Degree not needed-- or even necessary? That can't be right...

[sagewolf]

I've been working an office job since September, partly to save up for college, but also to support myself: I've moved back to the States from Eire to apply to US colleges and plug some application holes (SATs, US History, etc.), and in the meantime I need an income. That's the background to this.

Today I was talking to the co-worker I share an immediate workspace with about the college I'm applying to (well, one of them) and it came up that she's leaving in a week or so: she looked for a better job and found one. I told her I
was happy for her and mentioned I was happy just to have this job: I thought that with nothing more than a high school diploma (equivalent: Leaving Cert) I was going to be stuck in fast food, flipping burgers for a year. After that, she sadi that companies like the one I'm in look for people with a high school diploma, or equivalent, without a higher degree: she said they're probably hoping for people who will just get stuck in a rut and stay in the company, so they don't have to train anyone new.

My inner sense of idealism is screaming 'that's not true; learning is important' but my Ti seems to be silently eyeing me and nodding its head solemnly. This is partly (I'll admit ) a blow to my pride, but there's something unsettling about it too, something that disturbs me at a deep, fundamental level. I know (although I can't seem to find relevant supporting statistics on the internet) that a lot of people work jobs almost exactly like the one I have, or jobs with worse pay and prospects. I know that said jobs are an integral support of the worldwide economy. I already sense what the answer to this question is; I don't want to believe it. ...But I need to know.

Having a degree; showing a passion for, or a deep abiding interest in, something, anything; having ambitions and dreams and lofty goals in life... these things aren't a detriment to getting some of the most prominent job types in the world... are they?

 

[merzbau]

that's horrible.. hamstring yourself for the benefit of a comfortable salary?

i have nothing against people who haven't obtained a degree for other reasons, i know quite a few people who've excelled without a signed bit of paper from a university.
but the idea of purposefully avoiding higher education because you think it will appeal to the cynical need for a boss to have indentured slaves to order around, and not get ideas above their station makes me slightly ill.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Bosses seem to hate it when an underling show the s/he is more intelligent. I guess it hurts their pride. The way to advancement is either a) relocate within the company but in a different location (that isn't always possible of course but bigger companies usually have offices in multiple cities) or b) pretend to be just a shade less intelligent, suck up but not too much, show only the ambition to move up to the next level and model your boss as much as possible. Showing unique initiative may actually get changes made if your ideas are good, but you won't get credit for it.

That's been my experience anyways. It's a hideous hideous world out there....

 

[Ermine]

You claim the right to do whatever you want to do, but this is profoundly disturbing. You said so yourself. And yes, a lot of lofty, idealistic things interfere with reality. However, I believe this is a good thing. I don't know about you, but without such idealistic passions, reality is a living hell. And why shouldn't you learn? You say that burger flippers are an integral part of the economy but who ever said you had to be one? There are countless others to take your place, as you have bigger ideas than that.

 

[transformers]

Not a detriment, but not always an advantage either. Experience and connections count for more than education in the long run. That being said, education is good for more than just a career. It broadens your mind, teaches you to think analytically and to be more skeptical of information you receive in your daily life; all things that will help you make more informed decisions. So it's not all bad, just don't expect it to always lead to career magic.

edit: Actually, being overqualified can stop you from getting some jobs. This happened to a friend of mine, who was an overqualified electrical engineer with many degrees and 5+ years of experience - he was the best of the bunch that applied for a job in a hardware store and they gave it to someone else because they expected him to leave the job soon after. I've heard stories of people with PhD's lying about their degrees to get certain jobs too.

 

[EditorOne]

"Having a degree; showing a passion for, or a deep abiding interest in, something, anything; having ambitions and dreams and lofty goals in life... these things aren't a detriment to getting some of the most prominent job types in the world... are they?"

No. Your associate's analysis is wrong. Plausible but wrong, with exceptions noted below.

Major corporations looking to build new facilities, in my direct experience, for whatever reasons, want to locate in areas where there is a work force sophisticated enough to handle their tasks and be innovative in the bargain. Back when everyone worked on an assembly line it might have been different, but the kinds of corporations you'd want to work for in the first place are constantly looking for people who can go higher and higher in the organization and benefit the organization every step of the way.

The process of getting a degree, by the way, should, somewhere along the line, include courses and non-academic experiences that help you think things like this through. It's not just getting your ticket punched so you have the magic paper, and it's certainly not about the content itself in most cases; college should develop you, sharpen your mental and social skills, give you the competencies of thought and action that allow you to become successful in whatever way you eventually define success. If I had it to do over again, I would NOT shun some of the socialization processes available at college, although I'm pretty sure nothing would make me wear a propeller beanie on freshman orientation day like someone foolishly expected of me on Sept. 8, 1967. I would, however, consider pledging a low-key and somewhat disreputable fraternity, joining the debate team, or even trying out for the drama club or band. I have learned that the reward of such things is not in the activity itself (even though some of them turn out to be fun, based on what I see around me). The reward is actually building up the socialization muscles and, indirectly, gaining insight into how people interact successfully. I didn't "get over myself" as a somber doomed writer, loner and rebel in time to do it in college, however, and so had to learn about this stuff later in life.

In the specific thought or premise you've asked us to discuss, a practical and useful mental task is "go upstream." Don't be thinking about the possible effect on life in general of corporations that want a bunch of unpromotables so they aren't tasked with training new hires; even though the premise is wrong, I'm sure there's some idiot middle managers somewhere smugly implementing that flawed policy. Instead, "go upstream" in your own thinking. If there are companies like that, would you even consider going to work for them? Of course not. Now you don't need to think about it any more and can think about other things.

 

[Da Blob]

The experience of college should not be missed! Of course there are colleges and then there are Colleges. It could be the best years of your life, where you can experience both freedom and peers, who really are your peers.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that a degree is not a guarantee of success and as Editor1 said a degree is not going to be a handicap in the type of job you probably wish to have as a career. A degree is just a piece of paper that is the key to unlock certain doors. It really is not a good reflection of one's education or intelligence level.

That being said, college is a good opportunity to identify life-long avocations and vocations. If you are truly blessed you will become one of the few where the two overlap. If not it allows one to avoid the superficiality of being what you do for a living, by pursing your avocation in your free time.

As far as jobs skills, oddly enough, the skill most highly valued at the higher levels is the ability to communicate (degree or not). College provides an excellent opportunity to hone your skills in that area.

 

[sagewolf]

Thanks for your replies... although I think I may have been slightly misunderstood on some counts. I suppose I was just upset and bothered by the implication that learning and ambition-- two things I value highly-- were undervalued in the real world. You'd think by now, I'd be used to the idea that it's not my world out there.

@merzbau and Da Bolb: I may be wrong, but from reading your posts, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not seriously considering not going to college for the sake of being able to keep a boring office job. I'd have to be seriously fscked up in the head to consider that. It's a necessity now, but it's only temporary, and some days, the word 'temporary' is the only thing that motivates me to get up in the morning. (And the prospect of not being able to pay the gas bill and having my heating go out.) I was more upset at the general situation I perceived than at what I thought was going to be the reality of my life. My idealistic streak took a painful blow, that was all. It just wasn't something I could let stew (which is my normal technique when something bothers me).

@IB: Yeah, that was kind of what I thought was the case. Depressing, and a prime case of why I spend so much time with my head in the clouds... I don't lie what the ground looks like.

@Ermine: I know this isn't my problem for any more than the next six months or so. But the fact that this isn't my reality doesn't make it less sad that it is someone else's reality... and that this is the one of the ways the world I live in works.

@Transformers: Well, overqualification I can kind of understand, for the very reason you mentioned, but I was under the impression a Bachelor's was more of a modern standard... something anyone could attain if they set their minds to it. Maybe that's a product of growing up in Ireland, where higher education was, until very recently, free. (As far as I know, they're reinstating fees now. I don't really know: one of my reasons for returning to the states for college was that international tuition at an Irish college actually managed to be more expensive than specialist-art-school tuition in the US; I'm neither a citizen nor a national, so I wasn't eligible for free fees...)

@Editor One: Thank you: you're always full of insight and wisdom. ...Mind you, I don't know how well not thinking about it is going to work. If I could just 'not think', this never would have come up: I would have just dismissed it and picked my sketchbook up the moment I got home, mind and heart unburdened.

 

[merzbau]

i was actually aiming my mock horror more at your co-worker.

i remember similar comments from my parents, in university (or college whichever you prefer) when i'd tell them about some ridiculous work requirement or administrative rigmarole thay'd put us through, expecting a little bit of sympathy, they'd tip a bucket of cold reality over me, saying "well, that's the way the world is, you just do it."
which would leave me feeling an idealistic fool, whining because someone has told him that sticking feathers to his arms and jumping off a cliff is not going to allow him to fly.

higher education has become more accessible in the last 30 years, and isn't the guarantee it used to be that you'll progress to a good job, but if it allows you to put some sort of credential on your CV, it's a good thing.

 

[sagewolf]

^I know what you mean: I've had a lot of similar conversations with my mom. I eventually just stopped bringing up anything that made me upset around her because I got the response, "welcome to Life; now deal with it" a little too often. It got a little crushing after a while, really. I couldn't ask for better parents than I have, but there were some things they just weren't very good at.