no idea what that meant, but I'm going to pretend that I did so I can look smart.
 

severus

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Ti-me[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Ne-useful tool[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Si, [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Te-valued in others[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Se, [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Fi, [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Ni-interesting, not me[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Fe-"ha no, you fail"[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Oh dear. My Fe is quite pathetic.
I got INTP for both methods.
 

Razare

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Says I'm an INTP for both analysis.

Ti - This is me always thinking inside my head, what I use to communicate in writing here.
Ni - This is how I spot hidden meanings and integrate them into my Ti.
Ne - This is how I communicate in person to person encounters.
Fi - This plugs into my Ti, allowing me to analyze my own desires and the desires of others.
Te - This is the rare occasional when I actually verbally speak my thoughts, usually in a conversation with my ESTP father.
Fe - This is the very rare occasion when I tell someone how I feel about them.
Si - Doesn't exist for me.
Se - Doesn't exist for me.

Your Developmental Report
Your pattern of responses indicates a developmental level in each cognitive processes. Since this is experimental, this report may be in error.

Si,Se,Fe - What is this? I don't use it ever.

Te,Ne,Fi - When I'm using Te and talking with my dad. I throw a dash of Ne along with it and usually have some internal feeling going on, which I usually don't stop to analyze.

Ni,Ti - This is me online and in writing. But I think it would be better to call this process Fi, Ni, Ti with me, as I don't limit it to logic alone.
 

Philosophyking87

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Your Possible Type Code
According to the traditional sorting method of finding the most-used functional pairs (such as Fi-Ne), your type might be:
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Possible result: INTP

[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]We are also trying a new sorting method to try to indicate best-fit type. This method is experimental and may not match your type. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Possible result: INTP[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Your self-assessment curve = -2.1[/SIZE][/FONT]


This seems about right, although I'd possibly place
Ni and Ne as high as Ti. Perhaps Ti is so natural to
me that I don't recognise how important it is to my
internal environment, though. I've been working on
developing my Se recently, and intend to increase it
dramatically over the next couple of months. The typing
doesn't take into account (nobody has given me
a satisfactory explanation for this yet) my Ni, which
I feel as or more comfortable using as any other
function. Nowadays, unlike when I was younger,
almost all of my conscious attention is on
Ne and Ni, and Ti somehow structures my thoughts
automatically. Ti has become the bitch of my mystic
visions ;).

I get so deep into my systems of abstractions and internal mythologies that Se is a necessary counter. Without it, I'd just disconnect from my body and drift off into the void. It's where I return to after my voyages into otherworlds. It's where I flirt and play and rejoice in my senses, and forget that I have stared into the eyes of Gods.

Yeah, I got Ti>Ni>Ne>Fi>Si>Te>Se>Fe

Isn't it odd to have the intuitive abilities of both an INTP/ENTP and INTJ/INFJ?
While Ti is logically structuring everything according to principles, Ne is playing with ideas in a very IMAGINATIVE way, while Ni allows me to notice tons of POSSIBILITIES. As a result, my thoughts are future-based and visionary and inventive, with an inclination for brainstorming and idea-branching.

It's awesome having high Ni and Ne coupled with a super high Ti!!!!
 

LAM

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I usually get Ne, Ti/Te, Se, Ni, Si, Fe and Fi (and get labelled as a ENTP usually.) On pretty much every other types of MBTI tests I get INTP though (I am definitely an introvert though. Funny that most of my cognitive functions are ENTP oriented :p )
 

Jennywocky

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Yeah, I got Ti>Ni>Ne>Fi>Si>Te>Se>Fe

Isn't it odd to have the intuitive abilities of both an INTP/ENTP and INTJ/INFJ?

Not totally weird.
I usually get Ti/NeNi/Fe/Si/Fi/TeSe.
While Ti is logically structuring everything according to principles, Ne is playing with ideas in a very IMAGINATIVE way, while Ni allows me to notice tons of POSSIBILITIES. As a result, my thoughts are future-based and visionary and inventive, with an inclination for brainstorming and idea-branching.
That is the gist of it... although my issue is that my Ni often undermines my Ti. More specifically, Ti wants to derive things that are universally true, but Ti cannot operate without framing the logic first... and Ni comes along and says, "That logical proof is great, but it only works in that one frame of reference... and how do you know your frame of reference is the right one?" Ti then gets very annoyed with Ni.
 

Anthile

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That's not how typology works. At all.
 

Adymus

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and Ni comes along and says, "That logical proof is great, but it only works in that one frame of reference... and how do you know your frame of reference is the right one?" Ti then gets very annoyed with Ni.
So in other words, your "Ni" is serving the exact same purpose and functions the exact same way that Ne does...


...and yet you are still calling it Ni.
 

BigApplePi

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They went wrong when they made a cognitive processes test.
Assuming we have 1 of 16 temperaments, how do we determine which of those we are -- or can we? Can a "cognitive processes test" give us a clue? Such a test rated me "INTP." Shall I toss that conclusion?

Shall we do a video of ourselves and follow other techniques?
 

Anthile

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Assuming we have 1 of 16 temperaments, how do we determine which of those we are -- or can we? Can a "cognitive processes test" give us a clue? Such a test rated me "INTP." Shall I toss that conclusion?

Shall we do a video of ourselves and follow other techniques?


You can't. There is no reliable method to test cognitive processes, MBTI or temperament. Everyone who suggests otherwise is a liar until proven otherwise.
 

BigApplePi

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You can't. There is no reliable method to test cognitive processes, MBTI or temperament. Everyone who suggests otherwise is a liar until proven otherwise.

I would hate to realize I had a temperament only to discover there is no way to discover what it might be. Geesh. I could be an ESFJ and never know it. How horrible! (Sorry ESFJ's - no way I can insult you because you can't prove you are one.):D

Seriously, temperament judging is not hard science. It belong to psychology, a soft science. That is, truths go around a Bell-ish shaped curve, not like math'l logic or the same kind of testing as the hard sciences. The soft sciences appear to have problems with definitions, so how can we tighten up cause and effect? This doesn't mean we can't find truth, can't categorize at all, can't place in the ballpark, can't eliminate some unlikelihoods.

As an example, I strongly believe I always have been an introvert (the I in INTP). Everything I experience points to that. Yet my impression is on the internet where I can think over what I post, I am fond of talking to people, I try to talk at these things objectively most of the time, I am stimulated by others. I want to know and share your reactions. Isn't that extroverted?

No way I am an ENTP though. I'm sure Adymus would call that Fe or Ne, but I don't quite get that. My impression is on the internet, Ne dominates for me. Maybe that is wrong and the internet merely appeals to my Ne as it functions in a subordinate auxiliary manner to what as an INTP, I insist Ti comes first.

Domination stimulation is the concept at issue. Adymus (the proponent of special typing identification), thinks: now and forever. He differs from me in that I explore the "here and now."
 

LAM

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Looking back on the test (note: it doesn't give you results anymore,) I realised that the questions were somewhat poor. I guess I could say that the Te questions I double ticked almost all, even though all of the Te things could have just been me using my Ne/Ti together....
 

BigApplePi

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Looking back on the test (note: it doesn't give you results anymore,) I realised that the questions were somewhat poor. I guess I could say that the Te questions I double ticked almost all, even though all of the Te things could have just been me using my Ne/Ti together....

LAM or anybody -- do you have an example of a test question? If we see it it might be fun or useful to analyze it for what it means.
 

echoplex

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I'm curious, what if a test had good questions, and plenty of them (presumably to reduce aberrations), would patterns emerge that more accurately suggest a cog.func. preference in accordance with the popular (here at least) model/understanding of MBTI/Jungian -based typology? (long sentence is long)

If the test were truly 'good' enough, I think you would have to expect at least some relevance to the model. For example, your dominant function would score high and your inferior low. The middle two would depend on development (certain lack of development would actually make the tertiary higher), and 5th-6th would be slightly high, but not as high as 1st and maybe 2nd. Higher 5-6 scores might suggest lower 7-8 than otherwise. 8th would be low but perhaps higher if person is confused on that axis. Obviously a good amount of self-knowledge is needed to take advantage of a 'good' test.

My point is it could still be useful even if it's not a reliable determining method. But then, as said earlier, there is no reliable method to date, just bad ones and worse ones. So, bring on the bad ones!?
 

Adymus

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There are no good questions, asking a person questions about how their psyche works is just an inaccurate method in itself, no matter how it is worded.


What the cognitive process test does is it questions you based on certain "symptoms" of each cognitive function. For example, if you structured a logical plan, you did it by using Te. This is actually not true at all, it is actually possible to create a structured plan by using Ti, Ne, Si, and then Fe, for the case of an INTP like me. As I have explained in CF100, we have priorities that are meant to serve certain purposes. Such as Ne taking in information in real time from the outside, but that does not mean it is the same thing as Se, even though it is serving the same purpose as Se.

The cognitive process test assumes that because you can relate to these questions enough to put check marks in them, you must have these function developed. There are four factors that are going into what you are selecting in the CP test: recognition, association, inspiration, and disassociation.

Recognition:
As you answer questions, you will recognize uses of the functions that you consciously use and associate with, for an INTP this is Ti and Ne. Now you consciously use more than just Ti and Ne, but those two are going to be the most apparent to you because of the fact that it is these two that create your sense of self. Unless you are completely oblivious to the workings of your mind, you top to functions should at least be in there, now here is the part where a bunch of extras go in as well.

Association:

There are many functions that we use that are similar to our recognition functions, but still very different. These are processes that we don't have, but we will associate with the ones we do have because of their similarity. Examples of these are Fi and Se. Fi and Ti actually come from the same brain quad, they are extremely similar in their functionality and serve the same purpose in one's psyche. They are both subjective discernment functions that serve as a compass of sorts, whether it be logical or moral. You could actually say there is a little bit of unconscious Fi in Ti, and a little bit of Ti in Fi. One must have convictions for logic in order to resonate with the purely logical, and one must have a logical reason for having convictions. Yet still, to suggest that you are using both is still missing the point, your priority is going to focus on Logic or morality, and that is what makes it a completely different process.
Everyone has emotions, and a feeling process of sorts, but because of the fact that we are introverts, and don't closely associate with the external, we will think of our feelings as introverted, even though they are not.
There could be a similar confusion with Se and Ne, because in order to grasp an Ne pattern in the first place, the starting point must be a detail (Se). But again, you are not looking for details, you are focusing on patterns, which is why it is Ne you are using, not Se.

Inspiration:

These are functions that we do not have, but not only could we associate with them more than what we do have, we are inspired by their usage. Examples of these are Te and Ni. Every personality must have a "worldview" function, for an INTP it is Si. But we don't really like to associate with details and sensing, that is just not how we see ourselves. Ni is the other worldview function, and when posed with something like the question of the CP test, we are going to resonate more with an Ni worldview more than we are an Si worldview. Whatever your top two functions are (ie: Ti-Ne), it is naturally that you would see the respective functions of opposite rationality (ie: Te-Ni) as inspirational and desirable. They are the functions that we don't have, but we look up to and kind of wish we did.

Disassociation:
The very definition of "the shadow" in Jungian psychology is all that is a part of us that we do not identify with, or just do not like. This is why your shadow functions (For an INTP they are Si and Fe) are going to fall into this category. Our shadow functions are present, they are less conscious than our dominant and auxiliary, but we do consciously use them. As intuitives and thinkers we don't really see ourselves as detail oriented, or gregariously feeling. We have this capacity, but it is not a part of us that we like to associate with. Ti is the opposite with Fe, as Ti dominant it is Ti that really identify with, sense Fe is Ti's opposite, then that means we will identify with Fe the least. Because of this your shadow functions are probably going to be way below other functions on a CP test do to the fact that we just don't see them as being a part of us, even though they effect your psyche is the most profound of ways.


Now then, if you combine all of these factors into a cognitive process test, you results could very well end up: Ti, Fi, Ne, Ni, Te, etc, dispite the fact that you have neither Ni, nor Te, nor Fi.

You see, you cannot possibly measure one's psyche with a written test. It is ludicrous to think you can, and I am really hoping INTPs will drop this obsession with quantifiable evidence of something that cannot be quantified. Even the basic MBTI test, is not measuring what you use, but your awareness of what you use. This awareness can be biased by many things such as Idealism, culture, confidence, and level of growth. For instance, an ENFP who has worked really hard on their Te, might just start answering the questions as they would a strong thinker. They worked hard to develop that part of themselves, they are proud, and they deserve it. But that doesn't mean that they have Te as a preferred function and it is your innate preferences that truly decides what your personality type is, not what you could possibly use. It is not about what you have, or what you can do, it is about where you start and what you naturally prefer to do.
 

cheese

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How would you explain getting the same (top) scores for Ti, Te, Fi and Fe? Where was I getting confused about what I was using? Any ideas?

iNtuition really didn't make any sense at all to me for a very long time.
 

BigApplePi

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Adymus I first read your message when you posted it. I thought I'd give it some time before I commented because I found it hard to grasp.

There are no good questions, asking a person questions about how their psyche works is just an inaccurate method in itself, no matter how it is worded.
While that may be true, people are interested in their temperament and when told there are different types, they will want to know where they stand. There are not always "experts" around to tell them.

What the cognitive process test does is it questions you based on certain "symptoms" of each cognitive function. For example, if you structured a logical plan, you did it by using Te. This is actually not true at all, it is actually possible to create a structured plan by using Ti, Ne, Si, and then Fe, for the case of an INTP like me.
While symptoms only tell the surface not what is underneath, sometimes they are all we have. If an INTP structures a logical plan, and it looks like Te to the non-expert, we could call this, "pseudo-Te."

As I have explained in CF100, we have priorities that are meant to serve certain purposes. Such as Ne taking in information in real time from the outside, but that does not mean it is the same thing as Se, even though it is serving the same purpose as Se.
Um. I'm tempted to use the word, "described" not "explained" but I won't.

The cognitive process test assumes that because you can relate to these questions enough to put check marks in them, you must have these function developed. There are four factors that are going into what you are selecting in the CP test: recognition, association, inspiration, and disassociation.

Recognition:
As you answer questions, you will recognize uses of the functions that you consciously use and associate with, for an INTP this is Ti and Ne. Now you consciously use more than just Ti and Ne, but those two are going to be the most apparent to you because of the fact that it is these two that create your sense of self. Unless you are completely oblivious to the workings of your mind, you top to functions should at least be in there, now here is the part where a bunch of extras go in as well.

Association:

There are many functions that we use that are similar to our recognition functions, but still very different. These are processes that we don't have, but we will associate with the ones we do have because of their similarity. Examples of these are Fi and Se. Fi and Ti actually come from the same brain quad, they are extremely similar in their functionality and serve the same purpose in one's psyche. They are both subjective discernment functions that serve as a compass of sorts, whether it be logical or moral. You could actually say there is a little bit of unconscious Fi in Ti, and a little bit of Ti in Fi. One must have convictions for logic in order to resonate with the purely logical, and one must have a logical reason for having convictions. Yet still, to suggest that you are using both is still missing the point, your priority is going to focus on Logic or morality, and that is what makes it a completely different process.
Everyone has emotions, and a feeling process of sorts, but because of the fact that we are introverts, and don't closely associate with the external, we will think of our feelings as introverted, even though they are not.
There could be a similar confusion with Se and Ne, because in order to grasp an Ne pattern in the first place, the starting point must be a detail (Se). But again, you are not looking for details, you are focusing on patterns, which is why it is Ne you are using, not Se.

Inspiration:

These are functions that we do not have, but not only could we associate with them more than what we do have, we are inspired by their usage. Examples of these are Te and Ni.
Every personality must have a "worldview" function, for an INTP it is Si.
Can you explain that a little more?

But we don't really like to associate with details and sensing, that is just not how we see ourselves. Ni is the other worldview function, and when posed with something like the question of the CP test, we are going to resonate more with an Ni worldview more than we are an Si worldview. Whatever your top two functions are (ie: Ti-Ne), it is naturally that you would see the respective functions of opposite rationality (ie: Te-Ni) as inspirational and desirable. They are the functions that we don't have, but we look up to and kind of wish we did.
Disassociation:
The very definition of "the shadow" in Jungian psychology is all that is a part of us that we do not identify with, or just do not like. This is why your shadow functions (For an INTP they are Si and Fe) are going to fall into this category.
This is the first time I recall you defining "shadow functions." If they are as you say here, that helps.

Our shadow functions are present, they are less conscious than our dominant and auxiliary, but we do consciously use them. As intuitives and thinkers we don't really see ourselves as detail oriented, or gregariously feeling. We have this capacity, but it is not a part of us that we like to associate with. Ti is the opposite with Fe, as Ti dominant it is Ti that really identify with, sense Fe is Ti's opposite, then that means we will identify with Fe the least.
Because of this your shadow functions are probably going to be way below other functions on a CP test do to the fact that we just don't see them as being a part of us, even though they effect your psyche is the most profound of ways.
That would help make a CP test more accurate I would think.

Now then, if you combine all of these factors into a cognitive process test, you results could very well end up: Ti, Fi, Ne, Ni, Te, etc, dispite the fact that you have neither Ni, nor Te, nor Fi.

You see, you cannot possibly measure one's psyche with a written test.
Suppose we drop the word, "measure" and substitute, "correlation"?

It is ludicrous to think you can, and I am really hoping INTPs will drop this obsession with quantifiable evidence of something that cannot be quantified. Even the basic MBTI test, is not measuring what you use, but your awareness of what you use.
I'm not a psychologist. Perhaps a better test is needed.

This awareness can be biased by many things such as Idealism, culture, confidence, and level of growth. For instance, an ENFP who has worked really hard on their Te, might just start answering the questions as they would a strong thinker. They worked hard to develop that part of themselves, they are proud, and they deserve it. But that doesn't mean that they have Te as a preferred function
Tough. So the test fails for them. Tests are supposed to measure something. Sometimes they fail as when an A student gets a C or a C student gets an A.

and it is your innate preferences that truly decides what your personality type is, not what you could possibly use. It is not about what you have, or what you can do, it is about where you start and what you naturally prefer to do.
Agreed. It is not always evident what is "natural", but what do you mean by "where you start"?

A professor once told me, "You need to find yourself." Didn't help. I was lost for many years.
 
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