death sentence issues

[kantor1003]

YouTube- dexter johnson gets death sentence

I am well aware that reading youtube comments makes you think lesser of humans, but I was pretty astonished by the nature of 90% of the comments. Does it reflect the perspective of the general population? It certainly does in the youtube realm. I'll post some examples and you'll see for yourself:

"die u piece of shit"
"Niggers are filthy beasts"
"Fuck this piece of shit!!! BURN YOU SORRY MOTHER FUCKER B U R N!!!!"
"Big tall tree and a short length of rope. Bring back real justice to these criminal niggers!"
"Just another filthy animal that needs exterminated and fast. Why do humans tolerate these apes?"
"Filthy nigger. In an ideal society, he'd be taken out back and put up against the wall. End of story."

The true nature of humans really comes out here. We don't seem to be that different from an 18th century lynch mob. What are your take on death sentence?

I am against any form of a death sentence as it's only purpose is retaliation. To feed a primitive urge. Sure, easy for me to say as I don't have had a family member being killed by a stranger. If that where the case, and I were there to witness his act, I wouldn't hesitate to kill him.. and thats how it works.. but thats different; as soon as it becomes a governmental issue with the press involved etc. it becomes something else. Anyone that can articulate it better?

Ideally, the people responsible for the killing should be "helped". How one goes about this, or if it's even possible in some cases is a complicated issue.. inputs?
And let's say someone killed your mother, and they where helped to function as "normal" people again in everyday society, wouldn't you still hold a strong resentment towards him/her to the point of perhaps wanting them dead? Would that be justifiable seeing that they wont commit any more crimes of the likes?

 

[Words]

It also helps that these people are the type that are so motivated by "primitive urges" that they would look into it and even write comments. you can only find dark objects in darkness?

 

[Claverhouse]

Vox Populi, Vox Dei

Does it reflect the perspective of the general population?

Possibly. Most people are pretty angry inside at their existential powerless.

"die u piece of shit"
"Niggers are filthy beasts"
"Fuck this piece of shit!!! BURN YOU SORRY MOTHER FUCKER B U R N!!!!"
"Big tall tree and a short length of rope. Bring back real justice to these criminal niggers!"
"Just another filthy animal that needs exterminated and fast. Why do humans tolerate these apes?"
"Filthy nigger. In an ideal society, he'd be taken out back and put up against the wall. End of story."

Fortunately, democracy means that not only does every uncaught rapist, thief and murderer have a determining vote in government and a voice, but so do these individual wannabe vigilante morons. Every person is utterly equally valuable. And naturally good.

The true nature of humans really comes out here. We don't seem to be that different from an 18th century lynch mob.

That'll be that Natural Human Morality As A Species atheists are always banging on about....

What are your take on death sentence?

Don't mind it. Sometimes necessary. I might substitute some others for the ones presently occupying Death Row though.

Ideally, the people responsible for the killing should be "helped". How one goes about this, or if it's even possible in some cases is a complicated issue.. inputs?

I'm not sure why they should be "helped", then again I don't understand moral impulses... If their crime is heinous, then a swift merciful execution at least gets them off the planet. If there are extenuating circumstances then imprisonment seems the only option unless you want them to be set free back in their communities. If there's no penalty at all, society soon degenerates as people understand they are free to murder or do whatever they want to do.

I certainly wouldn't subject them to religious counselling however, whether in the traditional sense, or through psychology or civic sermonizing. Seems impertinent.



Claverhouse




As for the commentators, put 'em up against a wall and shoot them.

 

[cuterebra]

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it's expensive. Seeking the death penalty is far more expensive than life imprisonment, what with all the appeals. That's the reason even Texas is seeking the death penalty less frequently these days.

 

[kantor1003]

Re: Vox Populi, Vox Dei

That'll be that Natural Human Morality As A Species atheists are always banging on about....

Elaborate.

I'm not sure why they should be "helped"

By "help" I mean that if you have a broken car, you try to fix it before wrecking it.

 

[Trebuchet]

The true nature of humans really comes out here. We don't seem to be that different from an 18th century lynch mob. What are your take on death sentence?

In The Lucifer Effect, Phil Zimbardo describes the circumstances that create or elicit evil behavior. (Zimbardo is most famous for the Stanford Prison Experiment, and has dedicated his career in psychology to understanding evil and heroic acts.) Being anonymous definitely makes people more aggressive and willing to violate social norms. Another important factor in evil is to dehumanize the victim, often by calling them animals or using terms that imply "them" as opposed to "us." We see both of these behaviors in the quoted comments. I expect that in person, almost none of these people would say any such things, or admit to thinking them.

And let's say someone killed your mother, and they where helped to function as "normal" people again in everyday society, wouldn't you still hold a strong resentment towards him/her to the point of perhaps wanting them dead? Would that be justifiable seeing that they wont commit any more crimes of the likes?

I am opposed to the death penalty, unless the criminal asks for it (some have). Vengeance never seems to make the world a better place, except in movies. I don't know how well I'd forgive a murder. Probably not well at all. The idea of killing someone that I think has wronged me is appealing, but that doesn't mean I have to support doing it. My emotions can't be allowed to make important decisions like that.

 

[Anthile]

In The Lucifer Effect, Phil Zimbardo describes the circumstances that create or elicit evil behavior. (Zimbardo is most famous for the Stanford Prison Experiment, and has dedicated his career in psychology to understanding evil and heroic acts.) Being anonymous definitely makes people more aggressive and willing to violate social norms. Another important factor in evil is to dehumanize the victim, often by calling them animals or using terms that imply "them" as opposed to "us." We see both of these behaviors in the quoted comments. I expect that in person, almost none of these people would say any such things, or admit to thinking them.

 

[Thoughtful]

As can be expected, this is what you get from a bunch of uneducated morons who are forced to learn to write. Most will end up as criminals themselves loaning out their testosterone to Blackwater, Militia groups, or Aryan gangs. unless they learn, most have no hope for sucessful employment in anything other than serf-level labor.

Death sentance: Depends on the circumstances, repeat offenders should be killed, no question, likewise anyone who requests the death sentence should be allowed to die. I don't think It should be exercised lightly, and first time offenders should receive very thorough investigations, and probably be given the benefit of time instead, especially if they turn themselves in.

 

[Da Blob]

I am a proponent of the death sentence. Seeing that we all are sentenced to die anyway and the death process begins at birth, to shorten an Other's life is just hastening an inevitable fate. Especially in the cases of criminals who have shortened the lives of others, thereby showing the value they, themselves, place on human life, the death of the criminals should be swift and within months of their crime.

I think it is utterly ridiculous to think that the life of a single murderer is more valuable than the lives of hundreds of children. Yet here in America we allow the children to starve while we spend millions of dollars per murderer, making them the most valuable individuals to our society - as we spend more on them than anyone else.

This is just Not right!

 

[Anthile]

I am a proponent of the death sentence. Seeing that we all are sentenced to die anyway and the death process begins at birth, to shorten an Other's life is just hastening an inevitable fate. Especially in the cases of criminals who have shortened the lives of others, thereby showing the value they, themselves, place on human life, the death of the criminals should be swift and within months of their crime.

I think it is utterly ridiculous to think that the life of a single murderer is more valuable than the lives of hundreds of children. Yet here in America we allow the children to starve while we spend millions of dollars per murderer, making them the most valuable individuals to our society - as we spend more on them than anyone else.

This is just Not right!

And I always thought I was cynical.

Hint: Locking someone away forever is cheaper than death penalty.

 

[fullerene]

I was excited to see that link (I've never actually seen that claim made before)... but was a little disappointed. They mentioned the cost of building a death row, staffing it, etc... but I didn't see any figures at all on how much it cost to lock someone away for life.

It seemed like one of those cases where the news just "made" a fact by claiming it, even though no studies were referenced and even the unsubstantiated claims didn't form a full argument (again, because I didn't see anything on the cost of locking up a prisoner for life).

I'm not even a fan of the death penalty; in fact, I don't think I've given it any thought at all... but did I miss something?

 

[Anthile]

Oh, here are numbers with more deatils: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty


However, what bothers me most is that the state simply shouldn't have the right to kill me. Or anyone else for that matter.

 

[TheHmmmm]

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it's expensive. Seeking the death penalty is far more expensive than life imprisonment, what with all the appeals. That's the reason even Texas is seeking the death penalty less frequently these days.

I like this one, except I find it inappropriate to say that it's more expensive than life imprisonment since that's not really quantifiable. I will say that our obsession with humanization makes it more expensive than it should be. Prison's also extremely expensive to maintain.

Sympathy. Pfft.

 

[warryer]

However, what bothers me most is that the state simply shouldn't have the right to kill me. Or anyone else for that matter.

Agreed. The state death penalty is an act of revenge. I think rotting away in prison for the rest of your life is a far greater punishment than being set free by death. I do not think murders should have any rights in prison other than basic human necessity (food, water, shelter)- none of this TV watching BS. I want Soviet Gulags. Put the criminals to work to repay what they cost taxpayers.

I wonder how many of these people subscribe to some type of religion which preach forgiveness. Wouldn't the murderer receive whats coming to him in the afterlife?

Anonimity does create monsters but, it goes to show you the true nature of how people can be.

As to the current system- why can't they use the same methods they use on cows in the slaughter house? It can't be that expensive seeing as I don't pay $1000 for a lb of ground beef.

 

[Da Blob]

The only reason it is cheaper to house a murderer for life, than to provide a death sentence is because of the seemingly misplaced value we have for murderers' lives. The last time I checked we spent 3 million dollars per death row inhabitant. There are other countries that simply execute their convicted murderers with a bullet to the head after conviction. They then send a bill to the murderer's family for the cost of the bullet.

I am just thinking of what that money could be spent on instead of ensuring the rights of an individual, who personally displayed no such consideration to his or her victims.

 

[Claverhouse]

Re: Vox Populi, Vox Dei

That'll be that Natural Human Morality As A Species atheists are always banging on about....

Elaborate.

In a desperate attempt to retain the disadvantages and highmindedness that accrue to morality, and to prove themselves not merely equal in goodness but better than religious christians and jews ( I Am Good Because I'm So Naturally Perfect, Not Because I Fear Punishment Or Seek Reward From Some Imaginary Diety --- despite the fact I shall be a long-forgotten handful of dust whose every thought and action shall be unimportant and disregarded by 500 years hence ) atheists posit that mankind has a social morality, altruism innate in the genes. Obviously this means one individually can ignore such morality since there is no sanction implicit; and the most common universal human morality appears to have been to kill the strangers within one's gates.

I'm merely suggesting that the youtube barbarians, delighting in, and desiring, the torture --- justified torture in their view, which is the very best kind of torture, since one is absolved of responsibilty : no-one worries about the tortures inflicted on people agreed to be bad, whether witches or nazis --- are best representatives of this natural innate morality.

By "help" I mean that if you have a broken car, you try to fix it before wrecking it.

Why should I care ? Seriously. As Da Blob implies, to quote the wicked, but sometimes right, Macaulay,

To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late

To suggest I should waste thought upon some unpleasant individual who, say, in concert with his family stabbed his daughter for bringing shame upon their religion by wearing western clothes ( itsa cultural thing ! ); or shot a gas-station attendant for cash; or set fire to her husband because he cheated on her, presupposes that whether they die now or in a few decades matters to me and that I have a very shallow frivolous nature that worries about idiots.

I am not suggesting that humans need utility to have the right to exist --- that right is innate in our being born, and even if we live utterly useless lives like daisies or as did Australian aborigines no one ( except materialist utilitarian communists ) can demand value from our living --- but I would say losing such people would be less of a loss than losing others.
​

Claverhouse

 

[cuterebra]

I like this one, except I find it inappropriate to say that it's more expensive than life imprisonment since that's not really quantifiable. I will say that our obsession with humanization makes it more expensive than it should be. Prison's also extremely expensive to maintain.

Sympathy. Pfft.

Prison is expensive to maintain, sure, but seeking the death penalty entails a protracted judicial process with numerous appeals (and a lot of lawyers). Ultimately, capital cases cost the taxpayers considerably more money.

Here is a link to a nonprofit group that has the statistics:
http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

 

[Words]

Knowing how the afterlife is unknown, everyone wishes to stay alive for as long as possible. if you feel the same, you should cooperate.

 

[Madoness]

The only reason it is cheaper to house a murderer for life, than to provide a death sentence is because of the seemingly misplaced value we have for murderers' lives.

Misplaced value? As what?

The last time I checked we spent 3 million dollars per death row inhabitant. There are other countries that simply execute their convicted murderers with a bullet to the head after conviction. They then send a bill to the murderer's family for the cost of the bullet.

I would not want to live in these countries.... neither you, most probably. That is, if you would find yourself not in the majority any more. At least I wouldn't want to be somewhere where becoming a minority could end up being too dangerous.. Someone could set me up. And I'd probably have no fair trial. Killed after first sentence is given.

 

[Claverhouse]

Knowing how the afterlife is unknown, everyone wishes to stay alive for as long as possible. if you feel the same, you should cooperate.

Since millions of birds and animals are being murdered and tortured for human food every day, it's difficult to maintain that life is sacred. Presumably they wish to stay alive as long as possible --- many of the millions don't get one day before being executed.

And no, humans are not more valuable than animals. That is a silly jewish myth to flatter man's self-importance.


To cooperate in keeping wanton murderers alive will surely defeat your purpose since if they continue their interesting hobby either outside or within prison walls, that means more lives are lost than saved.

I would not want to live in these countries.... neither you, most probably. That is, if you would find yourself not in the majority any more. At least I wouldn't want to be somewhere where becoming a minority could end up being too dangerous.. Someone could set me up. And I'd probably have no fair trial. Killed after first sentence is given.

Actually, you would find yourself in the Majority, as we used to call the dead...

Anyway, the family billed for the bullets thing was mainly a standard marxist thing. Soviet communism murdered anything from 60 - 100 million in their own country, depending upon whom one asks: no-one gives a damn about those dead whether executed or starved to death. Mostly because communism = caring, and is thus perceived to be moral.




Claverhouse

 

[kantor1003]

Re: Vox Populi, Vox Dei

Claverhouse:
Ah.
I am not trying to defend him though, and I feel no pitty towards him being killed any more than I feel pitty for any human that I don't have contact with or look up to in some way, being killed.
However, I still hold the position that ideally, trying to "correct" the mind of the wrongdoer should come before wasting him.

I don't really "care" about this either. I really don't care about much really, but that doesn't keep me from engaging in discussions which really don't have any constructive purpose "caring" for or debating over anyways.

*starting to feel the frustration of not being able to express myself clearly enough due to language issues*