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differences between intp and intj

peoplesuck

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I have looked this up and watched videos and i dont see much difference, so if someone could tell me the biggest difference that would be great :). you can turn this thread into whats the difference between x and y.
 

peoplesuck

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I read that since Intp are Fe they seem warmer, is this not true?
 

Base groove

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Actually you should visit YouTube for xxxx vs. xxxx videos as they are both numerous and informative. INTx types are by far the biggest* attention whores of the internet so you'll definitely find what you're looking for, pretty much anywhere you look for it.

*should mention they are subtle about it
 

peoplesuck

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Why do intps and intjs seem so similar when they have no functions n common?
 

BigApplePi

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I've been thimking on that. Hope to post something after I finish feeding my dog.
 

BigApplePi

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intp and intj Compared

Why do intps and intjs seem so similar when they have no functions in common?
Review: INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe ; INTJ = Ni Te Fi Si

Both of these are thinking temperaments, both introverted.
I'm sure differences have been stated before so I will look at one. How would they diverge? Let's say a problem is to be addressed heading toward a solution.

One person could start with experience or lack of experience and not know what to do with that. They are only aware of the problem. Think Te/Se. That person doesn't buy the Te/Se and seeks only deduction by first looking for patterns and coming up with how those patterns could have happened, that is some logical theory. So far we have INTP.

Another person could differ only in having more faith in Te/Se. That person is less skeptical and is ready to buy the Te/Se. That is the INTJ. The difference is judgment. The INTP is reluctant to judge. The INTJ is ready to judge.

Now notice the cognitive functions. The INTJ who is ready to judge goes with Te/Se, uses Ni as the overall internal state and feels this internally (Fi).

The INTP who is the greater skeptic insists on stronger deduction, rejects Te/Se as too specific, wants more data (Ne) and insists on internal fitting (Si) and disliking subjective motives (Fi).

Summary: The difference is in the amount of skepticism. The CFs are a consequence of this skepticism.
 

BigApplePi

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Re: intp and intj Compared

Notice the above message. Was it written by an INTP or an INTJ? Answer: Can't tell. If it was meant to be speculative theory, it was written by an INTP. If it was written to push a conviction, it was written by an INTJ. What do you think?

Also note if an INTP has hardened his/her logic, he/she exhibits INTJ traits.

Added:
Notice I would think an INTP and INTJ could alternate these states. Skepticism could change to conviction could change to skepticism and so on. Conviction puts the theory "out there" into the external world: Te/Se. Skepticism brings it back internally: Ti/Si.
 

BigApplePi

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Reluctantly

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Why? Because INTPs have no feelings; because INTJs will step all over you.

They're metaphors - antithetically composed, but sensical, and synthetically equivalent, but manifested differently. It says a lot with so little.

Maybe think about it, without drawing conclusions about its meaning?
 

BigApplePi

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INTx types are by far the biggest* attention whores of the internet so you'll definitely find what you're looking for, pretty much anywhere you look for it.

*should mention they are subtle about it
Attention. Attention Base groove. Now why do you thimk that would be?
 

Cherry Cola

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No its interesting please elaborate if possible, dun care if reasons are speculative :O
 

doncarlzone

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Perhaps because the popular MBTI descriptions are licking NTs asses. Many people who test as NT use it as some sort of social proof and thus feel obligated to share their ingenious wisdom.

Here is a brilliant example (look how he almost gets off by reading the ENTP "traits"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrVHwYf-w_Y
 

Jennywocky

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I'm still getting nosebleeds from seeing "INTJ" and "human" referred to in the same sentence.
 

BigApplePi

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I dunno who cares?
Off hand I dunno. You have raised a very profound question Base groove. We begin by separating those who care, providing a long list and those who don't care. Base groove what is the data base for those who don't care? We can't have all seven billion participating.
 

nanook

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I'm a very sensitive harmony seeking introverted person, much better than most at creating a space for others to feel unconditionally accepted in, but when we discuss important subjects and i understand something that makes all the difference, for the future of your personal development or your physical health, perhaps to a lesser degree the wellbeing of others, my Te will step all over your ignorance, without hesitation and without backing down. This mix of being easygoing and strict is not a contradiction, because i differentiate exactly between anything that is subjective and anything that is objective. I accept the human subject in all of it's delusional imperfection, in so far as we are dreamers, feeling good about ourselves is all that matters, it's best to be patient, delusions will sort them selves out and make room for new delusions, that's just life. But in so far we are physical bodies or we treat each other in certain ways, there are objective criteria for what serves our wellbeing and what doesn't. I'm not cutting anyone some slack, because it's always about the principle. Someone who does a mistake once, does it a thousand times, if he doesn't understand that it's a mistake. If he does understand, fine, i'm a punk and also very forgiving. As an introvert, i'm exclusively concerned with the wellbeing of the subject. I can only care about how to be functional in buisness or politics or infrastructure, as long as i can oversee how it effects us subjectively. I'm the most happy, if i can just completely ignore wordy concerns, hang out in nature and of course in my weird ideas.

Am I NiTeFiSe or FiSeNiTe? It seems to depend on my mood. Could be wrong about my perceptive functions as well, but i'm fairly certain about Fi and Te.

Ti and Fe is very obviously different in how it goes about arguing or considering the importance of argument. Ti is private and concerned with how to achieve random shit that is important to you, learning or doing, if other people are stupid, fine, let them be stupid, less competition for you, Fe is situational and concerned with relationship, you want to get them to sleep with you, not teach them philosophy. But if you want them to look up to you, teach them something, it doesn't have to be true or important, or valuable, just impressive. So, lots of light banter, little serious discussion. ENTP take this pattern to the max, since they care little about the subject (the person).



compared to average self described INTJ on message boards, i am bit more concerned with respecting introverted feeling and making space for it.

for instance, if you had some stupid political views but you don't even vote and don't talk enough about politics to convince anyone of your views, then the average selfdiagnoned INTJ would probably still argue with you, whereas i might not. your views are not only wrong (thinking) they are also attachments (feelings) that provide you with a sense of identity. i will try, not to make people cry, by avoiding unnecessary challenge, but sometimes i fail. my consciousness of how attachment and motivation affect thought also has the opposite effect, on occasion. Some Te users will argue strictly about the logic, whereas i'm often tempted to address the feeling issue, behind the ignorance.

this could point to me being Fi dominant, but it could also simply be a difference in character, for instance INTJ who are raised by attached feeling types will have to learn how to be gentle while INTJ raised by ESTJ dad will have to learn how to be competitive. on the other hand, how is type created? inborn, or evoked by situational necessity.
 

Cherry Cola

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I'm still getting nosebleeds from seeing "INTJ" and "human" referred to in the same sentence.

Haven't you ever looked at or thought about Nietzsche as cute? I know I have, as I have with other INTJs. They are so passionate, so dead on, it's adorable. This sounds terribly insulting I realize, so I must also say that I do dig and respect INTJs as far as personality types go. Sometimes they come and just tear you to pieces and then when you've put yourself together again you realize you're better off than before :O
 

Jennywocky

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Haven't you ever looked at or thought about Nietzsche as cute? I know I have, as I have with other INTJs. They are so passionate, so dead on, it's adorable. This sounds terribly insulting I realize, so I must also say that I do dig and respect INTJs as far as personality types go. Sometimes they come and just tear you to pieces and then when you've put yourself together again you realize you're better off than before :O

Sorry, I just had to get in a stereotypical INTJ dig. :D

... but in actuality, while INTPs get called "robots" commonly, I find INTJs to be more stereotypically rigid in terms of thinking and thus "mechanical" in logic, especially when clinging to and pushing specific points. Maybe that's the Te?

Ti is broader/more conceptual and thus broader/fuzzier. Concepts by nature include "bands of data" versus rigid precise lines.


.... hmmmm... Maybe INTP = warm robots = Tin Man? Sure as hell wouldn't be Bender, he's not warm unless he's drinking kegs of beer that've been sitting out in the sun.
 

paradoxparadigm7

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Here's a good one:

INTPs - the warmest robots
INTJs - the coldest humans

This is off topic but I was wondering what the congruent analogy would be for INFP and INFJ? This is not just for BG but anyone that wants a stab at it.
 

nanook

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I identify a lot with a robot, who tries to understand Fe, but fails. The outsider, who tries to belong but has absolutely no means. I don't like Data (star trek) but the concept of him. However Lt. Data doesn't have Fi either, so that's where i differ and that's where he does resemble the Ti INTP, the person with a naive lack of philosophy/morals. ("if they are too tall, can't we just cut off their legs?")

i consider the MBTI expression "inferior" misleading, the shadow Fe behind Ti is perfectly functional, it's just an agenda that is often not admitted and it can do narcissistic manipulative moves that are as bad as those of angry esfj.

on the other hand, INTJ NiTe do have a truly "inferior Fe", because we/they(?) can at best fake it through Te, which isn't very functional.

my view of Ti INTP is that of the evil robot from Alien, the one who does corrupt work for the corporation and rationalizes it. he is very good at demonstrating both Fe and Fi, but doesn't mean it. i think one of the alien movies has more of an entp model. paul reiser.
 

Cherry Cola

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Truth is. No one can care about truth like INTJs, it's just that for them it's infused with purpose the definite lack of it. The cold deduction of an INTPs Ti cannot match the blistering imagery of the INTJs Ni in force.

Edit: For the record, you always struck me as an INFP Nanook. But it may just be that I have a tendency to mistake the calmer and outwards harmonious INTJs for INFPs, I don't know.
 

StevenM

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From what I know, and how I see it:

INTP's usually can be seen with extroverted intuition, and in an inferior way, feeling. So you'll see the characteristics of Ne and Fe. Internally, and sometimes hard to see, they are usually using strong thinking and some Si.

INTJ's will usually be seen using extroverted T and S. You'll see some characteristics of extroverted thinking and inferior extroverted sensing. Internally, and in some ways unseen to others, they have characteristics of strong intuition and some introverted feeling.

Remember that intuition and sensing are the means of gathering and collecting information and data to be used for decisions and principals of the judging functions.

This page (given to me from spirit) has a good description of characteristics of each function:
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/index.cfm
 

nanook

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@Cherry Cola.

my theory is that all facebook INFP are actually Ti who call me out for lack of Fe (without wording it like that) and abandon me from the fake INFP tribe, so i must assume i'm another type (also differences between my and their physiognomy). they practice a complete lack of logical thinking (Te) and of genuine meaningful values (Fi) because they want to get laid. nice Fe+Ti strategy. but until i have solid evidence for this conspiracy, i must assume that i'm the one who would be wrong about being INFP. Te is a bit democratic.

as i said, i'm insecure about perception, ISFP and INFP are possibilities i consider, next to INTJ. i do not feel, like i am a true full time directive type, if such exist in reality. i can only be directive in my own privacy, artistically and as a seeker. however, because of the socionics issue, i'm not sure what that means. i resemble INTp NiTe clichees more than INTJ NiTe clichees. I just hope i am not ISTJ, too much horrible clichees about those guys.


@TMills27, someone who shows extroverted thinking (teaching) and sensation (fire temperament) is fitness guru paul check. what's interesting about him, is that he is painting pictures, that give a lot of insight into his intuition. and of course his overall worldview.

i'm more of a water temperament myself, but i have that inferior endomorph gladiator somewhere in me.
 

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I had this problem for a very long time.

Helped me looking on inferior functions: Si, Se, Fe, Fi

Fe gives you ability to learn others emotions easily. You know, when someone who are you talking with is bored, or interested. You know if someone likes you. When you meet a strager, instantly you know if you would like him.

Si gives you great long-term memory. I remember many facts, that happend a long time ago, and often was unimportant, but for some reason I remember many details. It's what differ me from INTJs and ISTPs. When I read a book, I can talk about it with details, usually I remember names, escpecially thoose very difficult. But I have very low short-term memory..
 

nanook

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i have poor memory of concrete details like names or the unfolding of story. i remember general atmospheres, subjective impressionism, mood and visuals.

my way of knowing if i like people is visual, facial sympathy (i wish you guys had meaningful avatars). it tells me who will understand me, be able to share my perspectives or perhaps have skills, that would be helpful or dangerous to me. it comes as a surprise to me, how we will actually relate socially, unless i have known identical looking individuals. i can't even imagine how relationship might be possible at all. i have a sense of how strongly people come off, a sense that tells me if i should act equal or submissive or confident, but it's horribly vague and probably misleading. and i absolutely hate it when people run around with too much fashion and make up, because it totally misguides my instinct.
 

Cherry Cola

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Why on earth would you be an ISFP or ISTJ? :S Your intuition is obvious. I think you should be careful with those visual impressions, unless you are seeing an animated face or many many pictures you run a high risk of misinterpreting the picture or you'll just see what said person wants you to see. To me this sounds like Dom Fi+tert Si, putting people in folders giving them roles and characters so that Ne gets a starting point.

There's one thread where people have posted pictures of themselves though I presume you've already perused it?
 

nanook

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yes, i have downloaded all pictures from all message boards and labeled them with likely types, sorted into folders for their types. next to several thousand pictures of celebrities. and yes, a single photo can be a little bit misleading, though at least the fact that someone tries to mislead will usually show. (i should add that my visual instinct about people existed prior to any idea of typology and isn't even affected by it too much. instinct and physiognomy are different animals that dance together)

it's obvious that i am intuitive, according to mbti cliches, but i have to be bold enough to question those. i think i have at least 4 conscious functions.
 

nanook

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i think anyone who calls himself manipulator must be a Ti type, no disrespect implied, because Te is about as manipulative as captain obvious/Dwight Schrute, etc.

however, this impersonation of captain obvious has NeTi spirit all over it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgb7W9VLkI4

it's why the ad is quite watchable, when it could be horribly boring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyRliaitQWs

"you think? all of the time."

we have that in common.
 

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"Picture typing" only works if the subject in question has been observed in some type of adequate enough motion on some other occasion.. Otherwise, I mean, the notion seems self serving in a way
 

Brontosaurie

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care to share some of your visual readings, nanook?

some meaning, of course, all.
 

nanook

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i don't claim to be some sort of expert, i am just someone who will never discard the endeavour of understanding the functionality of the world of form, just because studying it means growing the brain to infinity, until it includes all patterns in the whole universe. obviously exteriority is an expression of interiority, everything has meaning. and motion must manifest in the matter. there are just some people with visual brains and some people with wordy brains. btw, one of the reasons why i do not rule out sensation too quickly.

it's like asking me to share alpha source code.
i doubt i will ever release that program, since it's my brain itself. i simply enjoy the practice of looking at stuff and don't try to get rid of the complexity of the territory, by reducing it to 16 labels.
 

John_Mann

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INTP = Dr. Manhattan

INTJ = Ozymandias
 

TimeAsylums

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Veidt said:
We can do so much more. We can save this world... with the right leadership.

I don't mind being the smartest man in the world, I just wish it wasn't this one.

I've known Jon long enough to see he isn't devoid of emotion. His subtle facial twitches wouldn't have been noticed by the layman, but to me, he might as well have been sobbing.

I've made myself feel every death... see every innocent face I've murdered to save humanity.


[bimgx=200]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/WATCHMEN_2012_OZY_Cvr.jpg[/bimgx]

Osterman said:

Why would I save a world I no longer have any stake in?

In my opinion, the existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon.

A live human body and a deceased human body have the same number of particles. Structurally there's no difference.

I would only agree that a symbolic clock is as nourishing to the intellect as photograph of oxygen to a drowning man.

Miracles by their definition are meaningless, only what can happen does happen.


[bimgx=300]http://whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Manhattan-3.jpg[/bimgx]

:D :D :D
 

Cherry Cola

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i don't claim to be some sort of expert, i am just someone who will never discard the endeavour of understanding the functionality of the world of form, just because studying it means growing the brain to infinity, until it includes all patterns in the whole universe. obviously exteriority is an expression of interiority, everything has meaning. and motion must manifest in the matter. there are just some people with visual brains and some people with wordy brains. btw, one of the reasons why i do not rule out sensation too quickly.

it's like asking me to share alpha source code.
i doubt i will ever release that program, since it's my brain itself. i simply enjoy the practice of looking at stuff and don't try to get rid of the complexity of the territory, by reducing it to 16 labels.

I don't mean to be demeaning; I do it to. You don't seem naive about it either, indeed you seem quite conscious of its limits.

I also want to see more pictures of people.
 

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@TA: Yeah, the big difference seems to be "control" -- INTJ has a tendency to want to use its mental faculties to generate a desired outcome, while INTP has a goal of "understanding the machine".

If you want to functionally break it down, INTJ = Ni + Te = Vision + Accomplishment, whereas INTP = Ti + Ne = Understanding + Exploration.

Voight has a vision for the world and uses his brain to generate a path to success. Osterman uses his imagination to understand how the world is put together; power is used to better understand something, rather than dominate it.

One thing I've noticed is that INTPs tend to be stand-offish in the sense of having a non-inteference policy. Understand + explore, but don't dominate; dominating a process means altering its pure functioning so that it no longer reflects what it actually is.
 

nanook

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>I also want to see more pictures of people.

not from me. i have too many different perspectives on what is what, to publish. for instance i'm testing what it means that some people pull their left eyebrow and other's their right. it's difficult to get evidence for a pattern to be consistent across types. i never have objective proof that anyone is a particular type. i have no objective prove of a theoretical definition of a type being correct either. i have several layers of incomplete puzzels that should be aligned with each other and have to trust in the slow process of my brain of doing so, over the years.

in the meantime time asylums posting makes me happy.
 

StevenM

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yes, i have downloaded all pictures from all message boards and labeled them with likely types, sorted into folders for their types. next to several thousand pictures of celebrities.

You didn't happen to snatch my picture(s) when I first signed up did you?
 

TimeAsylums

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INTJ = Ni + Te
INTP = Ti + Ne


Even though both introverts, the interesting thing is it's N>T and T>N,
so maybe the E's counterparts may be compared as well

INTJ/ENTP - NiTe/NeTi
INTP/ENTJ - TiNe/TeNi

Well, just the whole temperament.

relevant:

Ti vs Te

INTJs’ Extraverted Thinking (Te)

Since their auxiliary function is Extraverted Thinking (Te), INTJs prefer the world’s systems and operations be controlled, orderly, and rational. Since Te is extraverted, INTJs endorse a standardized set of collective methods for evaluating and implementing what is rational. This is why INTJs believe so strongly in the value of science and the scientific method. Their Te is more positivistic and forward-moving than INTPs’ Introverted Thinking is. Once their Ni vision is clear, INTJs use their Te to formulate definitions, plans, policies, classifications, and procedures, working to develop a perfectly rational and orderly system.

INTPs’ Introverted Thinking (Ti)

While INTPs may find some degree of philosophical resonance with INTJs, they feel strongly averse to INTJs’ Te propensities. Rather than striving to make external systems more rational, the introverted nature of INTPs’ Introverted Thinking orients their rationality toward themselves and their own ideas, making them more idiosyncratic than INTJs. INTPs are largely concerned with ensuring that their own lives, worldview, and personal philosophy are rational. Their Ti impels them to establish and reestablish inner order. While INTJs are comfortable to leave their inner world open and allow their Ni ample time to mull things over, INTPs find persistent inner openness uncomfortable and work to reduce it through use of their Introverted Thinking.

These differences also go a long way in accounting for the putative division of philosophers into the continental and analytic camps. INTJs are more apt to gravitate toward the analytic camp, whose logical positivism can be associated with Te. The continental school, by contrast, takes a more critical stance toward science and leans toward more relativistic and historical interpretations of knowledge. ENTPs, whose dominant Ne should, at least in theory, make them more comfortable with relativism, and whose inferior Introverted Sensing (Si)confers an interest in history, are perhaps the best representatives of the continental school. INTPs often fall somewhere in between, tending to resonate with the analytic camp’s quest for convergent, non-relativistic truth, while siding with the continental camp’s questioning of the assumptions and methods of science.

If we extend this analysis to some of the other personality types, we might find that INFPs, because of their inferior Te, are actually more interested in formal science than INTPs are. Their Te inferior allows INFPs to better tolerate working within structured settings and systems. In lacking Te, INFJs are more apt, along with NTPs, to prefer less formal means of investigating truth. For this reason, NTPs may feel quite comfortable philosophizing with NFJs, while NTJs may feel a certain Te-Fi camaraderie with NFPs.


INTP vs INTJ
 

nanook

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i feel that dr manhattan is an inconsistent character though. his understanding is based in Ne, not in Ti. and Ni is not inclusive of Ne. the difference between Ni and Ni is, will you do something about it or will you let it go. personally, i actually tend to let it go more.

Ti does not contribute to understanding of how things work, it shapes personal "philosophy", how things can be done (together) and more importantly why should anything be done. dr manhattan seems to be a libertarian. "why should i save the world, if i can get by, by taking care only of myself. let me just fly to the moon"

while it's consistent with the Ti Ne pattern, it's not consistent in terms of genius. his Ne is genius level, his Ti is stupid. Ken Wilber, a Ti user in my understanding, is the real life Dr Manhatten an his philosophy is not that of a teenager, who wants to see the world burn, in a comic book.
 

BigApplePi

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i have poor memory of concrete details like names or the unfolding of story. i remember general atmospheres, subjective impressionism, mood and visuals.

my way of knowing if i like people is visual, facial sympathy (i wish you guys had meaningful avatars). it tells me who will understand me, be able to share my perspectives or perhaps have skills, that would be helpful or dangerous to me. it comes as a surprise to me, how we will actually relate socially, unless i have known identical looking individuals. i can't even imagine how relationship might be possible at all. i have a sense of how strongly people come off, a sense that tells me if i should act equal or submissive or confident, but it's horribly vague and probably misleading. and i absolutely hate it when people run around with too much fashion and make up, because it totally misguides my instinct.
@nanook. For now I'll give you an INFP. I won't give reasons lest it bias you. I have always considered you a mystery but all this analysis is clearing things up.
 

BigApplePi

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New York City (The Big Apple) & State
This is off topic but I was wondering what the congruent analogy would be for INFP and INFJ? This is not just for BG but anyone that wants a stab at it.
I love to take a preliminary stab at Qs like this ... if only to see how far I can get. I rely on Si to give me confidence and don't have any Ne for experience so I won't know who is INFP/INFJ for verification.

One thing is obvious. The INFPs do not judge while the INFJ will.

Review: INFP = Fi Ne Si Te; INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se

The INFP will not judge but will feel deeply looking at the world. If the INTP wants to get things logically right, then the INFP would want to get feelings right ... like justice, friendliness, idealism maybe.

The INFJ will look at the outside world and push some feeling about it strongly rationalizing it with supporting Ti.

How's that for a try? Anything wrong so far? One thing I wonder about it do people want to add to interpretations like this? I don't want to if they can't be logically deduced.
 

Jennywocky

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i feel that dr manhattan is an inconsistent character though. his understanding is based in Ne, not in Ti. and Ni is not inclusive of Ne. the difference between Ni and Ni is, will you do something about it or will you let it go. personally, i actually tend to let it go more.

Ti does not contribute to understanding of how things work, it shapes personal "philosophy", how things can be done (together) and more importantly why should anything be done. dr manhattan seems to be a libertarian. "why should i save the world, if i can get by, by taking care only of myself. let me just fly to the moon"

while it's consistent with the Ti Ne pattern, it's not consistent in terms of genius. his Ne is genius level, his Ti is stupid. Ken Wilber, a Ti user in my understanding, is the real life Dr Manhatten an his philosophy is not that of a teenager, who wants to see the world burn, in a comic book.

I think you're kind of drifting off in a personal rant here (Dr Manhattan wants to see the world burn? What?), and I'm not sure I agree with all of your statements, but whatever.
 

nanook

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i'm judging the hell out of everything, with my Te, and Fi has my back in doing so. it's because i am feeling deeply, as they say. even though i can hardly ever tell, what i am feeling, as if feeling was a thing in it self that could be labeled. my feeling doesn't move around like a funny cat, though it might look that way to other people (grumpy cat, sad cat). emotion might be a shampoo or something. but every word has meaning to me. deep ethical meaning. that's how i am feeling: i'm feeling logically and i'm feeling the world and everything in it. no particular thoughts of anything = no feeling. i don't always think about something, and if you catch me in a moment like this and ask me how i feel, i can only speak of my sensations. i have leveled emotions that are difficult to describe, if i get into a fight, i'll be in a killing mood for days. i can be euphoric for months. i feel disappointed by events, a lot. hope is a sensitive spot for me. people describe me as looking sad, when i'm not aware of it. being sad about life is too normal for me.


INTPs - the warmest robots
INTJs - the coldest humans

INFP - the most grumpy philosophers (i'm thinking of myself and schopenhauer)
INFJ - the most loving egomaniacs
 
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