D&D; Unreasonable NPCs.

[SpaceYeti]

That sounds like an interesting character. What did he not like about his own people? My Eladrin disagrees with most of her society that eladrin are better than elves and drow.

In that particular campaign, his people were a very anal, red-tape sort. Historically, his people had information and magic which could help save the world, but instead of simply helping powerful heroes they put them through tests and trials before helping in any way. His people were also lawyeriffic in general, with bureaucratic bureaus of bureaucracies for every little thing. Besides that, of course, they appreciated art and song and arcane arts, just like it says in the book. In that way, he was very much like them, but he grew so tired of his people's bureaucracies that he even refused to use his racial power unless it was absolutely necessary, just to avoid going into the feywild, where his people live. He tried to find alternate methods of teleporting to make up for it. He was a swordmage, btw, so found quite a few fun teleport powers. Above all that, his art of choice was cooking. Being an adventurer, he found interesting meats to cook, and interesting spices to cook with.

Phobias can be fun, certainly. One of my characters was phobic about rugs and tapestries. My eladrin is terrified of bards. I have played xenophobia a few times, but I am not very good at it, so it comes across as half-hearted. It is certainly a challenge to have character who thinks they can justify racism, slavery, murder, or other heinous thing, and I've enjoyed the challenge of all of those. It often leads to some insight into why people would think that way for real, and gives me a chance to deeply consider my own arguments against those things. Who says RPGs are just for fun?

As you may notice above, my eladrin was so phobic of going back home, and always mistrustful of other eladrin. Though, eladrin you meet outside of where they came from probably left because they weren't typical, so were likely not anal pricks (he was somewhat anal about food, though, thyat being his art). I had a paladin that was xenophobic. That was fun because he was generally altruistic, but if something from somewhere else were attacking, he'd make sure to make it dead, unless he had time to think and remind himself not to be unreasonable. The elf who hated humans was fun, too, using their manner of living as an excuse. Humans destroy natural beauty and then plant farms instead of simply eating the food already there?!

Wow, something where I disagree with you completely. In 3.5, you just had to make a list of the spells or feats you had, and then say "I waste him with my crossbow!" (I love Knights of the Dinner Table.) There were flanking rules and line of sight, and tracking encumbrance was always a pain, but that was about it.

In 4E, I have this ridiculously cumbersome list of available spells, since I'm playing a wizard, and everyone has to keep track of how many daily item powers or daily powers they used, actions points, which implement or item they are using, whether it has the "Fire" or "Martial" keyword, whether the opponent is bloodied or insubstantial or whatever.

The powers are easy. Power cards. When you use a non-at-will, flip it over. Can't do it again without using some other power that might restore it somehow. If it's an encounter power, flip them front side forward again after a short rest. The power card should list all the variables for that power, just add them to your normal bonuses for whatever implement or weapon you're using.. Action points are easy. You either used one or you didn't, and you get a new one every two fights, the same time you can use another daily power. One per fight. Keywords are no different than in 3.5, it's simply more straight forward. There was always "fire damage" or "cold damage", 4th edition just puts all those kinds of things the power is right there in a list. I will say status effects are far more prominent for bad guys and for every power, but in 3.5, who didn't go into combat with their magical items granting such and such effect already? The difference is that 4th edition is more organized.

I do use the Character Builder, which does a lot to precalculate everything. Then I produce the quicksheets for a one-page list of most-used powers and feats. I have my spells in two sets, so I don't have to spend time choosing them each day, and I just alternate. It seems like no matter what we do to simplify and precalculate, though, it is just cumbersome. I think we've found the difference in the times our combats take.

This must be it.

To be sure, I have never been much of a tabletop wargame player. Starfleet Battles is certainly more complicated than 4E.

[/quote]

Tabletop wargames tend to be almost boring due to the necessary rules references. Incidentally, I'm working on a war game based on one of my old D&D campaigns.

 

[Trebuchet]

Above all that, his art of choice was cooking.

A fun and challenging hobby to play. The trick is to make it an important part of the character, assuming it is not just flavor text. I had a character once who liked to cook (RuneQuest, not D&D), and he who took on a bunch of enthusiastic poisoners trying a political coup. Cooking became a means of diplomacy, defense, and profit. It took some cooperation from the DM, of course.

Humans destroy natural beauty and then plant farms instead of simply eating the food already there?!

Cute, I like it.

The powers are easy. Power cards.

Do you buy them or make them? We looked into buying them, but they sure got expensive if you also wanted the Powers sets and needed Forgotten Realms (where we play). We could afford it, but weren't sure it was worth the money.

The power card should list all the variables for that power, just add them to your normal bonuses for whatever implement or weapon you're using..

So you don't have characters changing their implement or weapon? Our paladin has an enormous sword and has to get into melee to use it, so he puts it away and uses something else for ranged fighting. The ranger has a phasing and a wounding longbow. Obviously, keeping track of two or three bonuses isn't hard, but it does slow things a bit. That is why I like them precalculated.

Even with everything precalculated, it takes longer than you describe. I don't know how to display a spreadsheet here, but this is basically the content I have ready.

Fire Shroud-L3 | 16 v Fort | Close burst 3 | d8+11;5 | Fire | 7x7 square centered on me, ongoing 5 fire

Now, if I use this spell, I identify the origin square, roll a separate attack on each enemy in the area of effect, then apply damages to them. Let's say there are 5 of them in the area, and 3 got hit. When it is the enemies' turn (often in a big mob like you do), some have ongoing damage at the start of the turn, then roll saves at the end of the turn. Some may have fire resistance.

So I roll 5 attacks, one damage. The DM rolls 3 saves at the end of their turn. And we have five people in the group. In one combat, at least two of us are likely to use an action point, which at paragon levels means there is some other effect as well. Turns take a really long time for us.

I put in all this boring detail because I am starting to suspect that we approach the very mechanics of the game differently, and your way clearly has some advantages.

 

[SpaceYeti]

A fun and challenging hobby to play. The trick is to make it an important part of the character, assuming it is not just flavor text. I had a character once who liked to cook (RuneQuest, not D&D), and he who took on a bunch of enthusiastic poisoners trying a political coup. Cooking became a means of diplomacy, defense, and profit. It took some cooperation from the DM, of course.

No, it was more than flavor text. It was how he seduced an NPC who was traveling with the group (well, plus his intellect and interest in the arcane) it was our reason for stopping at every town to try the local specialty or delicacy (which he got ideas from and also tried to figure out how to improve (one town had aweful shellfish chowder, but he made his own and it wound up that it was just that the shellfish in the area sucked as an ingredient)), and he also wanted to stop to find rare ingredients or good cooking wines. He also refused to use magic to help him cook (except maybe to start the fire or conjure a pan, but no direct cooking magics), because it's an art, not just a way to make sustenance taste better.

Cute, I like it.

That guy was fun to play, but I also only got to play him for, like three sessions.

Do you buy them or make them? We looked into buying them, but they sure got expensive if you also wanted the Powers sets and needed Forgotten Realms (where we play). We could afford it, but weren't sure it was worth the money.

I make my own. I buy note-cards with colored tops, and use the colors to organize them by their frequency of use (generally dailies are blue or grey, encounters are red or orange, at-will is green). I place all the information I need to use the power on it and note all variables, so I don't need to flip through the book to figure out my powers.

So you don't have characters changing their implement or weapon? Our paladin has an enormous sword and has to get into melee to use it, so he puts it away and uses something else for ranged fighting. The ranger has a phasing and a wounding longbow. Obviously, keeping track of two or three bonuses isn't hard, but it does slow things a bit. That is why I like them precalculated.

On the character sheet, I mark down the different bonuses the character gets to attack and damage with each weapon or implement, so that's already right there on the sheet. I modified the character sheet a tad to work better for the way I use it. I'll try to attach a copy to this post. Anyhow, when a character switches a weapon, they simply use the prepared bonuses for that one instead of the old one we was previously using.

Even with everything precalculated, it takes longer than you describe. I don't know how to display a spreadsheet here, but this is basically the content I have ready.

Fire Shroud-L3 | 16 v Fort | Close burst 3 | d8+11;5 | Fire | 7x7 square centered on me, ongoing 5 fire

Now, if I use this spell, I identify the origin square, roll a separate attack on each enemy in the area of effect, then apply damages to them. Let's say there are 5 of them in the area, and 3 got hit. When it is the enemies' turn (often in a big mob like you do), some have ongoing damage at the start of the turn, then roll saves at the end of the turn. Some may have fire resistance.

So I roll 5 attacks, one damage. The DM rolls 3 saves at the end of their turn. And we have five people in the group. In one combat, at least two of us are likely to use an action point, which at paragon levels means there is some other effect as well. Turns take a really long time for us.

I put in all this boring detail because I am starting to suspect that we approach the very mechanics of the game differently, and your way clearly has some advantages.

The only thing I really do is make the rolls and then describe what happens. Oh, and when somehting dies, it always, always says "blarg". No matter how it died, no matter what it is, no matter if it can even speak. But what you describe sounds pretty easy. Roll the attacks, tell the DM the numbers, roll damage unless he tells you not to bother. The DM marks ongoing damage for the monsters, accounting for resistances, gives them the damage at the start of their turn, rolls a d20 at the end of their turn. Mechanically, that's all. After the attack and damage, the DMs says what actually happened ("Three of the bug-bears react too slowly to avoid the flames, catching fire and stinking up the place with the smell of burnt hair). If something's on fire and burning, you don't need to tell people that it's taking damage, though you might want to remind people it's on fire. If it makes the save, tell the players the monster swatted out the remaining fire. All of those things together take maybe two minutes.

Edit; I didn't realize the file size limit for an uploaded image was so very restrictive. Seriously, 64kb? That's all?! I'm trying to find a good format for the image to reduce size without crewing the quality too much.

Super edit; The format is GIF and I has to make it super small, but you can still get the good things out of it.

 

[Trebuchet]

No, it was more than flavor text.

As my DM says, it gave you something to do and something to say. My cook character was where I learned the trick of always, always having a list of things my character wants. It can be information, a service, an item, or whatever. So when it comes time to trade or make a choice, there is something driving it. If I am doing the bargaining in a game, we probably won't end up with the best possible deal, but we will end up with something to make the game more complex or cinematic or funny.

I make my own. I buy note-cards with colored tops, and use the colors to organize them by their frequency of use (generally dailies are blue or grey, encounters are red or orange, at-will is green). I place all the information I need to use the power on it and note all variables, so I don't need to flip through the book to figure out my powers.

I figured that had to be the case, that you made your own. Since I have access to Character Builder, I decided to try a simulation. I printed it in color and cut out the cards, which are the standard size that come in a box. 29 cards (including item dailies and encounters) take up a lot of space, so I am not sure we'd have room for a map. We have those map tiles, which are great, but not small. Do you make your cards small or play on a big table?

Anyway, I didn't want to dismiss the idea without at least seeing how it looks, but a spreadsheet seems much more compact than cards, without any information loss. I'll try the cards, though, to see if they work better for us.

The only thing I really do is make the rolls and then describe what happens. Oh, and when something dies, it always, always says "blarg". No matter how it died, no matter what it is, no matter if it can even speak.

I love that. Ours are not so consistant. Sometimes they are simply removed from the map, and other times they deliver a prophesy or death curse. Some do say blarg or similar, of course.

But what you describe sounds pretty easy....All of those things together take maybe two minutes.

I really do appreciate your taking the time to go through all the mechanics stuff here. Yes, all that takes about two minutes, but that is for only one character. We have five on our side, and probably around five on the other side, and many of them have 2 claw and 1 bite attack, or an area effect of their own. Even if the others go one after the other, that is a good 20 minutes per round. Sometimes we finish in only 2 rounds, but 5 rounds is common against tough opponents. So it still ends up nearly 2 hours per combat.


The character sheets you posted are the same ones we used when we started the game. We switched to the ones by Shado. The difference is mainly aesthetic, though, because the information you need is the same. Shado also created power sheets to write precalculations.

Anyway, I'll see about making my own cards the next time I have a lot of free time.

 

[SpaceYeti]

As my DM says, it gave you something to do and something to say. My cook character was where I learned the trick of always, always having a list of things my character wants. It can be information, a service, an item, or whatever. So when it comes time to trade or make a choice, there is something driving it. If I am doing the bargaining in a game, we probably won't end up with the best possible deal, but we will end up with something to make the game more complex or cinematic or funny.

A shopping list is generally something to improve the game, both magical items and otherwise. I don't like to waste time making my players look for a particular magical items in different cities, though. A city or village or whatever either has items of that level (and so you can find one of that kind) or it does not. For starters, a single ritual can make any item you want, limited only by resources and level. Secondly, magical items are necessary parts of game balance, so saying one person can get cool item but other person can't kinda sucks for the second guy. Also, the variations you want in mundane gear are the same variables you'd search for in magical gear (color, engravings, etc)).

I figured that had to be the case, that you made your own. Since I have access to Character Builder, I decided to try a simulation. I printed it in color and cut out the cards, which are the standard size that come in a box. 29 cards (including item dailies and encounters) take up a lot of space, so I am not sure we'd have room for a map. We have those map tiles, which are great, but not small. Do you make your cards small or play on a big table?

You don't keep them all on display at all times. Firstly, you want to separate them by big distinguishing factors, such as frequency of use. I usually don't even separate them that way, so we still have only two piles; Used and unused. I like to separate them by what kind of action required to use them. A pile for standard actions, move actions, minor actions, free actions, and interrupts, plus the used powers pile are what I stick to. You can shuffle through and look at your standard actions while deciding what to do on your turn, as that's probably the biggest pile and the meat of your actions. The cards in your other pile should number so few that you'll remember each of them, the pile simply reminding you that they're still viable options. I generally don't pick free action powers, due to extreme rarity and they tend to underwhelm. With interrupt powers, it's more important to remember what triggers them than anything else, so just read them frequently enough to remember when you can use them. Basically, remembering what your non-standard powers do is more important than remembering your standard actions. At any rate, I tend to have only three or four piles, counting the used pile, as I tend to keep all non-stnadards in the same pile after reading through them each.

Anyway, I didn't want to dismiss the idea without at least seeing how it looks, but a spreadsheet seems much more compact than cards, without any information loss. I'll try the cards, though, to see if they work better for us.

A spreadsheet may work well. I've never really tried it with powers such that I could dismiss it. The only problem I could foresee is distinguishing between used and unused powers as quickly.

I love that. Ours are not so consistant. Sometimes they are simply removed from the map, and other times they deliver a prophesy or death curse. Some do say blarg or similar, of course.

Some may curse the PCs or something, but when he says "blarg", that's when we know they're done doing things.

I really do appreciate your taking the time to go through all the mechanics stuff here. Yes, all that takes about two minutes, but that is for only one character. We have five on our side, and probably around five on the other side, and many of them have 2 claw and 1 bite attack, or an area effect of their own. Even if the others go one after the other, that is a good 20 minutes per round. Sometimes we finish in only 2 rounds, but 5 rounds is common against tough opponents. So it still ends up nearly 2 hours per combat.

That takes about two minutes, and it was counting some of the turn for three non-minion bad-guys! With five people, realistically, each round should take 5-10 minutes. each extra person makes the length of combat go up at a curve, not linearly. "2 claw and one bite" sounds much more like third edition to me than 4th. I don't recall any powers that give you 2 claw and 1 bite attack, and in 4th, your powers are pretty much the deciding factor in what actions you take.

The character sheets you posted are the same ones we used when we started the game. We switched to the ones by Shado. The difference is mainly aesthetic, though, because the information you need is the same. Shado also created power sheets to write precalculations.

No they're not. They're a modified version of that original character sheet, laying things out in a way I found more intuitive and utilitarian. For example, it now shows the math for the attack bonus and damage bonus for each weapon, laid out like other such math with a bunch of variables, like AC. Compare what I put up to those old ones and you'll see the differences.

Anyway, I'll see about making my own cards the next time I have a lot of free time.

It doesn't usually take much time, but I also usually do it for low level characters and simply add more on level-up/item-acquirement.

 

[Trebuchet]

I don't like to waste time making my players look for a particular magical items in different cities, though.

No, a shopping list is tedious, unless it is the main part of the current quest or campaign. Being ready with something that my character wants is more for spicing up interactions. My eladrin has a drow ally who was after a particular sword. We found it but it was a nasty piece of work, and very powerful. Actually, it was icky enough that none of us wanted it, so we gave it to the drow. But what to ask in return? We could have traded for another magic item of similar value, I am sure. Instead, I traded for information on how to keep Handmaidens of Lolth from dominating us. This was not in the main story, but fit some encounters in the past and likely in the future. It let the DM give us a complicated and dangerous (but optional) side quest we can try at any time.

I like to separate them by what kind of action required to use them. A pile for standard actions, move actions, minor actions, free actions, and interrupts, plus the used powers pile are what I stick to.

Ah, I see. That sounds promising. I don't know if it will work but it is worth giving a try.

A spreadsheet may work well. I've never really tried it with powers such that I could dismiss it. The only problem I could foresee is distinguishing between used and unused powers as quickly.

Tick marks in pencil. The spreadsheet is divided the way you described, with At-Wills, Encounters, Dailies, and Interrupts in groups, and they are listed with whether they are a standard action or a move, etc. It also has range/melee, keywords, and whether it attacks AC or Will or whatever, so it is easy to find something to fit the current situation. That includes things like Fey Step, item powers, etc. So if I am facing something with a strong Fortitude that is vulnerable to Psychic powers, I can read down my keyword column and defense column, and find something good.

That takes about two minutes, and it was counting some of the turn for three non-minion bad-guys! With five people, realistically, each round should take 5-10 minutes. each extra person makes the length of combat go up at a curve, not linearly.

Okay, okay! For us it seems to be linear. Maybe we are just slow or something. I wish I could play an actual combat with you to see how you are doing it differently.

"2 claw and one bite" sounds much more like third edition to me than 4th. I don't recall any powers that give you 2 claw and 1 bite attack, and in 4th, your powers are pretty much the deciding factor in what actions you take.

We don't have all those attacks. Harrowblades sure do though. Actually I have never seen the stat block for harrowblades, but the DM really let them have at us. It is entirely possible they were something from 3.5. Our campaign is set only a couple of years after the Spellplague. Sometimes we run into things. But you are right, generally bad guys have a single attack.

No they're not. They're a modified version of that original character sheet, laying things out in a way I found more intuitive and utilitarian.

Ah, I was too hasty. I will examine them again.

 

[gwydion85]

Just curious if any of you have ever played Palladium or any of it's incarnations?

 

[SpaceYeti]

No, a shopping list is tedious, unless it is the main part of the current quest or campaign. Being ready with something that my character wants is more for spicing up interactions. My eladrin has a drow ally who was after a particular sword. We found it but it was a nasty piece of work, and very powerful. Actually, it was icky enough that none of us wanted it, so we gave it to the drow. But what to ask in return? We could have traded for another magic item of similar value, I am sure. Instead, I traded for information on how to keep Handmaidens of Lolth from dominating us. This was not in the main story, but fit some encounters in the past and likely in the future. It let the DM give us a complicated and dangerous (but optional) side quest we can try at any time.

Maybe "shopping list" isn't quite the proper idiom. A list of things you want could also include information or even simply to go to a ball where you might dance. My point is that it's easier to remember what you want if you keep a list of them, especially if there are time you go a while without playing that character. It reminds you what they were up to.

Ah, I see. That sounds promising. I don't know if it will work but it is worth giving a try.

With certain characters, you may even want to keep another separate pile depending on keywords they're strong with or something with flavor they really like, and prefer to use over other powers. It really depends on the character and their level.

Tick marks in pencil. The spreadsheet is divided the way you described, with At-Wills, Encounters, Dailies, and Interrupts in groups, and they are listed with whether they are a standard action or a move, etc. It also has range/melee, keywords, and whether it attacks AC or Will or whatever, so it is easy to find something to fit the current situation. That includes things like Fey Step, item powers, etc. So if I am facing something with a strong Fortitude that is vulnerable to Psychic powers, I can read down my keyword column and defense column, and find something good.

I've never really had a problem simply remembering which powers had what keywords or attacked which defenses. Of course, I spend most of the time when it's not my turn simply going through my powers. When I'm playing, obviously. Monsters are easier. They do fewer things.

Okay, okay! For us it seems to be linear. Maybe we are just slow or something. I wish I could play an actual combat with you to see how you are doing it differently.

No, I mean for each player more, it takes longer per player to do anything, because more people are BSing or arguing over rules, or whatever.

We

don't have all those attacks. Harrowblades sure do though. Actually I have never seen the stat block for harrowblades, but the DM really let them have at us. It is entirely possible they were something from 3.5. Our campaign is set only a couple of years after the Spellplague. Sometimes we run into things. But you are right, generally bad guys have a single attack.

Some monsters have powers that let them use multiple basic attacks, perhaps modified, but monster turns take very little time, ultimately. Move, attack. Maybe one of their special things if it seems appropriate or they're desperate or they have the free action. Done. Granted, there may be a save in there, or ongoing damage, but that stuff takes as long as a di roll or subtracting.

Ah, I was too hasty. I will examine them again.

I don't have the copyright, I modified them for personal use. If you like them, or get an idea from them, feel free to do whatever you need for your own games.

 

[gwydion85]

Okay, reading all of this made me have to try and find a place around here that I could even play with people at a hobby store. And, I'm so far from civilization, I can't even do that. The only place that even *sells* D&D around here is walmart and target. The nearest hobby store is about 45 minutes to an hour away. I hate this place. =\

 

[SpaceYeti]

Yeah, living in the sticks sucks. That's part of the reason I moved from the sticks for that short amount of time I lived there. I haven't been updated on the online thing my friend found, but I'll post it either in this thread or start a new thread when I hear about it. This thread has made me want to start playing. I think I'm going to start taking D&D stuff on missions.

 

[gwydion85]

That's cool. I don't really have any choice about living in the stick for at least the next three years. It's not the most isolated Navy base, but the ones that are more isolated aren't much worse.

 

[dark]

Haha! First day after moving to the university I met two NTs, then the seconds day... we went to the basement to search the place and discovered D&D, so now I'm making a character sheet. So far within 5 hours the group that was originally 4 people including the GM, is now over 14 since all we did was talk about it and more kept hearing us. So by the looks of it we have a group of almost all NTs, looks like an ENTJ maybe 1 NF and 1 SP.

 

[Trebuchet]

Sounds like a great university. My college had a lot of such people, too and it was wonderful.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I've been playing around with ideas for how to make encounters shorter, yo. Try this on for size;

When in a dungeon, make each floor or set of rooms that are connected, or whatever, something like one or two encounters worth of XP (monsters and traps) But break down the fights into one or two regular monsters (maybe an elite) and a bunch of minions. I would probably go with two regular (maybe a level above the PCs? Or maybe three at one or two levels lower?) or one regular and an elite, to avoid it lacking stractics or apparent challenge. The only fights that really need a full load would be important fights. I'd simply design these dungeons with a bit of a larger fight than normal at the end, so that it's an obviously more difficult challenge, but makes up for the lack of used resources from the smaller, broken up fights earlier. Or simply have an extra one or two total encounters worth of monsters. It'd be easier, though, so maybe give out slightly less XP than normal?

It's a work in progress, but it seems like it'd work.

 

[gwydion85]

Space Yeti, have you heard about the online d&d from your friend yet?

 

[SpaceYeti]

Nope. Another idea that fell through with online D&D.