does the universe have a blank state

[sushi]

does the universe have a blank state before everything existed?

 

[onesteptwostep]

Depends on whether you want to approach the question rationally or empirically.

Rationally we could use ancient models preconceived by religions, or talk about cosmic ontologies or models that begin with or begin from, the self.

If not, we can talk about empirical models that are based on theoretical scientifc laws and the theories about the pre-genesis of existence, of which there are multiple competiting accounts.

I guess some rational course may weave in and inform the empirical, but the empiricists (the theoretical scientists who work on this kind of stuff) tend to ignore the rationalists (whether they be philosophers or other theoretical physicists) and seem to go along to make huge colliders to figure this stuff out anyway, because they're just huge nerds and their livelihoods depend on this vastly complicated maths and materials calibrating.

Me being more affliated with the rationalist side however, I would like to suggest that maybe, the material world is as divisible as the numbers are. We can divide 1 into 0.5, as much as we are able to divide a hydrogen atom into electrons, protons and neutrons. From here, we divide again, going into 0.25 from 0.5, then from electrons, protons and neutrons, we go into quarks, leptons and bosons.

In the material world, a lot of energy has to be expended to realize these smaller particles. But let's say we had more energy, and more money to get better technology to go deeper.

What is in the next substratum after quarks, leptons and bosons? Will we have ever the amount of resources necessary to reach to new quantum levels?

But herein lies the ethical, if not moral question: if we had the technology and wealth, wouldn't it be better to use it on more pressing needs in the world? I would assume the amount of technology and energy to get to the next quantum level will be exponentially higher.

There will be a time and realization that the material world is as much of a chasm as the world of numbers is. The problem and limit will be the amount of energy that it takes to realize those levels.

If universe was infinite, there would theoretically be no problem in searching for such answers. But as some physicists would say, the universe has a limit, per the background radiation of the universe, radiation that to them, was from the big bang, delineating our finitude.

So empirically, if we use some imagination, we come at the limits of empiricality.

So to come back to the question, does the universe has a blank state? Perhaps searching for an empirical answer is categorically meaningless. In the end, no theory or explanation of the world matters when one dies. In finality, what will matter is what you have left behind. Did you love enough, did you care enough, did you seek with your heart, soul and indomitable will what you felt was truly right, before your maker, your kin, and your own soul? That is what that matters.

 

[dr froyd]

no, i think that is the human brain trying to reason about what "exists" before anything exists. All the human brain can come up with is something like a blank canvas before one starts painting on it.

if you really think about, absolutely nothing makes sense if the universe came out of nothing – no space, no time, no cause and effect, nothing to cause the existence of anything.

which means that either we are incapable of understanding non-existence of the universe, or existence is "eternal" and we are incapable of reasoning about eternal-ness i.e. outside of a time dimension.

 

[Black Rose]

Perhaps searching for an empirical answer is categorically meaningless. In the end, no theory or explanation of the world matters when one dies. In finality, what will matter is what you have left behind.

People eat sleep and defecate. What matters in life is not a job in the capitalist job market or watching Netflix when you get home from that meaningless job. In the 90s they had dozens and dozens of movies about the meaninglessness of capitalism. That is why I have no job. Because I am not an ant. But life is still meaningless because I have questions that cannot be answered. Because parts of my brain are intellectually disabled to the degree I cannot make progress in what I want to do with my life. Maybe you think drinking beer and watching football will satisfy your life but that is not what most thinkers believe will satisfy their lives. The real problem is that life is meaningless and that is why only capitalism works and not communism.

It is why we spend money on advertisements because football and beer satisfy life for most people. Everyone cannot be a scientist and everyone needs to work. The world leaders understand that the people are not going to work for the betterment of society otherwise they would collectively have implemented a just system years ago ON THERE OWN. The system is corrupt only because people are stupid. They enjoy beer and football and not helping the poor. That is why we spend the money on science instead because idiots don't want to help each other. It wastes money to help people that elect corrupt stupid idiot leaders. So the gov was made to submit to the scientist instead because they are the ones who create technology. Technology creates jobs for the beer football people.

So why is it we spend money on science? because that is where the jobs come from. Society as a whole is structured to get people who can work to work because that's all they can do. They cannot help each other. Communism always fails. The worker's moral constitution is not made to organize in that way or they would and all problems would be solved. What needs to be done is to increase IQ beyond 130 for every human being then communism will work. Otherwise, people are too stupid for that kind of system. People do not help themselves. The government as it is, is proof of that. you get the government the people want always.

Quality of government = quality of the people = failed communism always

 

[scorpiomover]

In the 90s they had dozens and dozens of movies about the meaninglessness of capitalism. That is why I have no job. Because I am not an ant.

Yes. But the 90s was also when the anti-capitalist, socialist, left-wing removed socialism from their manifesto. So quite clearly, it was when the world became uber-capitalist. So why did both things happen at the same time?

Because those movies encouraged lots of moral people like yourself to not try to succeed in the world, and consequently, there were no moral people in any positions of power, and consequently, there was no-one to stop the fat-cat capitalists from taking over.

That's why you're seeing your civilisation crumbling. The left-wing and the right-wing work for the capitalists now.

The real problem is that life is meaningless and that is why only capitalism works and not communism.

If life is meaningless, then how can anything give you meaning?

It is why we spend money on advertisements because football and beer satisfy life for most people.

In the Fall of the Roman Empire, the citizens of Rome were given free bread and got to watch Gladiatorial games for free. "Bread and circuses", they called it, to pacify the masses. You have "beer and football" instead of "bread and circuses".

The world leaders understand that the people are not going to work for the betterment of society otherwise they would collectively have implemented a just system years ago ON THERE OWN. That is why we spend the money on science instead because idiots don't want to help each other. It wastes money to help people that elect corrupt stupid idiot leaders. So the gov was made to submit to the scientist instead because they are the ones who create technology. Technology creates jobs for the beer football people.

So why is it we spend money on science? because that is where the jobs come from.

In that case, then since people are not going to work for the betterment of society, and science makes for the betterment of society, then no-one would work to have money spent on science. So how can you say that the government submits to scientists, when that would mean that people work to have their taxes spent on science, and you say that cannot happen?

So either the money is NOT spent on science (but you are told it is, because that makes you feel good about where your taxes are going), OR people will work for the betterment of society.

What about if both were true, but their leaders are not interested in helping better the world, because if we all lived in a utopia, we wouldn't need the POTUS and Congress anymore, and then they'd lose all their power and money?

What needs to be done is to increase IQ beyond 130 for every human being then communism will work.

Not very hard. You just have to give them good teachers who made the subjects interesting. Then they'll study them day and night, and become that smart in no time.

 

[Black Rose]

moved:

https://www.intpforum.com/threads/utopia.29395/

 

[sushi]

Perhaps searching for an empirical answer is categorically meaningless. In the end, no theory or explanation of the world matters when one dies. In finality, what will matter is what you have left behind.

People eat sleep and defecate. What matters in life is not a job in the capitalist job market or watching Netflix when you get home from that meaningless job. In the 90s they had dozens and dozens of movies about the meaninglessness of capitalism. That is why I have no job. Because I am not an ant. But life is still meaningless because I have questions that cannot be answered. Because parts of my brain are intellectually disabled to the degree I cannot make progress in what I want to do with my life. Maybe you think drinking beer and watching football will satisfy your life but that is not what most thinkers believe will satisfy their lives. The real problem is that life is meaningless and that is why only capitalism works and not communism.

It is why we spend money on advertisements because football and beer satisfy life for most people. Everyone cannot be a scientist and everyone needs to work. The world leaders understand that the people are not going to work for the betterment of society otherwise they would collectively have implemented a just system years ago ON THERE OWN. The system is corrupt only because people are stupid. They enjoy beer and football and not helping the poor. That is why we spend the money on science instead because idiots don't want to help each other. It wastes money to help people that elect corrupt stupid idiot leaders. So the gov was made to submit to the scientist instead because they are the ones who create technology. Technology creates jobs for the beer football people.

So why is it we spend money on science? because that is where the jobs come from. Society as a whole is structured to get people who can work to work because that's all they can do. They cannot help each other. Communism always fails. The worker's moral constitution is not made to organize in that way or they would and all problems would be solved. What needs to be done is to increase IQ beyond 130 for every human being then communism will work. Otherwise, people are too stupid for that kind of system. People do not help themselves. The government as it is, is proof of that. you get the government the people want always.

Quality of government = quality of the people = failed communism always

i appreciate your input but why are you going into politics

its an astrophyiscs concept, the big bang is similar to a supernova.

 

[Black Rose]

the big bang is similar to a supernova.

A supernova happens because a star collapses into itself

what collapsed to make the big bang?

 

[scorpiomover]

does the universe have a blank state before everything existed?

No-one seems to know what things were like before existence. Kind of a contradiction in terms, though. Before existence, there would be nothing to say what the universe was like in the first place.

 

[Black Rose]

does the universe have a blank state before everything existed?

No-one seems to know what things were like before existence. Kind of a contradiction in terms, though. Before existence, there would be nothing to say what the universe was like in the first place.

I have a rock on my desk.

What would be necessary for it to stop existing?

all the energy and stuff?

 

[Hourglass]

No

 

[ZenRaiden]

The real problem is that life is meaningless and that is why only capitalism works and not communism.

No you can be a communist and live in a capitalist world and live like a communist.
Anarchist live like that.
Anarchists are usually small business owners, and they can live in communities.
There is nothing inherently undo-able about communism.
There are currently people in Cuba who are communist, vietnam and China.
Cuba Vietnam and China are representations of state communism, that function just fine. Just because they don't have a share in stock market does not make them helpless economies.
Mind you Cuba is doing fine despite its major drawbacks like embargo that lasted over 50 years, and cost its economy billions of dollars. People there just sit around and live just fine, smoke cigs and dance to music. Some work in tourists sector.
Before communism Cuba was a slave hellscape. No wonder they went full terrorist on occupants.
Don't forget confirmation bias is the most common bias.

does the universe have a blank state before everything existed?

Blank state has many implications, for one, it assumes that there is something to be filled. If universe is going to be filled it means it has to be a certain way prepared to be filled. This state of full must be preceded by empty.

 

[Black Rose]

No you can be a communist and live in a capitalist world and live like a communist.

are you talking about primitiveism and or hippie communes?

yea, sure you can live off-grid but once you spend money acquiring resources (capital) you then are under the system of economics and what I meant was that economics is only able to work if you have money and capital and do not centralize. There is no system except technocracies where money is not required to function on a large scale. How many technocracies do you see in the world? The moon and Mars will be technocracies believe.

 

[ZenRaiden]

are you talking about primitiveism and or hippie communes?

None of the two.
For starters you don't have to go into life long dept.
Second you might want to produce a valuable commodity.
Then you can become small business owner, and trade that commodity with anyone else, commie or not.
And yes there are commie communities. I am not much into cults though.

 

[ZenRaiden]

sure you can live off-grid

I was not talking living off a grid. If you pay taxes, why live off grid?

 

[Hourglass]

The concept of “nothing” was defined by a human being in the same way the concept of any other word was conceived and then used over time

The lack of a thing does not always predict or indicate a before or after

And so the concept of nothing being present before we existed seems unlikely

What is viewed as nothing can be something or unknown

What appears blank can actually be filled in totality, or it can be a set of boundless or infinite changing dimensions

Perhaps existence can appear blank but is not actually in a blank state

 

[PiedPiper]

no, i think that is the human brain trying to reason about what "exists" before anything exists. All the human brain can come up with is something like a blank canvas before one starts painting on it.

if you really think about, absolutely nothing makes sense if the universe came out of nothing – no space, no time, no cause and effect, nothing to cause the existence of anything.

which means that either we are incapable of understanding non-existence of the universe, or existence is "eternal" and we are incapable of reasoning about eternal-ness i.e. outside of a time dimension.

Or perhaps all of what exists is a dream. A shared dream, calculated into the immeasurable amount of possibilities of more possibilities on top of possibilities. If everyone woke up and realized we are all of the same source consciousness. Everything and nothing. As above so below. Yin and yang. Conscious and subconscious. Awake while you're asleep and asleep while you're awake. Eternal, because of there being no end to possibilities.