Dating Sims and Synthetic Relationships

[Pyropyro]

It was unfortunate enough that my curiosity got the better of me and I watched the Me!Me!Me! video.

Warning: The Know your meme entry is slightly NSFW while the real video (not linked here) is EXTREMELY NSFW.

Aside from its NSFW material, the video is a jab at the otaku culture and their past times. Although there is much to discuss about the culture itself, my post would focus on one of the otaku's prime hobbies: dating sims.

Dating sims are simulation games where you can build relationships with various NPC's and can be rewarded with romantic or even sexual scenes and dialogues. Now, in it itself, the genre is harmless but there are some people that seem to see these games as a substitute for actual relationships. It is even becoming a problem in Japan (see link here) since more and more people are trying to take their sim's relationships way too seriously and become less and less interested with having sexual and romantic relationships with actual people. Not having more offspring is a very serious issue in a country that has a declining and aging population.

I think that dating sims might be more immersive than porn since the players also form emotional attachments to their characters. Current tech (Cog might be more able to explain the concept behind this than I could) can now enable the players to virtually have sex with their characters.

Since we INTP's, especially younger ones, are really not that good with relationships we might be more tempted to immerse in these synthetic relationships rather than enjoy actual ones.

What do you think?

 

[Jennywocky]

Awwww.....

Spoiler

Frighteningly enough, I got a positive jolt out of that. Dear god.

Anyway, you're asking if people who feel socially awkward might be more tempted to invest in virtual relationships with non-human people? That's not really rocket science. It sounds pretty darn probable.

 

[Pyropyro]

Awwww.....

Spoiler

Anyway, you're asking if people who feel socially awkward might be more tempted to invest in virtual relationships with non-human people? That's not really rocket science. It sounds pretty darn probable.

Yeah, but my concern is if we're more prone on taking it too far. I don't mind people playing dating sims. I played some during my younger days. Good for entertainment but they're quite useless for actual IRL conversations/relationships.

 

[OrLevitate]

Not having more offspring is a very serious issue in a country that has a declining and aging population.

I thought people were breeding too much and overpopulation is looming over our future like an apocalypse?

wiki says afghanistan has the highest unemployment rate, offer flights from there to fill the holes in your country's economy! Might need to offer a speedy educational program, or just pay them less? Maybe, make it easy for them to enter illegally so they can get paid less than minimum wage? Then you can have them do the menial work and the people that know your countries language-- citizens, can be offered subsidized education where necessary. If necessary, taxes could be slightly increased on sectors that heavily benefit from the decreased price of labor due to the afghanis, in order to fund the subsidization of educating citizens to fill other roles.

 

[Pyropyro]

I thought people were breeding too much and overpopulation is looming over our future like an apocalypse?

wiki says afghanistan has the highest unemployment rate, offer flights from there to fill the holes in your country's economy! Might need to offer a speedy educational program, or just pay them less? Maybe, make it easy for them to enter illegally so they can get paid less than minimum wage?

The issue is more about demographics rather than overpopulation. Social security checks comes from the income of younger generation. If Japan's population decline continues then there would be less younger people to pay for retirement benefits of older people within the next few decades.

As for your Afghan idea, well let's just say that the Japanese are not quite welcoming of foreigners.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, but my concern is if we're more prone on taking it too far. I don't mind people playing dating sims. I played some during my younger days. Good for entertainment but they're quite useless for actual IRL conversations/relationships.

I think it's always possible to take anything too far. Not just dating sims, but any form of escapism. People don't always just escape into date sims, it can be anything that supplants dealing with "real life."

Then again, we could discuss what 'real life" is and what makes it more relevant than "sim life." Basically, (1) "real life" involves some kind of bedrock experience that you can't ignore or escape from or you'll suffer negative consequences, and (2) if "sim life" doesn't involve the same degree of complexity and realistic types of outcomes -- essentially providing a positive endgame experience regardless of choices -- then it can lead to improper understanding within the external world that makes one maladapt.

But let's say you never have to involve in your 'physical body' again. Would that mean that sim world is now acceptable?

 

[Pyropyro]

...if "sim life" doesn't involve the same degree of complexity and realistic types of outcomes -- essentially providing a positive endgame experience regardless of choices -- then it can lead to improper understanding within the external world that makes one maladapt.

This is part of my concern. Even the best simulation cannot compare to the complexity of life. A person (let's say INTP) who got too immersed in these games and store these flawed social data in their Si. They might be rudely surprised when they use these data IRL, causing them to fall back to the sim world and continue their anti-social spiral.

But let's say you never have to involve in your 'physical body' again. Would that mean that sim world is now acceptable?

Good question, the virtual life would become more important than the real one. However even if one has become a virtual construct, they still need to pay the bills for the upkeep of the sim world (internet connection, electricity etc.) They may still need to produce something useful for the real world like say, using their processors for mundane calculations as work.

I think I mentioned this virtual life on one of my older threads about a human hive mind.

 

[Desired Username]

Mannequins are nice

 

[Pyropyro]

I don't play dating sims, I don't idolize fictional characters, I resist the temptation to succumb to the temptation of living a pleasant fantasy, I wouldn't be such a miserable nihilistic condescending fuckwit if I did.

Yeah, I think we're okay with you merely a condescending bastard.

But I do dream of a world where love can be bought, where there's artificial intelligence and advanced robotic bodies so I could be with some beautiful girl who loves me inherently, who will accept me for both the person and the gender that I am, who honestly wants me for me.

I don't just want to have sex with her, I want to eat in a restaurant and not be looked at strangely for being there alone, I want to show her off and bask in the envy of my peers, I don't want a sex slave, I want a cybernetic goddess to save me from my pathetic banal existence and for that I would worship her.

Yeah I'm idiot

See the vid that I posted earlier. They are already doing that (eating in the restaurant etc.) with their dating sim partners. The physical gadgets for both intimate and romantic activities are also available in the market. I think it's only a few years until they can make AI's complex enough for your robot.

 

[Cognisant]

Meh scripted AI, not interested.

A simulated neural net would be good but then it has to learn everything itself so I'm the one effectively raising it and after that a relationship would just be creepy.

The physical gadgets for both intimate and romantic activities are also available in the market.

Y'see now if I was going to pay money to feel ashamed I'd spend it on a hooker.

 

[Pyropyro]

Meh scripted AI, not interested.

A simulated neural net would be good but then it has to learn everything itself so I'm the one effectively raising it and after that a relationship would just be creepy.

Pygmalion wasn't squicked with that issue at all when the sculpture that he carved called Galatea become human.

Y'see now if I was going to pay money to feel ashamed I'd spend it on a hooker.

Just tell them it's for research purposes

 

[Lot]

Meh scripted AI, not interested.

A simulated neural net would be good but then it has to learn everything itself so I'm the one effectively raising it and after that a relationship would just be creepy.

So I'm guessing you weren't a fan of Chobbits? You're really missing out

Chi just wants her one and only

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

It's not just men, japanese women/other women have a separate genre of dating sims called Otome and I would guess some of them fall for the same idealised-delusional trap.

That is not to say there aren't girls interested in hentai and the like.

I'm not so sure about this issue, yes the society is damaged, but more importantly people begin to embrace new realities and these synthetic, machine generated realities might be what will support people in the future.
If we want to talk about the advent of the AI and virtual realities, then this is a very good trend that shows that even in a relatively low complexity virtual designs people can get lost without return.

I wouldn't say it's a bad thing if they get what they want that way. Sure, currently they get a very cheap joke, but it gets better.

*Drugs for everyone, artificial happiness for everyone*

 

[Cognisant]

As individuals we seek happiness and as a society we seek it too, to put it simply happier people are more productive and easier to govern, but there's nothing about being happy that's natural.

Natural selection would have us strive, compete and create misery for one another, no matter how rich you are you'll always want more, no matter how much sex you have you'll always want more (which may be a more attractive partner) no matter how powerful or famous you are you'll always want more.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I wouldn't say that people who fall for dating sims are particularly fit.
I also wouldn't completely agree that people would always seek more, but that depends on the definition or perspective. Evolution is the trend upwards, but taken individually it's a series of level steps of stairs.

 

[The Gopher]

Yo Cog, have you ever seen Black Mirror season 2 episode 1. (They are individual stories and completely different "world" each episode so no context is needed) I'm curious what you would think of it.

(oh yeah it might not seem like it's related at the start)

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Dating sims woo! I think I only played one and found it hilarious. Although it wasn't really a dating sim more a murder death and destruction sim with dating thrown in as somehow the focus...

 

[Bock]

Overall I think women are just a lot less driven to pursue relationships, hell all the single women I currently know are being asked out and hit on all the damn time and they don't want any of it, some have high standards and others are just shy. Either way there's lot of single guys out there who find themselves so hopelessly out-competed they simply give up and in all honesty I'm on of them. Sure I'll make a token attempt every now and then but I've been single for I guess four years now and as far as I can tell there's no light at the end of the tunnel, in fact being depressed about it probably makes may chances all the worse.

So yeah believe me when I say it's not the lack of sex that's a problem, sure sex is great but you can live without it, the real problem is the emotional and psychological effects of being alone particularly once you've all but given up hope. Society seems to measure men by their promiscuity so not getting any makes you feel like a failure, trying to get the attentions of women who clearly aren't interested makes that feeling even worse, finally once you decide that you've given up that's it, there's nothing left.

Psychologically your ego is bankrupt and once you have no sense of self worth why not give in to temptation, fantasy is no substitute for the real thing but it's a damn sight better than nothing.

+1

Having a job/money means little in the western world, the nuclear family is gone and nobody really needs a breadwinner (also uncontrolled female hypergamy etc). Problematic for me since i'm neither tall, good looking nor a social genius. Maybe if i become a neurosurgeon...

 

[Anktark]

Hmm, I must be emotionally immature because I treated dating simulators like other games- figure out how they work and dropped it when I got bored. Which was fast since they are essentially the same game with different graphics, perfunctory game play and very little innovation. Which seems like a fitting metaphor for actual dating.

 

[Jennywocky]

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Dating sims woo! I think I only played one and found it hilarious. Although it wasn't really a dating sim more a murder death and destruction sim with dating thrown in as somehow the focus...

^^ Yeah, that sounds like my dating life.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Hmm, I must be emotionally immature because I treated dating simulators like other games- figure out how they work and dropped it when I got bored. Which was fast since they are essentially the same game with different graphics, perfunctory game play and very little innovation. Which seems like a fitting metaphor for actual dating.

I'm not surprised, dating sims are usually unreal and simplified stories, there doesn't have to be anything immature or wrong about not feeling the connection with pixels on the screen, novels or works of art in a museum.

 

[Pyropyro]

I'm not surprised, dating sims are usually unreal and simplified stories, there doesn't have to be anything immature or wrong about not feeling the connection with pixels on the screen, novels or works of art in a museum.

There's nothing wrong with playing these games. However, if it leaks to your real life then it becomes a problem.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

I've never played these types of games so I don't know the effects but people need touch, smells, real conversation which these games don't provide. I doubt there is much to worry about other than the outliers who fall in love with inanimate objects.

Of course, INTPs and INTJs may fall into that more than another type.

 

[Bock]

 

[Black Rose]

mostly i cant decide on what the person i love looks like but i know their personality would be rare in real life. i think we will have the perfect a.i. by 2024 and nanotech 2027.

 

[Pyropyro]

I've never played these types of games so I don't know the effects but people need touch, smells, real conversation which these games don't provide. I doubt there is much to worry about other than the outliers who fall in love with inanimate objects.

Of course, INTPs and INTJs may fall into that more than another type.

They already figured out smells and touch. Real conversation is still far away though. But yeah, I'm concerned that INTP's are more susceptible as outliers.