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Definition of grok

Jesin

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OK, I've wanted to write about this for a while, but I haven't figured out how to say it until now. I'll start by quoting from a response I wrote to Zero: The Fool, as that is the path my thought process took and that is the best introduction I could come up with:

The one thing you seem to have trouble providing a valid opinion on is yourself. You have some serious self-esteem issues. Where some people turn too much of their criticism outwards and end up horribly arrogant, you seem to have turned most of your criticism inwards and ended up annoyingly self-deprecating. Seriously, you criticize yourself too much. Before you start ranting again about what a terrible person you are, take your flaws and compare them to those of humanity in general. I mean, sure, you're terrible, but as far as people go, you're not actually all that bad.

I think a good approach is to try to recognize and acknowledge all the flaws and good points in both yourself and everything else, understand them and the reasons for them, and then don't let any nonessential flaws bother you and don't get hyped up over any irrelevant or utterly unimportant good points. That happens to be the best definition I can come up with for what it means to grok.

-----

There. I hope I wasn't too incoherent.

Does anyone else have anything to say about any of this, whatever I mean by "this"?
 

Dissident

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You would need pure objective thinking to be able to do that, i dont think thats posible, its something to aim for, but subjectivity is always there. We have: Subjective validation (Forer effect), Dunning-Kruger effect, self serving bias, wishful thinking, etc, etc.
Im not so sure what does this have to do with groking tho.
 

Jesin

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That's why I said "try to". It isn't perfect, and it is possible to get something entirely wrong, but you can usually get a reasonable approximation. If you don't try, you never fail, but you never get anything even approaching success, either.
 

Zero

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Well, my own issues, which seem to be your example, are not as simple as weighing the good and bad.

As a matter of fact my issues are likely deeply rooted in my relationship with my mother and having a learning disorder and difficulties at school at an early age. It just so happens one does not go a life-time living with scars of abnormality, "friendlessness", pseudo-deafness and difficulties in social environments, feeling pointless, useless and stupid and simply say "Here's the bad and here's the good". Sure, I know I have good qualities, but also a lot of complex emotional issues that are like knots and are probably best handled by people I can come into real physical contact with and who can help me work through my issues.

That or I have to let time and understanding of myself help unravel them. Which I feel it somewhat has with MBTI, but I still have trouble seeing where I fit in and what use I am. Aside from everything else I was conditioned to be social and kind. My mother is an ESTP. There's only so much sensing types can really see and understand. Now that I understand it better and figured out the differences I hold less resentment. Still certain conditioning has stuck and situations that I feel haven't been completely resolve. I'm not always good at expressing myself either.

I know everyone has their problems. I suppose mine stick out because I lack an inflated ego. I resolve to being more of the seconding guessing, sad type of person (specifically here since I'm testing the waters around, apparently, the most ultimately intelligent, super people in the universe, only rivaled by INTJs "the masterminds") I'm still unsure that I am an INTP or that I'll fit in here (even if I am an INTP)... I'm pretty certain I've never been extraordinarily intelligent or intellectual. My environment made me want to refrain from particularly expressing my opinion.

I'm not particularly thrilled that I am part of your example or that you feel you have any authority to advice people how to approach their issues.

Basically: Your Approach is Simplistic and I'm Offended.

~

Your approach is crude and makes me feel more defensive.

In dealing with emotional problems and showing sympathy you communicate issues and the emotional reaction that the person appeared to have to them. In traditional sympathy this includes relating to the other person by recalling your own issues and finding a place of understanding with them.

In the case of empathy the person giving it simple acknowledges what another person says.

Er this is all from my Basic Human Potential class... I hope I'm recalling it right. The Sympathy exercise we addressed specific issues with the pain they seemed to have and in this case I believe the person could correct the feeling. In the empathy exercise (which came before the sympathy) people only stated back to the person what they'd said.

What you did appears to be "You have problem. I will fix you. This is how you're suppose to do it." You're basically like every person, including my mother, who has failed to help me, because you're trying to fix.

If you're talking about grok as in sympathy and empathy you haven't accomplished your goal. It is never Sympathy or Empathy or helpful to try to FIX someone. Sympathy and empathy are tools used to help people trust other people and therefore making a safety net. My teacher was avid that after we began the class and the trust was formed in the class, no one else could join. Because the feeling of safety with our peers was the first step in the process.

If people don't trust you or feel like you understand them or sympathize with them they will get defensive when you try to fix them. Also if people don't feel like they're in a safe environment or are always on the look out for attacks they won't ever reveal their real selves.
 
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Zero

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Zero's Thought Process:

Jesin's discussion > Definition of grok

Ill council > semantics

Replies = ?

Ill council < semantics

Jesin's definition = semantics

Thread = semantics

Grok = Slang

Slang + Semantics= Subjective Opinion on Semantics (Boring)

Subjective= ??????

Boring= -Zero

Realization + Thread= Irritation
 
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Jesin

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You're right. I seem to have gone and posted a half-formed idea again. I do that sometimes. I only realized this was a bad idea about a day after I had already posted it. The idea I posted has lead me to a few other, better ideas, but the original one was not good at all.

As for trying to "fix" you, yes, it does seem like that's what I was doing, and yes, it is annoying. I can't believe I just did that! I tried to make it more like, "Here's an idea to consider, it may or may not help, I hope it does", but I failed. Dismally.

I'm starting to regret making this thread. Sorry about all this. Thanks for deflating me, though; I needed that.

Maybe I can't trust myself to start threads. It often doesn't turn out well. I'll keep posting replies, but I think I won't be starting any new threads for a while.

How is it that I'm this socially awkward even on this forum?
 

Zero

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It's fine. Even I'm not sure if the thread I made before was a good idea. I kind of let it go, but I could've definitely phrased it better. INTP on and offline I guess... My greatest difficulty, specifically on this forum and MBTI forums, is dealing with whether or not I really am one.

That aside, after I calmed down I did feel like I got to contribute something I had learned at my Basic Human Potential class. Stuff I didn't really know before, but once my teacher explained empathy vs sympathy I found I wished more people were simply empathetic towards me. Sympathy's okay, but sometimes I want to know people are paying attention and even more so, hearing back at me my own thoughts makes me have to re-process them. When I undergo an emotional crisis it takes me month to sort through it. I'm probably still not (entirely) recovered from my last emotional crisis which happened around October last year.

It would certainly be nice if I was the sort of person who could look at my own emotional life completely objectively. The problem is that I still have emotions and issues connected to it. Thus, even as an INTP, it's hard to deal with it completely objectively (which I might argue isn't an N types strong suit anyway. S types deal with hard facts and logic and details...). I can certainly think though my mistakes and how this last emotional crisis affected me and how I could best avoid it in the future. It still doesn't really recover that emotional part of me, which wonders what I did wrong in a completely different way. I felt it was me, because the person who I had this argument with still seems to be thriving in the community we "crossed blades". I lost and was blind-sided by the social "aftermath".

But it seems I was a bit confused about the thread to begin with and didn't get that it literally had to do with definition(?). I'm still confused as to whether that was the reason or not.
 
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