Developing/Controlling Fe

[Beholder]

I've been analyzing my relationship with, and the developement of my Fe throughout my life (I'm 21 now), and I'm not quite sure what the conclusions are.
when I was little I remember getting angry alot, crying, always being in love with at least one girl, so I think I was more emotional. I still think I was a lot more in control and reserved than most kids my age.
When I was around 16-17 I was pathetically in love with this girl, until one day I decided I had enough, and just stopped talking to her, and completely detached myself from all emotions I had towards her (after about four months she decided she was in love with me, and then we were together for about a year and a half, but that's besides the point).
That was when I think I started really being in control of my emotions, from that point on almost every emotion I feel is calculated and analyzed and controlled. It's really easy for me to detach completely from anything, or get attached if I want to. I've also found all kinds of tricks to get myself into a desired mood or state of mind nearly at will.
I've developed a serious rivalry and distrust with my Fe (which I referred to as my "puppet" until I discovered MBTI), and have metaphorically locked him up quarantined him, keeping him under intense observation, and I control him almost completely and directly.
What I'm wondering is:
1. I hear (or rather, read) alot about "Developing functions". Do you think I have developed, or stunted my Fe? How would you define a developed Fe, and how would one go about developing it?
2. Do all INTP's go through a process like this? Have you?

I hope I made myself understandable, if you want examples or more details just ask.

 

[Beholder]

Nothing? Seriously?

 

[Owfin]

Well, in order to "develop" Fe, you have to occasionally "let it outside". Our cognitive functions are actually of generally equal strength; the limits they have are imposed on them by our mind (and in some cases rightfully so; any function left unchecked would not leave a pretty picture).

So you can take baby steps, because Fe in this state is like a baby, but it will never grow up if you keep it in stasis.

 

[Awaken]

I think most INTP's, for some reason or another, have repressed their emotions in one form or another. I myself wonder if I would still identify with being INTP if I developed them? I doubt it. Controlling emotions is another story, and probably the source of the problem in the first place. I guess the moral of my story is, good luck finding INTP's with "developed Fe".

 

[Owfin]

[MP3][/MP3]

I think most INTP's, for some reason or another, have repressed their emotions in one form or another. I myself wonder if I would still identify with being INTP if I developed them? I doubt it. Controlling emotions is another story, and probably the source of the problem in the first place. I guess the moral of my story is, good luck finding INTP's with "developed Fe".

They may be harder to identify, but they would probably be happy people (because when you aren't trying to suppress your inferior, that is almost a relief).

 

[Beholder]

[MP3][/MP3]

They may be harder to identify, but they would probably be happy people (because when you aren't trying to suppress your inferior, that is almost a relief).

That sounds alot like me. It's not that I always suppress my Fe, its just that I always monitor it very closely. I let it out alot, and I am a very happy person, much more than the average (INTP or otherwise). In social situations I consciously let it out, and over-emphasize it (for example: yesterday I asked out a girl for the first time in my life, we were 'flirting' and everything,the whole time I made sure to keep a big Dominant-Fe-like smile on my face). Lots of times I will let myself feel depressed, or bursting with joy, but only if there is a logical reason for it (like you said, not suppressing it is a relief sometimes).
Here is my question: does having a 'developed' Fe mean that you are in control of it and know how to use it (not just act the emotions, but actually feel them), or does it mean that it's so powerful that it can overtake you, making you feel emotion?

 

[cheese]

^Everyone should read this. Really. It's very, very interesting. Also, please read Adymus's and/or Auburn's explanation of the functions. They're both very clear but Adymus's is more in-depth, while Auburn's is shorter. (Also worth looking through the 'visual cues' thread, because they further illustrate how the functions actually work in the head - especially the F functions. And maybe the thread on how Thinking and Feeling affect the smile (good breakdown with pics). Actually there're a ton of useful threads in the typology area.

The Feeling function is not about emotionalism, not exactly (as you guessed), and especially not about being powerless and overwhelmed at all times - it's about being aware and unafraid of, and completely in tune with the feelings signals that are constantly being sent out, and experienced, by everyone. 'Feeling signals' would mean all expressions of value in bodily expression, tone of voice and words (value being ethical systems and personal priorities). Also one's own personal signals - being able to discern personal values (Fi - compass) from how you resonate with or against any given event (including the slightest action from another). And using all the information you have *as well as* your ability to tap into the communal emotional field to alter your environment (Fe - dynamics mover. This is why pod'lair talks about Fe users' faces moving in a conscious, feeling way meant to persuade).

Some of this is influenced from pod'lair but it fits well within MBTI too - being an F perhaps means you're statistically more likely to be aware of and own your emotions, but the Feeling function isn't just about having emotions, it's about using them to guide you in life and to connect with others.

There are a bunch of great quotes from that site I linked.

Spoiler

"Each function can (and moreover OUGHT to) be viewed in terms of levels of development. We wish also to specificy five levels of development for each function. In this paper we will focus primarily on the feeling and intuitive functions, as these are comparatively underutilized (and hence underdeveloped). They are, as a result, also most apt to be misunderstood and misrepresented. Although clarifying the nature of feeling and intuition may therefore be more difficult an enterprise, there is the promise of greater overall benefits in doing so.

We will argue that whereas the (T-based) cognitive and (S-based) perceptual sciences are relatively accepted and advanced areas of inquiry, it has not been considered legitimate (until relatively recently) to subject intuition or feeling to serious study. Furthermore, when these functions ARE studied it is often with the use of 'cognitive' (T-based) or perceptual (S-based) frames of reference.

These meta-level (ie, 'theoretical') biases result in a situation in which the definitions of 'thinking' and 'sensing' that are in general usage reflect a comparatively higher level understanding, whereas what is normally meant by the words 'feeling' and 'intuition' refer to comparatively lower levels of accomplishment with respect to those functions.

To put this simply and vividly: although we (as a society) are most likely, for example, to think of logic or philosophical reasoning (higher level examples of thinking) as 'exemplary' activities associated with the thinking function, we are more likely to think of 'hunches' and/or 'premonitions' as exemplary of intuition, although these activities are relatively lower level activities on the continuum associated with that function. Similarly, with the feeling function - we, as a culture, are most likely to think of EMOTIONALITY (which actually requires a comparative low level of development of the feeling function) as paradigmatic of the feeling function.

......

It is unlikely, for instance, that types who have feeling as their least prefered (eg 'inferior' function will develop their capacity to feel at level three or four, and may consequently conceive of level 'two' as comprising the upper limit of the capacity of the function. A theory delineating levels might assist in pointing out how the feeling function extends beyond these arbitrary limits associated with type. It has been our experience with some individuals who are thinking types, for example, that the five level theory has helped them to entertain the possibility that there are levels of feeling that are comparable in sophistication to the levels of thinking that they have developed.

We have elsewhere suggested that current societal biases (toward ST types) are extreme and deleterious. These lead to unfortunate mistakes when it comes to cross-functional comparisons - a tendency to compare apples and oranges: higher levels of development of the thinking function with lower levels of development of the feeling function, and higher levels of development of sensing with lower levels of development of intuition - to the detriment (and continued undervaluation) of the currently undervalued minority types. For example, a capacity for critical reason (level three 'thinking') is often pitted in our society against EMOTIONALITY (level one 'feeling'). The deck is stacked, and a false conclusion is drawn - that 'thinking' is more valuable a function than 'feeling'.

....Even amongst members of the under-represented types, the intuitive and feeling functions may not be as fully developed as the thinking and sensing functions of the more populated types. Thinking and sensing are generally valued and encouraged in WHATEVER type they may occur; conversely, feeling and intuition are undervalued and likewise discouraged."

Last few paragraphs so important. I think a lot of Thinkers really don't realise this. And if you think Fs are silly, ridiculous people - perhaps it's because the ones you know have had their development stunted, and not because of an inherent inferiority of the Feeling function.

Damn, I'll just link the whole page. I really like the way it's explained. It's given me such a cool new and clean perspective, that at the same time makes perfect sense. Like rediscovering MBTI. (Of course, when I attempted to put this shit into practice, I simply ended up disgruntled at the world, especially the yucky, horrible, involved, creepy, emotional F sections.)

I think you'll find a lot of self-professed INTPs are at Level 1, or perhaps Level 2, which are characterised by fear, distrust and disdain of emotions, and attempts at suppression in order not to be overwhelmed. Higher levels involve becoming aware of the emotional 'energy field' always present and in/around us at all times, enabling us to read and connect with people and shape the environment. Also involves learning to accept being part of a group, understanding the whole is greater than the sum of parts, not fearing the loss of individuality, etc (all things INTPs struggle hugely with). This is also why Fe, though a rational function in some ways (as it uses data from the environment to construct plans of attack) is not detached like Te but *involved* - because it needs to be part of the emotional pool in order to move it, and therefore connection and emotion must come into play.

I hope all this makes sense. I'm not sure if I explained it very well. (It's very messy, sorry.) Takeaway point: Fe is not about plain emotions. But when you're a low-level Fe user, it will seem like that because the function is too weak to be put to much use. If you repress emotions and avoid connections then you cut off most contact to the 'field', which means you can't use it. Basically, you have a tool at your disposal but you don't know how to wield it.

I think. As always, anything could get toppled over. But at the moment this is looking pretty nifty.

 

[HDINTP]

Well interesting that with girl same happened to me.

 

[cheese]

Further thoughts on Fe/Fi:
Note: these and the above were just my interpretations of what I'd read - I tried to paraphrase what I'd read above, but I may have misinterpreted things - please correct as you see fit [assuming you've read through the links and know where I'm coming from]. None of this is authoritative.

I'd say that Fi unconsciously affects the world by orienting itself within the field based on how it feels personally, but affecting the world isn't its purpose; guiding the self is. Fe more consciously affects the world by innately understanding/'feeling' how the field is structured and orienting the individual's feelings according to *that* - then using those 'rules' to effect change.

Fe:

Spoiler

So in SiFe, for example, the person will be emotionally oriented to the world based on their understanding, built from years of gathering literal facts, of the world's interpersonal dynamics. They will (or maybe can?) feel in situations the way they are 'supposed' to feel, based on what they unconsciously internalised (Si) in life. I think Jung describes it as a process of continual adjustment of your feelings to the external dynamics, to the point when the reaction is automatic and genuine. Then, because this automatically taps them into the field (because they are feeling, and in touch with what is happening around them), they are able to (well, at least try to) influence other people through their connection to the 'greater whole', and their structured understanding of interpersonal cause and effect. Of course, people don't always play by their rules - whatever specific Si roadmap they developed over the years - which leads to a lot of frustration and further attempts at rigidly recreating what they believe to be 'right' through emotional structure (ie attempts to tap into other people's fields using previously reliable methods). I think this is why NTs have such problems with SFJs. For one thing, the roadmap is up for question with NTs, and for another, attaching and influencing go against the grain of what makes NTs who they are (detached, and logic-based). Aaargh, this isn't a very good way of putting things.

- NiFe on the other hand may be better at manipulation because they see patterns that hold true regardless of context (not literal or context-bound, like Si) and can manipulate them to form the outcome they want. Thus they can seemingly orient themselves in alignment with external Feeling structure, while tweaking the strands around to create the effect they want. Not that SiFe is never manipulative, I just think NiFe may be more naturally capable. (And this doesn't mean Si users are incapable of generalising or abstraction either.)

Summing up:
Fe is meant to move the external dynamic, by orienting itself according to unconsciously internalised data on interpersonal communication. So it uses tone of voice, word choice, body language and the face to push whatever it's trying to sell. Of course, often enough, its 'internalised data' is wonky, so they just come acrosss irritating or creepy. (It's a tool, not magic.) It's aided in this orientation by being able to summon emotion at will (sort of). Because Fe is led by the external rather than internal world, it's pressured into conforming to everyone else over the years till over time the user's emotional reactions are automatically the 'right' ones (even if they have their sneaky true feelings hiding under the surface). So when a Fe user is trying to push something, he'll couch the idea in emotional terms understood by everyone as well as the accepted social conventions of the day, thereby allowing him to summon his emotions to give additional impact. THIS IS WHY INTPs FIND xxFJs SO DAMN CREEPY....BECAUSE THEY ARE! xxTJs are very creepy with their arguments too. Both types twist words and ideas around to fit what they see as the accepted structure - the consensus on 'society' and 'ethics', or on 'logic', in order to convince. A lot of the time there'll be a bunch of holes but each part of the arguments will match, in form, a part of the consensus, making it *appear* correct. We all do this, but because Js push things a lot more than Ps, it's more commonly seen in them.

Fi:

Spoiler

Fi on the other hand is a more... "independent" style of orientation. You position yourself to the world according to how you resonate to its various aspects. You don't align yourself or attempt to manipulate your feelings to align with the consensus, nor do you feel internal pressure to do so (I think). Instead you feel pressure to remain true to your own leadings. (Remember, subjective, ie Introverted, function - that means the individual's inner experience is the boss of it, unlike Extroverted functions, who are bossed around by the external world.) As such, you orient yourself to the world according to what *you* feel is right. Which means you evaluate and choose courses of actions that are in line with your values (which are derived from your emotional reactions). When you want to move things, you tend to moan and moan so much because of how important is it to you that people get fed up and give in to you just to shut you up. This is Fi's great power.

Sorry, went off-track.
Fi is led by the internal world. This means it *doesn't* mould its feelings to fit everyone else. Instead it orients itself to the world using its emotional reactions (from which they derive their values). It's not a tool for moving the world but a *guide* for moving yourself; a compass to tell you where you stand on any given situation and where you want to go. (The same holds for Ti, but Ti is detached and uses different criteria.) This is why Fi users are famous for wanting harmony. What they really want is not to feel bad. It's not as selfish as it sounds though, because for them, their 'yuck' or 'mmm' reaction to the values implicit in any situation *is* their sense of right and wrong - for everyone. (May be wrong here.) Though it's derived subjectively, it's as fiercely believed in as an objective truth to a T. (Blah blah, maybe, kinda waffly here.) This makes them potentially very individual people since they're led mostly by themselves rather than convention. Of course, there isn't actually that much variation in humanity so most of the time you get the standard human run-of-the-mill model that doesn't like conflict and basically really just wants to be loved and survive - which gives Fi people the reputation for being sweet lovable pushovers with perenially hurt feelings cos they're so afraid of conflict. But actually, they can be truly horrible, scary, sadistic, freaky, and so on. One thing they'll always strive to be though is genuine.

So Fe = wrench, Fi = compass. Fe users orient their feelings to the external world in order to be in mutually influential connection with it; Fi users remain true to their reactions in order to navigate the world.

Fi people can still exert an emotional influence on other people though, because they're still part of the general emotional energy field of the world, and whether they mean to or not they are sending out signals just as much as anyone else, and these signals can influence others. But it's not intentional. This doesn't mean Fi people never try to manipulate or convince people of anything. I'm sure a lot of Fi users DO want to convince the world that their system of values is the right one, and when they do, that is definitely intentional. What I mean is, they don't fit their feelings into everyone else's in order to systematically alter the dynamics of a situation based on their internalised understanding of interpersonal communication. Ie they don't consciously use *feelings* or tap into the feeling field to tweak the strands. Instead, they just react, and it's like a smell that affects people regardless. When they *do* try to convince people of anything, it's with Te.

So:
There's a permanent and ever-changing field of Feeling that you can tap into. It's navigated using your understanding of bodily/facial expression, tone of voice, behaviour and empathy. Tapping into it requires awareness of both your own signals (internal and external) and others'. Tapping into it and being able to stay in it requires comfort with your own feelings, and the ability to empathise with others, ie step into their shoes and feel as they do. Manipulating the field with expertise - as with all expertise - involves the relegation of concrete/literal/linear processing (eg "doing A will result in B") to the back of the mind and immerses the individual in a holistic "we" experience that temporarily blurs the line between self and others in a free-flowing exchange of energy.

I want to explain this more clearly but it's not coming right now. :/ Sorry that some of it was repetitive. I may edit later.

Hope this is useful, OP.

 

[Beholder]

First of all thanks, that was exactly what I wanted to know.
I always use the the metaphor of 8-bit pictures to describe language. Words can be almost unrecognizable if you haven't already seen the while picture before (I.E. thought it or understood it). You just explained what I was trying to say, and I guess already knew.
I read the first link you provided, it helped me understand what was going on. I think the 'developement' of a function is ultimately enabled by the integration of different functions. So really each one of those five stages can be divided into quite a few different stages, that one may not go through all of to progress to the next level. I have lots of ideas about this but they aren't directly relevant.
I think that according to that theory, I am at the fourth stage, where me Ne and Ti have almost completely understood my Fe, and learned to cooperate with it, but on a more logical and goal-oriented basis than the seemingly intuitive one suggested in that article.
I just went through the links, turns out I've already read them all (and found a few contradictions between them) except for Adymus's one which I already have open in another tab, part of my endless que of things to read...
I've got much more to say, but I'm writing from my phone (everything I've written on this forum was from my phone) so you know how it is...
But thanks that was really helpful.

 

[Auburn]

Cheese summed it up awesomely!
(still haven't finished the article tho >.>)


Talking specifically about an INTP and developing inferior Fe, though -- the way that manifests masterfully is when an INTP is able to champion for the truth it sees among people.

An INTP not in tune with it's Fe will have no will to influence the social dynamics in any particular direction -- it's enough just to remain off radar and distant from it and safe in one's mental comfort zone. (Indeed, for the most part this not really bad, as INTPs do need time alone.)

An INTP in tune with it's Fe will still lead with Ti and be primarily obsessed with the accuracy of it's own logic position, but will have a will to Champion that truth into the world, and defend/proclaim it as how society should adapt itself to the truths it has discovered.
​

In this way, INTPs can potentially be among the most potent social movers because their Fe concern is sharp/polished and directed by an intensely heavy and well thought out rationale that knows what is right and has a plethora of supporting facts that can counter the arguments that might emerge.

An INTP's Fe "push" has a lot more density in it, but also happens with a lot less frequency. However, to be able to do this masterfully the INTP has to spend ample time contemplating social orders, people, as well as hirself to understand humans in an organic way and develop an accurate position of what could improve that super-organism.

 

[Zionoxis]

Cheese summed it up awesomely!
(still haven't finished the article tho >.>)


Talking specifically about an INTP and developing inferior Fe, though -- the way that manifests masterfully is when an INTP is able to champion for the truth it sees among people.

An INTP not in tune with it's Fe will have no will to influence the social dynamics in any particular direction -- it's enough just to remain off radar and distant from it and safe in one's mental comfort zone. (Indeed, for the most part this not really bad, as INTPs do need time alone.)

An INTP in tune with it's Fe will still lead with Ti and be primarily obsessed with the accuracy of it's own logic position, but will have a will to Champion that truth into the world, and defend/proclaim it as how society should adapt itself to the truths it has discovered.
​

In this way, INTPs can potentially be among the most potent social movers because their Fe concern is sharp/polished and directed by an intensely heavy and well thought out rationale that knows what is right and has a plethora of supporting facts that can counter the arguments that might emerge.

An INTP's Fe "push" has a lot more density in it, but also happens with a lot less frequency. However, to be able to do this masterfully the INTP has to spend ample time contemplating social orders, people, as well as hirself to understand humans in an organic way and develop an accurate position of what could improve that super-organism.

Aside from simple 'push'es, what about just casual interaction? I know that I can go off on a rave to random people about why buying a Mac is a terrible idea and give lists of facts, but that does not mean I have a developed Fe.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Just get to know your Fe. If you know thyself, then you control thyself.

 

[HDINTP]

I can´t control it not really. I don´t like interaction in general but it also depends on people a lot when someone catches my interest and we have got interesting topic to talk about then it is not problem at all.