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Do you like head games?

Base groove

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mindf*ckery.
nothing else.

Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc? I would expect that NT types would report the highest levels of satisfaction/approval with these concepts, or at the very least, indifference...
 

C.Hecker88

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It goes against logic, in some ways. It could also be seen as a waste of time.

For me, it depends on the situation and the stimulus. There is not present in me a general hatred for all that confuses/annoys me.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I like constructive mind games.
I just don't have time for BS.
 

C.Hecker88

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I like constructive mind games.
I just don't have time for BS.

Exactly. Though, there can be acceptance of the annoying sort of mind games if there is need for them, or is pleasure is derived from the challenge. If there is no pleasure, or challenge, then the mind games seem useless.
 

BigApplePi

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Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc? I would expect that NT types would report the highest levels of satisfaction/approval with these concepts, or at the very least, indifference...
I spent 10 years on the Raging Bull bulletin board. At first I posted straight INTP. Got compliments from rare think-alikes. But that wasn't the rule. Anyway at some point I ventured a disagreement with an emotional POV, and that board was very heavy on emotionalizers and judgmentalists. I thought their responses irrational. At first I tried logic as rebuttal. I was heavily outnumbered. Looking back at lessons I may have yet to learn, I started making fun of them with pure logic. This made some of them furious but I kept on. I suppose you could call this "mind games" because while I could get away with reason they couldn't compete. They had their own way of self-defense.

Today I don't like this. Why? Because it isn't real. I also don't like hurting people, but explaining that would be for another time.
 

Absurdity

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Even a "constructive mind game" explicitly places the manipulator in a superior position relative to the manipulated. Unless this superiority is already established and acknowledged by all parties, it can be extremely disrespectful to engage in such an interaction.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc? I would expect that NT types would report the highest levels of satisfaction/approval with these concepts, or at the very least, indifference...
This is superficial, unconstructive and has little value.

Doing this to others means you don't have anything better to do and you indulge in shining when there is no competition.

Especially manipulation, this makes others seem disposable playthings, toys for your mind, which in fact is very immature and restricted in perspective.

Now that I think about it:
I like overcoming mind games and challenges set by others, if I wasn't forced
I don't like doing this to others and I know how negative this is
 

Base groove

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This is superficial, unconstructive and has little value.

Doing this to others means you don't have anything better to do and you indulge in shining when there is no competition.

Especially manipulation, this makes others seem disposable playthings, toys for your mind, which in fact is very immature and restricted in perspective.

Well I think you are right about the first part of the last part, but all in all I would probably return the same accusation, that of a restricted perspective,

For example I don't really agree that it means you don't have anything better to do. "This means this" is usually indicative of a restricted perspective, in my mind anyway.

So what is necessarily bad about treating others like disposable playthings, toys for your mind? I don't actually know what is harmful about it. Does it mean there is a lack of basic human respect? How would this differ from solipsism?

I also don't get why there is so little value in trying to understand the human mind? Superficial? That's only as deep as you're willing to look, I'm afraid.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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So what is necessarily bad about treating others like disposable playthings, toys for your mind? I don't actually know what is harmful about it. Does it mean there is a lack of basic human respect? How would this differ from solipsism?
There is little to be explained to the Solipsist to make one understand if a solipsist is unwilling, it is a very old trap for your mind.

The first problem is that you do this to unwilling and unaware individuals, which in fact puts you in a superior position. This is different from the situation when you have an equal challenger and you can defeat him in the best conditions.

Restricting ones freedom and ones perspective to your will is one of the worst things that could happen to someone. This means that it's capacity to overcome the problem, it's learning pool and it's perception are limited in relation to the game you have designed.

Why would I explain you that disregard for life and for freedom is also disregard for your life and your freedom? This may seem pointless and I won't even attempt, it's part of maturity or perception too.

I would rather design my artificial intelligence rather than input my design into someone else to see what happens. Designing your own model allows you for much more possibilities and understanding.
 
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Why is it that INTPs are not fond of mindfuckery, manipulation, trolling .... Etc? I would expect that NT types would report the highest levels of satisfaction/approval with these concepts, or at the very least, indifference...
I would think that they do in fact like them, but don't like being on the receiving end.
Even a "constructive mind game" explicitly places the manipulator in a superior position relative to the manipulated. Unless this superiority is already established and acknowledged by all parties, it can be extremely disrespectful to engage in such an interaction.
*Rafiki roll* That implies that the manipulator is working within the strict boundaries of the conscious.
Doing this to others means you don't have anything better to do and you indulge in shining when there is no competition.

Especially manipulation, this makes others seem disposable playthings, toys for your mind, which in fact is very immature and restricted in perspective.

Now that I think about it:
I like overcoming mind games and challenges set by others, if I wasn't forced
I don't like doing this to others and I know how negative this is
It's actually very useful for gaining information (including what one deems disrespectful) and it gives you a lot of points and angles to press. One can never predict when a given piece of information will be useful, so manipulators hoard it.
 

BigApplePi

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I suddenly am lost. What IS a "mind game"? When I kidded someone* was that an example? Is it an example because I wasn't straight with them and withheld information? As soon as I read, "manipulation", that's when I got lost. How can one manipulate unless the manipulated is willing? Does it mean outright lie? A lie is misleading information. Won't one be caught in it, or is the idea to avoid getting caught?

It reminds me of "L." He declared one thing but avoided revealing his real intentions. Come to think of it, one may not KNOW their real intentions, thus fooling themselves.

*I hate that spell checker. It doesn't measure up to mind checking and is therefore inadequate. I had put "kidded something" when I meant "kidded someone" and it didn't catch that. WTF.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Even a "constructive mind game" explicitly places the manipulator in a superior position relative to the manipulated. Unless this superiority is already established and acknowledged by all parties, it can be extremely disrespectful to engage in such an interaction.

That's not my definition.
Imagine that there are mind games to play where you don't have to manipulate anybody but yourself.
 

Base groove

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It reminds me of "L." He declared one thing but avoided revealing his real intentions. Come to think of it, one may not KNOW their real intentions, thus fooling themselves.

Thank you for catching up with the rest of the class, random INTP! :D

In all seriousness, the quote I used to start the thread was from another thread about this mysterious "L", and I became interested in this tangent and wanted to learn more.

I think you are on par with what head games actually are, right?

A circle is not a square.

Also, Solipsism is a bunch of rubbish.

One is an example of a logically sound and valid conclusion that can be proven with extreme rigour, the other is an example of a restricted perspective. So what's your point?
 

Ex-User (9086)

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It's actually very useful for gaining information (including what one deems disrespectful) and it gives you a lot of points and angles to press. One can never predict when a given piece of information will be useful, so manipulators hoard it.
There are many useful methods for gaining information, as there are many uses for the information. No reason to focus on one.

One is an example of a logically sound and valid conclusion that can be proven with extreme rigour, the other is an example of a restricted perspective. So what's your point?
Are you trying to discuss solipsism?

Can we move it to faith and spirituality then?
 
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There are many useful methods for gaining information, as there are many uses for the information. No reason to focus on one.
No reason to rule any of them out either.

For example (which I use because it's publicly available in the chatbox, for anyone with the fortitude to search it out): I mentioned that I had a romantic interest on the forum, and a guessing game ensued as to who this person may be. I'd never intended to give up the ghost to begin with, but I decided to play along with whatever the others decided to show me. A quick 2 things I learned:

1. Certain individuals possess certain algorythmic skillsets that I may find useful in the future.

2. Someone was not romantically interested in someone I had a potential romantic interest in (plan.... C? D?), and this was triangulated.

Did I expect, a priori, to learn these things? No. Did they gain anything? No. But I got a few more pieces of information to hoard. And sometimes that information can later be used to benefit them, believe it or not...
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Did I expect, a priori, to learn these things? No. Did they gain anything? No. But I got a few more pieces of information to hoard.
I think that everyone got something, not only the initiator, I for example saw your tendency/ability to play games with others, your tendency/ability to speculate, bits of awarness of each other and of their personal or impersonal standings.
No reason to rule any of them out either.
No universal reason, this goes to many things, not only ethics.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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One is an example of a logically sound and valid conclusion that can be proven with extreme rigour, the other is an example of a restricted perspective. So what's your point?

If you think solipsism thru, it is logically insane.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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If you think solipsism thru, it is logically insane.
The problem is that two valued logic is insane. In two valued logic maths is unprovable.

Just another abstract tool to help describe and connect.
 

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No :(

Not really.. But some people accuse me of doing that, however frequently. Can't say I particularly like them though. Maybe deep down inside on a more unconsciouss level I am somewhat sadistic in that manner.
 

Brontosaurie

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no. i don't believe stuff can be wrong and also right at the same time. i think that's what it boils down to.
 

Absurdity

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constructively pissing people off since ****

Pretty much.

*Rafiki roll* That implies that the manipulator is working within the strict boundaries of the conscious.

Any chance you'll spare me the Socratic back-and-forth and tell me what this means?

That's not my definition.
Imagine that there are mind games to play where you don't have to manipulate anybody but yourself.

Masturbation is rarely very fulfilling.
 
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Any chance you'll spare me the Socratic back-and-forth and tell me what this means?
Whoever is manipulated need not be aware that they are being manipulated, and no, superiority need not be established. In fact, manipulation is often disguised as a favor, or something otherwise "necessary" or beneficial. Or makes others feel superior. Just ask Eddie. The unconscious is where the true power lies.
Masturbation is rarely very fulfilling.
You should probably see a doctor about that.
[bimgx=400]http://bestviagrablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/3-1.jpg[/bimgx]
[bimgx=400]http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/552795/resized_jesus-says-meme-generator-you-see-what-i-did-there-99070d.jpg[/bimgx]
 

Milo

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I didn't get to read everyone's posts, but I find that if you can create a mind fuck situation out of a discussion, it serves to raise more questions that raise even more intelligence. I wouldn't classify it under trolling though. Trolling only serves as comedy in my mind.
 

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Because I want people to get to the point, whatever that point may be. I'm highly efficient in learning, so have zero patience for waffling and emotional fucking around. I want to extract, process and move onto the next point of interest.

Seen it all before; the novelty is gone. The 'clever' manipulators are interesting to observe though because they often don't realise how obvious they are. Certain people who take some sort of pride in thinking they are powerful adversaries or playing devil's advocate as if they are in some sort of stage act, rather than doing it to genuinely stimulate interesting discussion. I say: "meh"




:elephant:
 

Milo

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I think some of us are searching for some answer to their own lives while others are on here trying to bond with others.
 

redbaron

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Mind games are for idiots.
 

Base groove

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I think some of us are searching for some answer to their own lives while others are on here trying to bond with others.

Very insightful, this post is.

I tend towards what THD has said here, I would summarize to say knowledge is power and wilful manipulation is the expression of this power. It doesn't require consent or even for recognition of authority/superiority.

Was Lyra disrespectful to the forum, taking on the role of the manipulator/fucker of minds without consent? I will say this: I hate to be on the receiving end...
 

Thurlor

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I dislike mind-games due to their often intended uses. It can be a tool like any other.

When the intent is silly social positioning then it is just a waste of effort (because I believe social positioning is a waste of time and effort).
 

Pizzabeak

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Death to all the feelers whose sole purpose for seeking out intpf is for bonding with others!
 

Base groove

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Death to all the feelers whose sole purpose for seeking out intpf is for bonding with others!

Do you suppose that those who seek to understand themselves have the unconscious motivation to bond with others as a result??
 

Milo

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Death to all the feelers whose sole purpose for seeking out intpf is for bonding with others!

What if the bond being sought is that of a bond between one and anyone?
 

Hadoblado

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Mindgames can be fun, they can also be drudgery.

Before you play mindgames you should take a good hard look at yourself and really ask why you're doing it; you may learn something more valuable than anything you'd learn from poking around someone else's brain. I'll emphasise that just because a behaviour can be explained by the pursuit of knowledge does not mean that this is the case. The majority of serial mindfuckers are not so much interested in information as they are in dominance.
 

Pizzabeak

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Do you suppose that those who seek to understand themselves have the unconscious motivation to bond with others as a result??
So those who seek bondage are semi motivated to understand themselves & the world around them? Sounds plausible
 

Hadoblado

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Knowledge is power...

It's the ends to which that power is expressed that defines its worth. Social dominance has its purposes, but conducting oneself in such a fashion while convincing yourself you do it for other reasons is... very base?


Oh and Solmoneus I hope you've gone and proven solipsism insane in the relevant thread.
 

Milo

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Mindgames can be fun, they can also be drudgery.

Before you play mindgames you should take a good hard look at yourself and really ask why you're doing it; you may learn something more valuable than anything you'd learn from poking around someone else's brain. I'll emphasise that just because a behaviour can be explained by the pursuit of knowledge does not mean that this is the case. The majority of serial mindfuckers are not so much interested in information as they are in dominance.

I would say that my mindfucking (pending on your definition) is aimed at spreading knowledge by creating a crater of unexplored curiosity.
 
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It's the ends to which that power is expressed that defines its worth. Social dominance has its purposes, but conducting oneself in such a fashion while convincing yourself you do it for other reasons is... very base?
Nope. All power is equal, and a definition of worth based on expression or outcome is inherently subjective.

And who said anything about blue? :p
 

Hadoblado

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Nope. All power is equal, and a definition of worth based on expression or outcome is inherently subjective.

And who said anything about blue? :p

I did. It was in reference to my own post (also do you see that as blue? I see that as teal. You had better colour vision that I iirc).

All power is not equal. Yes subjective, not equal.

You can rate it ordinally by the power of one doing all that another's power can do plus more.

You can rate it by its capacity to achieve particular goals empirically.

You can rate its worth by how much it is valued by people in general.

I appreciate that power is not something subject to hard science, but asserting that all power is equal is unjustified, but also immensely impractical.
 
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I did. It was in reference to my own post (also do you see that as blue? I see that as teal. You had better colour vision that I iirc).

All power is not equal. Yes subjective, not equal.

You can rate it ordinally by the power of one doing all that another's power can do plus more.

You can rate it by its capacity to achieve particular goals empirically.

You can rate its worth by how much it is valued by people in general.

I appreciate that power is not something subject to hard science, but asserting that all power is equal is unjustified, but also immensely impractical.
I just called it blue. Teal's probably more accurate. :p

And all power is equal, just like all energy is equal. A joule is a joule. It just so happens that power isn't easily quantifiable and is described subjectively, much like we bastardize thermoeconomic value into monetary policy.

If A can do what B can do plus more, then A has more power than B. If A can accomplish goal Z more efficiently or effectively than B can, A has more power. So power = force x direction. Direction may be akin to flexibility. I personally associate force with Ni-Te and flexibility with Ne-Ti (though they shouldn't be restricted to these).
 

Hadoblado

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I think we're saying the same thing, but in different ways.

Are you saying all units of power are equal but the number of units of power between people differ? Cos I'd agree with that.
 

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I just called it blue. Teal's probably more accurate. :p

And all power is equal, just like all energy is equal. A joule is a joule. It just so happens that power isn't easily quantifiable and is described subjectively, much like we bastardize thermoeconomic value into monetary policy.

If A can do what B can do plus more, then A has more power than B. If A can accomplish goal Z more efficiently or effectively than B can, A has more power. So power = force x direction.

Are you trying to describe free will / will power with physics as it's metaphor?
 
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I think we're saying the same thing, but in different ways.

Are you saying all units of power are equal but the number of units of power between people differ? Cos I'd agree with that.
How can one adequately translate a unit to a task so that tasks can be compared on an individual basis?
Are you trying to describe free will / will power with physics as it's metaphor?
Maybe just a little bit...

Same question for you as Hado.
 

Base groove

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Excerpt from the Wikipedia article "Power (social and political)"

People use power more than rewards, threats, and information to influence people. In everyday situations people use a variety of power tactics to push or prompt people into particular action. There are plenty of examples of power tactics that are quite common and employed every day. Some of these tactics include bullying, collaboration, complaining, criticizing, demanding, disengaging, evading, humor, inspiring, manipulating, negotiating, socializing, and supplicating. These power tactics can be classified along three different dimensions: softness, rationality, and laterality.


Soft and hard

Soft tactics take advantage of the relationship between person and the target. They are more indirect and interpersonal (e.g., collaboration, socializing). Conversely, hard tactics are harsh, forceful, direct, and rely on concrete outcomes. However, they are not more powerful than soft tactics. In many circumstances, fear of social exclusion can be a much stronger motivator than some kind of physical punishment.


Rational and nonrational

Rational tactics of influence make use of reasoning, logic, and sound judgment, whereas nonrational tactics rely on emotionality and misinformation. Examples of each include bargaining and persuasion, and evasion and put downs, respectively.​
Unilateral and bilateral

Bilateral tactics, such as collaboration and negotiation, involve reciprocity on the part of both the person influencing and their target. Unilateral tactics, on the other hand, are enacted without any participation on the part of the target. These tactics include disengagement and fait accompli.​

People tend to vary in their use of power tactics, with different types of people opting for different tactics. For instance, interpersonally oriented people tend to use soft and rational tactics. Machiavellians, however, tend to use nonrational tactics. Moreover, extraverts use a greater variety of power tactics than do introverts. Further, men tend to use bilateral and direct tactics, whereas women tend to use unilateral and indirect tactics. People will also choose different tactics based on the group situation, and based on who they are trying to influence. People also tend to shift from soft to hard tactics when they face resistance.
 

Milo

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How can one adequately translate a unit to a task so that tasks can be compared on an individual basis?

Maybe just a little bit...

Same question for you as Hado.

One would have to understand each individuals programming in their brains and know see how the logic is leveraged with the input of energy. This would also tie into the digestive system and respiratory system's efficiency. Also, pending on the task, outside materials would also be used to leverage or borrow energy--such as the use of electricity or writing things down for remembering.

All in all, it could be done by just having the two perform the task and calculate the speed, but this does not mean the faster one used the energy more efficiently than the other.
 

Hadoblado

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How can one adequately translate a unit to a task so that tasks can be compared on an individual basis?

Ah...

As a hypothetical construct it has limitations. I'd say that power doesn't exist in any meaningful way outside of its application to a set goal. These goals can be generalised between people, and thus their power as defined by that goal can be compared. The power itself cannot be generalised between tasks so easily (though they can be correlated by tapping the same potentials) between people or within the same person.

Your point is very good though. I had not thought that far in.
 

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I do not think Bass groove's definition would apply to an internet forum so much because on the subject of what is "true," truth remains the same no matter who says what about what. It is not the same as making a decision so much.

Whenever someone lets another "dominate" him/her, I believe it is their own projections that are causing this feeling--even if it the motive of the other party.
 
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