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Do you like head games?

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Excerpt from the Wikipedia article "Power (social and political)"

People use power more than rewards, threats, and information to influence people. In everyday situations people use a variety of power tactics to push or prompt people into particular action. There are plenty of examples of power tactics that are quite common and employed every day. Some of these tactics include bullying, collaboration, complaining, criticizing, demanding, disengaging, evading, humor, inspiring, manipulating, negotiating, socializing, and supplicating. These power tactics can be classified along three different dimensions: softness, rationality, and laterality.


Soft and hard

Soft tactics take advantage of the relationship between person and the target. They are more indirect and interpersonal (e.g., collaboration, socializing). Conversely, hard tactics are harsh, forceful, direct, and rely on concrete outcomes. However, they are not more powerful than soft tactics. In many circumstances, fear of social exclusion can be a much stronger motivator than some kind of physical punishment.


Rational and nonrational

Rational tactics of influence make use of reasoning, logic, and sound judgment, whereas nonrational tactics rely on emotionality and misinformation. Examples of each include bargaining and persuasion, and evasion and put downs, respectively.​
Unilateral and bilateral

Bilateral tactics, such as collaboration and negotiation, involve reciprocity on the part of both the person influencing and their target. Unilateral tactics, on the other hand, are enacted without any participation on the part of the target. These tactics include disengagement and fait accompli.​

People tend to vary in their use of power tactics, with different types of people opting for different tactics. For instance, interpersonally oriented people tend to use soft and rational tactics. Machiavellians, however, tend to use nonrational tactics. Moreover, extraverts use a greater variety of power tactics than do introverts. Further, men tend to use bilateral and direct tactics, whereas women tend to use unilateral and indirect tactics. People will also choose different tactics based on the group situation, and based on who they are trying to influence. People also tend to shift from soft to hard tactics when they face resistance.
Random additional commentary:

I don't how Socratic rhetoric is lumped into this taxonomy of power...

Power without authority:
Power with ascribed authority:
Power with achieved authority:

Note the discernible patterns. Which is more evolutionarily stable?
 

Base groove

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I do not think Bass groove's definition would apply to an internet forum so much because on the subject of what is "true," truth remains the same no matter who says what about what. It is not the same as making a decision so much.

Whenever someone lets another "dominate" him/her, I believe it is their own projections that are causing this feeling--even if it the motive of the other party.

If you are referring to the wiki excerpt, then I disagree. I posted that because it seemed to me like 80-90 per cent is likely demonstrable on a forum. I will look it over again for specific examples to use. FYI, that section is under the heading "Tactics".

Can anything good come from having power with no end goal? Does it exist in the same form under these conditions? This is where the pointlessness of mind games comes in, I guess, and earlier posters touched on this, is they're likely an inefficient waste of time.
 

Milo

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If you are referring to the wiki excerpt, then I disagree. I posted that because it seemed to me like 80-90 per cent is likely demonstrable on a forum. I will look it over again for specific examples to use. FYI, that section is under the heading "Tactics".

Can anything good come from having power with no end goal? Does it exist in the same form under these conditions? This is where the pointlessness of mind games comes in, I guess, and earlier posters touched on this, is they're likely an inefficient waste of time.

I guess since I understand those things at a fundamental level, I'm able to work my way around them in a second-natured kind of way. I hardly let fallacy go by me if I have an agenda to attend to--perhaps because I do not rely solely on the conversation to get what I want. The group agreeing on something does not effect my own judgement on the subject matter.

But, I do think those are tactics better served in face-to-face conversation, as resources and real decisions are at stake.
 
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This is where the pointlessness of mind games comes in, I guess, and earlier posters touched on this, is they're likely an inefficient waste of time.
The purpose of head games, even online, is to develop theoretical frameworks through which to view the world. Theoretical frameworks are universally transferable.

(This isn't the right phrasing, but you know what I mean).
 

Ex-User (9086)

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The purpose of head games, even online, is to develop theoretical frameworks through which to view the world. Theoretical frameworks are universally transferable.

(This isn't the right phrasing, but you know what I mean).
So that is your purpose for playing games?

It is probable that there are some individuals that would have this goal, however there are many different motivations to this that could replace it.
 
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So that is your purpose for playing games?

It is probable that there are some individuals that would have this goal, however there are many different motivations to this that could replace it.
A structure is completely separate from how/why a structure its used. Structures are like tools. The more structures one has access to, the more of their motivations they can put into action.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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A structure is completely separate from how/why a structure its used. Structures are like tools. The more structures one has access to, the more of their motivations they can put into action.
Yes, however that would imply some definite or universal purpose that is an outcome of even unaware uses.

I would say that what you described is a natural result of social interaction.
 
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Yes, however that would imply some definite or universal purpose that is an outcome of even unaware uses.

I would say that what you described is a natural result of social interaction.
Both are true.
 

Pyropyro

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Hmm... if I read the thread right, head games in this context is about manipulating people and garner power by disabling the competition. Well I like it depending on the context and I'll be narrowing my views on online forum. (THD got some delicious topic going on about power, perhaps it would be better suited on its own thread?)

If we're talking about a game type where both or multiple participants know that they're playing then I'm okay with that. It's like why I'm okay with sanctioned human bloodsports compared to unwarranted violence on the street. The mental blood that get shed (probably beliefs or egos) makes the participants hunger to become stronger whether they won or lost.

If we're talking about games where only one is playing then I find it distasteful since you are harming both parties (I'm in the context of the xNTP by the way). Obviously, the unaware one loses time and probably mental resources that are better off spent in growth. Second the "aware" one is also weakened since no matter the outcome is, they "win" in their minds. This is kind of sad since he or she is tricking their own mind to accept this token Ne victory from the unaware person when in reality they're just journeying further down their personal Ti-Si spiral.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Hmm... if I read the thread right, head games in this context is about manipulating people and garner power by disabling the competition. Well I like it depending on the context and I'll be narrowing my views on online forum. (THD got some delicious topic going on about power, perhaps it would be better suited on its own thread?)

If we're talking about games where only one is playing then I find it distasteful since you are harming both parties (I'm in the context of the xNTP by the way). Obviously, the unaware one loses time and probably mental resources that are better off spent in growth. Second the "aware" one is also weakened since no matter the outcome is, they "win" in their minds. This is kind of sad since he or she is tricking their own mind to accept this token Ne victory from the unaware person when in reality they're just journeying further down their personal Ti-Si spiral.
What if there is only one player. Others are unaware of the manipulation and as a result this player wins many resources or information from the unaware.
 

Pyropyro

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What if there is only one player. Others are unaware of the manipulation and as a result this player wins many resources or information from the unaware.

That's actually possible but we're already moving out of my "winning" at internet forums context.

I think your example is more about research, surveillance and probably even casing. Well in that context, the head games part is probably just a harmless fantasy in the player's mind (he's out for info after all rather than the drama or ego points and the head game is probably something to pass the time with). The win there is getting info and/or resources.
 
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What if there is only one player. Others are unaware of the manipulation and as a result this player wins many resources or information from the unaware.
Players are not truly isolated, only perceptually isolated. The fox doesn't factor the availability of the grass into his decision-making process when he eats a rabbit, yet the grass undeniably affects him. The same is true for more isolated relations. The eagle doesn't think very much about grass when it eats the fox either. But not everyone is a fox, rabbit, or eagle. Some are more intelligent and capable of thinking in multiple steps and conceiving causality.

This is where I argue for what has traditionally been viewed as a social darwinist perspective. If, within a single species, some individuals cannot perceive to a high degree, then evolution dictates that those individuals should decline in number due to the selective pressure of increased perception demand.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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That's actually possible but we're already moving out of my "winning" at internet forums context.

I think your example is more about research, surveillance and probably even casing. Well in that context, the head games part is probably just a harmless fantasy in the player's mind (he's out for info after all rather than the drama or ego points and the head game is probably something to pass the time with). The win there is getting info and/or resources.
I understand that you are not willing to relate this to your opinion or any real world connections.

I somehow saw Base Groove and THD explain this as a viable strategy in any scenario. Explain, because this seemed to me like self-affirmation, maybe it is.

Much of the social interactions is guided by the aware of own intent, unaware of ones intent dichtomy.

Resources can be material, but it also implies humans as resources or their time.
Players are not truly isolated, only perceptually isolated. The fox doesn't factor the availability of the grass into his decision-making process when he eats a rabbit, yet the grass undeniably affects him. The same is true for more isolated relations. The eagle doesn't think very much about grass when it eats the fox either. But not everyone is a fox, rabbit, or eagle. Some are more intelligent and capable of thinking in multiple steps and conceiving causality.

This is where I argue for what has traditionally been viewed as a social darwinist perspective. If, within a single species, some individuals cannot perceive to a high degree, then evolution dictates that those individuals should decline in number due to the selective pressure of increased perception demand.
But it lies in the interest of the wolf to have others wear sheep skin. To be perceptually controlled. To be tilted.

It also lies in the interest of the wolf to have a perfect trophic cascade of grass sheep and wolves. Just enough grass to have just enough to prey on. Currently earth's capacity serves as grass limit.

As such this is more of an imposed process rather than evolutionary lack of fitness.
 

Pyropyro

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I understand that you are not willing to relate this to your opinion or any real world connections.

Not at all, as I posted earlier I want that discussion on another thread instead. There's many factors IRL so I really wish that a dedicated forum thread be established to house those issues.

I somehow saw Base Groove and THD explain this as a viable strategy in any scenario. Explain, because this seemed to me like self-affirmation, maybe it is.

Yes, I'm also looking at it at a self-affirmation point of view since that's what you'll get in arguing online. IRL on the other hand is another story. There's too many material to cover, shall we try family abuse? how about dictatorships? of espionage?

No offense, but it's just like I'm talking about shooting really well in Call of Duty and then someone asks me "What's your position about snipers IRL?"

Much of the social interactions is guided by the aware of own intent, unaware of ones intent dichtomy.
True

Resources can be material, but it also implies humans as resources or their time.
True.
 

Goku

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Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc? I would expect that NT types would report the highest levels of satisfaction/approval with these concepts, or at the very least, indifference...

Societies greatest trolls/philosophers were/are probably INTPs

It is because they are not attached to ideas

That's not to suggest that INTP equals troll; however, the best ones will likely be INTPs because the personality is best suited for it.

A person is like an emotional puzzle.

INTPs seem like they would manipulate just for fun, while INTJs would manipulate with a tangible purpose in mind.
 

Jennywocky

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Societies greatest trolls/philosophers were/are probably INTPs

It is because they are not attached to ideas

That's not to suggest that INTP equals troll; however, the best ones will likely be INTPs because the personality is best suited for it.

A person is like an emotional puzzle.

INTPs seem like they would manipulate just for fun, while INTJs would manipulate with a tangible purpose in mind.

I'd revise that a bit -- INTJs seem to have an idea of where their questioning is going. INTPs are more apt to just tug and stretch and pull to determine the actual boundaries/parameters of the object of their attention, regardless of what those happen to be... much more an exploration than a confirmation per se, I suppose.

INTPs can come off more as trolls, though. Really, it's more "playful" with a streak of seriousness in it; exploration of the idea to better understand and clarify it.
 

Cherry Cola

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You guys pigeonhole whole the entire topic and need to l2play.

Mindgames are good for your brain and for developing metacognitive skills, there is no reason why one couldn't play them in good faith for fun. Doing so sets you up with skills you'll need later in your life.

What I'm seeing in this thread is Ji-narrowmindedness, something being deemed wrong because in an ideal world it wouldn't exist, which doesn't hold up because the world isn't that ideal world.
 

Cherry Cola

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A Ji-dominant personality type being the greatest troll and not being attached to ideas? Heck no.

ENTP for greatest troll all the way.
 

Brontosaurie

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You guys pigeonhole whole the entire topic and need to l2play.

Mindgames are good for your brain and for developing metacognitive skills, there is no reason why one couldn't play them in good faith for fun. Doing so sets you up with skills you'll need later in your life.

What I'm seeing in this thread is Ji-narrowmindedness, something being deemed wrong because in an ideal world it wouldn't exist, which doesn't hold up because the world isn't that ideal world.

if it's good faith it's not a mind game. then it's just ordinary good ole being.
 

Cherry Cola

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Yes it is, mind games aren't just played to gain or prevent loss of prestige, it need not be a factor. They may be played for recreation or for learning.

I'm not entirely sure if the people responding are either being categorical in their rejection of mind games or just lack a full picture of what mind games can be.
 

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Yes it is, mind games aren't just played to gain or prevent loss of prestige, it need not be a factor. They may be played for recreation or for learning.

I'm not entirely sure if the people responding are either being categorical in their rejection of mind games or just lack a full picture of what mind games can be.
It is just a definition, one could call mind games manipulation and harmless as entertainment or puzzles. Or it could be all put into one place
 

Brontosaurie

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Yes it is, mind games aren't just played to gain or prevent loss of prestige, it need not be a factor. They may be played for recreation or for learning.

I'm not entirely sure if the people responding are either being categorical in their rejection of mind games or just lack a full picture of what mind games can be.

i think they think like me, i.e. some sort of deception and power relation is requisit for something to be a mind game.
 

Cherry Cola

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In the sense that mind games played for recreation and/or in order to learn are in fact a struggle for power so is all other human behavior tho
 

Brontosaurie

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why are you misinterpreting? >=(

mind games played for recreation and learning are no more oppressive than other behavior, that's right. i haven't contended that. what i'm saying is we're probably defining mind games differently, with a significant portion of the Ji lot excluding benign mind games simply because these are so abundant and essential that their inclusion would make for a definition far too wide, akin to, as you say, "human behavior". which isn't really what we're interested in here if my impression is correct.
 

Cherry Cola

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I'm not misinterpreting anything how am I supposed to read what you just wrote from your previous post?

And the definition of mind games is not a really an issue either, not nearly one that calls this here subtle failure on your and others part to consider the whole of the issue going by what you just wrote. In fact your arbitrary omission of parts of what the term encompasses is what is weird. I don't know what the definition issue even is, abundancy? How, what?

Consciously engaging in mind games for the heck of it isn't akin to the whole of human behavior. It is only so in the regard that is ultimately intended to increase chances of reproduction, as when lion cubs playfight.

In that regard all human behavior may be encompassed. Thus it isn't the definition that is the issue, it's the shity argument that wants to pigeonhole moral validity of a certain behavior by considering it as if though was only carried out with a particular intention and for a particular purpose -particulars which are included by necessity first on a meta-level that obliterates the need to discuss the issue at all- when it isn't so.

Edit: Seems to me like whats at work here (in the thread in general) is the Ti version of Fi touchiness.
 

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You guys pigeonhole whole the entire topic and need to l2play.

Mindgames are good for your brain and for developing metacognitive skills, there is no reason why one couldn't play them in good faith for fun.

Then it's not really a mind game, it's just honest communication.

Main Entry: mind game
Function: noun
: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate —usually used in plural <played mind games with his opponent>
 

tvrgvryen

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Yes. I find such games to be exactly what they are: games. And I like to win. I'm skeptical and manipulative by nature, and facing something that challenges my ability is exciting. Even if some riddle is meaningless, figuring that out can be enjoyable. I don't get pissed off but rather laugh it off in a laid-back manner. I find trolling to be hilarious. I don't do it myself, but watching others fall for obviously ridiculous traps is quite amusing.
 

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"Doin' it for the thrill of it, killin' it."
 

Cherry Cola

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Then it's not really a mind game, it's just honest communication.

Main Entry: mind game
Function: noun
: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate —usually used in plural <played mind games with his opponent>

Wiki definition is a bit broader. I also wonder what you would call mind games played between consenting individuals for fun and/or training if not mind games anyway, they are certainly very common anyway.
 

Brontosaurie

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well then that touchiness pertains to the definition. as an NP i feel like i'm in a kind of mind game mode all the time.

this is a personal matter, no "objective" truth claims really - but i wouldn't call something a mind game if it was friendly and benign all the way.
 

Void

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I only play mindgames when I want people to figure something out instead of me just giving the answer. This does give you some insight in how they think, which could be used to manipulate people. It also teaches them how to think more creatively/efficiently/properly (or so I like to think), and it is fun to watch.
 

Milo

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I only play mindgames when I want people to figure something out instead of me just giving the answer. This does give you some insight in how they think, which could be used to manipulate people. It also teaches them how to think more creatively/efficiently/properly (or so I like to think), and it is fun to watch.

I concur!
 

redbaron

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Wiki definition is a bit broader. I also wonder what you would call mind games played between consenting individuals for fun and/or training if not mind games anyway, they are certainly very common anyway.

Is this a good example of what you mean?

I used to coach basketball and I definitely manipulated my players in certain ways, by engaging them with certain mental challenges to help them experience first hand the usefulness of certain strategies/tactics.

I guess you could consider that mind games. But if your point here is that you think people are overlooking the benefit of activities like this, I think you're wrong. There are obviously certain ways that mind games can be useful, but the majority of human interaction does not take place in that sort of consenting player-coach relationship dynamic. In light of that, I don't see that type of interaction as a mind game in the sense that it's being talked about here - it's so far outside the norm of social interaction to be relatable.

Maybe if we were talking about sports strategy specifically I'd consider it relevant.

There's really no 'subtle failure' by anyone. I'm sure that most people can understand the benefit to certain activities like I described above, but that's really what makes pointing it out rather useless in the first place. If something is so unanimously accepted as obviously beneficial, bringing it up is like interjecting into an ecology discussion just to point out that, 'the sky appears blue on a sunny day'.
 

WoLong

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Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc?

Too lazy. All these things take effort. INTP's are not absorbed enough in social life to have the motivation to bother with these things.
 

Brontosaurie

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@redbaron: yup, seems our failure lies in our habitual avoidance of tautological small talk. :D
 

Goku

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It doesn't really matter if I like mind games or not because they are played out every day through our interactions with people.

Girls know these mind games by instinct. When they really like a guy, they act like they're not so interested so they don't lose his attention. What they're really doing is playing mind games. This is but a single simple example. Evolution demands that females play mind games, because if they showed men just how crazy they are by telling them everything that they are thinking, men would run the other way and never mate, and the species would die out. Thus, mind games is an evolutionary feature of humans.
 

Brontosaurie

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It is taken as a given and just assumed to exist.

i think a good fuck with much emotion makes a better baby. i think this recursively pro-social self-regulatory aspect of sexual selection is what sets humans apart from other animals. it is what allows our dynamic cultural complexity to form.
 

Base groove

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i think a good fuck with much emotion makes a better baby. i think this recursively pro-social self-regulatory aspect of sexual selection is what sets humans apart from other animals. it is what allows our dynamic cultural complexity to form.

I'll admit this has crossed my mind from time to time.
 

Base groove

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Why do people make dupe accounts and why are they not allowed??

To play head games, to amuse themselves, to gain knowledge or power, all the reasons we have talked about here.

Who makes duplicate accounts? Is it the INTPs predominantly who do this? I think not, not even on the INTPforum, not even if they were the majority here, which they aren't.

They (puppets) are not allowed because it's costly and wasteful of resources, because there is a slippery slope mentality. These are probably the primary reasons, but I think the true, meaningful ethical reason behind this rule is that people don't like to be manipulated; it is unfair and you are in a position where you can't play the same game.

Many users have duplicate accounts, ("ordothey"??), so obviously there is some slack to this rule, or has been in the past. I wonder then, when the precedent was set, as it is probably a rule of the "no-exception" variety nowadays, and I also wonder why the precedent was set, when it was, as obviously administrators must have been aware of the ramifications of allowing duplicates at the time the exception was made, so what changed?
 

Base groove

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Face and Lyra.

So, this thread has come full circle. Time to hit the ol' rusty nail.

That's why I started it in the first place. I want to know what Lyra is guilty of that caused such a tremor in the establishment that certain rules that were once overlooked are no longer overlooked.

Obviously your reply implies you are at least acknowledging the idea that the surface reasons of costs and fairness/slippery slope are not the true, underlying reasons that actually dictate the protocol of enforcement; the reasons are much deeper than that which can be explained by logic.
 

The Introvert

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Dupe accounts are for shmucks.

Lyra, Base Groove, Hyena, The Introvert... who are we all anyway?

People with too much time on my hands.

Dupe accounts are against the rules, because they are. Those that break the rules do so because they can; any justification otherwise is indicative of someone with more than just a rebellious attitude. Given the leniency of this place coupled with the endless opportunities for trolling and fake accounts elsewhere, I deem it fair and just for INTPf to disallow duplicate accounts.

God, I think this cold is freezing my brain...
 

Base groove

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Dupe accounts are for shmucks.

Lyra, Base Groove, Hyena, The Introvert... who are we all anyway?

People with too much time on my hands.

Dupe accounts are against the rules, because they are. Those that break the rules do so because they can; any justification otherwise is indicative of someone with more than just a rebellious attitude. Given the leniency of this place coupled with the endless opportunities for trolling and fake accounts elsewhere, I deem it fair and just for INTPf to disallow duplicate accounts.

God, I think this cold is freezing my brain...

This is all fine and well, but, you have missed the big idea of my last post,

Something has caused this, something that can't be explained completely with logic, something very human. It all has to do with head games and manipulation, and this thread has helped me get much closer to the truth about... Certain things,

Like humans and ghosts, for example. I want to know more!
 

The Introvert

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This is all fine and well, but, you have missed the big idea of my last post,

Something has caused this, something that can't be explained completely with logic, something very human. It all has to do with head games and manipulation, and this thread has helped me get much closer to the truth about... Certain things,

Like humans and ghosts, for example. I want to know more!

No, I understood your idea loud and clear. I answered with this:

"...any justification otherwise is indicative of someone with more than just a rebellious attitude."

You're way too involved with something so meaningless.
 

Base groove

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No, I understood your idea loud and clear. I answered with this:

"...any justification otherwise is indicative of someone with more than just a rebellious attitude."

You're way too involved with something so meaningless.

Oh please I'll be the judge of that.

Is it meaningless because you're not personally interested, or because you lack knowledge, or some other reason? I want to know what you mean by this.

Anyway I thought you didn't get what I was saying because you concluded with:

[paraphrase\="The Introvert"] I am in favour of blocking duplicate accounts because the opportunity for this behaviour can be sought elsewhere, so it doesn't belong here, rules are rules, and they already are lenient etc[\paraphrase]

...which led me to believe you thought I was contemplating the validity of the rule, when actually I ponder its authenticity.
 

The Introvert

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Oh please I'll be the judge of that.

Is it meaningless because you're not personally interested, or because you lack knowledge, or some other reason? I want to know what you mean by this.
It's meaningless because there's nothing there.
...which led me to believe you thought I was contemplating the validity of the rule, when actually I ponder its authenticity.
As in whether or not it's actually upheld?

I can vouch for that...
 

Base groove

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Is it meaningless because you're not personally interested, or because you lack knowledge, or some other reason?

It's meaningless because there's nothing there.


So, would it be safe to say, that you lack knowledge on the subject thus your perceptions are restricted and you claim there is "nothing there" because you simply don't see it? Don't be a fool!

My point is this: there must be a specific reason why duplicate accounts are strictly banned, something must have happened which set the new precedent, an event or series of events, that had everything to do with manipulation and head games, and is probably focused around Lyra, the queen of duplicate accounts and manipulation.

If you think it's meaningless because there is "nothing there" then I can't see eye to eye with you! There is compelling evidence that this particular rule has been singled out where it wasn't before.

It has been said before that knowledge is power ... so the pursuit of knowledge is the pursuit of power but there is a problem here, that is to say the pursuit of power is inherently corrupt and therefore so is the pursuit of knowledge. You are blissfully ignorant and apparently wish to remain this way, possibly because you are not corrupt.

What I'm really getting at, is this: INTPs make decisions based on more than just logic.
 
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