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CS Geeks

Architect

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Don Knuth said:
To continue this speculation, I have to explain about being a geek. Fred Gruenberger told me long ago that about 2% of all college students, in his experience, really resonated with computers in the way that he and I did. That number stuck in my mind, and over the years I was repeatedly able to confirm his empirical observations. For instance, I learned in 1977 that the University of Illinois had 11,000 grad students, of whom 220 were CS majors!

Thus I came to believe that a small percentage of the world's population has somehow acquired a peculiar way of thinking, which I happen to share, and that such people happened to discover each other's existence after computer science had acquired its name.

For simplicity, let me say that people like me are "geeks," and that geeks comprise about 2% of the world's population. I know of no explanation for the rapid rise of academic computer science departments—which went from zero to one at virtually every college and university between 1965 and 1975—except that they provided a long-needed home where geeks could work together. Similarly, I know of no good explanation for the failure of many unsuccessful software projects that I've witnessed over the years, except for the hypothesis that they were not entrusted to geeks.

It's noted INTP's generally like computers, and indeed they frequently show up in the field. Don Knuth estimates that 2% of all college students really resonate with computers. Is being a geek (in the Knuth sense) a separate trait from being an INTP, related to it or something else?
 

SpaceYeti

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I'm sure it's related, but I have buddies in computer fields (not necessarily CS, but networking or system management) whom are not INTPs. Granted, they're INTJs, but that's still not INTPs. Further, how are we defining CS? Is it strictly CS as per the degree, or are we counting networking and whatever? Where, exactly, is our line?
 

Architect

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Yes agree. I work with an (highly annoying) ISTJ who is part of the 2%, as am I. In other fields, while I became a successful and top musician, it never came as easy to me as some I knew. In particular to make the final leap you did seem to need to be an ISXX type. I questioned myself too much which undermined my confidence, and to play at that level your comfort and confidence has to be absolute. The IS types (and ES) have that in spades.

Likewise in physics, while I went from flunking math to a top grad program in a few years, I never really had enough time (and wasn't born with it) to develop the fine mathematical grasp that some of my fellow students have.

But computers? It just comes real natural like.
 

Valentas

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I am already good at a couple of things, i.e. playing music and computers but none of them feel natural. I guess my path to find what really sticks will be of importance. I came to conclusion having a couple of truly gifted people in my friend circle who basically won world coding competition recently that they are just different and just get IT.
 

Neckbeard

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I started to learn python, but got distracted.

I would say I have above average computer knowledge, but that's useless anyway in the age of google.
 

Anktark

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But computers? It just comes real natural like.

This. I enjoy things one can do with math and I appreciate it's help. Physics and chemistry are interesting and can be very exciting. I can enjoy and appreciate most other sciences and arts, but they take some willful effort on my part. CS feels intuitive and just... right. Sure it takes effort and sometimes gets frustrating, but... I suppose it's a compatible perspective to my overall view of the world.

I don't think most INTPs are CS geeks, but I think INTPs more prone to becoming CS geeks, there is a lot of correlation.

I would say I have above average computer knowledge, but that's useless anyway in the age of google.

I disagree. Memorizing specifics is a lot less useful with the advent of good search engines, but the broad knowledge itself means you are aware and can produce questions you would be totally oblivious to otherwise. It's the vast difference between "I need to look this up" and "I can ask such a question?".
 

Architect

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I would say I have above average computer knowledge, but that's useless anyway in the age of google.

If you think above average computer knowledge is useless in the 'age of Google', then you probably don't have above average computer knowledge.

We're hiring at my workplace and I'm perhaps noticing a trend, which is that the latest crop can't do jack shit. Plenty of candidates that have great records (good grades from good schools, projects etc) but who fall apart when you try to find out what they know or can actually do. Take an EE intern, he seemed barely able to handle ohms law. Embarrassing, then he seemed surprised when it didn't turn into a permanent offer.

In the CS types, we often see ones that apparently 'code by searching', and never learn how to really think or problem solve, which is what we're really doing.
 

Anktark

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In the CS types, we often see ones that apparently 'code by searching', and never learn how to really think or problem solve, which is what we're really doing.

Might be a bit off topic, but I am confused what you mean by "code by searching". Do they look up specific algorithms and/or their edge cases? Less often used libraries? I have a hard time imagining how one could write code just by searching.
 

scorpiomover

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Yes agree. I work with an (highly annoying) ISTJ who is part of the 2%, as am I. In other fields, while I became a successful and top musician, it never came as easy to me as some I knew. In particular to make the final leap you did seem to need to be an ISXX type. I questioned myself too much which undermined my confidence, and to play at that level your comfort and confidence has to be absolute. The IS types (and ES) have that in spades.

Likewise in physics, while I went from flunking math to a top grad program in a few years, I never really had enough time (and wasn't born with it) to develop the fine mathematical grasp that some of my fellow students have.

But computers? It just comes real natural like.
That's more of an example of being an intuitive.

When an intuitive gains an intuitive understanding of a topic, he/she takes to it like a duck takes to water.


However, until an intuitive gains an intuitive understanding of a topic, he/she is like a fish out of water. Gasping for some understanding, but wherever he/she looks, very little seems to make sense, and most of it is very, very hard work.
 

scorpiomover

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If you think above average computer knowledge is useless in the 'age of Google', then you probably don't have above average computer knowledge.

We're hiring at my workplace and I'm perhaps noticing a trend, which is that the latest crop can't do jack shit. Plenty of candidates that have great records (good grades from good schools, projects etc) but who fall apart when you try to find out what they know or can actually do. Take an EE intern, he seemed barely able to handle ohms law. Embarrassing, then he seemed surprised when it didn't turn into a permanent offer.

In the CS types, we often see ones that apparently 'code by searching', and never learn how to really think or problem solve, which is what we're really doing.
More of a trend. Back in the 50s and the 60s, there was only machine code. Only top mathematicians and others with an equal command of reasoning could figure out how to code. Then in the 70s and then the 80s, we started seeing compilers, code editors and other programming tools. These tools were designed to make programming easier, which also meant that more people (with lesser abilities) could also program. As the tools got better, programming got easier and easier. So more and more people with less and less abilities could program. With the rise of the popularity of the internet, from 95 onwards, more and more programming articles telling people how to program, became more and more available on the net. These days, I know people who are getting into programming, who can't handle basic arithmetic. That's how much easier programming has become.

During the same period, manufacturing moved to the Far East. So all the middle-class interesting jobs and high-paying jobs in manufacturing went as well. These days, with the sinking of the financial sector, there's very few career opportunities in the same scope. Programming is one of them. So millions of people who, in a previous era, would have been manufacturing executives, have gone into IT.

In addition, as IT has become more and more popular, every business wants their own customised IT system. To write such a system, they need a programmer. In the past, the client would speak to a project manager, and the project manager would translate for the programmer. But, that costs 2 people, and people aren't as flush, what with manufacturing moving to the Far East. So, people try to employ the programmer directly. Other people have got into IT trying to run programmers themselves, even though they don't have the training and the skills. They pass on the client's instructions, without translation, and pass the programmer's issues directly to the client, without any translation. So these days, programmers are having to interact with the client directly, or interact with their PM as if they were interacting with the client directly. Clients these days don't see any need to learn how to communicate with the programmer. So programmers have needed more and more people skills as the years have gone by. So this puts the more technical people at a great disadvantage, and the more people-savvy programmers at a greater advantage, which puts an evolutionary pressure on those who prioritise developing technical skills over people skills to find another profession or to do less well, and so there's less and less of them in the IT market.

As a result, there's lots more going into IT, and the technical and problem-solving aspects of the job has got much, much easier, while there is much more demand for people-skills and other soft skills. So the technical and problem-solving quality of the average programmer has dropped with each passing year.
 
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