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cultural indoctrination?

WALKYRIA

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Is it possible to not be completely influenced by the local culture(consciously or unconsciously?)? or We are doomed to forever be biased toward our local culture?
Is the denial of local culture the best thing for objectivity?
 

redbaron

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Is it possible to not be completely influenced by the local culture?

Obviously.

We are doomed to forever be biased toward our local culture?

Obviously not.

Is the denial of local culture the best thing for objectivity?

Depends what the local culture is.
 

Pinion

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I can't stand my birth culture (USA) and plan to emigrate after college, probably to Japan since I already have two high school friends who've made that transition. What is "completely influenced," though?
 

Cherry Cola

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Whatever your denial it will be a reaction against the denied and so -if but by proxy- inescapably shaped by it. So no there is no objectivity in practice.
 

PhoenixRising

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It does seem that the psyche is geared to adapt to the social system that happens to surround it. At the least, one must learn the language of their culture and the parameters of conduct in order to communicate and ultimately survive. Language in itself limits and defines the way one thinks - I don't know if this effect can be escaped except through the disillusionment that comes with learning other languages.

I've never met anyone that was completely defined by their local culture. I have met some who have been able to escape the influence of it largely, or at least have become aware of its mechanics so much that it becomes a tool rather than a factor that defines their sense of self. So in short, no I don't think it's possible to be entirely influenced by culture, and yes! it's very possible to think outside of it =)

As far as objectivity goes, I don't believe that any human is capable of true objectivity. The mind is subjective by nature, it functions from a constructed worldview that is made up of the best estimates of reality. This worldview is often very much influenced by cultural ideas, but it is quite possible to analyze these concepts and replace them with one's own logical alternatives. Through this process, it is possible for one to come closer to understanding things in a more realistic light, but this depends on the capability of the individual to deduce the principles of reality and separate them from their own fiction.
 

Grayman

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It wouldn't be healthy if you has no social influence.
 

PhoenixRising

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It wouldn't be healthy if you has no social influence.

I wonder, what is the definition of healthy..? And would such a universal concept (meant to apply to all people) be realistic?
 
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Is it possible to not be completely influenced by the local culture(consciously or unconsciously?)?

Absolutely. In order to go through the looking glass we need to expose ourselves as much as possible to other cultures in order to experience alternative thought systems. Spending time with foreign exchange students or living in a foreign country come to mind.

or We are doomed to forever be biased toward our local culture?

To a certain degree. After living in a foreign culture for the latter third of my life, I still find it hard to shake some of the biases I grew up with. Language "hard-wires" in us at about the time of puberty, and it seems to a certain extent the same can be said about cultural notions. Also, some cultural notions are baked into language.

Is the denial of local culture the best thing for objectivity?

I don't believe denial is necessary to gain objectivity, but rather an increased exposure to other cultures helps us to see the limitations and mistaken assumptions of our own native cultural understanding of the world. This can help us to have a more objective frame of reference. We should weave these ideas together to form a more holistic worldview.
 

Brontosaurie

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1. no, other things influence too.

2. no, you may have a stronger opposite bias which effectively cancels out your nativity/local bias. however, local surroundings (in a broader sense) are probably the main causal determinant.

3. i won't answer since i don't like the idealization of objectivity. subject and object are mental constructs alike, they are mutually dependent and neither of them is superior
 

Grayman

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no, other things influence too.

no, you may have a stronger opposite bias which effectively cancels out your nativity/local bias.

i won't answer since i don't like the idealization of objectivity. subject and object are mental constructs alike, they are mutually dependent and neither of them is superior

I never recognized the irony until you put the two together. I believe that both should be used to find your answers but which answer do you choose.
 

Cherry Cola

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@Bronto: Agree, and besides if you rid yourself of culture completely starting from birth, well you'd end up an uneducated retard with no clue about anything. Owing to the fact that you would still be human -thereby, viewing the universe through the lens of human senses and cognition- there would still be no room for objectivity.

The terms are really rendered obsolete once considered to their full extent. They are at best heuristic constructs, their existence justified not by inherent truth but through service in the striving for truth.

In other words what Mindtheplatonic gap says is the best advice hitherto.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Culture is the backbone of civilization.
It is a necessary evil to get people together, create a sense of common interest and motivate individuals within the group to cooperate.
Don't worry, in the not too distant future we will have a homogenous global culture which will erase all traces of "local culture" everywhere on the planet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M
 

WALKYRIA

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Thanx everyone... I really would want to discuss this topic deeply and come to a clear conclusion... Although the topic is large. As I said it already, I'm a mixed bag, mixed background dude with no feet on the ground( imagine for example a mix between japan and africa; living in Europe !)...

Sadly I'm in exams now... and cannot spend too much time here... but i'll be watching.

for the topic, I was initially thinking about religion( but there are so many other problems):
-I'm interested to know how the psyche of people from a religious background(ex: islamic background!) evolve once they migrate in an atheist country( where they need to conform to local rules!)? I heard that it was linked with an increase in schizophrenia in those people... And thus, can two or three distinct world view coexist in the same brain;Is our brain capable of that?


- religion is something obviously cultural(and that's the main reason I reject it, lack of objectivity !); see kids don't initially believe in god(there is a indoctrination)... I was wondering if the beginning age of religious indoctrination(6 years?) in kids was correlated with atheism or not? My idea is that the sooner/earlier you teach a kid about god(when bad understanding of the world), and the more the idea of god/ indoctrination will be established as a fundamental truth in their minds(so basically the idea of god becomes a reality more easily when younger...)... kids don't usually question authority(at-least those with not too elevated logical skills !). And that is actually how you give an idea the status of a reality.

-My other idea was that : school( history, maths,..Etc) acted the same way as the religious indoctrination.(who is systematic in certain parts of the world/ religious countries.)... It is a cultural indoctrination.... and that phenomenon explains why people are reluctant to change their ways( because their psyche is constructed on the schooling !). In other words, Atheist(because they didn't grew up in a religious family) are religious( they believe in what society says, just like back then--before science-- when every people believed in what society told them) in their own ways.. So basically the atheist vs religious war is none but a cultural war.

-Skepticism: good? not good? where is the limit?

-I'm always amazed by the people who know a lot of things here, good... but is the ultimate goal of an INTP to know a lot of things? Really? I don't think so personally... I think it's a waste of time to learn so many things.. learn few, but learn quality and learn well... seek truth. Truth of our nature is--I think so-- our main goal and that is why we are so valuable... we don't want praise, we don't want sex-or maybe incidentally --, we don't need your money, we don't want power, we don't even need a lot of knowledge, just the truth... we want the truth and nothing more. That said, I think that society has misled INTPs... We forgot what our natural jobs is: to break unnecessary rules, to bring out the truth and to make truth visible for every one.(atleast that's my goal !).
-there are cutural bias also with topics: gender roles in society(cultural? not cultural?)
-I read once in a philosophy magazine(by a woman philosopher): that women are indoctrinated to have kids, that having kids was cultural.. and that women who chose to not have kids-- although their biology allows them to do so-- were normal. Having kids is not a biological imperative she said, .... what do you think of her sayings?
(I personally strongly disagreed; reproduction is not cultural because it is a life's commonality, every animal reproduces, everybody in every culture reproduces... so that woman was biased toward her genre... check this out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_imperative )



Thanks.


It is a necessary evil to get people together, create a sense of common interest and motivate individuals within the group to cooperate.
Agree strongly... it's indeed a necessary evil. And what other necessary evil can you name lol? socialization for ex?l :p
Agree, and besides if you rid yourself of culture completely starting from birth, well you'd end up an uneducated retard with no clue about anything[...]objectivity.
I find this to be somehow truth... but I cannot agree very completely though. I'm skeptical by nature and tend to analyse information whether than absorbing it( man, the time you loose doing that... I wish I were NJ sometimes lol) or taking things at face value... So you mean being INTP is wrong? seeking to know only what is important-- the very essence of things and not the superfluous or the make up-- makes us stupid( it might explains a lot of things now lol :confused:)?



Absolutely. In order to go through the looking glass we need to expose ourselves as much as possible to other cultures in order to experience alternative thought systems.
True, but wouldn't it be dangerous for our intimate persona? our ego? It seems that a common trend among balanced humans is to love to know where one "stands"... So can all these different world views coexist in the same head without disturbance?

This can help us to have a more objective frame of reference. We should weave these ideas together to form a more holistic worldview.

Agree but how do we do this? It seems that human are not really able to cooperate fully(like other animals, they love to live in families, distinct groups,..etc)... nations exist because of the will for independence of people. People don't love to confuse geographical, cultural or societal barriers. That's human. That's animal. Ideology is good, but what about the human psyche limitations? It seems that majority of people cannot accept certain novelties...
( territorialism + group forming are biological imperative that goes against unity btw)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_imperative )
i won't answer since i don't like the idealization of objectivity. subject and object are mental constructs alike, they are mutually dependent and neither of them is superior
U maybe right.. I don't know.





C ya, ill be back !
 

Cherry Cola

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@Walk: Nah I don't mean that being an INTP or questioning things is wrong. I mean that you need input to even be able to question from the beginning. There were INTPs pre civilization, like all other tribals they believed in spirits and all that sort of stuff because it made sense to them from their limited data. Furthermore you have to consider just how long it took for civilization to reach it's current state. There are a lot of things that no individual could deal with singlehandedly which need to be realized before we can have our current understanding of the world.

We've probably also payed a price by deeply integrated misconceptions which we cannot spot. But hey what would be the alternative?
 

Brontosaurie

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nah i don't think all those tribals were believers. outcasts and idiots and schizophrenics have likely been around from the get-go and it's not as hard, not as much of a stretch, to imagine a godless world as surviving artifacts typically decreed by the stuck-up authorities of the day make it seem.

my 2 cents.

maybe "all other" was rhetoric and not literal :S anyway INTP ought to be the type most likely to eschew contemporary theory.
 
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True, but wouldn't it be dangerous for our intimate persona? our ego? It seems that a common trend among balanced humans is to love to know where one "stands"... So can all these different world views coexist in the same head without disturbance?

You know what I think this is true for some people and less for others. Personally it's something I enjoy. I love to break open society's assumptions and call a spade when I see one. But for some people, and I know a good number of them, this process is unsettling. Most people want to hold on to what they were raised with. Si/Fe dominants display this characteristic quite a bit in my experience.

Agree but how do we do this? It seems that human are not really able to cooperate fully(like other animals, they love to live in families, distinct groups,..etc)... nations exist because of the will for independence of people. People don't love to confuse geographical, cultural or societal barriers. That's human. That's animal. Ideology is good, but what about the human psyche limitations? It seems that majority of people cannot accept certain novelties...

In this case I was referring to the individual. And to rephrase what I said a bit, I meant weaving together ideas in such a way as to discard limited or disproved conceptual frameworks and retain improved conceptual frameworks by either adopting them or by way of creative amalgamation. For me this is the path to truth/objectivity.
 

Analyzer

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Culture is one of the if not the only thing that people share similarities with as a group. Everything else is pretty much an illusion such as being an American.
 

scorpiomover

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I can see the imprint of the culture of the country of almost every poster that I've ever come across. There's just such an incredible similarity between the format of posts by Americans that directly references American culture. There's a great similarity in the posts of Canadians. There's a lot of similarities in the format of British posts, that matches their culture. The scandinavians also show a huge similarity in the tone of their posts, which is mostly very unlike the tone of the posts by Americans, Canadians, and Brits. I even see French cultural values in the posts of French people. It's not a perfect rule, as there is still room for individuality and individual values. But it's amazing to see the similarities and how clearly they match the cultural influences of their country.

Is it possible to not be completely influenced by the local culture(consciously or unconsciously?)?
We can't be completely influenced. If we all did, then people of the same country would all make exactly the same choices.

or We are doomed to forever be biased toward our local culture?
Evolutionary theory dictates that the selective pressures that make us what we are, come from our environment, which includes the culture of our country.

Is the denial of local culture the best thing for objectivity?
Denial? In what way? Going against it? Not a bad idea. But a reaction is still a re-ACTION. It is based on the action, and so is subjective to the action. So a reaction against local culture, is to say that one has been influenced by the culture, and to the extent of the reaction.

Ignoring it? Not a bad idea. But you have to remember that science teaches us that you'll be influenced by the culture of your country, no matter what you do.

Pretending you aren't influenced? You're denying the truth. Might as well close your eyes and say there is no Sun.

However, I have read that scientific studies found that people who learn multiple languages, tend to be more intelligent, more tolerant, and have a much more sophisticated POV. Multiple languages result in one learning the cultures of those languages, and so learning multiple cultures. Also, speaking a language, using certain grammars and certain words, results in one learning to think somewhat like the natives. Speaking multiple cultures thus shows one how to think in different ways, and that in turn makes one more intelligent, and understanding that what sounds crazy in one way of thinking, often makes very good sense in another way of thinking.

Thus, the solution seems to be that one learns multiple languages and learns about multiple cultures, particularly that one visits multiple lands, learns to make friends with the people, and achieves true understanding of why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do.
 

Cherry Cola

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I can see the imprint of the culture of the country of almost every poster that I've ever come across. There's just such an incredible similarity between the format of posts by Americans that directly references American culture. There's a great similarity in the posts of Canadians. There's a lot of similarities in the format of British posts, that matches their culture. The scandinavians also show a huge similarity in the tone of their posts, which is mostly very unlike the tone of the posts by Americans, Canadians, and Brits. I even see French cultural values in the posts of French people. It's not a perfect rule, as there is still room for individuality and individual values. But it's amazing to see the similarities and how clearly they match the cultural influences of their country.

I'm not out to critique you here.. but if you can be arsed, do you think you could describe some of these similarities and differences? If but bluntly. It would be interesting.
 

WALKYRIA

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Be careful though.

Why should I? I'm perfectly aware that we are about to enter a crisis moment...
WHat were your conclusions about the article; I'm curious to know.

Thanx for the article, I have something great for you also along the lines of the OP.. but more recent... with more solid facts. It is by Peter Turchin(a possible INTP dude!) a researcher in evolutionary biology in connecticut with his paper" A structural demografic analysis of american history"..

I highly recommend this, U guys certainly heard about it... if you could give your insights about cliodynamics( history through Maths!):

http://cliodynamics.info/PDF/SDAAS_Sep17.pdf
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/cliodynamics-peter-turchin/all/
http://cliodynamics.info/

Empires rise and fall, populations and economies boom and bust, world religions spread or wither... What are the mechanisms underlying such dynamical processes in history? Are there 'laws of history'? We do not lack hypotheses to investigate - to take just one instance, more than two hundred explanations have been proposed for why the Roman Empire fell. But we still don't know which of these hypotheses are plausible, and which should be rejected. More importantly, there is no consensus on what general mechanisms explain the collapse of historical empires. What is needed is a systematic application of the scientific method to history: verbal theories should be translated into mathematical models, precise predictions derived, and then rigorously tested on empirical material. In short, history needs to become an analytical, predictive science (see Arise cliodynamics).

Cliodynamics (from Clio, the muse of history, and dynamics, the study of temporally varying processes) is the new transdisciplinary area of research at the intersection of historical macrosociology, economic history/cliometrics, mathematical modeling of long-term social processes, and the construction and analysis of historical databases. Mathematical approaches – modeling historical processes with differential equations or agent-based simulations; sophisticated statistical approaches to data analysis – are a key ingredient in the cliodynamic research program (Why do we need mathematical history?). But ultimately the aim is to discover general principles that explain the functioning and dynamics of actual historical societies.

It turns out that such imperial (and, sometimes, civilizational) collapses generally occured during the waves of political instability that periodically affected agrarian societies. The empirical part surveyslong-term oscillations in demographic, economic, social, and political structures in England, France, and Russia from medieval to early modern periods, and in the Roman Republic and Empire. While the theory does very well for past agrarian societies, the inevitable question arises, what about our times? Are we about to experience another age of political instability and social disintegration? To answer this question, I am working on a project examining the historical dynamics of the American Republic, from its inception (c.1780) to the present. First draft has been posted in August 2013 (see below).

...that large-scale states and empires are a relative rarity in the historical record. The most difficult question, really, is not why they collapse, but how they were possible in the first place. What were the social forces that held together huge empires, encompassing tens of millions of people spread over millions of squared kilometers of territory? I bring a variety of approaches to bear on this question: insights from the multilevel selection theory, agent-based models (in collaboration with Sergey Gavrilets), and systematic empirical surveys of global patterns of "imperiogenesis". Understanding the nature and evolution of large-scale cooperation has also practical implications for such issues as failed states and nation building..
 

Vrecknidj

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We are primates and mammals. We are part of a long line of beings, all of whom had a large measure of their success, as living beings, traced into their genes and brains and biochemistry, and developed along avenues of groups.

Lactators had something others did not -- necessary, long-term bonds that fostered all kinds of feedback loops between mothers and infants. The endocrinological consequences have been profound.

One of the results is us, with our ability articulate empathy, with our ability to cooperate and coordinate in large numbers. Culture is one of the many consequences of the particulars of our biology (phenotypically and genotypically).

We have, of course, turned it into so much more.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Why should I? I'm perfectly aware that we are about to enter a crisis moment...
WHat were your conclusions about the article; I'm curious to know.
Careful in the sense, that although certain ideas hold merit,
they are interwoven with Spengler's political views,
which poses a problem, because, if you are not aware of that, these political views might soothe into your mind without realizing it.
Careful also in the sense, that, for instance, Huntington developed his fatalistic and imperialistic ideology of a "Clash of Civilizations" out of this.
I have come to my own conclusions regarding the material,
but i don't want to advocate it here, because this is a public place and i don't want anybody with the wrong mindset to take up on it.

Thanx for the article, I have something great for you also along the lines of the OP.. but more recent... with more solid facts. It is by Peter Turchin(a possible INTP dude!) a researcher in evolutionary biology in connecticut with his paper" A structural demografic analysis of american history"..

I highly recommend this, U guys certainly heard about it... if you could give your insights about cliodynamics( history through Maths!):

http://cliodynamics.info/PDF/SDAAS_Sep17.pdf
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/cliodynamics-peter-turchin/all/
http://cliodynamics.info/

What if we discovered a mathematical formula which would be able to determine the fate of a civilization?
Would there be no ethical implications?
 

WALKYRIA

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but i don't want to advocate it here, because this is a public place and i don't want anybody with the wrong mindset to take up on it.

Are you kiddin me... so you found the truth/ a version of it... And you don't even want to share it. Oh, c'mon... this forum is semi-public.
Don't know, it seems that the decline of an empire follows certain steps(according to the dude, we are going to enter step 1 before decline !)...and that it can be modeled and predictable. I find it great...being able to predict the evolution of economy/society... But I still need time to read all his work.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Are you kiddin me... so you found the truth/ a version of it... And you don't even want to share it. Oh, c'mon... this forum is semi-public.
Don't know, it seems that the decline of an empire follows certain steps(according to the dude, we are going to enter step 1 before decline !)...and that it can be modeled and predictable. I find it great...being able to predict the evolution of economy/society... But I still need time to read all his work.
What i restate is that you should not expect one theory to be right. If you are interested in approaching a reliable model try to browse through a multitude of past attempts. Something might appeal to you, that usually helps things get biased.
If we are in the field of socio-cultural evolution and interaction there are loads of content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocultural_evolution#Modern_theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism
Wikipedia is crude, however i don't want to suggest any books as they can be selected when you get an idea of what you are searching for.
Really familiarizing with basic ideas makes you realize how much of them influenced next-gen researchers.
 

Etheri

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Society doesn't determine what you do, but I'm convinced it'll always have some kind of influence.

For some, this is to do as society tells them to, for others it causes them to break away. Either way, I think a certain extent of influence is undeniable.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Are you kiddin me... so you found the truth/ a version of it... And you don't even want to share it. Oh, c'mon... this forum is semi-public.
Don't know, it seems that the decline of an empire follows certain steps(according to the dude, we are going to enter step 1 before decline !)...and that it can be modeled and predictable. I find it great...being able to predict the evolution of economy/society... But I still need time to read all his work.
I found an intriguing concept, which allows me to formulate my own ideas.
But, as Blarraun has pointed out, there is a lot to explore before you can even attempt at making predictions.
Spengler formulates his ideas of what the forces underlying civilizations, cultural identity, progress and decline etc. may be.
Think of it as a Jungian approach.
There is a lot of insight to be gained there.
You can read up on the topic of cyclic history and related authors here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_history#Cyclical_and_linear_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cycle_theory

Wikipedia is a good start, but obviously you would have to get the source material in order to fully understand.
 

scorpiomover

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I'm not out to critique you here.. but if you can be arsed, do you think you could describe some of these similarities and differences? If but bluntly. It would be interesting.
Americans tend to be extremely critical of anyone and anything that doesn't conform to their personal values. American defamation law allows Americans to say the most vitriolic things, so long as they can't be proved or disproved easily. Americans tend to believe that they can say anything they want to anyone they want, and tend to think they should make everyone else like them.

Talking about Brits on INTJf, not me: British people tend to be a lot less vociferous. British defamation law requires that Brits who say anything even slightly offensive that can't be proved or disproved easily, must be punished to the full extent of the law. British culture is also very focussed on being polite. If one is to make light of a matter, then one has to at least do so with intelligence.

American atheists also have an odd habit of trying to lampoon theists in styles that are very reminiscent of Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert's habit of lampooning the Religious Right on TV. They don't have professional writers spending days coming up with those witticisms, and they don't have producers, directors, and a whole crew hunting down religious people who will agree to follow a script that will make them look very stupid, in return for network exposure and a $5,000 payout.

French history and values are very much patriotically anti-religious, as if one who does not stamp out religion, would cause the French monarchy to return. French atheists tend to say that they will do things, that amounts to going out of their way to an extreme, in order to not be supporting any religion in any way. They're so in-your-face about arguing that religious people are committing worse crimes than Hitler and the whole of the SS put together, as if everyone must do what they say, how they say, when they say, or go under the Guillotine, that it's very reminiscent of how the French demand that everyone else must speak their language in France, but refuse to show the same courtesy when they go to other countries.

It's not a hard and fast rule. It's just a trend that I've noticed, that I'm beginning to think has a lot of validity.
 

HsinHsin

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However, I have read that scientific studies found that people who learn multiple languages, tend to be more intelligent, more tolerant, and have a much more sophisticated POV. Multiple languages result in one learning the cultures of those languages, and so learning multiple cultures. Also, speaking a language, using certain grammars and certain words, results in one learning to think somewhat like the natives. Speaking multiple cultures thus shows one how to think in different ways, and that in turn makes one more intelligent, and understanding that what sounds crazy in one way of thinking, often makes very good sense in another way of thinking.

Thus, the solution seems to be that one learns multiple languages and learns about multiple cultures, particularly that one visits multiple lands, learns to make friends with the people, and achieves true understanding of why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do.
How many language have you learned?
 

scorpiomover

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HsinHsin

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Sadly, only 4.
I am learning my 3rd foreign language and I don't feel myself becoming more intelligent, but I am not good at the languages anyway. Do you feel you have become more intelligent by learning more languages?
 
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Is it possible to not be completely influenced by the local culture(consciously or unconsciously?)? or We are doomed to forever be biased toward our local culture?
Is the denial of local culture the best thing for objectivity?

No. Depends on the degree of zombiehood. Intelligence + morality + idealism is the best thing.
 

scorpiomover

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I am learning my 3rd foreign language and I don't feel myself becoming more intelligent, but I am not good at the languages anyway. Do you feel you have become more intelligent by learning more languages?
Not magically so. But I am aware that when I read a text or hear someone speak, my brain now automatically cross-matches with how it might be read in the different languages that I know. This has a huge significance to me, because different peoples have a completely different way of thinking about the same things, which helps me cross the cultural divides that exist between people of different lands, and helps me understand how they lead to unnecessary conflicts.

I became aware of this, because of situations like the following:

I was eating lunch with my cousin's family, who are Israelis, born and bred. In my best Hebrew, I asked for the salt in the same way that I would do in English: "Can you pass me the salt, please?" They all laughed, and told me that I should say "Pass me the salt." I was quite shocked. My parents used to take us to eat lunch with their friends in England. Sometimes, the husband would ask for the salt, and the wife would refuse, reminding him that he had high blood pressure, and the doctor had told him to lay off the salt. Sometimes, the husband would get quite irate, and demand the salt. The wife would refuse, and a huge argument would ensue, often upsetting the entire meal. This sort of arguments is quite common in all sorts of situations in the UK. So it made perfect sense to me that one should always only ever ask for the salt, and only in the most polite way, to avoid such conflicts. But my Israeli cousins were quite placid about the whole thing. It seemed to me that they weren't bothered if someone demanded something, and equally weren't bothered too much if they demanded something and were refused. I knew that Israelis had a reputation amongst the English for being extremely rude. I considered that maybe Israelis were just more upfront, but less prone to consider an argument as a real conflict. Later on, I came to see Israelis argue in all sorts of situations, but that no-one took it seriously, not even the people who were arguing.

This led me to understand that for Israelis, a disagreement, or even a conflict, didn't mean someone was your enemy, and didn't have to lead to violence. But in England, arguing with someone quite strongly, often did lead to violence. Obviously, there was a huge cultural gap between how English-speakers and Hebrew-speakers interpreted the same situations.

Then I reflected on what I knew of British history, which had historically been extremely violent, and where disobeying or showing insolence to a person in authority could often mean imprisonment or death, for the person, and for his family, and his whole village. But from what I knew of Jewish people, things almost never escalated to such extremes.

When I reflected on the Old Testament's exhortations, I began to realise that it would read entirely differently to the people of the time, who spoke Hebrew natively, and to native English speakers who read the OT and English translations of the OT. To the Hebrew speakers to whom Moses spoke, saying that homosexuality required death, or that one had to kill every last one of a certain people, was just like demanding the salt. It was just the Hebrew style, designed to show that there was something important being said, but not that you'd necessarily act on it, and so probably only meant to kill those people where it made sense to do so.

But to the English speakers, making a demand of execution was itself an inviolable order that had to be carried out, and was not to be questioned in any way, or oneself would suffer the same fate, and so carried no exceptions whatsoever. So to the English speakers, those people who were said to require execution, had to be executed, even if it made no sense whatsoever.

Consequently, to English speakers, the Bible was to be followed unquestioningly, without reason, or if one put reason first, then the Bible read like a very evil and irrational set of instructions and fanciful stories.

But to Hebrew-speakers, the Bible read like a set of instructions and stories that only illustrated general principles of reason that one would only act on, when it made complete sense to do so, and thus the Bible was a good source of reason and sense.

Thus, it made great sense to me, why the people of the Old Testament followed the Bible, while most Europeans only did what they were told, or discarded it completely.

It also prepared me for when I read a Star Wars story about what happens after the Return of the Jedi. In the story, a Sith general would collect art of the people he was attempting to conquer, in order to understand their mindset, so that he could devise strategies that were bound to work to conquer them, which he would be highly successful in. I thought that was also in line with what I'd noticed earlier, and resolved that what I knew of a people's art, could tell me much about the people's mindset.
 

Seed-Wad

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A small quote that reminds me of this topic:

"And above all, it is your civilization, it is you. However much you hate it or laugh at it, you will never be happy away from it for any length of time. The suet puddings and the red pillarboxes have entered into your soul.
Good or evil, it is yours, you belong to it, and this side of the grave you will never get away from the marks that it has given you."
- George Orwell, The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius

Also, a saying I read on imgur (I think): "It is your parents (or, more broadly, the culture's~) fault how you are now, it is your own fault if you stay that way"


Because at the moment you realize you have the freedom of choice, any choice is your own responsibility. Yet, if you assume that 'counter-culture' is just an element of the total culture, then you can never escape the culture around you. After all, all processes are reactive processes and thus part of the total picture.

(This entire post is a paraphrasing of~ / deliberation on Etheri's contribution)
 
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