Daenerys Targaryen, Why Fire and Blood?

[JansenDowel]

Danny decides to burn Kings Landing to the ground. It’s irritating and wholly unsatisfying, but not because it doesn't make any sense at all. It is unsatisfying because it doesn't show us anything we do not already know.

The joy of good TV like Game of Thrones is not that it is unpredictable. The joy is that it shows us something that makes sense, but we did not believe was possible. The pleasure behind discovering new dimensions in a good story is the same pleasure as discovering deep truths about ourselves and the world we inhabit. We discover what’s possible, but it’s always stranger and more wonderful than we could ever have imagined.

In season one when Ned was beheaded, it was violent, shocking and completely unexpected. But this is not what made it great. The reason we were so shocked to see Ser Ilyn Payne axe his head is because it uncovered a deep truth about the world of Game of Thrones. It showed us something that was always possible, but that we did not believe until it happened. This one scene revealed that the ‘game of thrones’ is more sinister and more dangerous than we could have ever imagined. It completely changed our understanding of the nature of the show we are watching, and cast our beloved characters into a new savage world where nothing is certain.

What makes a good scene, however, is also what makes it unrepeatable. The fact that Westeros is more savage than we originally expected is the very reason an axed head cannot be shocking again. We have already learned that truth, and we cannot learn it again. This reality that was once stranger and more deadly than we originally expected is no longer ‘stranger’ and ‘more deadly’. It is just strange and deadly.

Danny's decision is disappointing not because it doesn't make sense, but rather because it does not show us something we did not already know was possible. There is no nuance under her character arc that is revealed by bringing fire and blood. We learn nothing new about her, or the world she inhabits. All we are shown is what we already know is possible. And to make things worse, we aren't even told why she made one choice, and not another.

 

[Damian Doritos]

I recently understood the show is a big brother, that's why I stopped watching it at like 4th season. They teach you is cool to talk bs behind each other backs and to ally to shit on other people stuff. Very thin lines in terms of good and evil. And I already deal with that bullcrap everyday.

Instead go watch black mirror, this one teaches you about society misalignment with technology. Which I think if much more interesting and less toxic. 5th season came out yesterday.

 

[JansenDowel]

I recently understood the show is a big brother, that's why I stopped watching it at like 4th season. They teach you is cool to talk bs behind each other backs and to ally to shit on other people stuff. Very thin lines in terms of good and evil. And I already deal with that bullcrap everyday.

Instead go watch black mirror, this one teaches you about society misalignment with technology. Which I think if much more interesting and less toxic. 5th season came out yesterday.

No thats not true at all. It doesn't teach you its cool to talk bs behind each others backs. Little Finger is not a good guy... Niether is Walder Fray or Roose Bolton. I doni't believe you have actually watched the show at all.

 

[Jennywocky]

Season 5 of Black Mirror was "eh," to be honest. Two of the episodes weren't horrible, but it's not "top of its game" stuff like some prior seasons. Still, I found "Smithereens" an apropos commentary on the current state of social media, especially when it can reduce human trauma to simple notifications that interrupt other people's days; and I think "Striking Vipers" is fascinating simply because of its ambiguity and people trying to find solutions that are by nature imperfect to their own boredom and/or emptiness.

Getting back to Game of Thrones, what sucked since it went off book was the terrible pacing, which resulted in hitting some major plot points without doing the character building arcs that would support them adequately. They did drop signposts occasionally, and I don't have an issue with the plot points that were revealed; I have a huge issue with the fact they were not properly explicated via the show as they were in the first four seasons when the show was "on book." Having showrunners need to explain why characters behaved as they did in their "after show videos" means the show was "telling, not showing" and it means they failed in their writing. Also, the lack of proper pacing meant a lot of logical inconsistencies springing up since Season 5 and thus leave the show looking more sensationalized/soap-opera-ish rather than the kind of character and plotting realism underlying the first four seasons.

There's no fucking reason why they should have basically dropped a character starting in Season 5 and doing almost nothing with the character, then suddenly in the finale decide to make that character central to the resolution of the story (i'm obviously avoiding spoilers). Dany also doesn't destroy the city for rational reasons (which could be justified simply by history), or because she is mentally ill like her father (she's portrayed as lucid, just angry), the showrunners actually were dumb enough to say she makes the decision spontaneously (in an after-interview) when the bells are ringing. Even though they have already set up that she has decided she would rule from fear, not love. Jeeez. If she made a spontaneous decision, it should have been just to blast down the red keep but spare the citizens. If she was going to burn the city, they should have leaned in to it -- it should have been the PLAN between her and Grey Worm, without telling Jon (because he would just get in the way), and I actually thought it might have been, but then they didn't have the balls to commit and thus created a plot point that NO one liked or found believable. Even with their bungled scripting, it could have STILL worked better than how it actually did.

There was so much I could bitch about in the last two seasons or more of this show that is poorly written, badly put together from world-building / realistic perspective, or violates preestablished characterizations, and part of it was the fact they didn't take the extra time HBO offered them in order to do it right.

To me, it's become a clear example of one of those great shows that completely drops the ball in its final stretch because the showrunners didn't have a clue as to how to tell a story anymore. Great acting, great production quality, shitty plotting and storytelling.

 

[Damian Doritos]

dude i only watched till the night guard crew killed jon snow, after that i watched 2 or 3 episodes more, it has it's interesting parts, like when the mountain destroyed the skull of the chilean guy, etc. but i really don't remember why i lost interest in it. i'm just not interested anymore in smartass conversations in claustrophobic spaces.

Spoiler: subjective hate on got

i have an acquaintance who's always bashing against me anytime he can (ask him why), and he's got a complex that makes him think he's the main character in whiplash (the guy who wants the drummer to play perfect) and he's obsessed about game of thrones. my attempt to rationalize his bully attitude against me is that he wanted to play the guitar? but he could never become a composer and he's got no idea on how to compose and that's why he's all the time watching videos about what make this famous song and that good and he sees i'm good at it and i can actually write cool stuff on my own without anyone telling me what to do. he just doesn't like punk attitude. the worst thing is that i actually like him besides that negative side, and we have a common friend who i actually like quite a lot. so we have to work it out somehow. he's recent hate for me is that i've been painting for a year and sparks about my art are starting to release, jesus why can't people just stick their noses in their own ass.

on black mirror; Jenny, i agree, 5th season wasn't as good as 3 or 4 but it was cool enough for me, except for the last episode with miley cyrus. wtf was that. i guess it was targeted at young girls?, i was puking all the way through it.
but i loved the other 2.
how many times did i think, wow if my best friend guy was a girl i would have sex with him. and it's like that, and i think the way they resolve the problem at the end of the chapter is super cool. i thought about that so many times, wow it has to be so boring to be married, the medicine has to be to let people have fun once in a while, i guess it's just hard to keep the compromise, etc.
then the facebook kidnapper was soooo cool. i have a personal story with the song (but i guess who doesn't?) can't take my eyes off of you wich kicks in at the end that made me feel even more into it.
i really think social media made me lost my last relationship (ofc not in this drastic way like in the episode) and i won't go into details.

u netflix i know u come here to intp forum to read my stories and make money with them.
special mention to: love and other drugs.

another personal opinion: vikings is much better than got until its final season.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah, the Mile Cyrus episode wasn't bad because Miley was in it (she was actually one of the best elements of the episode, which is sad), it's because the episode wasn't even clear about what it was trying to accomplish until about 40 minutes in. It was aimless / all over the place, it seemed for a bit to become a cliche of teenage girl alienation (in the most shallow ways possible), and then became kind of slapsticky/stupid in terms of the plot contrivances... and it ends on a "happy" note without really dealing at all with the problems of the ideas/tech it brought up in its last 20 minutes. Plus, the alienated teenage girl is happy while still being alienated now, sitting alone in a corner while her sister rocks out. Honestly, it's one of the worst things I think I've seen, it really needed to start over with the idea Brooker was interested in (regarding the use of artists as commercial corporate fodder via technologically stripping their ideas for consummation) and focus on that for 40 minutes or however long it would take.

 

[sushi]

how to alpha like tywin lannister/charles dance

anyway, i only barely know the show plot, will probably watch it in the future.

 

[scorpiomover]

Danny decides to burn Kings Landing to the ground. It’s irritating and wholly unsatisfying, but not because it doesn't make any sense at all. It is unsatisfying because it doesn't show us anything we do not already know.

Ned Stark was killed brutally on the orders of Joffrey. But then it was political.

Cersei Lannister kills a lot of powerful nobles. But when she does it, it's incredibly shocking, as she's in prison and supposedly powerless, while Ned Stark is killed by people who (at the time) wield a lot of power.

Daenerys Targaryen shows us something we didn't see before at all in GOT. Cersei and Joffrey are both pretty cruel and brutal people, who seem to only be interested in their own power. Daenerys has shown great sympathy for slaves and made lots of efforts to free them. She seems to be one of the few good people in GOT. So lots of former Westeros people seem to want her to rule, as they believe that she will bring peace.

Then when she burns King's Landing, it turns out that she's almost as cruel and brutal as Cersei and Joffrey.

You're meant to conclude from it, that kings/queens who intend to be good, turn out to be evil more evil than the psychpathically evil kings and queens, like Joffrey, and so ALL monarchies are pure evil, even if they started out good.

That's why Jon Snow kills Daenerys. You're supposed to think that Danni can't be reasoned with, that no-one can stop her from doing this again and again all over the world.

Bran Stark is only considered to be a good king, because:
(a) He is selected by a panel of nobles, i.e. elected democratically,
(b) He can't walk, and so anyone can get rid of him when he turns bad, equivalent to the modern day idea of removing someone from office due to an impeachment trial.
(c) he can have no children, and so his throne cannot be inherited, and so the next king would also be elected, i.e. something similar to fixed term democracy.

It's basically a sales pitch for the current Western political system.

 

[Jennywocky]

how to alpha like tywin lannister/charles dance

anyway, i only barely know the show plot, will probably watch it in the future.

I would only watch it through Season 4 (the first four were really great), or maybe into some of Season 5 (ignoring the Dorne subplot), and then ditch it like a hot potato... although we got occasional good things (like the Hardhome episode, or The Door, or the resolution to the Ramsey plotline, etc.).

The showrunners ran out of book in Season 5 (for some portions), and they just either could not emulate GRRM's intricate plotting and characterization and/or basically threw their hands in the air and gave up by Seasons 7-8, which from a writing perspective were just phoned in. They were just rough notes for story, although I think the technical excellence was generally there from the film crew and the directors typically did the best with the crappy story they were given. They really dropped the ball, probably because they just were not quite as skilled at drafting scripts without specific source material, and because they were sick of doing the show, and they really wanted to move to other projects (although now their "star wars trilogy" fell through after they signed on with Netflix, who is Disney's competitor).

Mentally, I kinda block out the final two seasons. I think the major plot points were given them by Martin, but D&D did not do the writing they needed to do to justify them rationally so they come off as half-baked. I think it would have been super-powerful to take a character who much of the fan base loved, who they could identify with in some ways, who had the best of intentions and wanted to help so many people, and show how easily they could fall into the abuse of power and become what they hated -- especially in today's current environment.

But that descent was simply not written well.

 

[scorpiomover]

how to alpha like tywin lannister/charles dance

anyway, i only barely know the show plot, will probably watch it in the future.

I would only watch it through Season 4 (the first four were really great), or maybe into some of Season 5 (ignoring the Dorne subplot), and then ditch it like a hot potato... although we got occasional good things (like the Hardhome episode, or The Door, or the resolution to the Ramsey plotline, etc.).

The showrunners ran out of book in Season 5 (for some portions), and they just either could not emulate GRRM's intricate plotting and characterization and/or basically threw their hands in the air and gave up by Seasons 7-8, which from a writing perspective were just phoned in. They were just rough notes for story, although I think the technical excellence was generally there from the film crew and the directors typically did the best with the crappy story they were given. They really dropped the ball, probably because they just were not quite as skilled at drafting scripts without specific source material, and because they were sick of doing the show, and they really wanted to move to other projects (although now their "star wars trilogy" fell through after they signed on with Netflix, who is Disney's competitor).

Did not know this. The earlier seasons were interesting.

But the last 2 did seem to be unbelievably stupid.

Tyrion KEPT underestimating Cersei, even though it was obvious after the first attack, and her blowing up the citadel, that when threatened, she prefers to strike first, while the enemy travelling to the battlefield, so that she kills her enemy before the battle even begins. How hard is it to expect a moving attack?

It was like he was a moron. This was funny, because in the earlier seasons, he's really quite strategic, and even wins a battle by using a secret passage. But then, maybe he was only a genius on alcohol.

The way the dragons are killed is pretty pitiful. The Night King kills one dragon with a dragon-sized spear. Cersies' armies shoot lots of dragon-sized arrows and kill another. Doesn't anyone understand how important these dragons are? At least give them some armour.

But no. Daenerys was not a dragon-mummy that would make her children wear a coat in case it rains.

Also, after Daenerys burns alive those 2 knights who won't swear loyalty to her, she seems to be pretty cruel and heartless. Makes you wonder why Tyrion, Varys and Jon didn't realise that "the apple didn't fall far from the tree", and she was just as mad as her father The Mad King.

Also, why on Earth didn't Jon just marry Daenerys? He loves her. She loves him. If they both rule as Queen and Consort, the true king is still on the throne anyway.

How come no-one thought, that if the dead would come back to life and attack for the Night King, that surely the answer is to defend at all costs, avoid anyone getting killed at all costs, and if anyone dies, decapitate him and set the body on fire, or at the least, give him a stab with a piece of dragonglass.

Also, an evil zombie dragon? Just didn't work. The good living dragons still burned people to death on command, just on the command of Daenerys Targaryen. The evil zombie dragons were just like the live ones, only on the command of the Night King.

Also, how come Arya is the one to kill The Night King, and only by accident? Big let-down.

Also, bit of a let-down, having Bran Stark as the king of all of Westeros.

I think it would have been super-powerful to take a character who much of the fan base loved, who they could identify with in some ways, who had the best of intentions and wanted to help so many people, and show how easily they could fall into the abuse of power and become what they hated -- especially in today's current environment.

I don't think that was possible. In the end, Cersei, Daenerys and Stanza were in charge, with Arya the best assassin in the land. If some of the advisors were women, it would have completed the set. But as it was, Cersei and Daenerys were both pretty homicidal.

They could have done with more POC. I would have thought the Dornish would be POC, from the GOT version of North Africa. As it was, they seemed more like they were from the South of France or Spain.

Also, where were the Chinese-looking people?

Also, when do we see the rest of the GOT world? Could they build a spaceship to explore an entire universe of GOT-style worlds in the GOT universe?

So much could have been done here. So many characters came and went, it was like a Fantasy soap opera. It could have kept going for decades. Other soap operas do.

Hmmmm....maybe that's REALLY what SF&F fans want: SF&F-themed soap operas (TV series) and a few feature-length episodes (films).

What do you think?

 

[Jennywocky]

Did not know this. The earlier seasons were interesting.
But the last 2 did seem to be unbelievably stupid.

Tyrion KEPT underestimating Cersei, even though it was obvious after the first attack, and her blowing up the citadel, that when threatened, she prefers to strike first, while the enemy travelling to the battlefield, so that she kills her enemy before the battle even begins. How hard is it to expect a moving attack?

It was like he was a moron. This was funny, because in the earlier seasons, he's really quite strategic, and even wins a battle by using a secret passage. But then, maybe he was only a genius on alcohol.

Yeah, Tyrion and Arya I think were GRRM's favorite characters that he wrote. (Or maybe he said his wife's was Arya.) Tyrion was justifiably brilliant as long as they were pulling on GRRM's actual text for their scripts, but he was a complete dolt in the last few seasons to the degree it became a running joke even in the show -- how many MORE times could Tyrion fail before Daenerys fired him?

Pretty much the entire audience figured out in the siege of Winterfell "Why are you hiding the children and women in the crypts when the Night King RAISES THE DEAD?" I saw an interview with Peter Dinklage where even he shook his head and says yeah, he thought of that, but maybe Tyrion was drinking too much or not drinking enough to put it together (or something to that effect). His whole pitch as to why Bran should be king ("He has the best story") was laughable -- we just watched eight season of characters with FAR BETTER STORIES than Bran's.

Tyrion's intelligence was unfortunately based on the showrunners' intelligence. I think GRRM is probably pretty smart because his Tyrion was smart, but the showrunners not so much.

The way the dragons are killed is pretty pitiful. The Night King kills one dragon with a dragon-sized spear. Cersies' armies shoot lots of dragon-sized arrows and kill another. Doesn't anyone understand how important these dragons are? At least give them some armour.

I could give them a pass on the first death because no one expected the dragons could be killed. The second death was handled so ridiculously and as an obvious plot device, not something realistic. "OH look, an entire fleet appears out of nowhere when they are doing aerial recon and happens to hit the dragon with the first shot when it's wheeling." So awful.

Also, after Daenerys burns alive those 2 knights who won't swear loyalty to her, she seems to be pretty cruel and heartless. Makes you wonder why Tyrion, Varys and Jon didn't realise that "the apple didn't fall far from the tree", and she was just as mad as her father The Mad King.

Well, they kind of were thinking about it. But she burned the leaders only, not their subjects. What she did in King's landing was ridiculous because the entire town had basically turned on Cersei and never wanted to fight her, and had surrendered. I could definitely see her based on past behavior going after Cersei and tearing down the Red Keep, but not at all what she did after they surrendered.

Also, why on Earth didn't Jon just marry Daenerys? He loves her. She loves him. If they both rule as Queen and Consort, the true king is still on the throne anyway.

You mean instead of what he did in the finale? Well, she still had her dragon and her Unsullied. So she was still dangerous and I think he couldn't trust her. (Scanned him as ISFP or something, her choices probably tore out his heart and he could no longer trust her morally.)

How come no-one thought, that if the dead would come back to life and attack for the Night King, that surely the answer is to defend at all costs, avoid anyone getting killed at all costs, and if anyone dies, decapitate him and set the body on fire, or at the least, give him a stab with a piece of dragonglass.

Preaching to the choir. I could write a full article about all the things wrong with that terrible siege of Winterfell from a strategic POV.

Also, an evil zombie dragon? Just didn't work. The good living dragons still burned people to death on command, just on the command of Daenerys Targaryen. The evil zombie dragons were just like the live ones, only on the command of the Night King.

I was okay with the idea of a zombie dragon but not the implementation of it.

Also, how come Arya is the one to kill The Night King, and only by accident? Big let-down.

It was lame. There was all this hinted-at backstory for the Night King and instead he was just a video game villain taken out by a knife feint. Totally ridiculous.

Worse, I watched "The Last Jedi" later (which aired before GoT episode) and they basically stole this move from that film -- Rey does it in the throne room battle very distinctively, to defeat someone who was killing her. I don't think I've seen it anywhere else, and the fact TLJ came out at the right time for them to think of it when writing the script for that episode makes it probably derived directly from the film.

Also, bit of a let-down, having Bran Stark as the king of all of Westeros.

I would like to see how GRRM supports it, since I know he will set it up much better if that is indeed the end to his books.

Technically, too, I think Sansa is Queen/King of the North, not under Westeros rule per se. [I have to say, too, that this was the largest surprise for me: I hated Sansa in Season 1, she was such a spoiled stupid girl wanting entitlements, and over the seasons she did become one of my favorite characters because she learned from her tribulations, got smart, and became a mature woman with spine. She was a survivor and became very canny. I would have been totally cool with her taking everything over.]

I don't think that was possible. In the end, Cersei, Daenerys and Stanza were in charge, with Arya the best assassin in the land. If some of the advisors were women, it would have completed the set. But as it was, Cersei and Daenerys were both pretty homicidal.

The fan base loved Daenerys. There was so much outrage when the season aired. They did not love Cersei, she was the villain everyone loved to hate. They hated it because they saw Daenerys as a hero, not as a villain. So that is what I'm referring to. Take a hero and show why all along she was descending into this kind of behavior because of her ideals, that's the kind of instructive lesson people could learn from.

They could have done with more POC. I would have thought the Dornish would be POC, from the GOT version of North Africa. As it was, they seemed more like they were from the South of France or Spain.

I have no idea.

Also, where were the Chinese-looking people?

I have a faint recollection of maybe something like that being hinted at but not sure anything was ever explored.

Also, when do we see the rest of the GOT world? Could they build a spaceship to explore an entire universe of GOT-style worlds in the GOT universe? So much could have been done here. So many characters came and went, it was like a Fantasy soap opera. It could have kept going for decades. Other soap operas do.

Only five books ever came out, and he's been writing book six for 10+ years or something? DOn't recall. There are supposed to be 7 books altogether. There are fears he will die first.

The showrunners were sick of doing the show (it's obvious), and all the actors were locked down for years. The show did run for 8 years or something and was in production for longer.

Hmmmm....maybe that's REALLY what SF&F fans want: SF&F-themed soap operas (TV series) and a few feature-length episodes (films). What do you think?

Well, it's why The Witcher is doing so well on Netflix....