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Dear Worms. SUPPORT FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!

Old Things

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No, every human that has ever lived has had different genes from any other human in existence. even clones.

Whether or not that is true (I don't think it is) that's not what I was saying. I was saying nothing has happened to the organization of our genes such as where they go and how they function.
 

ZenRaiden

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it was common practice during socialism to jail people for being western agents just because they spoke their minds, or said something against establishment.
i wouldn't be surprised if they had more freedom of speech in USSR than we have in most of Europe today

EU took a big dump on freedom of speech when they introduced hatespeech laws without defining what hatespeech even is. Nowadays we're way beyond that.
We live in bizzaro world where the narrative is the power structure not the system.
So saying something is paradoxically more powerful than we might think, and as consequence we often are told you can say what you want, but .....
 

scorpiomover

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I am for free speech.

I am just opposed to free speech that is evil, that causes great harm and suffering for millions, just to benefit a few selfish b*stards, the same as I am opposed to anything that causes great harm and suffering for millions, just to benefit a few selfish b*stards.

IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT SPEECH YOU DISAGREE WITH,

YOU DON'T SUPPORT FREE-SPEECH
I am LIKE speech I don't agree with. That's how I learn best, from when other people disagree with me.

I just don't like it when years later, they tell me they agreed with me all along, and were only saying it because they wanted to get people riled up so they'd get more votes so they would win an election. Then why I ask why it was so important for them to win that election, they explain it's because they needed the money that they'd get from holding an elected position. Then when I ask why they needed the money, it was because prices were going up. Then when I ask why prices were going up, it was because people were getting riled up and lots of people weren't buying from the people who they were getting riled up over.

If they'd not gotten people riled up, then people would not have stopped buying from the people who they were getting riled up over. Then the prices wouldn't have gone up. Then they wouldn't have needed the money. So they would not have needed the elected position. So they would not have needed to win the election. So they wouldn't have needed to get people riled up.

It's a tragedy of errors: errors compounding errors leading to a tragedy.
 

scorpiomover

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um, what about Fox News thinking they had free speech regarding voting technology? Nope to the tune of 2.7 billion:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/fox-corp-must-face-2-183911236.html

“Fox Corp. Must Face $2.7 Billion Smartmatic Defamation Lawsuit, Judge Rules” Round 2 coming up… Those “stolen election” lies still haunting people…
Weren't the same people who said that the 2020 election was not rigged and not stolen from the Republicans, were the same people who were saying that the 2016 election was rigged and stolen from the Democrats, and the same people who were saying that the 2000 election was rigged and stolen from the Democrats?
 

scorpiomover

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However, there is and should always be social consequences.

there it is.

do you think that maybe, "moderation standards" and or "terms of service" should at least attempt to be transparent and logically-coherent ?
Yes.

Also, Adding political beliefs to the 14th and ensuring that public businesses cannot discriminate based on political affiliation would be helpful.
But then people couldn't discriminate against anyone else.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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I love free speech

I support Freedom of Speech but….and then comes their justification for NOT supporting freedom of speech. Maddening. How about “I am totally against pedophilia but….” and then suggest a case where it might be okay. When I use this example people say “you can’t compare censorship to pedophilia”. Yeah I can.

They are both 100% wrong. No grey area. When something is a bedrock moral principle it can’t be modulated.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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But then people couldn't discriminate against anyone else.

one, freedom of speech is the freedom of two or more people WHO WANT TO TALK to each other unrestricted by a third party
 

Black Rose

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one, freedom of speech is the freedom of two or more people WHO WANT TO TALK to each other unrestricted by a third party

a forum is a third party because it is not the private property of those two separate persons. you cannot use third-party public spaces to exchange info and expect not to have interference from that third party.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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It’s good to ban outright attacks on others or when the intent behind words is to harm.

The funny thing about ad hominem attacks is they are a DOUBLE-EDGED-SWORD.

If you really want to avoid ad hominems, you must also avoid "positive" ad hominems (praising someone's personal integrity and or "character" in order to attempt to boost the "credibility" of their claims).

I'm kind of an ad hominem purist.

Please try to present a logical claim without even mentioning the "source" of that claim.

Your identity cannot validate or invalidate your logic.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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a forum is a third party because it is not the private property of those two separate persons. you cannot use third-party public spaces to exchange info and expect not to have interference from that third party.

sure,

but it seems reasonable to expect

transparent and logically-coherent rules

and uniform enforcement

getting banned for calling your audience "worms" seems beyond ridiculous
 

Black Rose

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a forum is a third party because it is not the private property of those two separate persons. you cannot use third-party public spaces to exchange info and expect not to have interference from that third party.

sure,

but it seems reasonable to expect

transparent and logically-coherent rules

and uniform enforcement

getting banned for calling your audience "worms" seems beyond ridiculous

ok, but it also takes maturity to see what those things are.

Many complain when people are banned because they do not see what has happened in the past when those such persons were left to do what they did continuously. It is the responsibility of the admins to understand when a person is simply a trash person who does not care about anyone but themselves and when that person simply is being misunderstood. If you come to a place where all you want to do is get people to fight then that is not the same thing as free speech. You need to do allot more than call people names one time, you actually have to be motivated to hurt the character of other forum members and harass them. This was obvious what had happened so it was more about understanding how people operate on a social intelligence level. If people/persons are causing actual damage to the experiences of a forum then it is required to remove them. Just as in any public setting.

This issue has arisen time and time again and yet new people still complain because they have not experienced the fighting that has been caused and the inability to reconcile personal emotions in this or that argument. The fact is that some people are bad people and it is not the responsibility of others to fix them, the only thing that can be done is to separate them from the rest of the group if they have been identified as against that group's morals and values. The rules are obviously known to people who have been here 5 to 10 years now so jurisprudence has and is the baseline for removal of some people and not others.

Personally, I have seen what happens on forums where things have devolved. This involvement was initiated by setting certain precedents of allowed attacks on others. Those attacks became worse and worse until hacking and all such things happened. This is not Twitter or YouTube where people can get away with things in horrific ways. The rules were set up over a decade ago and people have learned what is and is not acceptable. I was almost banned but I learned what I did wrong but some people do not learn. If the objective of a person is to hurt others they are not welcome here even if they disguise it in the terms of "free speech". Those in charge understand the difference. They have been selected based on that maturity and have been here a long time.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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Many complain when people are banned because they do not see what has happened in the past when those such persons were left to do what they did continuously.

transparency
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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so it was more about understanding how people operate on a social intelligence level

this is an INTP forum

"social intelligence" is not exactly what we're known for
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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the only thing that can be done is to separate them from the rest of the group

the site could easily set a mechanism to make people you PERSONALLY dislike mutually invisible

with subscribable mute lists
 

Black Rose

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a forum is a third party because it is not the private property of those two separate persons. you cannot use third-party public spaces to exchange info and expect not to have interference from that third party.

https://substack.com/home/post/p-141069557

can you summarize, I did visually scan it somewhat.

Many complain when people are banned because they do not see what has happened in the past when those such persons were left to do what they did continuously.

transparency

Yes, the admins do give that, they do so where and when the event happens. All of it is recorded.

is simply a trash person who does not care about anyone but themselves and when that person simply is being misunderstood

logically-coherent rules

That can be found within the forum lists.

so it was more about understanding how people operate on a social intelligence level

this is an INTP forum

"social intelligence" is not exactly what we're known for

That is not the issue, many here are not INTP, this forum is welcome to all types.

The issue is in emotional and psychological misbehavior.

The admins understand when people are not logical and just are malevolent.

If people/persons are causing actual damage to the experiences of a forum then it is required to remove them

please quantify "actual damage"

When the disunity of the forums is at stake.
Example: posting child porn or less extreme: harassment, this is normal rules.

the only thing that can be done is to separate them from the rest of the group

the site could easily set a mechanism to make people you PERSONALLY dislike mutually invisible

with subscribable mute lists

That mechanism is in place, look for it.

but overall you need more than that because this is a small place where everyone knows each other. we want to keep unity.

The rules were set up over a decade ago and people have learned what is and is not acceptable

linx pleez

The rules are updated based on the current administration and amendments given by the approval of that governing body.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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can you summarize, I did visually scan it somewhat.

as i was reading the updates on this post this morning, a friend of mine posted on substack about how there is a "list" that is apparently identifying "problematic" accounts - - it seemed related to this conversation
 

Black Rose

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can you summarize, I did visually scan it somewhat.

as i was reading the updates on this post this morning, a friend of mine posted on substack about how there is a "list" that is apparently identifying "problematic" accounts - - it seemed related to this conversation

The internet is big, super big.

So moderations happen to be unequally applied everywhere.

Sometimes my roommate goes to Facebook jail.

Yes, the admins do give that, they do so where and when the event happens. All of it is recorded.

where is this information

In the admin logs.

The admins understand when people are not logical and just are malevolent.

please explain how they developed this magical ability

The founder Ragnar is over 45 years old, studied MBTI and Carl Jung, and developed software for a long time in Germany. Most admins are in their 30's and have years of forum experience. (also many have high IQ)
 

LOGICZOMBIE

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The founder Ragnar is over 45 years old, studied MBTI and Carl Jung, and developed software for a long time in Germany. Most admins are in their 30's and have years of forum experience. (also many have high IQ)

ok, sounds like faith to me
 

EndogenousRebel

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But you only made this false argument, to claim that logic has flaws as well as rhetoric. But you only did that to claim that because logic has flaws as well as rhetoric, that we are not better off by avoiding rhetoric, and therefore we should accept rhetoric as valid (except you haven't done that).

So why would you want to claim that rhetoric as valid as logic, using an argument that is false? Why not bring a true argument that rhetoric is valid, at least in some cases? Because if you used a true argument, then you would only be able to use rhetoric in the cases where it would make sense and thus be beneficial to other people? But if it would not be beneficial to anyone, then it would not be beneficial to you either. So then why suggest that rhetoric would be valid when it wouldn't help you, and would likely harm you? You wouldn't.

Ergo, you're only suggesting that rhetoric is valid using a false argument, in situations where if you would use rhetoric, it would be beneficial to you, but harmful to others, and so you show intent to do things to hoodwink other people into accepting things that would be better for you, but would cause suffering to everyone else. How is that not evil?

As you note, my point isn't to prove that me going to Kenya will make the world explode. It's just to point out the flaws in logic. People think logic is defacto reasoning, it's not.

The problem within the context of arguments, is that this logical expression is not invalid. It is indeed valid.

You can deploy logic in an argument correctly, but still have a flawed argument.

The same is true for appeals to emotion, and appeals to authority

So we're back to people trying to use their "free speech" to making up false arguments that benefit themselves while making everyone else suffer.

Hence why I behave as if I want to crush what you call "free speech".

I am for free speech.

I am just opposed to free speech that is evil, that causes great harm and suffering for millions, just to benefit a few selfish b*stards, the same as I am opposed to anything that causes great harm and suffering for millions, just to benefit a few selfish b*stards.

Sounds like you want to control speech. This was about you saying that people have "castigated" you, if you recall.

What comes to mind is the covid debate, where I basically had to unpack hours of courses I had taken a couple years prior to illustrate that society chose the system we live in. The aspects that were out of the populations control and in control of the establishment (in the US) were the parts that most damaged the population.

If you're going to use your free speech to interrogate me and make sure my reasoning is coherent, then I think it's only fair that I get to disincentivize that from happening by occasionally calling you a fucking idiot or something of that regard.
 

Old Things

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Related to this thread.

 

Grayman

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is simply a trash person who does not care about anyone but themselves and when that person simply is being misunderstood

logically-coherent rules

I don't know what it's like now but the admins used to rely less on very explicit rules and more on intuition and reason. There is some advantages to this if you can trust the admin because they can be more understanding and work with people and also recognize when a person is really trying VS someone who is here to just cause problems. A disadvantage of the rules not being specific and definitive is that user's aren't always sure when or what might get them in trouble and this can be uncomfortable or feel like you did something wrong but never were given a fair warning.
But in places where the rules are very detailed and enforced to the letter regardless of the situation, you have users who have been there long enough they know how use the system to get away with things that intuitively seem rather disingenuous.
 

Black Rose

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I don't know what it's like now but the admins used to rely less on very explicit rules and more on intuition and reason. There is some advantages to this if you can trust the admin because they can be more understanding and work with people and also recognize when a person is really trying VS someone who is here to just cause problems. A disadvantage of the rules not being specific and definitive is that user's aren't always sure when or what might get them in trouble and this can be uncomfortable or feel like you did something wrong but never were given a fair warning.
But in places where the rules are very detailed and enforced to the letter regardless of the situation, you have users who have been there long enough they know how use the system to get away with things that intuitively seem rather disingenuous.

Any person looking to become part of a private forum must realize that rules exist between the participants as a community. I got banned instantly when I joined one group in 2009 so it was not a matter of me being wrong or bad about anything but it was that they were tight-knit and did not want me there. That is why size matters and common ground. Communities form around a common cause interest or personality, yes so it is not like a huge place to be where you can just say block people and be done with it. This place is like a small town and a place to get along. And so like I said about the tech forum I was on where everyone loves Trump is that I cannot go into the politics section anymore because that place is driven by emotions, not logic yet I am fine in the tech areas and keep my mouth such about any facts they disagree with me about.

Both logic and emotion are necessary to run things but socially it is the fact that we do not want people to become mean or inappropriate. The ways those are defined matter but it matters more that people stop being immature and actually consider that not everyone is going to accept them (or any other people in general) and that you can't just walk into a place and disrupt its culture.
 

scorpiomover

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As you note, my point isn't to prove that me going to Kenya will make the world explode. It's just to point out the flaws in logic. People think logic is defacto reasoning, it's not.
Either your argument is reasonable or it's not. If it's reasonable, then you have not shown a flaw in logic, i.e. reasoning. If it's not reasonable, then it's not part of reasoning, i.e. it's not part of logic.

The problem within the context of arguments, is that this logical expression is not invalid. It is indeed valid.
In logic, it's valid to state "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded", so that you can examine if the statement is true, not that we already know it's true, as if we knew it was already true, we wouldn't need to examine it, and then we wouldn't need logic at all, and then no-one would even talk about being logical at all.

Sounds like you want to control speech. This was about you saying that people have "castigated" you, if you recall.
No, I don't recall that. I have said things like that. But mainly because they were trying to stifle my free speech.

What comes to mind is the covid debate, where I basically had to unpack hours of courses I had taken a couple years prior to illustrate that society chose the system we live in. The aspects that were out of the populations control and in control of the establishment (in the US) were the parts that most damaged the population.
IIRC, you were trying to avoid admitting that the people you supported screwed up, and were wrong.

If you're going to use your free speech to interrogate me and make sure my reasoning is coherent, then I think it's only fair that I get to disincentivize that from happening by occasionally calling you a fucking idiot or something of that regard.
Fine. Then you'll keep calling other people idiots to avoid being called an idiot. Isn't that idiotic?
 

EndogenousRebel

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As you note, my point isn't to prove that me going to Kenya will make the world explode. It's just to point out the flaws in logic. People think logic is defacto reasoning, it's not.
Either your argument is reasonable or it's not. If it's reasonable, then you have not shown a flaw in logic, i.e. reasoning. If it's not reasonable, then it's not part of reasoning, i.e. it's not part of logic.

The problem within the context of arguments, is that this logical expression is not invalid. It is indeed valid.
In logic, it's valid to state "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded", so that you can examine if the statement is true, not that we already know it's true, as if we knew it was already true, we wouldn't need to examine it, and then we wouldn't need logic at all, and then no-one would even talk about being logical at all.

Why my premise is valid.

Why my premise is unsound.


It's not a big deal dude. Everyone uses different technical terms, but it sounds like you're just trying to say something that is not true.

We are now far removed from the point I'm trying to make.

I want to be wrong, I have a belief about something, but I might as well just ask myself the questions you should be asking me, I wish I knew those, but you've completely missed the point.

Sounds like you want to control speech. This was about you saying that people have "castigated" you, if you recall.
No, I don't recall that. I have said things like that. But mainly because they were trying to stifle my free speech.

What comes to mind is the covid debate, where I basically had to unpack hours of courses I had taken a couple years prior to illustrate that society chose the system we live in. The aspects that were out of the populations control and in control of the establishment (in the US) were the parts that most damaged the population.
IIRC, you were trying to avoid admitting that the people you supported screwed up, and were wrong.

The people I supported? Do you mean the executive administration? Because the immediate response to the pandemic was not under the administration that I supported, and was later changed. Not like that matters, they didn't have much power in the first place. Except perhaps OPERATION WARP SPEED.

Either way I feel like there needs to be a refresher.




This first link is my second post on the Covid thread. Note how I am already pointing out that it doesn't matter what we do, because we did it too late.

You respond like 10 pages later to this post of mine.


I'm note sure what you're speaking on. You seemed to not like that I was saying that the unvaccinated were making the wrong decision.

I stand by that. Usually when people aren't held accountable to for anything, they make bad decisions.

You said I was "fracturing society".

Does disagreeing fracture society??

We had a lengthy discussion about many things.


If you're going to use your free speech to interrogate me and make sure my reasoning is coherent, then I think it's only fair that I get to disincentivize that from happening by occasionally calling you a fucking idiot or something of that regard.
Fine. Then you'll keep calling other people idiots to avoid being called an idiot. Isn't that idiotic?

I'll waste less time explaining things I know are true with little to gain. I would call that a success.
 

scorpiomover

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As you note, my point isn't to prove that me going to Kenya will make the world explode. It's just to point out the flaws in logic. People think logic is defacto reasoning, it's not.
Either your argument is reasonable or it's not. If it's reasonable, then you have not shown a flaw in logic, i.e. reasoning. If it's not reasonable, then it's not part of reasoning, i.e. it's not part of logic.

The problem within the context of arguments, is that this logical expression is not invalid. It is indeed valid.
In logic, it's valid to state "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded", so that you can examine if the statement is true, not that we already know it's true, as if we knew it was already true, we wouldn't need to examine it, and then we wouldn't need logic at all, and then no-one would even talk about being logical at all.

Why my premise is valid.
Go to 23:47
If you CAN tell a coherent story in which the premises are true and the conclusion is false, then the argument is INVALID.
So, is the argument "You didn't go to Kenya, and if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded. So I can thank you for the world not exploding", VALID?

Your premises are "you didn't go to Kenya" and "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded".

Your conclusion is "I can thank you for the world not exploding".

Well, no, because even if you had not been to Kenya, the world could have exploded due to nuclear war or a giant asteroid hit the Earth, or aliens blew it up.

So if the world had not exploded, it could still be the case that it had nothing to do with you not going to Kenya.

Since I COULD tell a coherent story that the world had not exploded because of a different reason to you not going to Kenya, such as that there was no nuclear war, then your argument is INVALID.

Why my premise is unsound.

It's not a big deal dude. Everyone uses different technical terms, but it sounds like you're just trying to say something that is not true.

We are now far removed from the point I'm trying to make.

I want to be wrong, I have a belief about something, but I might as well just ask myself the questions you should be asking me, I wish I knew those, but you've completely missed the point.
You may have missed the point about validity versus soundness. The 2 terms obfuscate the point.

Your argument

According to the 2nd video, if your argument is invalid, or any of your premises is false, then the conclusion is unsound (false).

But your argument was that "you never went to Kenya", and "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded" => "I have you to thank for the world not exploding", i.e. that you were the cause for the world not exploding. If both were true, then your argument was sound. But it could have exploded anyway, due to nuclear war. So there's no way that your conclusion could be true. So that means that your argument must have been invalid.

You may not have understood the difference between validity and soundness.

I wrote this out, but saw it was a wall of text. So I'm going to break it up into spoilers:

You don't need "soundness". "A and B" is true only when both A and B are true. So if A = the premises, and B = the logic/argument, then the A AND B is true only when the premises and the logic/argument is false. So as long as you think of "the premises and the logic/argument" = "the conclusion", you still end up with soundness. So "soundness" is not necessary at all.

So why talk about "soundness" at all?

Typically, in mathematical theorems, you will have a statement like Pythagoras' Theorem:

Axioms: Assume a right-angled triangle in a Euclidean space.
Conclusion: the square of the hypoteneuse equals the sum of the squares of the other sides.
(If you have a a right-angled triangle in a Euclidean space, then the square of the hypoteneuse equals the sum of the squares of the other sides).

If you can prove a theorem is true (valid), then in any situation in which the axioms (premises) are true, you can be certain that the conclusion must be true. So any theorem that is proved to be true (valid), then becomes a tool which you can apply in millions of potential cases.

Even if a theorem didn't apply to your current situation, it could easily apply to another situation that you encounter tomorrow, the next day, the day after that, and so on.

So you only need to prove a theorem is true (valid) once, for it to become useful in millions of situations in your life.

Thus, the whole point of distinguishing between validity and soundness, is to distinguish between proving the logic of your theorem (that your conclusion must be true in all situations where the premises are true), and checking if the axioms (premises) of your theorem apply to your situation.

That doesn't make any difference to a maths student who had to learn the proof of the theorem. But millions of engineering students are taught the formulas of lots of mathematical proofs, without being taught the proof. So they don't know if the theorem is true in a general sense. But they can check if the theorem applies to their situation, by checking if the axioms (premises) are true.

Thus:

Validity refers to the logic of the argument. Validity does not look at whether your situation matches the axioms. That is something anyone can do, who learns the proof, like a maths student, or you if you read the proof and make the effort to understand it.

Soundness refers to checking if your situation matches the axioms and thus if the theorem applies to your situation. That is something that engineers do all the time.

In your case, the following is true:

Axioms: Assume you never went to Kenya.
Conclusion: We have you to thank for the world not exploding.
(if you never went to Kenya, then the world would not have exploded)

Now, your premise that you never went to Kenya, is true. But your claim that "if you never went to Kenya, that the world would not have exploded", is not true, because it could still have exploded because of other reasons, like nuclear war. So your logic/argument is invalid.

However, you got confused, because you took "you never went to Kenya" and "if you went to Kenya, the world would have exploded" as your axioms, and jumped straight to "You were the cause for the world not exploding", and since you didn't need to prove the first 2 were true, you thought that your argument was valid, but unsound.

This is one of the reasons why it is a very bad idea to teach logic this way.

Another reason is that in engineering, people don't get situations that perfectly match the axioms of any theorem, as we never have rulers or gadgets that measure any length or weight to an infinite number of decimal places. We're always rounding off in real life.

But the logic of mathematics deals in abstract absolutes. So you can never really get any real-life situation in which any mathematical theorem can ever apply. So that means that all scientific theories built on maths have to be wrong, right?

Well, yes. BUT...if you understand the proof, you can add an error margin to your premises, and follow the theorem's logic through to its conclusion, with the error margins. Thus, you can calculate the error margin in the conclusion, from the error margin in your initial premises. Using that, you can then decide what error margin you need in your conclusions, and then calculate the error margin in your initial premises, i.e. you can then calculate how accurate you need to measure your premises, to get that level of accuracy in your conclusion.

OK. That makes sense. But then why not include that in your theorem? Well, you can. But then you've fixed the error margins.

What if you have multiple premises, and with one premise you can be extremely accurate, and in another you can't be all that accurate? Well, if you understand the theorem's logic, you can still work out a way to be as accurate as you need in your conclusion.

But if you don't understand the theorem's logic, then you can only stick to what you were taught, and then you can only use error margins according to the way you were taught, and then the above situation where you can't be that accurate in one measurement, but you can be very accurate in another, is a situation in which you simply cannot use the theorem. If you do use the theorem in such a situation, then you'll get the wrong answer. Then if you make a vaccine with that situation, your vaccine may be a lot less accurate than you realise.

Why? BECAUSE ERRORS MULTIPLY. They often don't add together. They MULTIPLY.

Unless you understand the logic behind a theorem, it is incredibly easy to get a result that will kill millions of people in a single year, when a slightly different approach would have resulted in only the deaths of a few hundred.

This is a problem that occurs a LOT nowadays. Someone develops a theorem or some logic that proves a conclusion under certain conditions. A politician hears about it, and thinks that it would be useful in the current situation. So he goes ahead, promises to solve major problems and gets elected because of it. Then it is applied. Everyone cheers. Then a few years later, reports highlight strange results. Then 10 years later, a calamity happens. No-one knows why.

The reason is often that the original logic made sense, in certain conditions. But the precise conditions in which the politician's idea was implemented, was extremely similar to the conditions of the theorem, but not quite, and the difference between them just so happened to mean the theorem's logic would not follow exactly in the real-life situation, and so the conclusion wouldn't be guaranteed to happen, and anything could have happened, and in this case, a calamity.

Now, had the politician known this in advance, of course he would not have done it. But the premises of his situation were so eerily close to the axioms, and only had to be tweaked ever so slightly because of practicalities and political considerations, that no-one thought it would ever make any difference.

Had the politician and his advisors learned the proof, and understood it, they would have realised this immediately. But they didn't, because soundness is considered to be a different issue to validity. So they thought that their argument was sound, when it wasn't, because they didn't properly understand the validity of the logic and how it actually worked.

An apt analogy of the difference between validity and soundness as validity = "comprehension of an argument" and soundness as "memorisation of an argument". Soundness means you know the formula. But you don't really understand why it's true.

Now wait. This all makes me sound very clever, doesn't it, as if I understand all this much better than anyone else, right?

Actually, the only reason I know this, is because my maths teacher told us this and made us prove it. He explained that in maths exams for our qualifications for graduating high school, have long questions. So you'd have a part, and then use the answer for the 1st part, in the 2nd part, and so on. Most teachers would let students use a calculator for each interim calculation. But he pointed out that calculators would only calculate to so many digits, and that ERRORS MULTIPLY, and so if we used calculators to calculate the interim results, our end results could be way off, and then we would lose marks for getting the wrong answer.

So he MADE US DO ALL OUR MATHS QUESTIONS WITHOUT USING A CALCULATOR! That made all our homeworks and mock exams much harder than all the other students. But you know what? He was right. We all got As for every exam he prepared us for, bar one person who didn't do all the homeworks, and even he got an A and a C.

I sometimes used to test his claim by using a calculator in the practise exams he gave us, just to see what would happen. A lot of the time, it didn't make much of a difference. But in some exam questions, I would have been way off if I had used a calculator.

So I learned from that.

Unforunately, not everyone had a maths teacher who was like that.

I'm going to stop now for the night. If I get a chance, I'll come back to the rest in a few days.

But please understand, that having watched at least the 1st video and some of the 2nd, I don't blame you for your error. I hold your educational system responsible for not making it clear what happens when you separate validity from soundness, and don't require that students and scientists learn the proofs of the theorems they use. It makes things easier, but much more dangerous.
 

Black Rose

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@scorpiomover

So all logic is correct all the time or it is not logic?

maybe, but that is not the point I think.

What you and @EndogenousRebel are really arguing about is the difference between rationalism and empiricism.

8Gj6Owl.png
 

EndogenousRebel

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I have a relative who is going for their PhD in Philosophy. They have been a logic tutor on campus, for a couple years. I'm fairly sure I have recounted what I have learned about vacuous truths accurately.

In any case I could write any false premise and the conclusion would be true.

1. Pigs can fly.
C. I'm the president.

Same with if we make a conclusion about something that does not exist.
1. Unicorns do not exist.
C.All unicorns are tigers.

Ultimately again, my point was to critsice pure rationality. It is an object that people often associate with reality, it is not.

"This statement is false" is completely dead in the water without human reasoning.

Don't know what else to say. I was trying to write about how logic in arguments is pretty weak by itself. If you want to argue THAT, instead of an example I used to illustrate that, that would be cool.
 

Old Things

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EndogenousRebel

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Old Things

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Logic exists outside of human perception. You do not get to change the laws of logic because you don't like them. I cannot believe I am having this conversation. This is mind-numbingly retarded.
 

EndogenousRebel

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You'd think that people would accept that. Yet people believe that they are the shepherds of logic. If someone says something that contradicts something the believe, they will call it illogical to make themselves feel more comfortable, even though the authority of logic has nothing to do with what they believe.

 

Old Things

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Old Things

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There is nothing subjective about whether an argument is valid or not. You can critique the premises, but if the premises are sound, then the argument is sound with a valid argument. That's why it was so stupid to say you can come up with any premises you want and make the conclusion true. That is not how logic works.
 

Black Rose

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it was so stupid to say you can come up with any premises you want and make the conclusion true. That is not how logic works.

the conclusion can be true with the premises being false

the premises do not make conclusions false or true, reality is what does that.
 

Old Things

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You'd think that people would accept that. Yet people believe that they are the shepherds of logic. If someone says something that contradicts something the believe, they will call it illogical to make themselves feel more comfortable, even though the authority of logic has nothing to do with what they believe.


You really need to learn the basics before you end up in lala land.
 

Old Things

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it was so stupid to say you can come up with any premises you want and make the conclusion true. That is not how logic works.

the conclusion can be true with the premises being false

the premises do not make conclusions false or true, reality is what does that.

Yeah, that's is something completely different that is a truth as an accident.

We are talking about arguments. And formulating a good argument is a skill.

If I make an argument saying,

Pigs fly,
Therefore,
The earth is round

The conclusion is true, but it is not a valid argument.

So it's just dumb to say you can come up with any premise and make the conclusion true. Even if the conclusion is true, it does not mean that the argument is valid.
 

Old Things

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I'm like, not even good at logical-type stuff, but this whole conversation is just stupid.
 

Black Rose

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So it's just dumb to say you can come up with any premise and make the conclusion true. Even if the conclusion is true, it does not mean that the argument is valid.

@EndogenousRebel was saying people do that regardless and think what they are saying is always true "because logic".
 

Old Things

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So it's just dumb to say you can come up with any premise and make the conclusion true. Even if the conclusion is true, it does not mean that the argument is valid.

@EndogenousRebel was saying people do that regardless and think what they are saying is always true "because logic".

You can't throw out the whole system of logic because some people say things are logical that are not. The rules of logic still apply even if some people say things are logical that are not. It's a stupid conversation to have.
 

EndogenousRebel

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@Old Things I don't understand why you're stating obvious things. What are you interpreting about my writing?

@scorpiomover made the case that if people only formed decisions based on reason and logic, people would be free from fallacy.

I simply was pointing out that no, logic can lead someone astray, and eitherway, people don't depend on logic to begin with.
 
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