Deep Sadness, Love, Relief, and a Theory

[Milo]

The more emotions I experience myself, the greater my empathy and awareness of the suffering of others becomes. The contrast of my recent explosion of happiness and fulfillment from falling in love with my dissatisfaction with the current moment of high-stress, full time work along with starting online school and moving into my new apartment while being alone most of the time has broadened my understanding of other's emotions and my own.

New worries and fears that I've never had before are forming, perhaps as the result of more responsibility and the fact that I now have something to lose because for once in my life, I care very deeply about something. Deeper than I have ever cared before. It is not that I have never cared deeply about something. It is that this new thing has expanded my care to the point that my worries cause much more affliction than before. I fear that if I ever do lose this thing, I will fall into a despair far more terrible than I have ever experienced.

The feeling, though, has passed. And the catalyst for relieving it was communicating with someone. The someone whom is the something I care about deeply. Our conversation gave me the conformation I needed to relieve my worries.

The lesson I learned from this is that maybe, just maybe, emotional problems are better solved with another while thinking away the problems is only a temporary fix. After all, the feeling I get when talking to someone I trust can not be substituted with thoughts. Only the perceived presence and sincerity of another can bring about this good feeling.

Which brings me to another theory:
Perhaps this feeling can be artificially made with the belief in a higher being. Believing that this higher being cares for you, and prayer/communication with it/him/her brings about a similar relief. Relief from the human condition which causes us to suffer all these unnecessary worries that only darken our lives.

 

[SpiralHacker]

Higher self-awareness and growth certainly leads to higher awareness of others, and a part of self-awareness includes understanding self in relationship. Jung said that not everybody makes it to full maturity in their lifetimes, but that we mature and grow through the process of integrating ourselves, gaining greater knowledge of the psyche and that this then enables us to understand it in others as we age into the Wise Old Man or Woman archetypes. I think there is some truth in his ideas.

I get the impression that your concern and anxiety stems from a feeling a greater responsibility that you feel comes from this awareness. If this is so, then you might be missing another part of awareness which is the awareness of the separation between you and other (there is an inter-connectedness as well but also a separateness). You are one part of of a big mosaic and you are not responsible for everybody and every thing; you are responsible for yourself and others are responsible for themselves. You can't be the grand caretaker even if you wanted to be; such an effort would just lead to a very unhealthy state of grandiose thinking, control issues, self-confidence problems and ridiculous stress. Recognize the boundary between you and others and you will be an even greater you and even more able to do what you wish in this world.

A friend certainly helps in working things out. For one, they can provide a mirror, helping to cut through misconceptions about yourself and your situation. Although not everything they say may be helpful, we benefit from the knowledge and perspectives of another. Also our extraverted feeling feels more assured when we are in alignment about tough matters with those that are important to us. This also strengthens connection with the friend and research shows that having close friends is beneficial to well-being.

Regarding your another theory: I think there is value in what you shared but I have nothing to say about that at this time.

I hope you find parts of this helpful in figuring it out.

 

[Da Blob]

Love is therapeutic and a true Friend can offer more in the way of help than many professional therapists.

 

[snafupants]

I fear that if I ever do lose this thing, I will fall into a despair far more terrible than I have ever experienced.

Serious question: are these types of high-risk, high-reward tightrope scenarios ideal, especially as regards long-term emotional health?

I see it as wagering an entire life savings on one blackjack hand - you might win, but losing will hurt like hell. Won't you get burned at least one time per one hundred?

Wouldn't feeling good without the external hinge be better?

 

[redbaron]

 

[The Introvert]

Your philosophical realizations and thought processes are similar to mine, Milo. The fact that you have Lennon as your avatar is for me, the icing on the cake (I'm a huge Beatles fan, specifically John). Just wanted to let you know that much of my lurking involves reading through your posts (however creepy that might sound).

Which brings me to another theory:
Perhaps this feeling can be artificially made with the belief in a higher being. Believing that this higher being cares for you, and prayer/communication with it/him/her brings about a similar relief. Relief from the human condition which causes us to suffer all these unnecessary worries that only darken our lives.

I do not understand how people can vehemently argue against the existence of some sort of divine being. It would seem to me that those who resort to defilement of another's beliefs are simply insecure with their own.

I hope that you continue your quest for enlightnement, and I hope that you continue to share your thoughts with all of us here.

 

[Milo]

Higher self-awareness and growth certainly leads to higher awareness of others, and a part of self-awareness includes understanding self in relationship. Jung said that not everybody makes it to full maturity in their lifetimes, but that we mature and grow through the process of integrating ourselves, gaining greater knowledge of the psyche and that this then enables us to understand it in others as we age into the Wise Old Man or Woman archetypes. I think there is some truth in his ideas.

I get the impression that your concern and anxiety stems from a feeling a greater responsibility that you feel comes from this awareness. If this is so, then you might be missing another part of awareness which is the awareness of the separation between you and other (there is an inter-connectedness as well but also a separateness). You are one part of of a big mosaic and you are not responsible for everybody and every thing; you are responsible for yourself and others are responsible for themselves. You can't be the grand caretaker even if you wanted to be; such an effort would just lead to a very unhealthy state of grandiose thinking, control issues, self-confidence problems and ridiculous stress. Recognize the boundary between you and others and you will be an even greater you and even more able to do what you wish in this world.

A friend certainly helps in working things out. For one, they can provide a mirror, helping to cut through misconceptions about yourself and your situation. Although not everything they say may be helpful, we benefit from the knowledge and perspectives of another. Also our extraverted feeling feels more assured when we are in alignment about tough matters with those that are important to us. This also strengthens connection with the friend and research shows that having close friends is beneficial to well-being.

Regarding your another theory: I think there is value in what you shared but I have nothing to say about that at this time.

I hope you find parts of this helpful in figuring it out.

Whenever I see or am aware of suffering, my empathy immediately kicks in and puts me in the situation they are in. It allows me to help others very well, and I always sincerely want to help and sometimes cannot help myself. I could even see myself helping out someone who does awful things against humanity with his or her psyche to help give them some inner peace. It is automatic for me. If I see something on T.V. I am less empathetic, but as I experience the emotions myself, I think of the countless number of people who are also feeling the same pain, so I try and find the cure for myself and since this happens frequently to me, I feel like I am very well rounded in finding solutions for various problems.

I have tried before to implement what you have just stated, but it only brings me more pain because it builds up inside of me. I seem to see a certain kind of sadness in most people, but there are some that I don't see it in. Again, I just can't help it. It's a common INFJ thing from what I've seen on various sources online. Perhaps the same thing happens when I talk to a friend who is happy. I begin to empathize their feelings and that is really what makes me feel better.

Oh, and to add to the theory. I feel like Jesus saw God as the "ideal person" perhaps empathizing with this ideal person allows this ideal person to manifest into one's personality. It could be an INFJ thing, but I'm sure empathy resides in most people. But, again, Jesus was supposedly an INFJ.

 

[Duxwing]

The more emotions I experience myself, the greater my empathy and awareness of the suffering of others becomes. The contrast of my recent explosion of happiness and fulfillment from falling in love with my dissatisfaction with the current moment of high-stress, full time work along with starting online school and moving into my new apartment while being alone most of the time has broadened my understanding of other's emotions and my own.

New worries and fears that I've never had before are forming, perhaps as the result of more responsibility and the fact that I now have something to lose because for once in my life, I care very deeply about something. Deeper than I have ever cared before. It is not that I have never cared deeply about something. It is that this new thing has expanded my care to the point that my worries cause much more affliction than before. I fear that if I ever do lose this thing, I will fall into a despair far more terrible than I have ever experienced.

The feeling, though, has passed. And the catalyst for relieving it was communicating with someone. The someone whom is the something I care about deeply. Our conversation gave me the conformation I needed to relieve my worries.

The lesson I learned from this is that maybe, just maybe, emotional problems are better solved with another while thinking away the problems is only a temporary fix. After all, the feeling I get when talking to someone I trust can not be substituted with thoughts. Only the perceived presence and sincerity of another can bring about this good feeling.

Which brings me to another theory:
Perhaps this feeling can be artificially made with the belief in a higher being. Believing that this higher being cares for you, and prayer/communication with it/him/her brings about a similar relief. Relief from the human condition which causes us to suffer all these unnecessary worries that only darken our lives.

*wearing overalls, pops the hood on Milo's skull* Wooowee, Jethro, take a lookee here, I think he done slipped a belt-- OH SWEET MOTHER OF ALTERNATORS! RUN, JETHRO! IT'S GONNA BLOW!

No, no, I'm just kidding. You look fine... except for the God part, that's not good form. You see, as SpiralHacker pointed out, you're likely under unsustainable stress from your new lifestyle; such stress cannot be handled without heavy-duty coping mechanisms. One coping mechanism is prayer, but it's only a crutch-- a very addictive crutch. Praying to a God that you believe in only offers temporary relief from your stress, guilt, anxiety, and other discontents; every week you need another dose. Please, for the love of logic, don't get trapped in that cycle like I did. Moreover, belief in a God itself can stunt your moral and philosophical growth by providing you with ready-made axioms instead of allowing you to reach your conclusions yourself. Consider the difference between the two one of subtlety and nuance: would you, as another example of this choice, rather have your best cake based on Betty Crocker or your own experimentation? The former is easier, but the latter ultimately more authentic. Therefore, due to the dangers of religion and faith, I highly recommend maintaining a close eye on God-related thoughts lest you become hooked on God, as it were.

Apart from that, you need someone real who can help you with these issues. Their insight and input far exceed ours, even if we are Ti-doms for whom abstract logic is a walk in the park.

Hang in there, Milo!
-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

Serious question: are these types of high-risk, high-reward tightrope scenarios ideal, especially as regards long-term emotional health?

I see it as wagering an entire life savings on one blackjack hand - you might win, but losing will hurt like hell. Won't you get burned at least one time per one hundred?

Wouldn't feeling good without the external hinge be better?

I think it would be. But perhaps it is only a psychological thing. I rationally know that I should not rest all of my happiness on my relationship, but sometimes the irrational comes out, and that is what happened.

I feel like the ideal way to go about a relationship is to love the person, but do not expect anything in return, which is what I've been going between. I also have no other people to connect with in this town that I moved to. Kind of just moved here on a whim to see how I'd do. The girl I came for has so much in common with me its unbelievable. We have a really good connection, so I went with my gut which is what I do more than not. :P Haha

 

[Milo]

*wearing overalls, pops the hood on Milo's skull* Wooowee, Jethro, take a lookee here, I think he done slipped a belt-- OH SWEET MOTHER OF ALTERNATORS! RUN, JETHRO! IT'S GONNA BLOW!

No, no, I'm just kidding. You look fine... except for the God part, that's not good form. You see, as SpiralHacker pointed out, you're likely under unsustainable stress from your new lifestyle; such stress cannot be handled without heavy-duty coping mechanisms. One coping mechanism is prayer, but it's only a crutch-- a very addictive crutch. Praying to a God that you believe in only offers temporary relief from your stress, guilt, anxiety, and other discontents; every week you need another dose. Please, for the love of logic, don't get trapped in that cycle like I did. Moreover, belief in a God itself can stunt your moral and philosophical growth by providing you with ready-made axioms instead of allowing you to reach your conclusions yourself. Consider the difference between the two one of subtlety and nuance: would you, as another example of this choice, rather have your best cake based on Betty Crocker or your own experimentation? The former is easier, but the latter ultimately more authentic. Therefore, due to the dangers of religion and faith, I highly recommend maintaining a close eye on God-related thoughts lest you become hooked on God, as it were.

Apart from that, you need someone real who can help you with these issues. Their insight and input far exceed ours, even if we are Ti-doms for whom abstract logic is a walk in the park.

Hang in there, Milo!
-Duxwing

I only presented that as a theory of what may have been going in the mind of Jesus. I am not practicing it. I am very interested in a practical perspective to gain from religion. I have not yet found one that is suitable for me yet though. Although I did just see a clip from a movie that said that people use God as a higher power that always backs them up telling them they are right and everyone else is wrong. Which is why forgiveness was implemented to forgive the others for their wrongness even though it is a misconception. But the forgiveness part is supposed to be some sort of barrier to stop the believer from using this misconception/state of mind for bad.

 

[Milo]

On another note. I must emphasize what the main discovery was here. It is that sometimes logic cannot be the answer for happiness. Psychologically, it seems that it is not the logic, but the meanings associated with the words that create a feeling that is indescribable in language. Making unique feelings for everyone due to the complex associations made in one's life. The type of feelings I speak of can be felt when listening to different kinds of music. You get the essence of many feelings depending on the structure and words chosen in the song.

Right now I feel like the secret to creating one's own happiness lies in their own mind, how you have associated everything. You need to bring in the things that make you feel good into your life, focus on them, and think of them often (in the form of imagery, or affirmations, or thinking of anything that means something intrinsically good to you). Of course these things are all subjective based on the associations you have made in your life. This could also be a form of positive psychology. You can't focus on the part that it is not real either.

Maybe this is common sense to some of you, but for me, I have always tried to rationalize my happiness. It only seems to be a temporary fix most of the time.

Try this. Believe that life is easy. Everything is so simple, so why should you complicate things? If you have some of the same associations in your mind as me. It makes life seem that much more bearable and even more enjoyable. Notice that there is no logic. Just that I have associated living with easy and made it a preconception that filters through my thoughts.

I am not so sure it will work if you are in a heavy despair though. My recommendations for solving that would be to seek a true friend to converse with. You don't even have to talk about your problems. Just be with someone or a group that usually make you feel happy, then you may be ready to start using the techniques I have mentioned.

(Remember that most of the things I post are actually my thoughts, I am trying to help myself just as much as I am trying to help anyone else. Plus, I enjoy getting feedback and comments. So don't think I am trying to be some sort of guru and thinking that I am 100% correct. I just usually say things like this and it usually sounds like I'm saying it like it is the ultimate truth, but it just looks that way)

 

[Duxwing]

On another note. I must emphasize what the main discovery was here. It is that sometimes logic cannot be the answer for happiness. Psychologically, it seems that it is not the logic, but the meanings associated with the words that create a feeling that is indescribable in language. Making unique feelings for everyone due to the complex associations made in one's life. The type of feelings I speak of can be felt when listening to different kinds of music. You get the essence of many feelings depending on the structure and words chosen in the song.

Right now I feel like the secret to creating one's own happiness lies in their own mind, how you have associated everything. You need to bring in the things that make you feel good into your life, focus on them, and think of them often (in the form of imagery, or affirmations, or thinking of anything that means something intrinsically good to you). Of course these things are all subjective based on the associations you have made in your life. This could also be a form of positive psychology. You can't focus on the part that it is not real either.

Maybe this is common sense to some of you, but for me, I have always tried to rationalize my happiness. It only seems to be a temporary fix most of the time.

Try this. Believe that life is easy. Everything is so simple, so why should you complicate things? If you have some of the same associations in your mind as me. It makes life seem that much more bearable and even more enjoyable. Notice that there is no logic. Just that I have associated living with easy and made it a preconception that filters through my thoughts.

I am not so sure it will work if you are in a heavy despair though. My recommendations for solving that would be to seek a true friend to converse with. You don't even have to talk about your problems. Just be with someone or a group that usually make you feel happy, then you may be ready to start using the techniques I have mentioned.

(Remember that most of the things I post are actually my thoughts, I am trying to help myself just as much as I am trying to help anyone else. Plus, I enjoy getting feedback and comments. So don't think I am trying to be some sort of guru and thinking that I am 100% correct. I just usually say things like this and it usually sounds like I'm saying it like it is the ultimate truth, but it just looks that way)

Yes, but you are a Ni-dom. For you, life without logic is quite easy; you just live in your own world, taking things in via intuition. For an INTP, life without logic is unbearable: logic our bread and butter from dawn 'till dusk. Without it, I'd personally feel very empty and sad inside. Logic, really, is like my bestestestest (not a word, but I really want to get the point across) teddy bear that I hug all the time and snuggles me when I'm feeling down. Note that the teddy bear isn't just a teddy bear, it's also Mama Bear, and it'll bite the head off anyone trying to brainwash me. In other words, I think that your philosophy will work well for you, but I live for logic.

Oh, and phew, I thought that you were going to turn into our forum's religious nut for a second there. *hick voice returns*

Jethro! C'mon back here! Darn thang just needs an oil change!

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

Very true. That is why I value everyone else's perspectives. Perhaps this is the cause of my unhappiness? I've been using my Ti way more than I am supposed to because of how I was raised and from my life experiences. I love making up random things. My favorite thing to do as a kid was make random videos. I was so good at making random plots and naturally have a very artistic perspective and also am a great writer when I need to be. My teachers always said that my papers were very inspirational and insightful though I really lacked in the research papers. Good at math and chemistry, but do not enjoy it. My favorite thing to do is make up things and invent new ideas and applications for things in my head.

I feel like now I have a much better understanding of my own emotions. I am more leaning towards experiencing the outside world and my imaginations rather than being surprised by my emotions and experiencing myself creating a hyper-sensitive like effect. I find myself asking "how does this make me feel?" way more often when I used to just feel it and become confused and try to cope it away because it would usually filter into some sort of anxiety from the intensity.

Don't get me wrong though. I can be quite logical when I am inspired or feel threatened, though it is very rare. Though when it happens, it is a full force thing that surprises even me after the episode ends. Sorry for the ramble. Haha

 

[Duxwing]

Very true. That is why I value everyone else's perspectives. Perhaps this is the cause of my unhappiness? I've been using my Ti way more than I am supposed to because of how I was raised and from my life experiences. I love making up random things. My favorite thing to do as a kid was make random videos. I was so good at making random plots and naturally have a very artistic perspective and also am a great writer when I need to be. My teachers always said that my papers were very inspirational and insightful though I really lacked in the research papers. Good at math and chemistry, but do not enjoy it. My favorite thing to do is make up things and invent new ideas and applications for things in my head.

I feel like now I have a much better understanding of my own emotions. I am more leaning towards experiencing the outside world and my imaginations rather than being surprised by my emotions and experiencing myself creating a hyper-sensitive like effect. I find myself asking "how does this make me feel?" way more often when I used to just feel it and become confused and try to cope it away because it would usually filter into some sort of anxiety from the intensity.

Don't get me wrong though. I can be quite logical when I am inspired or feel threatened, though it is very rare. Though when it happens, it is a full force thing that surprises even me after the episode ends. Sorry for the ramble. Haha

You're not rambling, you're interesting. Enjoy yourself, then, as the INTP's fight in the void; we'll get out of there eventually, by hook or by crook.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

"Don't worry about a thing because every little thing is gonna be alright."

Faith? A knowing that relieves all psychological pain?

I come to this answer quite often, but remembering this lyric from Bob Marley seems to expand on it in the way it was meant to be understood.

 

[Duxwing]

"Don't worry about a thing because every little thing is gonna be alright."

Faith? A knowing that relieves all psychological pain?

I come to this answer quite often, but remembering this lyric from Bob Marley seems to expand on it in the way it was meant to be understood.

Care to elaborate?

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism


So It Goes...

 

[Milo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism


So It Goes...

Well it looks like I am a stoic then. This also seems to tie in with the concept of "The Tree of Life" also, which is what I used as way to see the same thing the Stoics did.

What are your thoughts?

@Duxwing

The meaning I was trying to portray is that you can not change the universe, so you must accept everything, and you might as well believe that nature has something good for you in it. Thus meaning that you should not question or try to figure out your destiny. Only take the path that you wish to take in the current moment. Do not question if it is right or wrong, because it is right if it is in your nature.

You may think that questioning it is in your nature too, and perhaps it is, and discovering a solution such as the one I am presenting is the next psychological stage of the mind.

"All you have is what you want."

"There are two goals in life. The first is getting what you want. The second is to enjoy it"

Now I'm sure a bunch of people are gonna be like "So this means I can kill people?" Because, personally, I really do not understand why killing people brings someone satisfaction. Perhaps it is because I see the good in everyone and do not wish to add conflict to their lives by hurting them, but my reasoning just simply does not even consider killing people for no reason as something I'd want to do. That is why I simply do not consider it as a maxim for my arguments.

 

[Duxwing]

Well it looks like I am a stoic then. This also seems to tie in with the concept of "The Tree of Life" also, which is what I used as way to see the same thing the Stoics did.

What are your thoughts?

@Duxwing

The meaning I was trying to portray is that you can not change the universe, so you must accept everything, and you might as well believe that nature has something good for you in it. Thus meaning that you should not question or try to figure out your destiny. Only take the path that you wish to take in the current moment. Do not question if it is right or wrong, because it is right if it is in your nature.

You may think that questioning it is in your nature too, and perhaps it is, and discovering a solution such as the one I am presenting is the next psychological stage of the mind.

"All you have is what you want."

"There are two goals in life. The first is getting what you want. The second is to enjoy it"

Now I'm sure a bunch of people are gonna be like "So this means I can kill people?" Because, personally, I really do not understand why killing people brings someone satisfaction. Perhaps it is because I see the good in everyone and do not wish to add conflict to their lives by hurting them, but my reasoning just simply does not even consider killing people for no reason as something I'd want to do. That is why I simply do not consider it as a maxim for my arguments.

Unfortunately, just being opposed to killing doesn't make it wrong in your philosophy, and the immediate gratification of every impulse will lead to Sadism (the philosophy advocated by Sade). I recommend adding some ethical principles like "Thou shalt not kill" and "No raping people" and "Torture is evil, mmkay?" which are bounded by the principles of self and other defense.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

We'll it would be my last resort. Which means it will probably never happen because I can not describe to you how wild my intuition can get in order to solve a problem.

For myself, I do not need these absolute rules, and I can only speak for myself in hopes that I can reach out and communicate my ideas effectively to others.

Another quote (I am quoting things from my memory and do not know how accurate they are or who they are from) "A person in their own reasoning is rarely in the wrong."

 

[redbaron]

Another quote (I am quoting things from my memory and do not know how accurate they are or who they are from) "A person in their own reasoning is rarely in the wrong."

You realise that quote is intended as a back-handed insult, right?

 

[Duxwing]

We'll it would be my last resort. Which means it will probably never happen because I can not describe to you how wild my intuition can get in order to solve a problem.

For myself, I do not need these absolute rules, and I can only speak for myself in hopes that I can reach out and communicate my ideas effectively to others.

Another quote (I am quoting things from my memory and do not know how accurate they are or who they are from) "A person in their own reasoning is rarely in the wrong."

Well, if you want to go the Ni-route, I can't stop you. All logic aside, you're a good person in my book.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

You realise that quote is intended as a back-handed insult, right?

We'll based on my bank of knowledge and system of reasoning, it isn't. Based off of your's, it is.

Point proven. Haha

 

[Da Blob]

Hmm, some themes from Vonnegut and the Bible popping up on this thread. I don't have a concordance of Vonnegut quotes so here are these...

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Phillipians 4

If one learns to focus on the good, when the forces of depression calls one to pay attention to the bleak, one can avoid a great trap. If one can learn to focus on all that one has instead of all that one lacks, a second trap can be avoided. If one can learn to be content with the necessities that are actually needed, then one avoids the trap of endlessly chasing that which is not needed to gain contentment.

Stoicism was incorporated into mainstream Christianity rather quickly, as a rather practical attitude to deal with the frustrations and disappointments in life. Stoics survived while many of the followers of other Greek Philosophies perished. some things never change, and one of them may be basic human nature (?)

In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21

A fool's way is right in his own eyes, but whoever listens to counsel is wise.
Proverbs 12

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.
Proverbs 21

“You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,
Deut. 12

A rich man is wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has discernment sees through him. Proverbs 28

EDIT: Well here's just a few Vonnegut quotes for good measure

Be careful what you pretend to be because you are what you pretend to be.

I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.

What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.

Still and all, why bother? Here's my answer. Many people need desperately to receive this message: I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.

 

[Milo]

@Da Blob

Is there a condensed, straight-forward, secular version of the bible somewhere? Because I feel like someone should write one if there isn't. Maybe you could write it and sell it? I'd buy it, but you have to promise to keep your complex analogies out of it, or at least explain them afterwards so they are fairly clear because I'm pretty sure my preconceptions (everyone has them) easily cause me to misinterpret the message you are trying to get across.

 

[Da Blob]

I really do not know and perhaps I really should write some verse by verse commentary. Unlike others though I look at the Bible as a psychological text, so I do not know how many would understand the message, as I have heard it. I will be more than glad to supply commentary on specific scripture on request via PM or even on occasion just to irritate certain atheists on the forum.

It seems to me, that the Bible is not about God, as much it is about mankind.

It seems also to address the question "Why?" a thousand times more often that the question, "How?".

The Book is full of wisdom, something that its detractors fail to notice or deliberately ignore.

Perhaps just contemplating a chapter at a time or a book at a time can be beneficial and there are many different commentaries that can be referenced for any single issue or scripture.

Here's one link that could be particularly useful.

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/index.htm

 

[Milo]

I also have been trying to see the psychological value in religious texts since I first joined this forum and read some of your posts.

Holy shit. The description of Genesis just made me realize that they do not mean God as a being, but as the ideal conditions of the perfect world. Right? It is only what we should strive for as a species. Not the absolute rules we have to abide by.

I'm having a moment right now...

 

[Duxwing]

I also have been trying to see the psychological value in religious texts since I first joined this forum and read some of your posts.

Holy shit. The description of Genesis just made me realize that they do not mean God as a being, but as the ideal conditions of the perfect world. Right? It is only what we should strive for as a species. Not the absolute rules we have to abide by.

I'm having a moment right now...

Are you sure that such a society as existed in Genesis was ideal? Adam and Eve were animals; free from the bonds of society, but deprived of its benefits and utterly dependent on, to make a cruel pun, the Grace of God to provide for them. If that deity had slipped-- just once, mind you-- then the ecosystem of Eden would have killed, eaten, digested, pooped out, and decomposed his little experiment within a matter of days. Eden is anything but a paradise: it would be, as experienced by its inhabitants, a cruel and terrifying social experiment orchestrated by a being who was, if not capricious, dangerously incompetent.

And since Eden was so vile a place, I further assert that the God described by the Bible should be stripped of his post and powers; if such a course of action is impractical, then we will need to slit his celestial throat so that no further harm comes to the cosmos. If necessary, I will gladly kill that monster myself.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

Don't you get it? There is no "God," only the universe in its perfect harmony as it is. God is a term used to describe the universe as a whole and adds in what is ideal for the human species for perfect harmony. It is just an ideal to strive for, even though for me the commandments are common sense except for the whole praising God thing. I'm sure that many of the books in the bible contradict each other because of various different writers having different ideas and perspectives.

 

[Duxwing]

Don't you get it? There is no "God," only the universe in its perfect harmony as it is. God is a term used to describe the universe as a whole and adds in what is ideal for the human species for perfect harmony. It is just an ideal to strive for, even though for me the commandments are common sense except for the whole praising God thing. I'm sure that many of the books in the bible contradict each other because of various different writers having different ideas and perspectives.

The universe is in anything but perfect harmony, you know better than that: genocide, famine, and disease still torture the people of this planet. Billions live in squalor, living from hand to mouth in ramshackle huts, unsound houses, and crowded housing projects. Thousands upon thousands if not millions of children, no different from you and me as we were but a decade or two ago, go to early graves in excruciating pain from easily preventable diseases. Hundreds of thousands of mothers die in agonizing childbirth and never get to see their babies. The world is anything but harmonious.

And such tremendous evil and injustice as I find it in the world is one reason, albeit one lodged deep beneath the surface of my consciousness, that I get up every morning. I want to solve a problem that will bring mankind closer to an ideal greater than Eden: the future. A place not only of peace, but of beauty, technology, knowledge, and adventure. And I don't want to because a God told me to, either.

I do not believe in a God (or Gods) souls, or any other mystical entities. I know that I'm just a tiny part of a huge human machine, but I don't believe that I can't change anything within it, for in our struggles we can strive, we can rise, we can become over-men.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

You have missed my point entirely. It is the ideal that we want, but mankind must work to achieve this ideal for many years and generations. What we perceive as ideal (getting rid of suffering) is what we must work on. It can't just disappear. The race must work together and create this harmony itself. They just all need a common map and trust in each other.

 

[Duxwing]

You have missed my point entirely. It is the ideal that we want, but mankind must work to achieve this ideal for many years and generations. What we perceive as ideal (getting rid of suffering) is what we must work on. It can't just disappear. The race must work together and create this harmony itself. They just all need a common map and trust in each other.

Common map? You've already mentioned that the Bible is anything but. As for the entire human race working on achieving an ideal, I think that such a solution is impractical. A few brilliant minds will figure the big problems out and leave the implementation to us; albeit, we'll all have to work from that "common map," so your point holds if we omit the Bible part.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

The bible says it in the beginning in its own way. But the other stuff seems to just be psychological help for those suffering from there inner conflicts (very general from my perception of it).

I'm just saying the ideal should be the map. That was my realization just now in this thread.

 

[Duxwing]

The bible says it in the beginning in its own way. But the other stuff seems to just be psychological help for those suffering from there inner conflicts (very general from my perception of it).

I'm just saying the ideal should be the map. That was my realization just now in this thread.

Well, alright then. We'll solve the big problems on theory and then put them into practice. That sounds like a plan.

-Duxwing

 

[QuickTwist]

You might want to check out The Message version of the bible; thats pretty watered down.

John 1:1-5

1-2 The Word was first,
the Word present to God,
God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
in readiness for God from day one.
3-5 Everything was created through him;
nothing—not one thing!—
came into being without him.
What came into existence was Life,
and the Life was Light to live by.
The Life-Light blazed out of the darkness;
the darkness couldn’t put it out.

You also might want to check out The street Bible.

Psalm 34:1-9

Gonna go on about you, 24/7;
Applaud, go overboard, drown out heaven.
Gonna name-drop that I know you;
My soul’s gonna show off about you,
So, come on, let’s amplify, let’s turn it right up!
Rave on! Let’s give it up for God; let’s give it up.
I sought you out: you were aready calling, sorting my
anxiety,
Look him in the face- you’ll glisten with God.
You’ll gleam, your face’ll scream, “GOD!”
Joe next door cries out to God- gets his voice heard,
Situation sorted, agony aborted
God’s angel sets up base camp where “respect” is the
word;
Give God respect: you can fully expect safe
passage to the top.
Go on, taste how good God is, feel how strong;
Look how stunning; smell how pure; listen to the
overture
And sing along, as he sets your senses soaring!
So hide, deep down inside; confide in him-
You’ll always know what content meant;
You give God respect,
You’ll miss out on nothing you need- we’re talking
contentment!

Pretty filthy stuff if you ask me. Why does a secular humanist want to read the bible anyways? Oh right you're depressed. Well good luck on your kinda-sorta quest for truth.

Seriously though you need to check out Shane Claiborne. Read his book The Irresistable Revolution. You also need to check out More Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell if you are serious about taking an objective look at the bibles relevence.

 

[Da Blob]

The bible says it in the beginning in its own way. But the other stuff seems to just be psychological help for those suffering from there inner conflicts (very general from my perception of it).

I'm just saying the ideal should be the map. That was my realization just now in this thread.

The language of Hebrews has bee described as the language of dreams and few would contend that the words of the Bible can not evoke powerful imagery, as recorded in the history of Art.

It seems from my POV, that seems to be the greatest error concerning the Bible. It is not a scientific treatise that can be used to answer scientific questions. Instead it is very much like a piece of Great Art, that some appreciate and love and others wonder what those who love it so much see in it.

Yes the Bible is rift with scenarios that can reflect inner conflicts of individuals and possible resolution. The Bible does offer therapy, in and of itself, not quite as a stand alone phenomena, but certainly distinct from any social implications involving religion. In stead the Bible can aid one in cobbling together a unique philosophy and a practical psychological frame of mind.

There really are such things as a Spirit of Truth and a Witness to that Truth and such can be manifested while contemplating imagery from the Bible.

They provide Moments...