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ZenRaiden

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emotions are not the origin of emotions

emotions are physiological communication signals
I would not get too hung up on definition of emotions, because other than feeling them and acting on them we don't know much about emotions at all. Not in scientific way.
not necessarily,


An axiom is a statement or proposition that is accepted as true without requiring proof, serving as a starting point for further reasoning or argumentation.
OK.
AXIOMS are the origin of both emotion and logic

self-preservation is a primary AXIOM
Kind of, my main point is you can lack emotion and therefore not act. That is not controversial. I hope.
premise one - a bird can fly and so it is reasonable to presume we can build a machine that can also fly

premise two - hydrodynamic principles also apply to aerodynamics
Yeah, I am not sure Da VInci knew what dynamics are. I think at that time he was just aware of flow.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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I would not get too hung up on definition of emotions, because other than feeling them and acting on them we don't know much about emotions at all. Not in scientific way.

are you familiar with evolutionary biology ?
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Kind of, my main point is you can lack emotion and therefore not act. That is not controversial. I hope.

e-motion

e-motive

motivation

is prerequisite to action
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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I know roughly what it is about.

Emotions can be explained as specialized states, shaped by natural selection, that increase fitness in specific situations.

The physiological, psychological, and behavioral characteristics of a specific emotion can be analyzed as possible design features that increase the ability to cope with the threats and opportunities present in the corresponding situation.

This approach to understanding the evolutionary functions of emotions is illustrated by the correspondence between (a) the subtypes of fear and the different kinds of threat; (b) the attributes of happiness and sadness and the changes that would be advantageous in propitious and unpropitious situations; and (c) the social emotions and the adaptive challenges of reciprocity relationships.

In addition to addressing a core theoretical problem shared by evolutionary and cognitive psychology, explicit formulations of the evolutionary functions of specific emotions are of practical importance for understanding and treating emotional disorders.

 

ZenRaiden

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Emotions can be explained as specialized states, shaped by natural selection, that increase fitness in specific situations.
True, but that is kind of like explaining us having two hands.
Sure evolution meant we have two hands.
Evolution did it, has zero explaining power in many ways.
Ergo understanding stems from drum roll.... it was good in the past, and so genes past it on.
 

EndogenousRebel

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Oh please, as if you sodomizing yourselves with the nobel cause of defending the one true logic you can comprehend isn't its own psychoanalytical gold mine.

perhaps we could clear this whole thing up if you were to present your own personally preferred definition of "logic"
Logic ≠ Reasoning

They are two distinct things.

Logic is a set components and relationships. Reasoning is a cognitive process.

1. Socrates is a man
2. All men are immortal
C. Socrates is immortal.

This is valid logic. It's your reasoning that is telling that premise 2 is false, and therefore the conclusion is also false.

You have some sort of construct in your head about what logic is. I would be willing to bet it is a functionalist definition of logic.

Just because you can construct a statement that has the reverse logic of a statement I write, does not invalidate the former statement. That is a feature of the language of math.

Your construct of logic might agree with a statement like:

A logical argument must adhere to empirically validated evidence.

At that point though you are not talking about logic. You are talking about something composed by logic.


I can make perfectly logical statements and you can do the same. This is why arguments that come from a place of authenticity matter a lot.

I might have checked out from this discussion long time ago but all I have to do is make logically valid statements and you would have to figure out how that connects to my actual argument.

If everyone was operating from the same point of view, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I'm not surprised at all we are having this discussion. There are proofs of 1+1=2 that are three hundred pages long for Christ sake.

This idea that there is some perfect universal logical system that one has insight into is just cope.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Yeah, I am not sure Da VInci knew what dynamics are. I think at that time he was just aware of flow.

the corkscrew style propeller works pretty well in water

and it is reasonable to think it might also work for air

under the right conditions
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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This is valid logic. It's your reasoning that is telling that premise 2 is false, and therefore the conclusion is also false.

nobody, and i do mean nobody is arguing in support of merely "valid" logic

the aim here is always SOUND LOGIC
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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This idea that there is some perfect universal logical system that one has insight into is just cope.

nobody is making such a claim

the topic at hand is the question

should rules for speech be logically coherent and uniformly enforced ?
 

ZenRaiden

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the corkscrew style propeller works pretty well in water

and it is reasonable to think it might also work for air

under the right conditions
Sure, but Da Vinci has a flying machine. It clearly uses levers and uses mechanics of his time. We know the machine cannot do much. I have seen a movie where they tested his concept of parachute and it worked. At least partially.

When it comes to what he knew, well that much is mystery. I doubt the writings he left behind were all there was.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Sure, but Da Vinci has a flying machine. It clearly uses levers and uses mechanics of his time. We know the machine cannot do much. I have seen a movie where they tested his concept of parachute and it worked. At least partially.

Vis_aerienne_Luc_Viatour.jpg
 

ZenRaiden

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Sure, but Da Vinci has a flying machine. It clearly uses levers and uses mechanics of his time. We know the machine cannot do much. I have seen a movie where they tested his concept of parachute and it worked. At least partially.

Vis_aerienne_Luc_Viatour.jpg
Oh yeah good point. He did have helicopter.
I thinking of gliders.
 

EndogenousRebel

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This is valid logic. It's your reasoning that is telling that premise 2 is false, and therefore the conclusion is also false.

nobody, and i do mean nobody is arguing in support of merely "valid" logic

the aim here is always SOUND LOGIC
So you would accept a sound conclusion with an invalid premise?

nobody is making such a claim

People aren't making various claims. This is why we say things to specify what is being communicated.

the topic at hand is the question

should rules for speech be logically coherent and uniformly enforced ?

Not really the question for me.

The only conflict I see is that any logical coherent is pretty vague. Contingencies can allow for anything and still be coherent.
Logic ≠ Reasoning

Logic is the study of correct reasoning.

Reasoning is the process of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment



"Logic" is interchangable with "set of relationships" yes or no?

The x of the process fulfills it's intended purpose.

Why, why not?
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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So you would accept a sound conclusion with an invalid premise?

Sound logic refers to a logical argument that is both valid and has true premises, meaning it is both structurally correct and based on accurate information. Valid logic, on the other hand, refers to a logical argument that follows the rules of deductive reasoning, regardless of the truth or accuracy of its premises.
 

EndogenousRebel

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So you would accept a sound conclusion with an invalid premise?

Sound logic refers to a logical argument that is both valid and has true premises, meaning it is both structurally correct and based on accurate information.

How do you determine truth?

Also you didn't answer my last question.
 

EndogenousRebel

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scorpiomover

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scorpiomover

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I wrote the logic down in the forum. I'm happy to restate it again.
You didn't even use truth tables correctly.
Funny enough truth tables and set theory is among the only things I was thought about logic in formal schooling.

Literally showed my work, and you have no notes?
I can provide notes. But not written down. This forum doesn't allow for pen and paper. Also, your working out was on different pages. I don't know how to join multiple quotes from multiple posts on different pages, into the same point. So I'll have to break this up into multiple posts.
 

scorpiomover

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Logic has it's problems too.

Every time I go to Kenya, the world explodes. I have never gone to Kenya. You have me to thank for the world not exploding.
1) "Every time I go to Kenya, the world explodes." Is that true?
On what basis? Deductively? Inductively? "Every time I go to..., X happens" which seems to be a statement of correlation, an inference, not a deduction.

Inductively: How many times have you been to Kenya? How many times has the world exploded? If the world has never exploded, then there's no data to infer a correlation from.

Maybe you mean deductively or theoretically, like that "all bachelors are unmarried". Even if everyone in the world is married, "all bachelors are unmarried" would still be true, as it's impossible for there to be a bachelor who isn't married. So, is it impossible for you to visit Kenya without the world exploding? Not AFAIK. So no deductive argument here either.

2) "I have never gone to Kenya." Is that true? How do I check? I've never met you. I don't know where you've gone. Also, even if I could get a copy of your passport with all your travel destinations on it, it's very difficult to prove a negative. You could have been flown by the CIA on a special plane, or used a different passport, or even been in the Witness Protection Program, and all records of your visit to Kenya have been erased. I don't have any way to validate that statement.

But I'll pretend that it's true, for the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just BSing everyone.

3) "You have me to thank for the world not exploding." => If it wasn't for you, the world would have exploded. We haven't even got reason to think that there's a connection.

But even if we would, the world could have exploded in a myriad of ways. Plenty of asteroids and other things that could have impacted the Earth and caused the world to explode. So if we're going to thank you, we have to thank all the asteroids in the universe as well. But no-one is thanking the asteroids that could have caused the world to explode by their impact.
 

Black Rose

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Logic has it's problems too.

Every time I go to Kenya, the world explodes. I have never gone to Kenya. You have me to thank for the world not exploding.
1) "Every time I go to Kenya, the world explodes." Is that true?
On what basis? Deductively? Inductively? "Every time I go to..., X happens" which seems to be a statement of correlation, an inference, not a deduction.

Inductively: How many times have you been to Kenya? How many times has the world exploded? If the world has never exploded, then there's no data to infer a correlation from.

Maybe you mean deductively or theoretically, like that "all bachelors are unmarried". Even if everyone in the world is married, "all bachelors are unmarried" would still be true, as it's impossible for there to be a bachelor who isn't married. So, is it impossible for you to visit Kenya without the world exploding? Not AFAIK. So no deductive argument here either.

You cannot infer that the world will not explode given he has never been to Kenya.

The only way to "validate" this hypothesis is to send him and if the world does explode we will know for sure.

This is a problem of causation argument. See David Hume.
 

scorpiomover

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X (I have gone to Kenya)Y (The World Explodes)if X then Y (If I go to Kenya, the World Explodes)
TrueTrueTrue
TrueFalseFalse
FalseTrueTrue
FalseFalseTrue
This is a standard use of a truth table.

However, this is just pointing out the well-known rule of "If X then Y" equals "(NOT X) OR Y", as if you do the same truth table for "(NOT X) OR Y", you also get "true, false, true, true". It's a rather trivial result, as it's very well-known.

So you don't seem to be saying anything here.

Equally well, we could also make the same truth table where X = "I have not gone to Kenya" and Y = "the world explodes", as we'd get the same results.

So "if I go to Kenya, the world explodes" and "if I do not go to Kenya, the world explodes" have the same truth tables.

But then, if we say "if I go to Kenya, the world explodes" is valid, then "if I do not go to Kenya, the world explodes" is also valid, which means that the world would have exploded whether you went to Kenya or not. Hmmm'...has the world exploded?

Expressions of this table?What does it mean?
(X is false) OR (Y is true)I haven't gone to Kenya, or the world exploding, or both
YThe world explodes
X is equivalent to YI have gone to Kenya, The world explodes
X and YI have gone to Kenya and the world explodes
X is false (not X)I haven't gone to Kenya
(not X) and YI haven't gone to Kenya, the world explodes
(not X) and (not Y)I haven't gone to Kenya and the world doesn't explode
FalseNothing
Nice list. But not a truth table. Also, not completely accurate.
#1 is accurate, even though you already demonstrated it a second before.
#2 is accurate.

#3) The left side "X is equivalent to Y" means (X = Y) or "When X is true, Y is true, and when X is false, Y is false", which would mean "Either I have been to Kenya and the world exploded or I have not been to Kenya and the world has not exploded".

The right side: "I have gone to Kenya, the world explodes" = "X and Y", which is #4.

So that's not right.

#4 is correct.
#5 is correct.
#6 is correct.
#7 is correct.

#8 is a category error. If "false" meant "nothing", then "X is false" = "X is nothing". I think you mean that "false" doesn't mention X or Y, and so doesn't say anything about you going to Kenya or not, and doesn't say anything about the world exploding or not.

Plus, "True" would be just as meaningless. So you saying it means "nothing" has got nothing to do with "false" itself.

Even so, all that does, is provide nice explanations for some symbols that are pretty commonplace. You're not proving anything.

Even for those who aren't familiar with those symbols, you got #3 wrong. So those who are trying to learn from your explanations are going to get misled.

Not always the end of the world. But since your explanation of #3 is equivalent to #4, but for #4, you give a slightly different explanation, you can easily mislead people into thinking that "I have gone to Kenya. The world explodes." is a very different statement in logic to "I have gone to Kenya and the world explodes", as those 2 statements already have a different meaning in general English usage. The use of the conjunctive "and" is to join 2 sentences together that could have been said separately. This is often to indicate a connection between them.

So if someone isn't familiar with these terms, they could think that in logic, (X and Y) refers to 2 statements that are somehow connected and relevant to each other, while also in logic, (X is equivalent to Y) refers to 2 statements that are both true but not connected to each other.

Anyone with that notion is liable to have a lot of problems understanding logical arguments where the word "equivalent" is used.

They are also likely to think that if 2 statements X and Y are both true, but not connected to each other, then in logic, "X and Y" is false, which is clearly untrue.

So some of it is wrong, and anyway, it's either trivial or liable to cause serious misunderstandings.

Tell me where the problem in the logic is please.
You seem to be treating logic as if it's a matter of semantics, meaning, that as long as I make a statement that is expressed in the format of a typical logical argument, i.e. it is "well formed", then that makes it valid.

A well-formed argument just means that it is stated in a standardised way that makes it much easier for logicians to figure out if it is true or false. Doesn't tell you if it is true or false.

OTOH, computers use semantics. Modern electronic computers can do additions and all sorts of calculations. But computer circuits aren't known for their power to think. They can just process electrical signals computationally.

However, George Boole, and later, Alsonso Church and Alan Turing, all realised that computational machines like mechanical circuits and electrical circuits could be used to perform logical calculations using semantics, when the inputs and outputs of the relevant electrical circuits compute to the same answers as logical calculations, and thus are logically equivalent. That's how arithmetic works on computers. They don't actually compute logic. But the answers are equivalent, and that's good enough for most people to be able to use their results in a reasonably reliable fashion.

But as I pointed out before, that's not always true, as electrical circuits can't compute square roots without rounding off and creating an error margin. Try it on your calculator: Enter 2. Press the Square Root button. Save in memory. Then multiply it by itself. The answer is usually 1.99999, not 2, which is wrong.

So it's sometimes true that logical semantics computes to the same thing as an actual logical calculation. But only when they are equivalent, i.e. when all the premises are true, then the conclusion is also true, and when some of the premises aer false, then the conclusion is false. But that only happens with sound statements.

So you can say that logical semantics calculate the correct answer when it comes to sound arguments. But that's not always true with unsound arguments, and your argument is unsound.

So if you wanted to prove that logic was faulty, you needed to find an argument that was sound but invalid.

But according to the 2nd video you supplied on this matter, all arguments with invalid arguments are unsound.

So you can't prove that logic was faulty, at least, not the way that you have gone about it.

Plus, if what you were saying was true, then computers would not be trustworthy when it came to arithmetic, and then we would not be able to rely on the results of calculators, because they work on the same premise.
 

scorpiomover

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You cannot infer that the world will not explode given he has never been to Kenya.
True, because even if he never goes to Kenya, the world might explode anyway, for a different reason.

The only way to "validate" this hypothesis is to send him and if the world does explode we will know for sure.

This is a problem of causation argument. See David Hume.
The wars with Marxist communists, was about that very point.

Marx claimed that capitalism was the cause of evil, and that unless every country in the world became communist, then communism was bound to fail and be overtaken by capitalism, even if that meant killing lots of people.

Marxists had the same problem: they could only be definitely sure that Marx was wrong, was by making every country in the world communist, even if that meant killing lots of people, and then seeing if they got rid of all capitalism and all evil.

Thus, Marxists believed that given the danger of evil and how important it is to rid the world of evil, the only sensible choice was to do just that. So they were going to wage war against any countries that refused to become communist, until all countries were communist.

Americans thought that was not a good reason to make everyone be forced to accept communism, and so saw such a war as an attack on their country.

So it sounds as if you think that the Marxists were right to want to test out their hypothesis, and the Americans were wrong to refuse to try making their country and all other countries into Marxist states.

Is that correct?
 

Black Rose

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So it sounds as if you think that the Marxists were right to want to test out their hypothesis, and the Americans were wrong to refuse to try making their country and all other countries into Marxist states.

Is that correct?

no, the opposite, you @scorpiomover believe this if you think logic is the end all be all of perfection. I mean your whole argument against @EndogenousRebel is that logic is perfect right?
 

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True, because even if he never goes to Kenya, the world might explode anyway, for a different reason.

If you believe he was serious about going to Kenya himself personally then you have a serious deficit in social intelligence. All it was, was an example of how logic is not perfect. And I highly dislike you implying I support Marxism, the whole point of logic failing is the same as Marxism being flawed because they have a logic you would not support so to say I support it well you don't is an attack on my character. They have a flawed logic as @EndogenousRebel demonstrated with the Kenya example. If You @scorpiomover don't support Marxism then you can also see why the Kenya example is also problematic logic as well and thus you should agree that logic has problems as @EndogenousRebel has been saying this whole time.
 

Black Rose

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@scorpiomover

simply:

if
marxism logic is flawed
and if
the logic of not going to Kenya makes the world not explode is flawed

then logic has problems and @EndogenousRebel's point stands
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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This guy here says that if the premise is invalid, the conclusion is definitely not sound. So that can't happen, at least, not according to @EndogenousRebel.

bingo
 

scorpiomover

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no, the opposite,
I know that you being an American, would as a conclusion oppose Marxism. But your argument is equally applicable to billions of Marxists concluding that they should do everything in their power to make your country become Marxist.

you @scorpiomover believe this if you think logic is the end all be all of perfection. I mean your whole argument against @EndogenousRebel is that logic is perfect right?
I do not ascribe to the view that logic is perfect.

Godel pointed out that in any logical system, you can come up with statements that are true but unprovable, that is, that you can know something is true but be unable to prove it to anyone else.

But the basic rules of logic that people from Aristotle to Pierce came up with and refined over 2,000 years, was to make a system in which humans could figure out what was true and false, in so many situations, that humanity would have a reasonably reliable system for figuring out what was true and what was false. We call that system "logic".

So it's not so much that logic is perfect, but in the past, people like you and @EndogenousRebel wanted a system of logic which was perfect, and encouraged and supported many people to do just that, until they got one that people like you and @EndogenousRebel were happy with.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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All it was, was an example of how logic is not perfect.

just because you can write 2 + 2 = 5

does not invalidate the concept of mathematics

in other words

you can easily make a false statement and claim it is "logical"

but that does not invalidate the concept of logic
 

scorpiomover

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If you believe he was serious about going to Kenya himself personally then you have a serious deficit in social intelligence. All it was, was an example of how logic is not perfect.
I understand.

But it was people like you and @EndogenousRebel who supported and encouraged the development of logic into a system that people like you and @EndogenousRebel considered to be "perfect".

Now, you and @EndogenousRebel are now claiming that logic is imperfect, when your counterparts in the past would say that logic is perfect.

So what has changed, that caused you and @EndogenousRebel have done a 180 U-turn on your previous attitudes?

And I highly dislike you implying I support Marxism, the whole point of logic failing is the same as Marxism being flawed because they have a logic you would not support
I would support their system of logic. I just think that what @EndogenousRebel said was not part of logic in the first place.

so to say I support it well you don't is an attack on my character.
Well, either you are talking about an entirely different subject to me, in which case, you are arguing with a strawman, or you are not using it correctly, and so not using logic at all, and so you are still arguing with a strawman. Either way, you and he are both claiming to be giving a valid rebuttal, when you're arguing with someone who doesn't say what I am saying at all.

So where are your arguments coming from? They're not coming from me. There's only the 3 of us. So they must be coming from you 2. So you 2 are arguing with yourselves. Therefore, you 2 must be in effect claiming that you 2 are wrong.

The argument I used, was to highlight that even you don't agree with what you were suggesting.
 

scorpiomover

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@scorpiomover

simply:

if
marxism logic is flawed
and if
the logic of not going to Kenya makes the world not explode is flawed

then logic has problems and @EndogenousRebel's point stands
No. There are 2 possibilities:

1) Logic is flawed.

If #1 is true, then we have no means of determining the veracity of an argument. Then all our thinking and science has no basis.

2) Lots of people abuse logic. They say things that are logically invalid, and claim they are logically valid. They say things that are logically unsound, and claim that they are logically sound.

Why would people lie like that?

Moreover, if people would want to lie, why bother mentioning logic at all? You don't need to say you are being logical to lie to other people. So why bring it up?
 

ZenRaiden

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just because you can write 2 + 2 = 5

does not invalidate the concept of mathematics

in other words

you can easily make a false statement and claim it is "logical"

but that does not invalidate the concept of logic
So are here people arguing "logic is flawed system"
or are people arguing "logic" does not account for all solutions?
In both I still find it hard to find the key point people are arguing?
 

scorpiomover

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So are here people arguing "logic is flawed system"

or are people arguing "logic" does not account for all solutions?
I get the impression that @EndogenousRebel and @Black Rose are arguing that logic is a flawed system.

Other people may be arguing that logic is not flawed, but is incomplete, and so does not account for all solutions.

In both I still find it hard to find the key point people are arguing?
The argument is: Can anyone make an argument like "I've never been to Kenya. If I ever went to Kenya, the world would explode. Thus, you have me to thank for the world not exploding?" and for that to be logically valid but also logically unsound? I say it's not logically valid. @EndogenousRebel says it is logically valid.

The key point is: Can I make up any bogus argument on any question, which would be logically true but in reality false? Can I use logic to claim anything I want?

Can I use logic to claim that the Sun is just a clever hoax, that the Sun goes aroung the Earth, that electricity doesn't exist, that racism, sexism and homophobia are wonderful, that slavery should be legal, that murder, rape and torture are all moral and beneficial for society?

In other words, is logic such a stupid way of thinking about things, that a child of 10 could prove it's completely worthless, and thus anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would say that logic is wrong, and no-one with any brains ever suggested such a thing?

@EndogenousRebel amd @Black Rose seem to say "yes".

I and @LOGICZOMBIE say "no", and have a reason to think so. From my perspective, as such arguments are so obvious, such arguments would have ruled out by the rules of logic. If logic didn't rule out silly and obvious arguments like that, every smart and honest person around would have never agreed with it in the first place, and no-one here would have even heard of logic.
 

ZenRaiden

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In other words, is logic such a stupid way of thinking about things,
I would never say logic is stupid.
But never say never they say.
I was merely in both threads pointing out that in some cases logic can deliver results, but one can do so without logic, and get results.
Kind of like Wittgenstein can talk about lions, but lions can eat Wittgenstein.
We would not argue chimps are stupid, because they lack human capacity to logic.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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In other words, is logic such a stupid way of thinking about things, that a child of 10 could prove it's completely worthless, and thus anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would say that logic is wrong, and no-one with any brains ever suggested such a thing?

@EndogenousRebel amd @Black Rose seem to say "yes".

quick question

so, how exactly do you determine if a claim is correct if you don't use logic ?
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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one can do so without logic, and get results.

maybe you're thinking of something more specific

like syllogistic statements

machines are logical

circuits are logical

A logic board, also known as a motherboard, is the main circuit board in a computer or electronic device that connects and controls various components, allowing them to communicate and function together.

so,

even though a computer can't understand the concept of logic

it is still a logical device

and logic can be used to understand that device

a lion is also a logical device

and humans are also logical devices
 

Old Things

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As the discussion has gone on, I do think there are some problems with logic. For example, logic can only answer logical inquiries. It cannot answer questions about values and such. But even with values, IMO it would be stupid to say that there are no better or worse value systems. Honor, charity, peace, etc. are values that are good and dishonor, mean-spiritedness, and strife are values that are bad. Of course, this should sound obvious to people. But logic is a bit like science in that science cannot tell us that what Hitler did was wrong even though we take it as a fact that it was. Logic is all about a priori axioms. Does logic in this way touch every aspect of human existence? Probably not, but it hits enough buttons that logic is still very useful to answer a lot of human questions and I think it is an extreme error to underplay the usefulness of logic.
 

ZenRaiden

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maybe you're thinking of something more specific

like syllogistic statements

machines are logical

circuits are logical

A logic board, also as a motherboard, is the main circuit board in a computer or electronic device that connects and controls various components, allowing them to communicate and function together.

so,

even though a computer can't understand the concept of logic

it is still a logical device

and logic can be used to understand that device

a lion is also a logical device

and humans are also logical devices
You mean like there is certain set of rules we can follow?
Sure, then would you argue emotions are logical?
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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it would be stupid to say that there are no better or worse value systems.

 

EndogenousRebel

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How do you determine truth?

REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be empirically verifiable and or logically necessary
Empirically verifiable, and or logiccally necessary. What does logically necessary mean?


Let's ignore this article saying you can't use (just) logic to ascertain truth lmao. (this is central to my argument, but it seems like a different conversation is emerging so whatever)

It sounds like correspondence, coherence and consistency are your criteria.

You are talking about correspondence with "empirically verifiable". If I try to make the argument that when I go to Kenya the world will explode, then sure you got me beat.

However, this is not what I am doing. I am just pointing to the shortcomings of logic.
 

EndogenousRebel

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X (I have gone to Kenya)Y (The World Explodes)if X then Y (If I go to Kenya, the World Explodes)
TrueTrueTrue
TrueFalseFalse
FalseTrueTrue
FalseFalseTrue
This is a standard use of a truth table.

However, this is just pointing out the well-known rule of "If X then Y" equals "(NOT X) OR Y", as if you do the same truth table for "(NOT X) OR Y", you also get "true, false, true, true". It's a rather trivial result, as it's very well-known.

So you don't seem to be saying anything here.
That other truth table is just process of elimination >.> the truth table quoted is where all the attention can go.

This is an if then statement.

If X is false, then If X then Y is true.

If X is false, then if X then Y = not X then Y.

Sooooo. There is only one instance where X is true and Y is false, thus if X then Y is false.

By the way we can also get this.
not( X AND (not Y) ) = not(X) OR not(not Y) = not(X) OR Y

Any time X is false, if X then Y is true.

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You are the one that is trying to make logic appear to be something it is not from my perspective.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Empirically verifiable, and or logiccally necessary. What does logically necessary mean?

for example

dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum

the fact that i doubt

proves that i think

and this makes a thinker logically necessary
 
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