Developing N

[TheorySurgeon]

Hi. So how does a hopeless sensor.. say an ISFP go about developing into an INFP? Are there any techniques or methods of living which could help/ameliorate/cure their S side? An S who is willing to give it their best and is very cooperative ... (assuming an optimal situation)

 

[dark]

As in the other developing functions thread I started you must remember you won't change who you are, you will only be able to better develop who you are. If you are an ISFP then your N would be Ni. Which is your tertiary function. It will help you do whatever we N users do slightly better than you would have before.

Developing functions is more like becoming a better you. For some reason all I can think to compare it to is body builders, if they want to increase their total strength they do not just isolate one muscle, but work on them all. Of course we have those isolators but they are just show. If you want the real strength you work all the muscles and they learn to work as one, and intern you will not have to be as strong to be able to lift the same weight as an isolator.

Now back to functions, I am not one who could tell you what to do, I am usually the one asking the questions haha. Will leave the real answers to the more knowledgeable people.

 

[EvilScientist Trainee]

Look, surgeon, it seems that you're not familiar with the function theory yet.

Every person uses eight different cognitive functions. There are Perception functions (That are about Intuition and Sensing) and Judgement functions (That are about Thinking and feeling). Each of these preferences (N,F,S and T), display an attitude towards the world. It can be directed inwards (Introverted) or directed outwards (Extroverted).

Doing the math, we have: Extroverted Thinking and Feeling (Te and Fe), Introverted Thinking and Feeling (Ti and Fi), Extroverted Sensing and Intuition (Se and Ne) and Introverted Sensing and Intuition (Si and Ni).

Every type uses every one of them, but we're inclined to prefer two of them: A perception function and a judgment function of opposing attitude. So, if we had Ji(Introverted Judgment) as a favorite function, we would need to have a Pe function (Extraverted Perception) as auxiliary. With this information, we can understand that there are four different combinations (JiPe,PeJi,JePi,PiJe) that will make 16 different types.

The four letter code is made my taking into account a couple of things. Let's use Fi and Se as a person top two favorite functions.

First, the favorite function of the person is directed inwards or outwards? As our example has Fi as its dominant function (Most prefered function), it's an introvert.

Secondly, the function of these top two that is directed outwards is a perception function or a judgment function? Our example has Se as the extroverted function, and Se is a perceiving function, so it's a perceiving type.

Finally, the other two letters are nothing but the preferences of the top two functions. In our example, we have Feeling and Sensing.

Therefore, our type is a ISFP. An introverted, perceiver, sensing feeler.

But there's something else to keep in mind. To form the four letter code, we just need the top two functions. But you understand that there's no feeling without thinking and no intuition without sensing.

Therefore, we must balance that top two functions with opposing functions. So, our Fi-Se type will have also coupled Ni and Te. Therefore, the ISFP's function ordering is Fi-Se-Ni-Te.

Spoiler

Remember I said that types use all eight functions? The other four are the so called shadow functions. They're nothing but the same four top functions, but with their attitudes switched. That means that the ISFP shadow functions are Fe-Si-Ne-Ti.

With this in mind, you should understand that a person cannot change a type. You are born with an inclination towards these functions preferences.

If you were to be an INFP, you would have to use Ne, rather than Se, that is your natural preference. You can't change the way your mind works just like that without having a tremendous effort. In the end, you'll be only an ISFP trying to force Ne.

The nature of these tests lead the takers into believing that there's a type spectrum, as someone can be more 'intuitive' or more 'perceiving'. That's not true, as the functions form the basic motivations and desires of a type. There are no changes in type, just mistypings.

The accuracy of the typing relies heavily on self assessment, which is something that not everyone can take for granted. Also, it's incredibly prone to biases and misunderstandments.

If you happen to be naturally a feeler, but needs to use thinking on your daily activities, when you answer the test, there's a chance that you'll mistype yourself. That happens because of the binary nature of these tests.

Being an ISFP, it means that a person uses Fi as their dominant function. Fi is a function of subjective (Personal, individual) worth, which applies an individual's own made values to tackle on ethics. Fi is also the opposite of Te, which means that Fi dominant types are not very comfortable with logical organizations and protocols made for efficiency, which they find to be too impersonal.

If you - let's say, wanted to develop your Thinking to become a ISTP, you would need to learn to use Ti, ISTPs dominant function. But you're naturally inclined to use Te, even if it takes moment from your dominant function.

Then, when you see yourself behaving more logically, you'll find yourself looking for efficiency, competence and empirical worth (Te) rather than clarity, logical consistency and subjective truth (Ti).

But again, if you took the test. It would call you an ISTP wrongly.

I guess you've got the point by now. There's no way you can develop your intuition to become an INFP. However, you can learn to use your own intuition, that is Introverted intuition (Ni).

In order to do that, you should first understand the function. Read about it, understand it's essence. Then, try looking in your life for opportunities for using it. Understand that your inclination is naturally towards Se, so never let Ni get in your way of living. By developing your Ni, you'll become a more aware individual, as you'll be able to perceive from all of your communication channels.

I hope you can find everything you want.

 

[Indigo NT]

According to the theory, type can't change. To change from an ISFP to an INFP you would have to change from FiSeNiTe to FiNeSiTe. So your Se would have to go from 2nd position to 7th.

Changing from ISFP to ISFJ for example makes things even more clear. From FiSeNiTe to FeSiNeTi. You'd have to be shot in the head and survive to make that kind of transformation.

 

[Nysamis]

If you think you and/or the ISFP you are referring to can magically turn into an INFP by pressing the magic N button as if it's some sort of Sailor Moon/Superman-style transformation sequence, you are mistaken. An ISFP is an ISFP is an ISFP, no matter how developed the lower functions are. As an ISFP, you are naturally energized by reacting to visceral/sensory stimuli in the external environment. You do not prioritize the gathering of this data, but rather having the incoming data resonate with your deeply-held personal values. An INFP is similar in a way, because they also prioritize personal values above all else. The difference is the INFP will react to pattern-based data instead of sensory data. ISFPs can become quite adept at using their Ni, but it can't magically transform into Ne. The brain just doesn't work that way. Plus people are only energized by the dominant and auxiliary functions. It is a lot easier for an ISFP to reach their Ni than their Te, but there will be a slight energy decrease upon doing so. This never changes, no matter how much the ISFP gets good at using Ni.

While Ni and Ne are two sides of the same coin (intuitive pattern-based perception), they are very different. Ni is a left-brained worldview function that focuses on what is currently unknown. It's forte is speculating about what is likely to happen in the unknown future. It is a storehouse of personal pattern-based perceptions that form a plan for future action. For an ISFP, this is linked to Te. Therefore, the Ni map of the ISFP's game plan for the future will focus on impersonal systems like business, economics, math, etc. Both of these functions are a check on the ISFP's energy-generating functions of Fi and Se. These are very useful in many circumstances, but not all circumstances. Therefore, the ISFP needs these other two functions to balance out the Fi and the Se.

On the other hand, Ne is a right-brained outward form of perception: its data is out there in the environment, just like the Se sensory data. Many people do not understand the process of perceiving with Ne, but for the people who know how that works, it is easy to see that Ne's data is dependent on the external environment rather than the internal environment of Ni, which is different for each Ni user. (For instance, you could assemble a whole bunch of Ni users to write their opinions of what will happen when some new technology (like last year's iPad) comes out. Will it be popular? Irrelevant? The next step forward in technology? etc. The Ni user's predictions will be different, depending on their worldview.)

With the way the world works now, Ne usually doesn't get much validation. So many INFPs have rather underdeveloped Ne. But this does not change the fact that they will always get energy from the patterns in the external environment. They also have a worldview, but it is based in the past. Their Si stores the patterns that have resonated with their Fi. Since their Si is linked to their Te, they will also never get energy from using their sensing function, just like you cannot gain energy from Ni, no matter how developed it is. Plus, the brain can only be stimulated by its top two functions; anything more than that and the brain would have information overload.

Your brain is wired to work in a specific way because it is useful. If it were not useful, the ISFPs would have died out long before now, as they would have no place in human society. And nothing kills an erection/shrinks the ovaries faster than useless, pathetic people. ISFPs have special talents that no other type has. Same with the INFP. Recognize that you are the way you are, and accept it. Strive to develop your Ni and Te, because then you can do things better than other ISFPs who forsake their lower functions. That will make it so you can refine the natural talents of your Fi and Se.

So if you are an ISFP, you can't become an INFP. You wouldn't want to; if it were possible it would be like death, because you would need a brain transplant. You would no longer be you. To sum it all up, it's best to go back to my first example, the transformation sequence. In shows like Sailor Moon and Superman, the heroes transform. (They are both rather laugh-inducing as well.) Part of the joke behind these shows is that it is SO easy to tell that the superhero fighters are the deceptively normal people who go to school/work at a newspaper. No one else can tell that Clark Kent is really Superman. (Glasses: the most powerful cloaking device ever!) But the viewers can, and that's because the actual person does not change. They only change outfits. While they sit in some boring class, the Sailor Scouts still have their powers. They're just latent at the moment, like potential energy. Biology lab is not the place to whip out your wand that looks uncannily like some fancy vibrator. It's not the place to fight horribly dressed bad guys. They'd get locked up in the loony bin otherwise. Likewise, Clark Kent really doesn't want everyone to know he's actually Superman. So they play the role of "normal person."

This is just like how every type can play different roles in different situations. Sometimes you will use more of your lower functions and sometimes not. But whatever life throws at you, you will always be an ISFP.

 

[crippli]

/devils advocate.

As in the other developing functions thread I started you must remember you won't change who you are

But whatever life throws at you, you will always be an ISFP.

You guys sure about this?

According to the theory, type can't change.

aha, according to the theory. But is the theory valid?

I see there is no belief in change. However, is there anything but change? Isn't it more true that what you can't stop is change?

To OP - drugs seems to alter brain neurology. It seems many become more N through this route. Some fully nuts.

Maybe live as homeless for 3 years. Will you be the same person?

Create new habits. Your brain will adapt. I believe it's far more fluid then what is considered. Change your hormone balance. Very effective substances for altering your brain. And they are all around us. The changes happen slowly enough that you want notice much though. But like becoming old. At some point you just have to admit it.

Kill someone? Save someone? Maybe that will change you?

Deconstruct your preferences. If you have smoked for 10 years. The chance is that you will always feel the temptation, even long after you stopped and it's all purged from your body. The neurological pathways, the habit, will linger. The memory. So care should be considered what changes you do, if you have the choice.

Is the self anything else but mechanisms and memory?

Create new memories, and you become a new person? New reality? For better or worse? Or just an illusion. Your memories will still be there, repressed?




Leaders do this all the time. And it works. The mind will adapt. Almost no matter what. The best imo is to control the change yourself.

 

[XXXX]

^ You're just becoming a stronger or weaker version of you with those alterations in either your environment or approach to life.

You're not changing your brain wiring - what cognition energizes you and what cognition drains you, which determines personality type.

 

[crippli]

^I hear you. And the others.

But why what reasoning or evidence? That you are determined. as you believe.

Your brain wiring does change. So why do you think your personality doesn't change? You don't notice it. But that does not mean it doesn't change. Some more then others, depending on the stimuli. Is it mostly all determined in the womb by estrogen and testosterone washings? And the memory imprinting will be ever lasting? Or all by the gene composition in the moment of conception? And everything that follows is more or less? Like food->more?. Heroin->less? Chess->more Differential equations->more? trauma->less\more? Virginity->?

 

[Adymus]

^I hear you. And the others.

But why what reasoning or evidence? That you are determined. as you believe.

Your brain wiring does change. So why do you think your personality doesn't change? You don't notice it. But that does not mean it doesn't change. Some more then others, depending on the stimuli. Is it mostly all determined in the womb by estrogen and testosterone washings? And the memory imprinting will be ever lasting? Or all by the gene composition in the moment of conception? And everything that follows is more or less? Like food->more?. Heroin->less? Chess->more Differential equations->more? trauma->less\more? Virginity->?

Okay I think the snag you are getting stuck on is the word "Change" and how it is effecting your understanding.

Everyone "Changes" in their life, there is no doubt about that. But what you should understand is that when using the word change there can be many different kinds of "Changes." When we refer to the changing personality, what we are actually referring to is the expansion of personality, it begins at a starting point and expands outwards. That starting point is what you can consider your personality type.

What you are referring to, and what would need to occur in order to change your type, or your starting point, would have to be outright replacement.

I'm going to go back to a point Nysamis made, because she actually nailed the reason why your personality type is unchanging, and I feel her point has gone unappreciated:

So if you are an ISFP, you can't become an INFP. You wouldn't want to; if it were possible it would be like death, because you would need a brain transplant. You would no longer be you.

That is not just rhetoric, and she was not at all exaggerating the magnitude of the change that would occur if your type did somehow change. you literally would no longer be "you."

Let's do a thought experiment shall we?

Okay, image you are you... that shouldn't be very hard. I don't know very much about you, but based on the way you are arguing I think I can safely assume that you are a person that has a very strong desire for knowledge, you readily jump at the chance to contemplate and discuss the mysteries of the universe. You find conversations can often be dull when they lack a certain depth, which is why you gravitate toward people that seem to think like you can satisfy this hunger of yours. You have problems remembering details if that detail is not apart of a greater meaning, but you don't consider that much of a problem, as what is important is the meaning behind the detail, and not the detail itself.

Now imagine something happens to you, some kind of life changing event, or maybe you did a bunch of hallucinogens.

The next morning you wake up, and first thing you want to do is... Play Video games, and then get some good food later on. The philosophies and mysteries of the universe that used to drive you are now completely boring to you, not only that, but you actually have trouble seeing the bigger picture and conceptualizing if there are little or no concrete details involved. But who cares, because all that matters and all that is real is what is happening right now to you anyway. You begin losing your friends, because you are no longer as stimulating of a person to them as you used to be, but that's cool, because they are weird and boring anyway, so you get new friends, who like you are mainly into video games, cars, action movies, etc.


Okay, do you see what I am trying to show you? I just outlined what it would be like if your personality type actually changed. Did you noticed the shift in starting points? Did you notice how both descriptions had familiar ground, and not so familiar ground? They both had Starting points, abilities that they can readily share with others, and that they seek out to share, and they both had parts of their psyche that are rather far and hard for them to range.

Now when the first person, changed into the second person, they so did their strengths and so did their sensitivities. The strength of person A, became the Sensitivity of person B.

That simply does not happen.

When people change they expand, what was there before remains there, but it is sharpened by the mastery of functions that are further out from their starting point. Functions that are near to your Psyche and more conscious, do not drift and become less conscious, that doesn't even make sense, but that is what would happen if your type is to "change." Furthermore, there would be complete shifts in your biology, muscles would actually begin moving differently, as your Functions are connected to your Eyes, mouth, face, and body.

Changing your personality type is akin to changing your DNA, or making yourself grow extra fingers. The personality type is your nature, and your nature precedes everything.

What Evidence do I have? Good Question.

I have pictures, I have video, of myself, my relatives, and other people in the world. People reading does not exist in MBTI, but it does exist in Pod'lair, and through reading people, you can see that I have always been an INTP, I was as a baby, and I am now. Don't get me wrong, I have changed tremendously since then, but I have always started with Ti first then Ne, and so on and so forth.
You can see that my Grandmother was always an ENFP as a young woman in the early 1900's to the day she died four years ago. Not only does changing your type not make sense at all, with Pod'Lair's people reading you can see that it is clearly not happening. that leaves very little room for doubt.

I think the misconception that this thread was founded on is based on the assumption that some types are superior to other types. You can see that in the way the OP worded her friend "curing" being a sensor. You are suggesting that an ISFP develops into an INFP, okay, so then does that mean INFPs develop into ISFPs? But according to you this is a step backward. It is very much like my argument with Boradicus that I had way back when, he thought that he could help INTPs "develop" into ENTPs, but he is basically suggesting we are handicapped and inferior to the ENTPs, and never understood that they are two completely different types that are meant to serve two completely different purposes. He also, didn't realize that he is an INFJ, not an INTP, which I think was the root of his idea that he was turning into an ENTP, when he was actually just strengthening his Fe and Ti modulation. But I digress.


There is no "Cure" to being a sensor, or an intuitive, or anything, and there shouldn't be, because there is nothing wrong with being what they are. They are just another creature that was designed to readily give out their gifts to humanity, in the same way that you were to. Those gifts are very different from yours, and they might even be conflicting at times, but that does not mean that your gifts are ultimately better or worse, they all have their place, and they all have their necessity. They don't want to have their abilities changed to resemble yours for the same reason that you don't want to have your abilities changed to resemble theirs. It is what makes them who they are, and it is valuable regardless if you are capable of appreciating it.

 

[EditorOne]

What the surgeon said:
"Hi. So how does a hopeless sensor.. say an ISFP go about developing into an INFP? Are there any techniques or methods of living which could help/ameliorate/cure their S side? An S who is willing to give it their best and is very cooperative ... (assuming an optimal situation)"

OK so he's not going to change his type, that's been covered. But we as INTPs have had a lot of threads dealing with how we can use our strengths to understand things like feelings so we can better get along in the world of Muggles. So why wouldn't a person aware that there are other ways to think, feel, figure out, make decisions, want to add a bit to his toolbox?
To answer we'd have to figure out how someone I'll overgeneralize as "big on details" can continuously make himself aware that, first, there is a big picture that might matter and, second, how to see it. I've had to do the same thing in reverse, deciding which details matter and which don't for a particular task, so I can bring my limited ability to focus on details to bear. Perhaps the way someone focused on trees becomes aware of a forest is, I don't know, do "step away" mental exercises like asking "OK, what's next and what's after that? Where are all these details leading? What's the point of the whole exercise?" Even, "Which details matter most and Why?" which is the question I use in the opposite direction.
Any help here? It is, after all, a problem requiring analysis.... Can we really leave a problem on the table without trying to solve it more germanely than we've already done? (There were some good thoughts in the previous threads, I'm just trying to slice it smaller so Surgeon can find a foothold. If you go back, a lot of the response are typical INTP and we're trying to communicate with an S person.)

 

[Nysamis]

Hmm, looks like Adymus, et all got here faster than I did. My argument is basically the same, but through a slightly different lens. (Humans all see life through slightly different lenses anyway, depending on how their brain is wired to be a certain type, as well as environmental factors and life experience, etc.) This argument is therefore a series of metaphors and hypothetical situations; everything ties together in the end.

It seems you are considering the possibility of type being malleable and the possibility that type is unchanging as both being equally likely. (This equal weighing of conflicting viewpoints seems to be a disturbing theme in modern Western culture. Given the evidence, is creationism as potentially equally valid as evolutionary biology? Homeopathy with modern medicine?) But I digress. The truth of any matter is out there, no matter if we humans have the tools to discern that yet. Therefore, only one of these answers is correct, and you must try and find falsifiable evidence. Adymus made a lot of good points which contain falsifiable evidence in favor of the claim that type is unchangeable up there, so I will not repeat them.

Another thing to consider is that life is an intricate web of connected systems. There are so many processes that our bodies run without conscious thought, for instance. Your continued survival rests on the power of these bodily systems to do their job. Systems like the respiratory system, the nervous system, the circulatory system, and the reproductive system work so well that is an aberration whenever they are not working properly. Expanding our perspective, humans are also connected to each other in families, tribes, and nations. And these are also interconnected. Consider a family that has been shattered by incestuous rape. The victim's emotional well-being sends signals to the people around her. Perhaps she goes into Child Protection Services. Now taxpayer dollars are being used to protect her and place her with another family. The well-being of the people involved in this small-scale tragedy effects the well being of society as a whole, like a drop of water ripples throughout a puddle. New advances in technology change how people live and how they expect to live. Fancy a life without interior plumbing? The energy infrastructure of every modern country is fundamentally built upon fossil fuel use, and this is why changes in green energy have happened a lot more slowly than environmentalists would hope.

This all basically boils down to the cheesy slogan that no one is an island. You are profoundly influenced by the general culture around you and the systems it currently uses to survive and proliferate. No one but a solipsist with hir head stuck in the ground can deny this; the evidence is all around you. These are but a fraction of a fraction of the examples I could have used.

"What does this have to do with typology?", you might ask. With this perspective, psychology is linked to many other disciplines and humanity and the cosmos at large. So what is true in psychology will be true elsewhere. It'll be as ubiquitous as the Golden Ratio, which shows up throughout the Earth and the Universe. All researchers are dedicated to taking one step further than what humans currently know. (Or they should look for work elsewhere.) Some scientists, for example, will try to recreate a previously conducted experiment, to see if the conclusions are rock-solid. While it looks like these researchers are just doing boring grunge work, it is necessary to have incontestable proof for a certain phenomena. Newton's ideas used to be the cutting edge in physics, but "cutting edge" ideas are not always true. Generations of physicists solidified his ideas so that Einstein could add on to them. And most importantly in light of this argument, they found that his laws permeated the universe. Human beings have adapted to an environment with the gravitational constant of the Earth, after all.

So taking the interconnection of all things into account, consider the fact that there are potentially infinite life experiences. Everything in life is clamoring for your attention. For instance, in the church I grew up in, the preacher would assert that God and Christianity should be the most important thing, bar none, in the churchgoer's life. He would quote scripture to back up this assertion, whether it was directly said or ever so slightly hinted at. Now most stimuli, activities, etc in life aren't as forward as your average preacher, but the same dynamic is going on.

Time for a thought experiment. Consider the plight of two college students. Let's make them identical twins. They both have the same great potential for excelling in their psychology major. The admissions office at the university is very pleased with the selection of these twins. They both go to the same school, which is renowned for its party scene.

To them, both partying and studying have an appeal to them. Consuming alcohol and perhaps some mild recreational drugs is pretty appealing. A partier ends up having wild, crazy stories and ever wilder sex. He gets to meet people from many walks of life without the pretentious sheen of the persona a person projects when sober. Getting to know people when you are drunk - now that's when you'll see the person's true nature.

Studying, while not as immediately gratifying, is much more predictable. If he puts in the work now, it will pay off on the exam. Doing well on essays and exams will get someone a reputation for being a hard worker who is driven to succeed, no matter what the profs throw at him. This will cause at least one of the department's professors to notice the diligent student, and this can lead to recommendations for an internship, and perhaps even a sweet job or admittance to a prestigious grad school upon graduation.

One twin goes the party route. But partying puts a lot of demands on him. He often shows up to class late or hungover. He starts to get behind on his work as a consequence. Sometimes no amount of BSing can make it seem like you know the material, and this is the case with this dude. It doesn't matter if he's eking his way through school with Cs or not - the professors regard him as just another seat warmer. But on the bright side, he has a lot of friends from all around the country. He's seen his pals through thick and thin, and he believes he has seen much more of human nature than he could learn in his psych book anyway. Over his college years, he has amassed many stories about the human condition. He compiles these into a book, which he sells and markets to the general public. Many directors have expressed interest in making a film adaptation.

The other twin studies his hardest. Unlike his brother, this guy does not have as many friends, as too much extracurricular stuff distracts from his single-minded desire to succeed at his major with flying colors. Because many people interpret such behavior as dorky and lame, he has a few close friends, who are also driven to become great psychologists. The guy does get recognition from his professors. He gets an internship with a small psychological survey company that is up and coming in the field, and renowned for its attention to detail and proper statistical procedures. This looks really good on his resume and marks him as someone with potential. He gets into a really good grad school and later becomes a renowned professor. People want to hear his insights at TED and other conferences, and serious scholars read his scholarly articles and books.

Here's the catch. Even though both of these hypothetical people ended up successful, they can not go back and do it over again. Both of their attitudes towards psychology and their findings were indelibly shaped by what activity they prioritized. Even if the partier wanted more recognition in academic circles, it's not like he could go back and redo it all. Studying more would mean he would have less time with his friends. Maybe he wouldn't have gotten that girlfriend who taught him many things about love. His book would be weaker as a result. If he went full-blown academic, he would have ended up like his brother, and his book would not exist. The same could be said for the other twin.

The point is, your experience defines you. Your past defines you. This cannot be changed. In fact, society's past defines you. Surely a lot would be different if 9/11 hadn't happened, and it's only been 9 years. Would there be full-body scanners at the airport? Or would there have been a worse attack instead? What if Al Qaeda waited until they had an atomic or biological weapon? We will never know, but what we do know is that our lives are still profoundly affected in a myriad of ways as a result of that attack.

This is what happens with your brain as it gains new perspective. New information is compared with old information. Your mind does not exist in a vacuum. Someone could tell a creationist like Ken Ham or Ray "Banana Man" Comfort all the many ways their viewpoint is illogical, and they will think that person is mistaken, because they have seen the hand of God the designer, and they have incontestable evidence to back it up. They have a certain view on life, and it has been shaped by their collective personalities and experiences. They could be dead wrong all they want, but the fact of the matter is they do not think they are mistaken. If Banana Man ever thinks he is wrong, he will change his viewpoint. But even if he becomes an evolutionist, his reasons for doing so are based on where he thinks his previous viewpoint went wrong. His new theory would try and make sense of all the times he's interpolated the hand of God. He will choose the best theory that explains what he's seen. It's not like people who change their minds about something are given a new brain. In this day and age it is silly to even consider that.

So why wouldn't type be otherwise? At its essence, type theory of any sort, no matter how mistaken, is making assertions that humans can be categorized. A phenomenon has to be predictable enough to warrant such a claim. Everyone can see that humans have some fundamental differences, and that a quiet child usually ends up a quiet adult. Even if the quiet child turned into an articulate adult, a person can still see that while the former child is now more confident in social situations, the adult still needs time alone to recharge.

This is why an articulate introvert does not an extravert make. A sensor can learn to make sense of the patterns around him, but that does not make that person an intuitive. It just means that the person's view has expanded with age and time, which is what people long to be. At their core, people want to be great. They want to mature. What they want to excel at is based on what they are naturally good at. This is what they prioritize, just like how the first twin went to the parties and the second twin studied hard. Someone like me will always prioritize patterns in the external environment, which is probably why this contains so many damn metaphors. A child INTP might not have all the details down pat on what is logical and what isn't, but they will still be focused on their personal logic. An INTP's logic can expand, and this is done by developing the lower functions. An ISFP's personal values also expand in this fashion. This is the difference between a Super ISFP and a mediocre, overly emotional, unfocused, inarticulate, sensual dilettante ISFP.

People expand. This is change, but this change process is like the change processes elsewhere in the universe. Look at any chemical reaction. You can't end up with magnesium if there wasn't some magnesium in the original set of materials. Everything our brains encounter is like a chemical reaction, refining what we are the best at. But becoming better is not becoming totally different. We have to know where to look or it's all chaos, after all. Life as we know it would be totally different if it rested on this entirely different axiom you are proposing we consider*.

*Cool! That bear just turned into a tiger! Awesome! What will it change into next?! *dun dun dun!* I've always wanted a crocoduck for a pet...

 

[EvilScientist Trainee]

I hate to break the streak of long texts above me,

But I have to say that this thread has so much information regarding 'type change' that it would be painful to see it fade into time.

 

[TheorySurgeon]

Hey! I Agree! Well no, I am the INTP which is why I am on THIS forum I suppose as opposed other intuitive forums, the ISFP I am speaking of is someone very close to me who seems to be struggling in their life and wants nothing more than to become more intuitive.


But I guess, as we have clearly covered - yes indeed this ISFP MAY learn to use their intuitive function more thoroughly however he/she will never truly become an INFP because their brain naturally functions through the eyes of an ISFP. So I guess this ISFP of mine is TOAST!! Haha... but then again I guess ISFPs are the big "complainers" *cough*.

But this brings up a bigger question.. how do children from infancy to about 5 years of age develop into a certain personality type? Is it based on their life experiences? Or could it even be genetic? I wonder if there is a way to "parent" a child to become a specific personality type (yeah.. how T of me right?).

And then again -- yes I agree VERY MUCH so with the tree analogy. We as INTPs tend to look at problems from a much wider POV / more imaginatively as opposed to the INTJ .. the answers I have read are NOT as practical / appropriate based on the question which was given and the knowledge we can infer about the asker ( that being me ) and its interesting how INTPs would tend to answer someone who could very well possibly be an ISFP in such logical and mathematical methods. ISFPs, probably amongst the most likely types to fail their math classes --

What the surgeon said:
"Hi. So how does a hopeless sensor.. say an ISFP go about developing into an INFP? Are there any techniques or methods of living which could help/ameliorate/cure their S side? An S who is willing to give it their best and is very cooperative ... (assuming an optimal situation)"

OK so he's not going to change his type, that's been covered. But we as INTPs have had a lot of threads dealing with how we can use our strengths to understand things like feelings so we can better get along in the world of Muggles. So why wouldn't a person aware that there are other ways to think, feel, figure out, make decisions, want to add a bit to his toolbox?
To answer we'd have to figure out how someone I'll overgeneralize as "big on details" can continuously make himself aware that, first, there is a big picture that might matter and, second, how to see it. I've had to do the same thing in reverse, deciding which details matter and which don't for a particular task, so I can bring my limited ability to focus on details to bear. Perhaps the way someone focused on trees becomes aware of a forest is, I don't know, do "step away" mental exercises like asking "OK, what's next and what's after that? Where are all these details leading? What's the point of the whole exercise?" Even, "Which details matter most and Why?" which is the question I use in the opposite direction.
Any help here? It is, after all, a problem requiring analysis.... Can we really leave a problem on the table without trying to solve it more germanely than we've already done? (There were some good thoughts in the previous threads, I'm just trying to slice it smaller so Surgeon can find a foothold. If you go back, a lot of the response are typical INTP and we're trying to communicate with an S person.)

 

[crippli]

Adymus- I have to think about your post for awhile to see if I can come up with a counter arguments or to comply with no type change. I'm still skeptical.

I'll just address this for now to clarify. Will come back to the rest if I still think my idea has merit after contemplation about your post.

*Cool! That bear just turned into a tiger! Awesome! What will it change into next?! *dun dun dun!* I've always wanted a crocoduck for a pet...

I didn't mean changing into something then you already is. Just tiny changes, like from male to female. The fish apparently change, but did it really? Wasn't it both sexes from the beginning? Or ISFP to INFP-is that really a change? Or just a shift of preferences? We agree on that we all have all 8 functions? So the components are there.

Like when you build a train from lego. You have a train. Take it apart and build a house. It's not a train anymore. Now it's a house. IMO it's the building blocks that is the key. Not the construction. So I don't meant to magically change argon into helium.

What about someone who lack preferences or better, control of the preferences. Would not this person be able to be all types by will alone?

--
So I guess my pov is that an ISFP and an INFP are not different people as separate entities. Just a shift in preferences. One like tomatoes, the other like bananas. What I propose is that the preferences can be reversed. So that both will prefer tomatoes.
--
I am not my mbti type. I am something completely else. But I recognize that some of my preferences can be described by the mbti theory to a degree. But they could also be described by categorization of foods. It's origin(mbti, not jung) was to help people choose the right career I think? Like a restaurant meny will help me choose the dish most compliant with my preference. I don't see it as unlikely that I start dislike something, and get the taste of something else. Expansion of knowledge and or experience has had this occur with me.

Of course If I start eating pizza instead of steak I will be a different person. But does it matter? If I was a fish and changed sex, I would be a different fish. Would that matter? Does the past matter? Would you focus on the old me, or the new me?

So no. I do not think I am still convinced an ISFP can not come to prefer the attributes of an INFP. But I will take a closer look on the arguments provided. This post is just to clarify how I based my idea.

Saying there is NO change of type with MBTI is by first glance imo a bit like the photographer Ansel Adams quote-
"There is nothing worse then a sharp picture of a fussy concept"

 

[Adymus]

Hey! I Agree! Well no, I am the INTP which is why I am on THIS forum I suppose as opposed other intuitive forums,

This assumption could very well bite you in the arse one day.

the ISFP I am speaking of is someone very close to me who seems to be struggling in their life and wants nothing more than to become more intuitive.

I think your starting point should be: Is she really an ISFP?

This is the most critical question of them all. I find that when a person feels that they want to change their type, they are often not what they thought they were in the first place. Or perhaps just have a very poor understanding of what they are. Either way, it is why they do not see their own type as something heroic. But more importantly you have to know precisely what your type is if you want to develop it. Maybe she already is an INFP, but does not match up to your perception of what Intuitives are supposed to be like.
So I should ask you, how do you know she is an ISFP? What exactly is this based on?

So I guess this ISFP of mine is TOAST!! Haha... but then again I guess ISFPs are the big "complainers" *cough*.

Wtf does that even mean? Why would she be toast when every other ISFP on the planet is just fine the way are?

But this brings up a bigger question.. how do children from infancy to about 5 years of age develop into a certain personality type? Is it based on their life experiences? Or could it even be genetic?

They didn't develop into that type, they were born that type, and then continued experiencing and making sense of the world through the eyes and mind of said type.

I wonder if there is a way to "parent" a child to become a specific personality type (yeah.. how T of me right?).

Ask my Mom that same question, she'll tell you all about how she failed as a parent for not raising me into an ENFJ.

*Ahem* I'm going to explain to you the same thing I explained to her. There are some things that are just in our nature, and you cannot change that no matter how much nurture you try to force into it. You'd do a child much better to respect who and what they are, rather than to try and force them to be you.

And then again -- yes I agree VERY MUCH so with the tree analogy. We as INTPs tend to look at problems from a much wider POV / more imaginatively as opposed to the INTJ ..

As opposed to the INTJs who actually start with pure Imagination, yes yes we are so much more imaginative than they are

the answers I have read are NOT as practical / appropriate based on the question which was given and the knowledge we can infer about the asker ( that being me ) and its interesting how INTPs would tend to answer someone who could very well possibly be an ISFP in such logical and mathematical methods. ISFPs, probably amongst the most likely types to fail their math classes --

Its becoming harder for me to answer your questions when the more you talk about your understanding of the situation, the more I realize it is necessary for me to erase your memory and start with a clean slate.

The best rout to development is actually quite simple, keep doing what you love. Go in the direction that your nature is drawing your toward. By that I don't mean lock up and only do what she thinks she is comfortable with. If she really is an ISFP, then she is going to have to discover her Ni through her Fi and Se. So there will have to be a bit of leaving her comfort zone, but she'll enjoy it.

Go out, party, meet people, live life, find romance, experience experience experience, expose her Fi to all kinds of things until those Fi-Se poignancies begin synergizing into greater Ni meaning, just don't stand still, and definitely don't fight against your nature. Don't think it will happen over night, it is a life long journey, but its nothing too complicated.

 

[Taniwha]

Hi. So how does a hopeless sensor.. say an ISFP go about developing into an INFP? Are there any techniques or methods of living which could help/ameliorate/cure their S side? An S who is willing to give it their best and is very cooperative ... (assuming an optimal situation)

Ask questions and then ask more questions, question everything around you and ask yourself why. Learn to pick up patterns around you and stitch them together, relate them to things that are going around you.
Deconstruct ideas by questioning and reform them by alternative finding answers and observing from different perspectives.

Here's the biggie, don't be afraid to dwell within the imagination, its a fantastic world of its own ready to be utilized, anything within the limits of what we know can be created in it. Think of it as the ultimate workshop.

There is no 'cure', and I'm not sure why you would want one. Exercising the mind to think outside of the box will strengthen who you are, and aspects regardless of personality.