Ego and MBTI (INTJ vs INTP)

[Black Rose]

From @birdsnestfern signature

Order of creation:
1. Desire & 2. Intention
3. Thought & 4. Emotion
5. Action & 6. Behavior

Mantra: The body is Nothing
I am the conqueror of my mind and body

1. want or need - having and attachment (to cling to as The Buddha said)
2. the result or outcome of that we wish to be
3. what comes out of the unconscious into the conscious (verbal | visual)
4. the impulses of the energy within
5. body in motion
6. the tendency of repeating what you do according to | in relation to your conditions.

-

In my understanding of what the ego is: the amygdala is where instincts are held, these are what you do naturally without reflective thought. The amygdala is connected to the core emotions, as emotions are derived from the primal need to survive. The amygdala translated feelings into actions via the front lobes.

Fi is in effect the relation to the impulse to know it by the internal source.
Fe is the negation of the impulse, having an externally driven source.

Ti is the obscuring of the personal relation one has to the concepts one contemplates. needs only reflection.
Te relegates the impulse to a seizer upon the external, thus is empirical in control of external concepts.

So Ti reflects by the frontal lobe's total control of impulses.
And Te is the command of using impulses to gain the effects of what it needs to understand outside itself.

INTJ has Ni which is the ability to know the subjectivity of itself. (the subjectivity of subjectivity itself)
INTP has Ne which is the external world of ideas becomes objectively possible even immediate(Si).

Willpower to the INTJ is the energy to carry out an impulse to gain the subjective awareness of what is next in the world via the transposition of the world inside one's self.

Willpower to the INTP is the decrease in one's impulses to carry out the reflective process of acting on the design set in the mind.

INTJs find the energy to act by increasing the impulses within that leads to results.
INTPs decrease the impulses that prevent one from acting and reflection.

Ego then in both INTP and INTJ are opposite endeavors of the balance between the directions of impulses. (intention)

 

[birdsnestfern]

Very complex analysis. Yes, its true, the motivation comes when its me chosing in a relaxed way. Well, except last minute pressure also does it. I'm just having trouble thinking of examples of the INTJ, for example, what would be a sample of an impulse?

 

[Black Rose]

Very complex analysis. Yes, its true, the motivation comes when its me chosing in a relaxed way. Well, except last minute pressure also does it. I'm just having trouble thinking of examples of the INTJ, for example, what would be a sample of an impulse?

bending things to your will.

or when you have such energy to create things.

so it is under pressure all the time, the intensity of the moment.

I feel tense all the time. But this moves me forward.

it is just that to reflect is to actually decrypt from the inside (Ti)

it's more like encrypting a physical procedure into myself (Te)

or

Ti is a synthesis of parts. (ideas inside the head apart and together)

Te is reverse engineering. (taking it apart and adjusting it outside)

So

This is confusing: Ni and Fi are to me what comes out but only when I look inside myself, not as pictures or sounds but as listening to what I am about to do and I do not do it until I feel I got it. I do what is just what I do after I know what to do. No thinking just feel it has to be that way.

Ti Ne is rational, it combines by following all possible ways until it sees all failed and successful permutations.

Ti and Ni are kind of like human calculators. Remembers all programs that just combine.

Fi is like dancing it just happens. But it comes out.

Fe is like orders from the outside as I said directed from the external.

But Fi builds up and you need to do something (Fe is still until activated from the outside source) - passive | active but I think that Fe vacates all energy (implosion) well Fi sublimates it.

But then Se and Si need to be explained with Fi and Fe

Si and Fi are completely mindlessness like feral animals in a city square (total reactive)

Fi and Se most likely just contain the energy until it can push the world into some kind of direction.

Si and Fe will do anything that need to be done but not from any source of energy within but just letting the energy get for themselves into the other things, like its not the body but the need that matters. (I call this the mostly comatose state)

Fe and Se lose themselves into the world at large, they are everything and everything is them. That is why Jesus was able to empathize with everything as one.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I get lost in it. I just want to see it as Momentum - where the first push to get the ball rolling takes the most effort. The outside pressure of a deadline does force me to get something done, but when it comes to self motivation, I need it slow, easy, and nice, in other words, most of those church like preachers and exersize dvds turn me off completely because of the military style doesn't work for me.

I don't have the functions memorized, so I have copy and paste to remind myself here:

INTPs have their cognitive functions stack in the following order:

• Introverted Thinking (Ti)
• Extraverted Intuition (Ne)
• Introverted Sensing (Si)
• Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

Jackie Core Workout ​

is the ONLY exersize dvd I ever wanted to watch more than once because she is nice and doesn't bark orders at you, lol, I dislike Jillian, she has so much mean energy. I don't know if thats what other INTP's feel, the mean authority just doesn't work.​

 

[Black Rose]

I don't know if thats what other INTP's feel, the mean authority just doesn't work.

All the INTP memes/internet interactions I saw say that INTPs mostly need a reason to do something if that something is not thoroughly explained to the T. That is analysis is the foundation of INTP cognition. So many things need to take into consideration they explicate every detail. No stone unturned.

INTJ just want results, very picky about what they learn if it is necessary or unnecessary. It is more about control. Which is a step down from the flow that the INTP gets from mental exploration. They (INTP) do not want to do things they already know is pointless repetition. INTJ just want to solve one problem in life their main goal and all flows around it. ENTJ commands this goal differently in that research is the focus but INTJ has ideas (Ni) that wander around the goal that leads to a more interesting way of visualizing it. ENTJ builds up the goal in reality, INTJ builds up the fantasy as a more abstract goal. Because they want to feel good about it. ENTJ just wants it whatever it is.

INTP will design things where the process of design is the reward. It is mental perfection. A harmony. like INFJ but INFJ just see it as harmony between them and everything. INTP harmony is where nothing can destroy the flawless design so they work hard to penetrate into all things that will break it. And when it cannot be broken they are happy.

ENFJ is like INFJ but ENFJ needs the world to be at peace so act on this by understanding people and getting people to work together. INFJ instead brings the world into the way they see it best for it to be. That means they understand people in ways as to find the perfection of human psychology. then they tell others what this perfection is and how to become it. But ENFJ would rather this happen now that reform a system.

INTP systems are what they know works because no part can be foiled. They thought of everything. But INTJ goals are eccentric. To them, through Fi they get what others are like in the psychic sense but not like INFJ because it is not the perfection of people that matters but the perfect idea, and that idea is the cornerstone of achievement in the external world. It is the totality of where their spirit is connected. So in their spirit, this idea must be what they must achieve because if they do then it unified everything in a grand theory. Which is the source of all ideas (regarding ideas that to them in the subjective plane is revealed by what happens to be where they find their impulse to create comes from) and not exactly something to acquire like ENTJs and their mission of empirical discovery. The INTJ saw in themselves the source of the where to look for a definite understanding of all reality. not that they must understand reality empirically and fully to obtain the complete picture.

So when INTPs get into squabbles with INTJ it is more a clash of ENTPs and ENTJs.

All four come into the arena and the NTP say they have a perfect model that cannot be broken logically and the NTJs say they look for the foundations of reality that need experimentation to extrapolate from. In all mental models, the INTP has worked at every angle but the INTJ needs confirmation that this is indeed a system that works. So they spoil each other with the conditions of who needs to justify what and to the extent that they do then it is only by the splitting of certain hairs that they come to an agreement.

The external validation of MBTI for example: can it be tested? But Jung said it was an orientation so you need to understand where you direct your perception and judgments before you can understand where in the brain this happens in relation to the different processes other people may have. What is YOUR direction? Is it subjective or objective? Where is your bias in understanding these claims and rejecting / or self-validating them? That is the whole point. Why are people different is the scope of where we take this psychology. Do people behave according to the theory? Why why not? People understand people so the physical test is not valid.

Like Piaget's stages of development. there is no test that confirms to a child at a lower stage that a higher stage exists. So too a paper test does not allow for the social intelligence necessary to contemplate the abstract nature of the subjectivity and objectivity of Introversion and Extraversion. Like teens do not understand what it will be like when they are 45 years old o 60 or 90. Ramifications are not concrete, they are a paradigm shift in understanding psychology with a new level of social intelligence. You cannot use a paper test to know if your spouse loves you for example. That is the position people find themselves in encountering jung for the first time.

 

[birdsnestfern]

INTPs mostly need a reason to do something if that something is not thoroughly explained to the T

Very true. And thank you for the explanation, this was in my language, and I 'got' it! I am still waking up, but its more what I understand. I'll read it over and over to let it sink in after I get some coffee. Liked this.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I found this, and since I'm I 95% N 60% T 60% P 95%, I'm definitely an abstract thinker. Right Brained/Spatial thinker.

Brain Types and Mental Skills
The types can also be broken down by letter, which denote certain mental skills:

Extroverted (E):

-Located in frontal (anterior) lobes of brain

-More energy-expending as opposed to energy-conserving

Introverted (I):

-Located in rear (posterior) lobes of brain

-More energy-conserving as opposed to energy-expending

Sensing (S):

-Brain more focused on physical-concrete functions than abstractions

Intuition (N):

-Brain more focused on abstract-mental functions than the physical and concrete world

Thinking (T):

-Brain more objectively focused, preferring the inanimate world (objects, things, systems, etc.)

Feeling (F):

-Brain more subjectively focused, preferring the animate world (life, people, relationships, etc.)

Judging (J):

-Left-brain dominant; inclined toward linear mental functioning; more analytic mental process

-Motor skill patterns are more rigid than fluid (tend to be less physically coordinated)

Perceiving (P):

-Right-brain dominant; inclined toward spatial mental functioning; more synthetic mental process

-Motor skill patterns are more fluid than rigid (tend to be more physically coordinated) htt

 

[Black Rose]

There are two ways to view typology:

dichotomies:

I v E
S vs N
T vs F
P vs J

Functions:

Introverted Perception

Si
Ni

Introverted Judgment

Ti
Fi

Extroverted Perception

Se
Ne

Extroverted Judgment

Te
Fe

The dichotomies really have no theory behind it.

I is not something by itself.
E is not something by itself.

J is not something by itself.
P is not something by itself.

The functions were observations Carl Jung made on cognition.

That Thinking is about inferences
That Feeling is about preferences
That Intuition is about abstraction
That Sensing is about stimulus

Introversion and Extraversion combine with a function.

Si is a stimulus that comes from inside the body (insula cortex)
Se is a stimulus that comes from outside the body (five senses)

Ni is abstracting what is inside the self (symbolism and meaning of subjectivity)
Ne is abstracting from what is outside the self (possibilities and relationships)

Ti makes inferences about what it reflects upon in the head (logic rule structures)
Te makes inferences about what is in the world (causality and data)

Fi is about extremes of likes and dislikes at different levels in all things
Fe is a vacated neutral stance on everything, i.e. what do others like/dislike not me personally?

-

INTJ: To them, everything is internal so they have a relationship with all things as the abstract of themselves. A car passes by, I am the car. A dog barks, I am the sound. What do they represent? What meaning do they have? Is this good or bad for me? If everything is me then what is it that makes the world and myself work (Te) is there a way to incorporate everything in myself to be what I want or is it that I must change things to make myself in such a way as to have the world do as I see it to do where I control reality with my thoughts? Are my thoughts the driver of reality? If so how do I control them?

INTP: To them, all structures are valid if they conform to the rules of a system. Thus all possibilities in the world must be taken into account by the systems they build internally. What factors and what constraints and what variables must all come together? Even the body is a system where data continuously streams in from the body and this is used to anticipate when a rule is set to break and where the focal point is to reevaluate the structures involved as a total whole. All dependencies are taken into account in a neutral way (Fe) with no prudence involved in whether this is ethical but rather whether is it able to conform and if it does then that is just how things are in that structure.

The INTJ goal is to understand the subjective and what reality is in those terms.

I myself have tried from age 12 to understand intelligence.

The INTP wants to understand how any and all system function.

They gather ideas from the world and construct models in their heads.

So dichotomies do not match one-to-one with functions and functions do not match one-to-one with brain regions. What functions do is show the attitude or the orientation one has to one's self and to the world.

 

[scorpiomover]

Ti is a synthesis of parts. (ideas inside the head apart and together)

Te is reverse engineering. (taking it apart and adjusting it outside)

Te is responding ASAP to information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Broad, but shallow (3-ply). Thinking time: 1 second max. Broad scans pick up the simple issues that will appear as obvious to those who notice them. They will usually not pursue the more deep thinking, as it's not necessary most of the time.

Ti is slowly digesting information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Narrow, but deep (10-ply). Thinking time: Up to a month.

If you are hungry, Te wants to find food, FAST! Te checks out each shop, till it finds the food that it wants (Fi).

Ti wants to digest your general issues with getting hold of food, and critique it, so that you may figure out a much better way of getting hold of food. Ti also wants to critique Te's current approach of getting food, so if you're going to a shop that is closed today, you'll go to the shops that are open.

Ti is thus not as efficient as Te in an environment where little thinking is required to achieve a reasonably satisfactory result, i.e. where getting on matters more than thinking.

However, in mission-critical areas, and areas of mass production, where greater precision will yield greater ROI, it becomes more beneficial to use Ti.

Ti also comes into play on a personal level, in areas of extreme danger, as the whole area is mission-critical.

 

[ZenRaiden]

INTPs were put on Earth to find solutions to problems other people don't care about.

 

[Old Things]

Ti is a synthesis of parts. (ideas inside the head apart and together)

Te is reverse engineering. (taking it apart and adjusting it outside)

Te is responding ASAP to information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Broad, but shallow (3-ply). Thinking time: 1 second max. Broad scans pick up the simple issues that will appear as obvious to those who notice them. They will usually not pursue the more deep thinking, as it's not necessary most of the time.

Ti is slowly digesting information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Narrow, but deep (10-ply). Thinking time: Up to a month.

If you are hungry, Te wants to find food, FAST! Te checks out each shop, till it finds the food that it wants (Fi).

Ti wants to digest your general issues with getting hold of food, and critique it, so that you may figure out a much better way of getting hold of food. Ti also wants to critique Te's current approach of getting food, so if you're going to a shop that is closed today, you'll go to the shops that are open.

Ti is thus not as efficient as Te in an environment where little thinking is required to achieve a reasonably satisfactory result, i.e. where getting on matters more than thinking.

However, in mission-critical areas, and areas of mass production, where greater precision will yield greater ROI, it becomes more beneficial to use Ti.

Ti also comes into play on a personal level, in areas of extreme danger, as the whole area is mission-critical.

This is interesting, thanks.

Some things about me...

I participated in a study today and will be back I think 3 more times for the same study. I noticed some things about my behavior that I took for granted before. It was an interview where they asked me all sorts of different questions about mental health, family, experiences history, among other things. I found that I was probably more long-winded than they wanted me to be as I would frequently answer with, "It depends..." and then go on a long rant about the dependencies. But the thing is, I noticed that what I would answer in my long-winded answers would oftentimes come up in another question I had already answered previously because of my long-winded answers. But they were not prepared to answer the questions I had already answered. So I answered very thoroughly and if they would have been able to remember everything I said, it would have cut down the number of questions they asked me. And this, as I think about it, is a perfect example of how I generally am in conversation. So when someone starts to think, "Make your point already!" It's because I am not just answering what they are asking about, but also subsequent questions they might ask later.

Another thing I have known about myself is that I am fairly assertive in Big 5 under Extroversion but low in positive emotion. So once I have thought about an issue, I can tell you all about it, but I'm not that great at thinking "on the spot." In other words, I suck at making jokes! But if you ask me a question about something I know something about, I can talk your ear off!

 

[scorpiomover]

Ti is a synthesis of parts. (ideas inside the head apart and together)

Te is reverse engineering. (taking it apart and adjusting it outside)

Te is responding ASAP to information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Broad, but shallow (3-ply). Thinking time: 1 second max. Broad scans pick up the simple issues that will appear as obvious to those who notice them. They will usually not pursue the more deep thinking, as it's not necessary most of the time.

Ti is slowly digesting information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Narrow, but deep (10-ply). Thinking time: Up to a month.

If you are hungry, Te wants to find food, FAST! Te checks out each shop, till it finds the food that it wants (Fi).

Ti wants to digest your general issues with getting hold of food, and critique it, so that you may figure out a much better way of getting hold of food. Ti also wants to critique Te's current approach of getting food, so if you're going to a shop that is closed today, you'll go to the shops that are open.

Ti is thus not as efficient as Te in an environment where little thinking is required to achieve a reasonably satisfactory result, i.e. where getting on matters more than thinking.

However, in mission-critical areas, and areas of mass production, where greater precision will yield greater ROI, it becomes more beneficial to use Ti.

Ti also comes into play on a personal level, in areas of extreme danger, as the whole area is mission-critical.

This is interesting, thanks.

You are welcome.

Some things about me...

I participated in a study today and will be back I think 3 more times for the same study. I noticed some things about my behavior that I took for granted before. It was an interview where they asked me all sorts of different questions about mental health, family, experiences history, among other things. I found that I was probably more long-winded than they wanted me to be as I would frequently answer with, "It depends..." and then go on a long rant about the dependencies.

This is very common with INTPs. This is because they are Ti-doms. Ti wants a very accurate answer. Many questions have different answers in different situations, and so the answer often depends.

ISTPs, who are also Ti-doms, also tend to say "it depends". But they tend to not bother with the long-winded explanations, and will only add a couple of sentences each time they are asked. So you have to ask them several questions, before you get them to reveal the various options.

Te-users usually don't answer this way, because Te is extroverted. Extroversion is all about the fight/flight response, and so seeks to give a quick answer that can be acted upon immediately. Most questions have a general answer that would be acceptable in most situations, and so that's the type of answer Te-users usually give.

But the thing is, I noticed that what I would answer in my long-winded answers would oftentimes come up in another question I had already answered previously because of my long-winded answers. But they were not prepared to answer the questions I had already answered. So I answered very thoroughly and if they would have been able to remember everything I said, it would have cut down the number of questions they asked me. And this, as I think about it, is a perfect example of how I generally am in conversation. So when someone starts to think, "Make your point already!" It's because I am not just answering what they are asking about, but also subsequent questions they might ask later.

This is because of the Te/Ti difference I mentioned earlier. Te likes a quickly actionable answer. So Te breaks down the complexity of the problem into several separate questions that can be answered simply in terms of a singular general answer, even when they are related.

But to Ti, because they are related, it's all part of one question. So when the first question is asked, Ti prefers to take some time to consider all the issues, then answer a complete answer. As a result, any related questions that follow on from the first question, are also answered by the Ti-dom's answer to the first question.

Another thing I have known about myself is that I am fairly assertive in Big 5 under Extroversion but low in positive emotion. So once I have thought about an issue, I can tell you all about it, but I'm not that great at thinking "on the spot." In other words, I suck at making jokes! But if you ask me a question about something I know something about, I can talk your ear off!

This is again, because Te is about giving a quick, actionable answer, while Ti is "rest and digest". Ti seeks to sit on the question for as long as it takes to come up with a comprehensive answer.

If Ti has been given the time to develop a comprehensive answer, such as the Ti-dom has thought about it before, then the Ti-dom is loaded with tons of information on the subject, and as you put it, can "talk your ear off".

Incidentally, when I used to see an STP car mechanic about my car, and once he was finished, I quizzed him about things he knew about, he would end up talking to me about them for an extra hour, even though the work itself took 10 minutes. Again, Ti, talking the ear off.

However, if Ti has NOT been given time to develop a comprehensive answer, then what usually happens is that Ti thinks of the Te basic answer in 1/10th of a second, and then proceeds right on to the more complex answer, in under a second. So then the Ti-dom COULD actually give the Te-answer, such as a basic joke. But because the Ti-dom now knows there is more to the situation than that, because his Ti has already shown him more in less than a second, he feels uncomfortable about giving an answer that he knows is incorrect.

This isn't a problem for the Te user, because once Te reaches an actionable answer, Te will automatically stop thinking and move straight into doing mode. So Te doesn't even get to the stage of computing that the Te answer is incomplete, until later, after the Te user has actioned the response.

However, as Ti-users learn to develop their Fe and get a handle on their emotions, they are able to suppress their temporary sense of discomfort at expressing what feels like "the wrong answer" to them, and are much more able at expressing the answer that others will be satisfied with (even though he knows it's wrong and would prefer to give the more complex answer).

 

[ZenRaiden]

Ti sux socially.

 

[Old Things]

Ti is a synthesis of parts. (ideas inside the head apart and together)

Te is reverse engineering. (taking it apart and adjusting it outside)

Te is responding ASAP to information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Broad, but shallow (3-ply). Thinking time: 1 second max. Broad scans pick up the simple issues that will appear as obvious to those who notice them. They will usually not pursue the more deep thinking, as it's not necessary most of the time.

Ti is slowly digesting information in a neural way. Multiple chains of sequential logic. Narrow, but deep (10-ply). Thinking time: Up to a month.

If you are hungry, Te wants to find food, FAST! Te checks out each shop, till it finds the food that it wants (Fi).

Ti wants to digest your general issues with getting hold of food, and critique it, so that you may figure out a much better way of getting hold of food. Ti also wants to critique Te's current approach of getting food, so if you're going to a shop that is closed today, you'll go to the shops that are open.

Ti is thus not as efficient as Te in an environment where little thinking is required to achieve a reasonably satisfactory result, i.e. where getting on matters more than thinking.

However, in mission-critical areas, and areas of mass production, where greater precision will yield greater ROI, it becomes more beneficial to use Ti.

Ti also comes into play on a personal level, in areas of extreme danger, as the whole area is mission-critical.

This is interesting, thanks.

You are welcome.

Some things about me...

I participated in a study today and will be back I think 3 more times for the same study. I noticed some things about my behavior that I took for granted before. It was an interview where they asked me all sorts of different questions about mental health, family, experiences history, among other things. I found that I was probably more long-winded than they wanted me to be as I would frequently answer with, "It depends..." and then go on a long rant about the dependencies.

This is very common with INTPs. This is because they are Ti-doms. Ti wants a very accurate answer. Many questions have different answers in different situations, and so the answer often depends.

ISTPs, who are also Ti-doms, also tend to say "it depends". But they tend to not bother with the long-winded explanations, and will only add a couple of sentences each time they are asked. So you have to ask them several questions, before you get them to reveal the various options.

Te-users usually don't answer this way, because Te is extroverted. Extroversion is all about the fight/flight response, and so seeks to give a quick answer that can be acted upon immediately. Most questions have a general answer that would be acceptable in most situations, and so that's the type of answer Te-users usually give.

But the thing is, I noticed that what I would answer in my long-winded answers would oftentimes come up in another question I had already answered previously because of my long-winded answers. But they were not prepared to answer the questions I had already answered. So I answered very thoroughly and if they would have been able to remember everything I said, it would have cut down the number of questions they asked me. And this, as I think about it, is a perfect example of how I generally am in conversation. So when someone starts to think, "Make your point already!" It's because I am not just answering what they are asking about, but also subsequent questions they might ask later.

This is because of the Te/Ti difference I mentioned earlier. Te likes a quickly actionable answer. So Te breaks down the complexity of the problem into several separate questions that can be answered simply in terms of a singular general answer, even when they are related.

But to Ti, because they are related, it's all part of one question. So when the first question is asked, Ti prefers to take some time to consider all the issues, then answer a complete answer. As a result, any related questions that follow on from the first question, are also answered by the Ti-dom's answer to the first question.

Another thing I have known about myself is that I am fairly assertive in Big 5 under Extroversion but low in positive emotion. So once I have thought about an issue, I can tell you all about it, but I'm not that great at thinking "on the spot." In other words, I suck at making jokes! But if you ask me a question about something I know something about, I can talk your ear off!

This is again, because Te is about giving a quick, actionable answer, while Ti is "rest and digest". Ti seeks to sit on the question for as long as it takes to come up with a comprehensive answer.

If Ti has been given the time to develop a comprehensive answer, such as the Ti-dom has thought about it before, then the Ti-dom is loaded with tons of information on the subject, and as you put it, can "talk your ear off".

Incidentally, when I used to see an STP car mechanic about my car, and once he was finished, I quizzed him about things he knew about, he would end up talking to me about them for an extra hour, even though the work itself took 10 minutes. Again, Ti, talking the ear off.

However, if Ti has NOT been given time to develop a comprehensive answer, then what usually happens is that Ti thinks of the Te basic answer in 1/10th of a second, and then proceeds right on to the more complex answer, in under a second. So then the Ti-dom COULD actually give the Te-answer, such as a basic joke. But because the Ti-dom now knows there is more to the situation than that, because his Ti has already shown him more in less than a second, he feels uncomfortable about giving an answer that he knows is incorrect.

This isn't a problem for the Te user, because once Te reaches an actionable answer, Te will automatically stop thinking and move straight into doing mode. So Te doesn't even get to the stage of computing that the Te answer is incomplete, until later, after the Te user has actioned the response.

However, as Ti-users learn to develop their Fe and get a handle on their emotions, they are able to suppress their temporary sense of discomfort at expressing what feels like "the wrong answer" to them, and are much more able at expressing the answer that others will be satisfied with (even though he knows it's wrong and would prefer to give the more complex answer).

Thanks! I think there could be other reasons why I am so long-winded besides being INTP, or there could be other factors that add to the equation, but this was still interesting to read! And sorry for the skepticism, but I can't help it! I've never felt "at home" with any specific type. When I answer questions pertaining to personality I often find, just like my answers to the interviewer, that it largely depends on different factors on what I would do at any given time.

Ti sux socially.

Well, I sure do suck socially, so there's that!

 

[scorpiomover]

Thanks! I think there could be other reasons why I am so long-winded besides being INTP, or there could be other factors that add to the equation, but this was still interesting to read! And sorry for the skepticism, but I can't help it! I've never felt "at home" with any specific type. When I answer questions pertaining to personality I often find, just like my answers to the interviewer, that it largely depends on different factors on what I would do at any given time.

Lots of INTPs are long-winded, and do the same things as you, including me. I don't see nearly as much prevalence among most people

 

[ZenRaiden]

Well, I sure do suck socially, so there's that!

Getting home with the downies.
People with down syndrome have literally better social skills than me.
I blame my brain, but since INTPs exist in the gene pool there must be a reason why we are the way we are, but honestly at this point in life I would have a better shot at life if I had lobotomy in terms of relationships.
When I look at the current "science" of it, it literally says you have to be stupid and just dumb down everything on purpose. I aint even that smart to begin with, so going south is risky business.

 

[Old Things]

Thanks! I think there could be other reasons why I am so long-winded besides being INTP, or there could be other factors that add to the equation, but this was still interesting to read! And sorry for the skepticism, but I can't help it! I've never felt "at home" with any specific type. When I answer questions pertaining to personality I often find, just like my answers to the interviewer, that it largely depends on different factors on what I would do at any given time.

Lots of INTPs are long-winded, and do the same things as you, including me. I don't see nearly as much prevalence among most people

There are some questions about this.
1) Are there other types that are "long-winded"? Although I am not an Extrovert, I would guess they would be the most long-winded of all. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
2) How does this relate to Big 5? Surely MBTI and Big 5 is not a 1:1 correlation.
3) Is MBTI even a valid metric of personality?

Well, I sure do suck socially, so there's that!

Getting home with the downies.
People with down syndrome have literally better social skills than me.
I blame my brain, but since INTPs exist in the gene pool there must be a reason why we are the way we are, but honestly at this point in life I would have a better shot at life if I had lobotomy in terms of relationships.
When I look at the current "science" of it, it literally says you have to be stupid and just dumb down everything on purpose. I aint even that smart to begin with, so going south is risky business.

LOL!

 

[scorpiomover]

Thanks! I think there could be other reasons why I am so long-winded besides being INTP, or there could be other factors that add to the equation, but this was still interesting to read! And sorry for the skepticism, but I can't help it! I've never felt "at home" with any specific type. When I answer questions pertaining to personality I often find, just like my answers to the interviewer, that it largely depends on different factors on what I would do at any given time.

Lots of INTPs are long-winded, and do the same things as you, including me. I don't see nearly as much prevalence among most people

There are some questions about this.
1) Are there other types that are "long-winded"? Although I am not an Extrovert, I would guess they would be the most long-winded of all. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

IME, SJs like to tell long stories.
INFJs like to tell long-winded conspiracy theories.
ISTPs like to rattle on with funny anecdote after funny anecdote.
ENFPs like to ask question after question about relationships.

2) How does this relate to Big 5? Surely MBTI and Big 5 is not a 1:1 correlation.

I don't know. Probably, being concise is probably a facet of consciensciousness.

3) Is MBTI even a valid metric of personality?

IMHO, it corresponds with human biological systems.

 

[Old Things]

IMHO, it corresponds with human biological systems.

First time I heard that. What is your evidence for that, though?

 

[Old Things]

And, @scorpiomover, I am curious how much stock you would put in the idea that I am INTP.

Years ago, I took an official MBTI test paying out of pocket to take it. It was very close between INTP and INTJ. I've always known I was an introvert and that has been the most consistent way I have seen myself. But everything else I have debated. I would be the second most confident that I am an N. I am simply far too concerned with ideas (often abstract) for me to think I am an S. It is possible I am an S but I think this is unlikely. Next, I would say I am reasonably confident that I am a P. But as far as F and T is concerned, IMO it is a 50/50 thing for me. I tend to be a very compassionate person and I cannot stand to see violence (such as a UFC fight, for example). But I tend to care about the logic of things as well.

As you know, my faith is very important to me. The most important thing in my life, in fact. I care about how God sees me far more than how I see my MBTI type. And many people would say religious people naturally fit into a certain type (such as SJ). But the thing is, I have some quite unique takes regarding doctrines in my faith and do not just believe the pastor who says something for the sake of it. I must reason out my own conclusions, in other words. So I am not stuck to what my particular branch of Christianity believes (being a Protestant) but I also do want to know what the Church Fathers thought about things since I do believe there is a danger of inventing your own religion if you ignore history.

 

[scorpiomover]

And, @scorpiomover, I am curious how much stock you would put in the idea that I am INTP.

Don't see why not.

Years ago, I took an official MBTI test paying out of pocket to take it. It was very close between INTP and INTJ. I've always known I was an introvert and that has been the most consistent way I have seen myself. But everything else I have debated. I would be the second most confident that I am an N. I am simply far too concerned with ideas (often abstract) for me to think I am an S. It is possible I am an S but I think this is unlikely. Next, I would say I am reasonably confident that I am a P. But as far as F and T is concerned, IMO it is a 50/50 thing for me. I tend to be a very compassionate person and I cannot stand to see violence (such as a UFC fight, for example). But I tend to care about the logic of things as well.

Thoughts are run on the nervous system, which transmits information from individual cell to cell in a specific pathway. So this tends to produce reasoning that is sequential steps, that starts with specific facts, and ends with specific conclusions.

Thinking logic: "If I do X, then Y will probably happen. I like Y. So I'll do X."

Feelings are neurochemicals generated in the endocrine system. They mix together, to produce an overall result. So Feelers tend to be much better at getting overall answers, Right or Wrong, True or False, etc.

Feeling logic: "X yields a positive result (Y). So I'll do Y."

As you know, my faith is very important to me. The most important thing in my life, in fact. I care about how God sees me far more than how I see my MBTI type. And many people would say religious people naturally fit into a certain type (such as SJ).

That's based on the assumption that SJs are people who follow rules blindly without any understanding, and that people who are religious follow rules blindly without any understanding.

I don't think any of those people would say that religious people are SJs, if they were reminded that African-Americans are far more likely to be religious than white Americans, and that women are far more likely to be religious than men.

But the thing is, I have some quite unique takes regarding doctrines in my faith and do not just believe the pastor who says something for the sake of it.

Sounds like a religious intuitive. Far more likely to take their existing religious beliefs and put a spin on it. For instance, there are very religious INTJs who were raised as atheists. For them, being religious is unconventional, because it was not the way they were raised.

I must reason out my own conclusions, in other words.

Sounds more like a T.

So I am not stuck to what my particular branch of Christianity believes (being a Protestant) but I also do want to know what the Church Fathers thought about things since I do believe there is a danger of inventing your own religion if you ignore history.

Yes. But that's more of a feeling that is a concern that affects your thinking. It doesn't override your thinking to the point where you would stick to exactly what your religion already said, in order to avoid the danger of inventing your own religion. So it's not indicative of Feeling, only that you are not blind to your feelings and sometimes take them into account.

 

[scorpiomover]

IMHO, it corresponds with human biological systems.

First time I heard that. What is your evidence for that, though?

My own biologically-based theory of MBTI.

 

[ZenRaiden]

My own biologically-based theory of MBTI.

No you aint taking it to the grave, come and share some ideas.
Me thirsty....

 

[Old Things]

Don't see why not.

Doesn't scream confidence to me. But maybe that is me projecting.

Thoughts are run on the nervous system

Interesting! Tell me more.

I don't think any of those people would say that religious people are SJs, if they were reminded that African-Americans are far more likely to be religious than white Americans, and that women are far more likely to be religious than men.

Noted.

Sounds like a religious intuitive. Far more likely to take their existing religious beliefs and put a spin on it.

Spot on, I think.

Sounds more like a T.

Perhaps. Not sure how you figure more T than N though. But I am not an MBTI guru or anything so you probably know something I don't. I always considered people who have a more novel approach to be more intuitive. We call them visionaries. Don't know if I would go that far as calling myself a visionary, but I think I could merit calling myself a bit eccentric.

Yes. But that's more of a feeling that is a concern that affects your thinking. It doesn't override your thinking to the point where you would stick to exactly what your religion already said, in order to avoid the danger of inventing your own religion. So it's not indicative of Feeling, only that you are not blind to your feelings and sometimes take them into account.

It also overlaps with my experiences. Some of the weirdest takes I have are based on what I have experienced.

 

[Hourglass]

The ego, superego, and id are all theoreticized to attempt to create a sense of psychological balance within the individual.

These are all unique to each individual, so what might be apparent in one observation of ego in an INTP versus INTJ is not likely due to the personality type in itself but the various forces of personal development the individual had gone through, though perhaps there is a sliver of relevance.

While I find the entire concepts of ego, id, and superego a vast oversimplification of how humans exist on a subconscious, conscious and unconscious level and how one is anticipated to be affected over the longitude of one’s lifetime or in anticipatory behavior, I will still entertain this for the sake of exploration:

So, to speak more to the differences in how the INTP and INTJ personality types appear to differ generally through the ego, and to engage in the topic, it would seem that the differences would be in what is being sought after.

If we think about an example such as using internet search, we can then compare INTP vs INTJ approaches via ego:

Comparisons:

INTP: I imagine that (having an INTP close friend growing up and having been surrounded by INTPs in higher education) an INTP might explore a searched topic in depth yet be unafraid to tap into a topic or set of systems that are not required to be of a linear goal or purpose related to the previously searched topic because the freedom of exploration is how information gets absorbed to make more connections between more variables, and a eureka moment is a very hyper-unique discovery out of that liberation of exploration. This is why INTPs are known for many inventions (inventions that are actually inventive). Now the id might see something that is clearly not in the realm of logical value to the topics being searched for and drive impulse to absorb it but the superego stops the id impulse to then form an “ego decision” in order to more efficiently handle the quest or quests for information or for the system being created to more optimally exist in the mind or in the theoretical framework being built.

INTJ: (I am likely to fit most closely with the INTJ MBTI though have also observed certain INTJs of late in my own surroundings) Perhaps, in the comparable internet search engine case, an INTJ might search the same kind of topic or kinds of topics through many lens over and over again - a stream of topics deemed to contribute to resolving for something that may be of practical yet universal application in nature - and a eureka moment will not happen from information discovery or synthesis in itself but rather the later application of the information that concludes a process and enables or streamlines a new or better opportunity or pathway. The “id” in this case uncovered way too many “opportunities” and the superego needs to suppress and pick one opportunity in order for the ego to make the most worthwhile decision moving forward because there are many bodies of impact being balanced and rebalanced. But the gratification sometimes won’t come until many, many steps later when the picture lives in reality and so the superego has to tell the id to be more realistic with ambitions and learn to be content with a more nearer term resolution.

While I am nothing like Elon Musk and most INTJs are probably very different from Musk, I can’t help but bring him up as a decent example of an INTJ who exemplifies this inability to contain his pursuit of enterprising opportunities not for the sake of enterprise but for the sake of continuously developing similar intellectual growth that INTPs also pursue in each moment. (If we theorize under the whole concept of ego id and superego, he has probably had his superego suppress his id desires to pursue his ambitions many times. And that is the answer to how INTJ ego might show up in reality.)

 

[ZenRaiden]

I have had some thoughts, but I think main reason why INTP and INTJ are unique and quite brilliant in today's world is they are concept and symbol thinkers.
Our schools, and namely colleges and universities or any advanced specialty today require the mind that can handle more information.
Out of all types INTJ and INTP are the two types who love both facts, reality and intellectual pursuits on their own merit, but also love symbols, concepts and analysis.
One reality both types seem to struggle is with human relations.
Which does not surprise me as these types are strongest in area that is the exact polar opposite of human intuitions and relating to human type thinking as well as different parameters for language towards relating to people.

I believe the biggest problem ever for these two types is relating to religion and politics. Because of the autistic traits that is too much honesty and too much naivety and also very little understanding of human nature.

STEM for these types is easy, but for INTJs it can get too narrow of scope, and for INTPs it can get too suffocating to be one trick pony.

For both types their intellect is their greatest asset, but also due to modern day people skill requirements their greatest weakness.

Both types are also painfully unaware or painfully aware of their weakness.
INTPs are doormats with happy disposition often if pushed explode into volcanoes.
INTJs are bulldozers that neglect other peoples feelings at times and often come off as emotionless and scary.
Both types tend to be children trapped in big brains.

I think INTPs can get trapped in their maze brains.
INTJs can get trapped in their forward visions.

“ego decision” in order to more efficiently handle the quest or quests for information or for the system being created to more optimally exist in the mind or in the theoretical framework being built.

Yeah, for me its a big problem. Sometimes just learning little bit is not possible, because I can get stuck in idea that I have to have a framework to understand.
Its like I am not even myself if I don't. Its highly impractical in school and job, because mostly people are just expected to learn and use or learn and forget information once useless. Don't even get me started on the fact when I want to know something, ask something someone and people tell me to not care or think about it.

 

[Hourglass]

too narrow of scope

I feel this daily, actually, that my core existence even feels as if it is too narrow in scope.

I suppose in the “ego” sense, my “id” says I should be branching out, my “superego” says that based on societal expectations and my own expectations that I should not “risk” branching out.

One would think that and the ego in this case would then settle on a sort of midpoint decision between supero and id.

As for me (and perhaps others who are pulled by “rules” or the influence of institutional or societal righteousness and standards) the weight of power that the “superego” has over my “id” feels so strong and disproportionate that there is moment to moment suppression of impulses to create or act.

The “superego” tells me to be proper.

 

[Black Rose]

I had a realization today when talking to my ISFP roommate about Ni. They are always thinking about what to do next, and what others will do. They are always doing.

Ti is contextual and conditional
Fe is detached and dispassioned

Fi is strong values and convictions
Te is what can be done

Ni is what happens next anticipatory
Se is sensuality and perceptual resolution

Si is bodily integrity instinct
Ne is all connected possibility

The INTP ego is:

Ti is contextual and conditional
Ne is all connected possibility
Si is bodily integrity instinct
Fe is detached and dispassioned

The INTJ ego is:

Ni is what happens next anticipatory
Te is what can be done
Fi is strong values and convictions
Se is sensuality and perceptual resolution

As an INFP

Fi is strong values and convictions
Ne is all connected possibility
Si is bodily integrity instinct
Te is what can be done

INTPs need to lay out all things on the table. They cannot exclude any contingencies, they must think of every possible failure point symmetrically.

INTJ just knows what happens next and how to do what needs to be done. That is why they snake around obstacles at a fast pace monte carlo style.

INFP feels things in ways that make it imperative that what they do is in alignment with a core truth. This bad, that good. And everything must be categorized this way in a heaped-up feeling search space. And they know what to do and what to avoid.

 

[ZenRaiden]

too narrow of scope

I feel this daily, actually, that my core existence even feels as if it is too narrow in scope.

I suppose in the “ego” sense, my “id” says I should be branching out, my “superego” says that based on societal expectations and my own expectations that I should not “risk” branching out.

One would think that and the ego in this case would then settle on a sort of midpoint decision between supero and id.

As for me (and perhaps others who are pulled by “rules” or the influence of institutional or societal righteousness and standards) the weight of power that the “superego” has over my “id” feels so strong and disproportionate that there is moment to moment suppression of impulses to create or act.

The “superego” tells me to be proper.

I think this is really just our left hemisphere being cramped by life, because that is where the fear is, but our right hemisphere which is very different has more run time as opposed to other types.
I dealt with this as a child by being a ultra dreamer. Like 99 percent of my day was spent in my head dreaming. I had those moments where I saw the universe in the spoon.
Totaled my real life tho.

 

[Hourglass]

They are always doing.

Re: ISFP - Someone I used to speak more with that visited me recently is ISFP and I have observed that she does a lot of things surrounding care for routine - it seems the little things regarding essentials to her mean so much - and reminds me of what happiness can mean for one person to the next.

She is happy and satisfied with seeing a plant that is healthy or eating something healthy. I view these kinds of things as generally good things but nothing that would satisfy me enough that I could feel some sense of fulfillment.

Meanwhile, I can sometimes unintentionally neglect my eating habits and subsist on coffee and then forget to eat anything because during these hours I’m working or figuring something out (in solitude). This to her would raise a strong amount of judgment and concern whereas to me it doesn’t matter because I am still actively solving for things that are on a longer view of planning. I think years ahead, sometimes decades ahead, very often.

She makes it a point to expresses tangible immediate care for others to such a great extent. Her questions are on the exact here-and-now, so when I speak to her it is always an interesting feeling to flip my brain to talk about what exactly in front of me.

But I cannot converse with her for a very long time unfortunately these days because what happens is a tradeoff between A. discussing things I can’t physically or mentally afford to attend to due to lack of time or energy and needing to say something agreeable to her, versus B. Excusing myself to be able to use time towards being proactive or thinking in a way that becomes mentally expansive or useful.

It feels inconsiderate to say it but in reality it takes a lot of consideration and we do arrive at a mutually beneficial circumstance, or at least I hope to part the conversation knowing I have been generous to her in some form as much as I can.

This is a very specific person and so not sure if my observation necessarily applies to ISFPs in general.

imperative that what they do is in alignment with a core truth

I relate to this as well. If I remember correctly Fi is the 3rd function for INTJs

 

[Hourglass]

too narrow of scope

I feel this daily, actually, that my core existence even feels as if it is too narrow in scope.

I suppose in the “ego” sense, my “id” says I should be branching out, my “superego” says that based on societal expectations and my own expectations that I should not “risk” branching out.

One would think that and the ego in this case would then settle on a sort of midpoint decision between supero and id.

As for me (and perhaps others who are pulled by “rules” or the influence of institutional or societal righteousness and standards) the weight of power that the “superego” has over my “id” feels so strong and disproportionate that there is moment to moment suppression of impulses to create or act.

The “superego” tells me to be proper.

I think this is really just our left hemisphere being cramped by life, because that is where the fear is, but our right hemisphere which is very different has more run time as opposed to other types.
I dealt with this as a child by being a ultra dreamer. Like 99 percent of my day was spent in my head dreaming. I had those moments where I saw the universe in the spoon.
Totaled my real life tho.

The dreamer thing happened to me as a child and adolescent as well.

I like to think that when I retire, dreaming is the sort of thing I’d find joy in. It feels somewhat of a shame however that the act of “dreaming” is suppressed as we age, only to be saved for when the act of “dreaming” is not as practical or useful.

 

[ZenRaiden]

The dreamer thing happened to me as a child and adolescent as well.

I like to think that when I retire, dreaming is the sort of thing I’d find joy in. It feels somewhat of a shame however that the act of “dreaming” is suppressed as we age, only to be saved for when the act of “dreaming” is not as practical or useful.

Well no worries, according to newest research we are becoming a right hemisphere society. Those who unlearn left hemisphere thinking and commit more to their right hemisphere thinking will make more money, and be happier and more successful.
Mostly because there is huge societal demand. Most of what our left hemisphere is doing ergo the technical smart boring routine stuff will be done by computers with AI.
Unless of course there will be no machines with hands the trade skills and handy work will be valued by society still.

 

[Hourglass]

right hemisphere thinking

I actually was not sure the brain was compartmentalized in such a way i.e. right v left. Is this definite?

 

[Hourglass]

Most of what our left hemisphere is doing ergo the technical smart boring routine stuff will be done by computers with AI.

What about conversational AI?

 

[Black Rose]

Someone I used to speak more with that visited me recently is ISFP and I have observed that she does a lot of things surrounding care for routine

I confuse xSxP types.

Yes, this makes sense. If they are ESTP that makes sense.

I thought I was INTJ so this rotates my whole perspective on things.

Se - resolution
Ti - contextual
Fe - detachment
Ni - prediction

Fi - attachment
Ne - possibility
Si - instinctual
Te - situational

 

[Black Rose]

I think that the ego begins with the judgment functions.

Fi and Fe are in the amygdala.

Ti and Te are in the frontal lobes attached to the amygdala.

 

[Black Rose]

 

[ZenRaiden]

I actually was not sure the brain was compartmentalized in such a way i.e. right v left. Is this definite?

Its more complicated, but left and right hemisphere difference is pretty solid.
The way our brain function can be understood partly through architecture.

 

[scorpiomover]

Don't see why not.

Doesn't scream confidence to me. But maybe that is me projecting.

I'd have to examine your posts in detail, to be certain.

Thoughts are run on the nervous system

Interesting! Tell me more.

I'll have to make a thread on it.

Sounds more like a T.

Perhaps. Not sure how you figure more T than N though. But I am not an MBTI guru or anything so you probably know something I don't. I always considered people who have a more novel approach to be more intuitive. We call them visionaries. Don't know if I would go that far as calling myself a visionary, but I think I could merit calling myself a bit eccentric.

Visionaires have visions of a better world, that they would like this world to become.

Thinkers say "If A happens, then B happens, and B would make the world better. Therefore, I/we would be better off by doing A."

Yes. But that's more of a feeling that is a concern that affects your thinking. It doesn't override your thinking to the point where you would stick to exactly what your religion already said, in order to avoid the danger of inventing your own religion. So it's not indicative of Feeling, only that you are not blind to your feelings and sometimes take them into account.

It also overlaps with my experiences. Some of the weirdest takes I have are based on what I have experienced.

Of course. But that is because you said to yourself something like this: "If A happens, then B must be true. Everyone, especially those supposed to know, say that B is false, and that thus, A wouldn't happen. Guess what? A just happened. Despite that everyone says it can't happen, and the experts say it can't happen, I saw it happen. So the only possibility is that B must be true.

That's pure Ti.

That's actually what Ti is used for. The brain has Te, and Te is very good at quickly finding profitable solutions. But it's not very good at working out which ones are Black Swans, solutions that look profitable, but actually get terrible after a while. It's also not very good at spotting Golden Geese, solutions that look terrible at first glance, but have the potential to make you billions.

Ti spots the Black Swans, and eliminates them for Te, making each of Te's actions far more profitable. Ti also is much better at spotting the Golden Geese, and pointing their non-obvious huge benefits out to Te.

 

[birdsnestfern]

When I think of a 'whole' person, its someone who uses both sides, you can be well rounded and use all or most of the brains functions together or depending on the application, use what fits the situation.

Where ever your weaknesses are, you have the furthest to go, ie, they can become area where you shine the most if you chose to see weakness as areas to improve the most on and work on it.

 

[Old Things]

I'd have to examine your posts in detail, to be certain.

Reasonable.

I'll have to make a thread on it.

Please do!

Visionaires have visions of a better world, that they would like this world to become.

Thinkers say "If A happens, then B happens, and B would make the world better. Therefore, I/we would be better off by doing A."

Of course. But that is because you said to yourself something like this: "If A happens, then B must be true. Everyone, especially those supposed to know, say that B is false, and that thus, A wouldn't happen. Guess what? A just happened. Despite that everyone says it can't happen, and the experts say it can't happen, I saw it happen. So the only possibility is that B must be true.

That's pure Ti.

That's actually what Ti is used for. The brain has Te, and Te is very good at quickly finding profitable solutions. But it's not very good at working out which ones are Black Swans, solutions that look profitable, but actually get terrible after a while. It's also not very good at spotting Golden Geese, solutions that look terrible at first glance, but have the potential to make you billions.

Ti spots the Black Swans, and eliminates them for Te, making each of Te's actions far more profitable. Ti also is much better at spotting the Golden Geese, and pointing their non-obvious huge benefits out to Te.

Sounds more or less like a deduction of possibilities by eliminating "What cannot be possible" and making affirmations based on "What remains possible."

Never thought of myself as the deductive type.

 

[ZenRaiden]

What about conversational AI?

I think that will be possible.