Do INTPs use Ne or Ni?

[Paladin-X]

Here is an example of a diagram that Jung created to demonstrate the functions:

[BIMG]http://www.jung.org/images/gad%20p%2010.jpg[/BIMG]

Which shows TeNe rather than TeNi. (CW10 Par626)

Here is another diagram (CW12 Par137):

[BIMG]http://www.members.shaw.ca/cgjung/Images/Fucntions.jpg[/BIMG]

It looks as though conscious functions share the same attitude as the dominant. Does the auxiliary really share the same attitude as the dominant? Or in this case, do INTPs use Ne or Ni?

Thoughts?

 

[scorpiomover]

The original descriptions of MBTI that I first came across in the early 90s, looked like this:

As you can see, the strength of each function gets smaller, as it passes from the dominant to the inferior.

However, Jung wrote that the subconscious complements the conscious. I think that what Jung MIGHT have meant for an INTP, was the following:

Strongly Introverted Thinking.
Weakly Introverted Intution.
Weakly Extroverted Sensation.
Strongly Extroverted Feeling.

So then INTP might be TI-Ni-Se-FE, and INTJ is NI-Ti-Fe-SE.

But TJs are eminently self-motivated, which suggests Fi. Mind you, INFPs are not all that self-motivated and ambitious, and ENFPs are definitely people-pleasers, and they both have Fi.

So I'll have to think about this further.

 

[Obsidian]

In Chapter 10 Psychological Types, he states that ALL the lesser functions are oriented opposite to the dominant function. He seems to have contradicted himself at various points on this subject. Thus, I get the idea that he was not totally sure about it. Somewhere along the line, you even began to see those idiot Socionics people proclaiming that you can have both Ti and Fi at once. Part of the reason for the ambiguity is that Jung was unsure (except he was sure that Socionics is wrong).

Notably, the configuration in that diagram is possible under MBTI -- except it would be called an ESTJ with a dominant-tertiary loop (i.e., a psychologically unhealthy individual).

 

[TheScornedReflex]

They have neither . The N stands for neurotic!

 

[Architect]

So then INTP might be TI-Ni-Se-FE, and INTJ is NI-Ti-Fe-SE.

But TJs are eminently self-motivated, which suggests Fi. Mind you, INFPs are not all that self-motivated and ambitious, and ENFPs are definitely people-pleasers, and they both have Fi.

So I'll have to think about this further.

Another better interpretation (the modern one) is that the tertiary and inferior are "subconscious" or largely unconscious.

 

[Paladin-X]

In Chapter 10 Psychological Types, he states that ALL the lesser functions are oriented opposite to the dominant function. He seems to have contradicted himself at various points on this subject. Thus, I get the idea that he was not totally sure about it. Somewhere along the line, you even began to see those idiot Socionics people proclaiming that you can have both Ti and Fi at once. Part of the reason for the ambiguity is that Jung was unsure (except he was sure that Socionics is wrong).

Notably, the configuration in that diagram is possible under MBTI -- except it would be called an ESTJ with a dominant-tertiary loop (i.e., a psychologically unhealthy individual).

Actually he states at the end of the chapter that he doesn't want to give the impression that the types occur in pure forms (ie only 1 differentiated function). Then he goes on to talk about the two conscious functions vs the two unconscious ones.

 

[Obsidian]

"The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed"

 

[Paladin-X]

"The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed"

I think you are taking this one detail out of context and applying it to the whole. When he's talking about each of the functions and function types, he is trying to describe them in their purest form in order to better differentiate one from the other. In the section about the Prinicipal and the Auxiliary he notes this:

"In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that such pure types occur at all frequently in actual practice. They are, as it were, only Galtonesque family-portraits, which sum up in a cumulative image the common and therefore typical characters, stressing these disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced. "

 

[Obsidian]

Can you not see that in the article cited, he specifically says Ti is followed by some combination of Fe, Ne, and Se?

 

[Paladin-X]

Can you not see that in the article cited, he specifically says Ti is followed by some combination of Fe, Ne, and Se?

Yes. I've understood your point the first two times.

Can you not see, in the quote I've cited, that he is talking about Ti vs Fe, Ne, Se as a pure Ti type and not to be taken as describing an Introverted Thinking Intuitive/Sensation type?

 

[own8ge]

The INTP uses as much Ni as Ne. However, Ni is not as conscious. At least... That is what I speculate. Jung believed the Dominant function to be as dominant as one his last function. (For Ti this is Fi). I myself believe all functions to be connected as such.

 

[Obsidian]

No, the INTP does not use Ni. That is ridiculous.

@Paladin-X, I see what you are saying now. I would have just interpreted your quote as referring to the descriptions of behavior, not to the function order. But it is possible you are right. I don't know for sure what he meant.

 

[redbaron]

I believe that like all other questions, Monty Python has the answer:

We are the knights who say, 'Ni!'

Conclusive evidence that INTP's use Ni and not Ne.

 

[nanook]

not reading the whole thread, just interpreting what i see in the first image. it appears the print is bad and the label refers not to the axis but to the field that is next to the label counter clockwise.

100% Te (dominant)

aux and tertiary (in mbti language, jung calls both of them aux): 80% Ni, 80% Se

shadow: 100% Fi

you also see 20% Ne and 20%Si

what you can also see is that in jung's understanding the forces of extroversion or introversion and dominance are independent from the function and dynamically applied to it, inserted if you want, like water waves may engrave a coast, somewhat temporarily and somewhat lasting. so there is just Intuition or Sensation as a whole, but they are modulated by 80% to one side, rendering 20% in polarity to that.

in socionics they have a name for those 20% of Ni ( i have forgotten ), and they say that individuals tend to be amused or entertained through them, but also tend to lash out against them, not take them serious, don't know very well how to connect/integrate them with reality. it's more like encrypted dream stuff to them, the let it pass by without realizing the significance.

 

[nanook]

these graphics argue against the idea that introversion does only exist inside of functions and that is what makes them really .... revolt against typical mbti jazz. but if you think about it. does a human being's NEED to adapt to external reality, thereby creating objectivity aka extroverted functionality possibly affect only one function? that's quite unlikely. one function may more likely give in, dedicate itself to this need. but the need or force for extroversion comes from the outside and there must be intelligence in the subject that recognizes this need as such, hence the subject has an extroverted agenda that is transcendent to the functions. this is how jung's thinking is connected to naturalism or evolution, whereas the idea that x-version comes out of one function and belongs only to that function (and that there are 8 distinct functions) implies some sort of intelligent design, which is a projection of the n00b typologist, who is constructing a possible reality from his thoughts, like a house from woodpricks, instead of reading actual reality from evidence.

 

[Black Rose]

I don't seem to understand.
Do functions rotate through cycles?
conscious - unconscious
introvert to extroverted

 

[nanook]

what if the circle rotates in relation to something outside of it or rather that outside thing rotates around the circle? if the circle is like the earth, it's continents like the functions, the moon like the ego (dominance), the sun like introversion, it's shadow like extroversion. ... and the ego/dom/moon/rotates faster than the xversion/sun, ego goes from original dom to aux within a life time or a half life time, sun may take several lifetimes to move noticeably .... (obviously i'm just playing with ideas here)

 

[Black Rose]

If intelligence is the force behind transcending preference depending on circumstance is it not biology that it is working against. How would one become aware of what is their new point of view?

How would an INTP become aware of what Te their opposite. Would they need a higher vantage point to even know which type they are then become fungible?

 

[nanook]

i'm using the words slightly different. biology is not outside of intelligence, in my book. it's complexity arranging itself=intelligence. however one might divide into levels of physical, bodily and human intelligence but the levels are not disconnected, they are integrated with each other, hence intelligence joins them into one being, growing along one synergistic path of development or compromise or whatever.

i don't understand your second question completely, language wise, but i intuit every event (such as Te) as being self aware and self announcing, but a neighboring event (ego of INTP) must also be receptive to take the announcing information in. in other words you begin to understand what Te really is, by using Te, then you begin to notice how you are using Te based on your understanding of what Te is. Te is the understanding of Te, but it's not given, it needs to evolve inside of Te. for example. same for every other function. but i don't exclude the possibility of one function creating another comprehension of another function, such as Ni making visualisations of all cognitive processes. it's just that those comprehensions are separate perspectives, and i believe they are informed by the self-understanding of the function they comprehend. so Ni can only appropriately visualize Te in terms of Ni, after or to the degree Te can understand itself in terms of Te.

however, since there are only four functions, i have to correct myself slightly: T is understanding Te and Ti by using either of those modulations. but Ne won't picture any of that, Ni will, yet Ni is essentially N, so in that sense N can picture T, accurately to the degree that T is radiating self-concern.

(i am channeling Bashar, in case you were wondering) /jK