Could I be an INTJ?

Emerald · Dec 20, 2016

I'm relatively new to the MBTI types and the only one I really know a lot about is INTP because that's what my result was on most tests. However, knowing what it means to be judging and what it means to be perceiving, I'm having doubts on which one I am. Maybe I'm in the middle, I dunno. So, I'm gonna give 'evidence' that makes me think I could be either one.

Perceiving: I usually don't have a schedule and am totally fine with last minute plans and the reason I plan things ahead is to make sure my parents don't plan some family outing on that day and drag me away to somewhere.

Judging: I like things to be predictable (I don't know if it's the same as having plans/schedules, hence my confusion). I get a little stressed when my friends call/text me saying they want to meet up in an hour or two. I freak out and freeze when something unexpected happens (mostly when ppl do/say something unexpected, so could be because of my introversion). I have a to-do list to help me keep track of assignments, although this is the first year I had one and it's not very detailed.

Another thing is that INTJs are seen as all about being smart/nerdy/intelligent while INTPs, while seen as intelligent, they are more of the philosophical, thinking deep thoughts kind of intelligent. I am obsessed with keeping my grades up and elementary through high school I maybe had one B as a final grade for a class. I like being seen as one of the smartest people in the room whether it be math, science, english or any other subject.

If any of you more experienced/knowledgeable people could help me with my mini-identity crisis I would highly appreciate it

Jane · Dec 20, 2016

Emerald said:
I'm relatively new to the MBTI types and the only one I really know a lot about is INTP because that's what my result was on most tests. However, knowing what it means to be judging and what it means to be perceiving, I'm having doubts on which one I am. Maybe I'm in the middle, I dunno. So, I'm gonna give 'evidence' that makes me think I could be either one.
Perceiving: I usually don't have a schedule and am totally fine with last minute plans and the reason I plan things ahead is to make sure my parents don't plan some family outing on that day and drag me away to somewhere.
Judging: I like things to be predictable (I don't know if it's the same as having plans/schedules, hence my confusion). I get a little stressed when my friends call/text me saying they want to meet up in an hour or two. I freak out and freeze when something unexpected happens (mostly when ppl do/say something unexpected, so could be because of my introversion). I have a to-do list to help me keep track of assignments, although this is the first year I had one and it's not very detailed.
Another thing is that INTJs are seen as all about being smart/nerdy/intelligent while INTPs, while seen as intelligent, they are more of the philosophical, thinking deep thoughts kind of intelligent. I am obsessed with keeping my grades up and elementary through high school I maybe had one B as a final grade for a class. I like being seen as one of the smartest people in the room whether it be math, science, english or any other subject.
If any of you more experienced/knowledgeable people could help me with my mini-identity crisis I would highly appreciate it

"Percieving and Judging" isn't the only difference between the two types. I would recommend you to look at the cognitive functions to determine your type because INTPs and INTJs are really different

INTP:
Ti
Ne
Si
Fe

INTJ:
Ni
Te
Fi
Se

I'm not good at explaining but you could just google "cognitive functions" to get an explaination and to understand it

Edit:
Here are the functions explained:
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/

And here an overview of the types and their functions:

Rixus · Dec 20, 2016

Different people within a type have a stronger preference to each attribute than others. Everyone is different, otherwise this forum would be very interesting.

Yeah, sometimes I plan things. Mostly the plan is pretty sketchy in the hopes that there'll be an interesting turn of events (which often three is). I only plan what is necessary to make it work. The rest, I'd rather be surprised about. With assignments I could make out an amazing plan in my head and visualise it perfectly. But the reality was more like, oh yeah that amazing 40 hour assignment I was gonna do is due on Monday. I'd better started on it (doesn't sleep for 2 days and somehow does a reasonable job). Or sometimes I'd put in the effort and ace it. The amount I can be bothered is highly unpredictable.

INTPs do share a lot of qualities with INTJs and can usually more or less understand each other. Plus, it's not exact science. As I said, people have preferences in different strengths.

Hopefully, an INTJ will be along soon to better answer.

Columbo · Dec 20, 2016

there are some excellent youtube videos which explain the difference quite well.

essentially to me:
intps think introvertedly and build systems that make sense internally in pursuit of nothing but internal satisfaction in realizing an achievement of understanding some concept or idea and organizing it appropriately within said intellectual framework.
intjs think externally to themselves and build systems that they can implement in the real world in pursuit of some external goal.

Artsu Tharaz · Dec 20, 2016

I think it's SJs especially that like schedules. Freaking out at the unexpected does seem J-ish as well as introverted. Keeping up grades and wanting to be one of the smartest in the room sounds J.

In my opinion, the difference between INTP and INTJ really is more about the P vs J than about the 8 functions (e.g. Ti vs Ni), so just go by which preference seems strongest and how you score in tests, imo.

I type myself as INFJ, and from our brief interaction I thought we thought in a similar way, so INTJ makes more sense to me than INTP for you.

PmjPmj · Dec 20, 2016

Your lack of paragraphs disturbs me.

I may post more when I'm at a computer.

Sinny91 · Dec 20, 2016

He has used paragraphs, he just hasn't separated them.

I'd say INTP.

Rixus · Dec 20, 2016

I separate when I remember too. I think. Maybe.

I thought the sentences too brain dumpy for an INTJ - but my experience is limited.

reckful · Dec 20, 2016

For a lot of input from me on J/P, see this post.

Emerald · Dec 20, 2016

PmjPmj said:
Your lack of paragraphs disturbs me.

I may post more when I'm at a computer.

I beg your pardon.

Fixed it.

Emerald · Dec 21, 2016

After reading the articles on INTP and INTJ personality types on personalityjunkie.com, I find myself even more confused. There are things that I strongly agree with in both articles, but they both also contain descriptors that are in no way applicable to me.

reckful · Dec 21, 2016

Emerald said:
After reading the articles on INTP and INTJ personality types on personalityjunkie.com, I find myself even more confused. There are things that I strongly agree with in both articles, but they both also contain descriptors that are in no way applicable to me.

It's pretty common, in my experience, for INFJs to mistype as INTJs (including on the official MBTI) and later conclude that they're actually INFJ. And by contrast, the opposite — INTJs mistyping as INFJs and later concluding they're actually INTJ — almost never happens.

And mistyped INFJs often resist the idea that they could be "feelers" because of a mistaken idea of what an F preference involves — and especially how an F preference tends to manifest in the context of an INFJ.

And I'm not saying that you've given me any strong reason to suspect that you're an INFJ, but if both INTJ and INTP profiles tend to sound significantly off to you, and especially if they seem off in ways that have to do (in part at least) with how you relate to other people, and just in case you'd be interested in a lot of T/F input from me, you can find it in this Typology Central post and the posts it links to.

(And just for the record, that post is part of a 10-post series that includes separate sections on each of the four MBTI dimensions, a link to roundups of online profiles for each of the 16 types, a brief intro to the Big Five *neuroticism* dimension, and a contrarian discussion of that perennial puzzler, "can I haz INTx?")

As a final note, you said, "I like being seen as one of the smartest people in the room whether it be math, science, english or any other subject" — and that's something an INTJ would be more likely to say than an INTP, but also something an INFJ would be more likely to say than an INTJ. INFJs love to get the highest grade on a test, INTPs are probably the N type that's the most contemptuous of grades, and INTJs are somewhere in between, but I'd say closer to INTPs. INFJs are the most status-conscious of the four IN types.

Emerald · Dec 21, 2016

reckful said:
It's pretty common, in my experience, for INFJs to mistype as INTJs (including on the official MBTI) and later conclude that they're actually INFJ. And by contrast, the opposite — INTJs mistyping as INFJs and later concluding they're actually INTJ — almost never happens.

And mistyped INFJs often resist the idea that they could be "feelers" because of a mistaken idea of what an F preference involves — and especially how an F preference tends to manifest in the context of an INFJ.

And I'm not saying that you've given me any strong reason to suspect that you're an INFJ, but if both INTJ and INTP profiles tend to sound significantly off to you, and especially if they seem off in ways that have to do (in part at least) with how you relate to other people, and just in case you'd be interested in a lot of T/F input from me, you can find it in this Typology Central post and the posts it links to.

(And just for the record, that post is part of a 10-post series that includes separate sections on each of the four MBTI dimensions, a link to roundups of online profiles for each of the 16 types, a brief intro to the Big Five *neuroticism* dimension, and a contrarian discussion of that perennial puzzler, "can I haz INTx?")

As a final note, you said, "I like being seen as one of the smartest people in the room whether it be math, science, english or any other subject" — and that's something an INTJ would be more likely to say than an INTP, but also something an INFJ would be more likely to say than an INTJ. INFJs love to get the highest grade on a test, INTPs are probably the N type that's the most contemptuous of grades, and INTJs are somewhere in between, but I'd say closer to INTPs. INFJs are the most status-conscious of the four IN types.

I looked into INFJ and INFP, but after reading their descriptions and personality analysis (on other websites), they seem like such altruistic softies. I tried to remain open-minded, and I admit that I have considered the possibility of me being an F rather than P, but it doesn't seem possible. I'm too lazy and apathetic to be an INFJ. I have moral values, but I rarely do anything about them.

I read your post on T/F and, looking at your chart, there are several words that could describe me. For example, loyal. However, I think I'm dedicated to people the same way I'm dedicated to projects or ideas, as soon as I lose interest or they lose their usefulness, I tend to get rid of them. TBH, I'm considering 'breaking up' with one of my friends, but I know it's gonna break her heart and her family is going through some really hard times, so I'm putting it off for now. Still referencing the chart, I'm not exactly gentle or trusting. It takes me months, even years to open up even a little bit to people. There are individuals who I've known for 5-6 years, see them 2-3 times every week and I still can't have a conversation with them.

I care about keeping balance in a situation where I'm involved with strangers or acquantainces, but only because if I tried to say an unpleasant truth, they would not understand my logic or would refuse to accept the facts. It is less tiring to stay quiet and not get into arguments. Following social norms is more about keeping my reputation as a quiet cinnamon roll than making friends or getting on people's good side.

reckful · Dec 21, 2016

Emerald said:
I looked into INFJ and INFP, but after reading their descriptions and personality analysis (on other websites), they seem like such altruistic softies. I tried to remain open-minded, and I admit that I have considered the possibility of me being an F rather than P, but it doesn't seem possible. I'm too lazy and apathetic to be an INFJ. I have moral values, but I rarely do anything about them.

I read your post on T/F and, looking at your chart, there are several words that could describe me. For example, loyal. However, I think I'm dedicated to people the same way I'm dedicated to projects or ideas, as soon as I lose interest or they lose their usefulness, I tend to get rid of them. TBH, I'm considering 'breaking up' with one of my friends, but I know it's gonna break her heart and her family is going through some really hard times, so I'm putting it off for now. Still referencing the chart, I'm not exactly gentle or trusting. It takes me months, even years to open up even a little bit to people. There are individuals who I've known for 5-6 years, see them 2-3 times every week and I still can't have a conversation with them.

I care about keeping balance in a situation where I'm involved with strangers or acquantainces, but only because if I tried to say an unpleasant truth, they would not understand my logic or would refuse to accept the facts. It is less tiring to stay quiet and not get into arguments. Following social norms is more about keeping my reputation as a quiet cinnamon roll than making friends or getting on people's good side.

That chart is just the official MBTI bullet-point summaries of the five "Step II" T/F facets. My take is in the separate two-post "T/F intro" that that post links to.

And in any case, I don't think there's any question that INFJs are less F in some very significant ways than a typical SF or EF. And I'd say there's nothing in your latest post that sounds significantly inconsistent with INFJ to me.

But again, I'm not saying I have anything like a substantial F lean for you. ("Cinammon roll" has more of an INFJ vibe to it, tho.)

I'm not a personalityjunkie fan, but I'd be curious to hear what "descriptors" in those INTJ and INTP descriptions you thought "are in no way applicable to me."

Emerald · Dec 21, 2016

reckful said:
That chart is just the official MBTI bullet-point summaries of the five "Step II" T/F facets. My take is in the separate two-post "T/F intro" that that post links to.

And in any case, I don't think there's any question that INFJs are less F in some very significant ways than a typical SF or EF. And I'd say there's nothing in your latest post that sounds significantly inconsistent with INFJ to me.

But again, I'm not saying I have anything like a substantial F lean for you. ("Cinammon roll" has more of an INFJ vibe to it, tho.)

I'm not a personalityjunkie fan, but I'd be curious to hear what "descriptors" in those INTJ and INTP descriptions you thought "are in no way applicable to me."

This is gonna be a long post

I'll start with INTJ:
When talking about the auxiliary Te, there's a lot on how INTJs have clear plans, nothing ambiguous, they are perfectionists, etc. The part about giving rational form to whatever their intuition conjured up would also be incorrect for me. A lot of what is said about intuition and the dominant function is a bit confusing for me, so I can't say if I agree with it or not. The part where it says that INTJs can't stand small talk or 'rubbing elbows' is very true for me, I usually can't get past 'how are you'.

INTP:
The part about inner self-control and discipline does not apply to me. I am usually very lazy unless something really captures me, currently it's playing piano. It's challenging and interesting enough for me to keep going. The part about patterns is correct though, I look for patterns even in something artistic like music pieces that I play. The part about Fe also didn't strike a chord with me. It states that INTPs are more concerned with keeping harmony than helping others.

I found that personalityjunkie didn't match some other resources I've read, but so far I have not made an opinion on any websites/articles as far as their accuracy goes. What would you consider the best resource for learning about the types?

I would not be entirely surprised if I am an F. My personal bias and fears might be working against me when I consider the possibility, cause it does antagonize me a bit. I think I would prefer being an INTP (which I probably am) or coming to the conclusion that I'm in the middle between P and J. I could be second guessing myself too much as I often do.

PmjPmj · Dec 21, 2016

reckful said:
And by contrast, the opposite — INTJs mistyping as INFJs and later concluding they're actually INTJ — almost never happens.

It clearly does happen, though. You're currently reading the words of one such individual.

Y'see, there's a lot of conjecture here. I'm not saying that your information is bad, but I think you could be a little more discerning in your efforts to elucidate this theory. You often speak in concrete terms and fail to highlight the many subtleties and grey areas which permeate the theory. At least in the bits of your work I have read - apologies if you actually do

Now, it's obvious that you have done your research - you're probably a great deal more knowledgeable than myself in some areas... but have you spent any time within the professional community? If you have, you'll know that the very best practitioners out there are huge proponents of type being far more fluid than it is oft portrayed. You will also be aware that there are myriad ways in which types in and of themselves can and do (frequently) vary. It'd be entirely possible to stand 100 INTJs in a room with one another and have only a handful find common ground.

Take me as a point of reference. It took two exceptional practitioners to convince me that I use Te, not Fe. Why? Simple - I have been brought up in an extremely Fe-oriented family; my Te had been suppressed pretty much all my life. The end result was a very faulty perception of self and thus an individual who was (past tense) a far cry away from the often predicated idea that INTJs are cocksure... although I apparently come across that way regardless, so whatever. Basically, I didn't know my arse from my elbow. If you read the many (bullshit) descriptions out there, you'll note that this is allegedly not a trait found within INTJs - yet here I stand.

There's also the strength of functions, too. Without a doubt, 'dominant is king'. All other functions are subservient to a large degree, and like fuck we have a neat and orderly function stack. Of course, some individuals do develop their lesser functions well. This alone can bring about entirely different flavours of the very same type. One INTJ may have Ni the size of the moon and look like a bit of an idealistic daydreamer who doesn't often get much done, yet the INTJ next to him may have, because of environmental circumstances, well developed Te which makes him look so pragmatic he's perceived as a machine.

However, dominant is always king - so concentrate on finding that rather than attempting to fit into a type. Beyond the dominant, everything is a bit of a crap shoot. Moreso as we grow older and (hopefully) continue to develop.

OP (Emerald, right?) from one person who lost his mind during self-exploration to another who seems to be going that way: you can by and large disregard most of the type descriptions out there. They're most often created by bullshit artists who have no idea what the fuck they are on about. Even the decent ones tend to be massively over-generalised.

In a nutshell, we're all radically different from one another, so cease and desist immediately with the whole 'Imma squeeze myself into this pigeon hole' act. It won't work - you'll only drive yourself to distraction and eventually go stark raving mad in your repeated attempts.

Also, it just isn't possible to type someone via a few words on a forum. It really isn't. If someone is telling you that they can type you on an internet forum, run a mile in the opposite direction. It really isn't that simple. Far, far from it.

After moving in the professional community for a while (and speaking to quite a few of the practitioners including Linda Berens and Dario Nardi - yeah, get me all dropping names and shit) it became blindingly apparent that:

- Type is vastly more nuanced than the many resources found on the internet would have you believe

- The internet is full of people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about (Rekful - this isn't aimed at yourself)

- It's better to just seek out a pro to tell you where it's at, because holy shit will it save you a lot of time and effort >_>

That being said, Greyman and Auburn here absolutely nailed me via video. In spite of thinking I was an INFJ at the time, my Te apparently shone through to the extent that they both assumed me ENTJ. So, not 100% accurate but well within the ballpark.

I would argue that typing a person becomes somewhat easier with video, but forget text alone. Forget still images, too. You need to see a person in motion, ask questions etc. It isn't as easy as many make it out to be. Even some of the best in the business struggle like heck with certain individuals. We're a complex bunch, us humans.

As a final thought, I will concede that in spite of what I learned during my time rubbing shoulders with real practitioners, I have (against their advice) noticed certain physical traits within individuals of certain types. For example, I swear I can spot Ni in a person's eyes. I've yet to be proven wrong, because everyone I've looked at and thought 'Ni!' has actually turned out to be (colleagues who have worked with the MBTI; friends who were eventually professionally typed... and also my wife).

Meh. Not to shit on Rekful or anything - he simply catalysed the rant. Not because of what he said, but because of memories dredged up.

All that being said, I'm an INTJ. Ask me questions if you want. I'll answer honestly, though be aware that there's zero guarantee you'll find any correlation at all - even if you are an INTJ yourself.

If you are an INTJ, you should be able to identify Ni as your MO... but then trying to explain Ni, even to other Ni users, can be akin to explaining colours to a blind person. It ain't so easy.

Rixus · Dec 21, 2016

Emerald said:
This is gonna be a long post

I'll start with INTJ:
When talking about the auxiliary Te, there's a lot on how INTJs have clear plans, nothing ambiguous, they are perfectionists, etc. The part about giving rational form to whatever their intuition conjured up would also be incorrect for me. A lot of what is said about intuition and the dominant function is a bit confusing for me, so I can't say if I agree with it or not. The part where it says that INTJs can't stand small talk or 'rubbing elbows' is very true for me, I usually can't get past 'how are you'.

INTP:
The part about inner self-control and discipline does not apply to me. I am usually very lazy unless something really captures me, currently it's playing piano. It's challenging and interesting enough for me to keep going. The part about patterns is correct though, I look for patterns even in something artistic like music pieces that I play. The part about Fe also didn't strike a chord with me. It states that INTPs are more concerned with keeping harmony than helping others.

I found that personalityjunkie didn't match some other resources I've read, but so far I have not made an opinion on any websites/articles as far as their accuracy goes. What would you consider the best resource for learning about the types?

I would not be entirely surprised if I am an F. My personal bias and fears might be working against me when I consider the possibility, cause it does antagonize me a bit. I think I would prefer being an INTP (which I probably am) or coming to the conclusion that I'm in the middle between P and J. I could be second guessing myself too much as I often do.

For me, attempted small talk ha always been an experience somewhat similar to having my teeth drilled. I can't think of a single thing to say that would be interesting, and neither can they. Yet you must continue to pass pointless words that you learn nothing from back and forth. I just, "can we get past this boring shit first so we can talk about something interesting? Or just go away if this is it?"

When I first read, "extroverted emotions" I thought that it had to be wrong, obviously. Me? Extroverted feelings? And I just pictured people who puke their feelings all over the place like a mixture of tequila and curry at the end of a night out. I'm not sure I understand the concept correctly, but they say it's more that we like to keep emotional harmony around us. And I do tend to think about why someone is feeling the way they are, and look for a solution if one is possible. Helping others? Apparently, it's not normal for an INTP, but I can be oddly altruistic. I've been meaning to start a thread on the subject. Considering the odd and sometimes dangerous and humiliating things I've done to help other people when it was clear I was able to offer assistance (examples include performing a Full Monty show so that they could raise enough for the operation, diving into a waterfall to pull someone out when they fell in, making myself late for work by stopping to jump-start someone's car, and just the other night risking my ass to confront a group of guys who appeared to have stolen my friends phone from her handbag.) I don't know if it's a normal part of Fe or not (I don't really get the concept), but other people suffering or needing help bothers me when I can do something - it feels like it's my fault if do nothing.

PmjPmj · Dec 21, 2016

I think all of that can be attributed to being a decent human being, Rixus. Type need not be applied to it.

Rixus · Dec 21, 2016

PmjPmj said:
I think all of that can be attributed to being a decent human being, Rixus. Type need not be applied to it.

Well, that's what I've always thought. And it wasn't meant to brag, "look how good a person I am," because I usually just do whatever's gotta be done and assume anyone there would have. But then I've also wondered - in each of those cases other's could have done something and didn't.
I was with 3 other guys when that little girl fell into the waterfall. The others just stood there while I jumped in. And we knew we could all swim in the current - we hadn't long done so for fun.
I ended up doing the Full Monty show because the bouncers backed out of it.
There was a whole car park full of people going past that car, and I was the only one with jump cables? Surely not.

I guess I don't get why other people don't.

QuickTwist · Dec 21, 2016

Here is a Joke for Ya'll

Q: What is the percentage of INFJs on the internet?
A: More than the average population.

PmjPmj · Dec 21, 2016

Rixus said:
Well, that's what I've always thought. And it wasn't meant to brag, "look how good a person I am," because I usually just do whatever's gotta be done and assume anyone there would have. But then I've also wondered - in each of those cases other's could have done something and didn't.
I was with 3 other guys when that little girl fell into the waterfall. The others just stood there while I jumped in. And we knew we could all swim in the current - we hadn't long done so for fun.
I ended up doing the Full Monty show because the bouncers backed out of it.
There was a whole car park full of people going past that car, and I was the only one with jump cables? Surely not.

I guess I don't get why other people don't.

There was no need to explain yourself. To me, you didn't at all come across as though you were peacocking about your humanitarian nature.

This topic (humane acts, etc.) comes up quite a lot in type discussions. Specifically those I've had with practitioners. There seems to be some kind of belief that a preference for Te or Ti equates to a cold heartedness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without exception, the 'T' individuals I know have been far more inclined to act like decent human beings by extending dignity to others. For example: demonstrating reasonablenes when placed in scenarios that would most often have my F acquaintances blow up.

F friend receiving the wrong order: "I can't believe this fucking shit! I ordered a burger, not pasta! I'm going to complain! THIS. IS. AN. OUTRAGE. I'M SO FUCKING TRIGGERED RIGHT NOW!"

T friend receiving the wrong order: "This isn't what I ordered".

Waitress: "Oh, I'm sorry! What did you order?"

T friend: *looks around the restaurant*

"You know what? It's fine. I can see you're busy and I can tell by the commotion coming from the kitchen that you guys aren't having the best day. This is fine, thank you".

T does not = cunt. In my personal experience, of course. I'm sure there are plenty of cunty Ts out there ;p

:cthulhu:

Rixus · Dec 21, 2016

PmjPmj said:
There was no need to explain yourself. To me, you didn't at all come across as though you were peacocking about your humanitarian nature.

This topic (humane acts, etc.) comes up quite a lot in type discussions. Specifically those I've had with practitioners. There seems to be some kind of belief that a preference for Te or Ti equates to a cold heartedness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Without exception, the 'T' individuals I know have been far more inclined to act like decent human beings by extending dignity to others. For example: demonstrating reasonablenes when placed in scenarios that would most often have my F acquaintances blow up.

F friend receiving the wrong order: "I can't believe this fucking shit! I ordered a burger, not pasta! I'm going to complain! THIS. IS. AN. OUTRAGE. I'M SO FUCKING TRIGGERED RIGHT NOW!"

T friend receiving the wrong order: "This isn't what I ordered".

Waitress: "Oh, I'm sorry! What did you order?"

T friend: *looks around the restaurant*

"You know what? It's fine. I can see you're busy and I can tell by the commotion coming from the kitchen that you guys aren't having the best day. This is fine, thank you".

T does not = cunt. In my personal experience, of course. I'm sure there are plenty of cunty Ts out there ;p

That is something I've seen before and would mostly agree with. I don't know that many T-dominant people, though. There are some exceptions, obviously. but Feelers do seem to get so wound up about everything. It's led me to the belief that suppressing emotions is actually a good thing. But whenever the discussion comes up, I get accused of it being Nietzschean, cold hearted, or psychopathic. They start going on about compassion and so on. Yet in my experience, selfish emotions are far more prominent, and deciding to help people or just to not unnecessarily cause hurt is completely logical.

(And my habit of assuming something I've said is offensive and quickly clarifying what I meant it is down to the fact that it happens to me a lot in RL and I'm just used to everything I say being taken in the worst possible context it can be.)

QuickTwist · Dec 21, 2016

OMG, My father is the worst F ever then. He reminds me of those Gamers who can't get their game to work so they ask for a refund, like an ass hat. "I don't like the price so I am going to blow up in your face and make a scene because I didn't read the fine print!" Yeah, that about sums it up. Honestly, I can't count the times my father has balled out someone he hired because he did something wrong. This is why not caring is a huge advantage sometimes.

PmjPmj · Dec 21, 2016

Rixus said:
(And my habit of assuming something I've said is offensive and quickly clarifying what I meant it is down to the fact that it happens to me a lot in RL and I'm just used to everything I say being taken in the worst possible context it can be.)

Oh, you poor git. Sounds like you grew up among unhealthy feelers - just like I did.

Up until very recently (although I still do it on occasion) I was somewhat similar, given that I'd been brought up largely by individuals with a preference for Fe. I wasn't really 'allowed' to be myself growing up, and found myself having to apologise almost constantly for... er... being reasonable? Telling the truth? Pointing out flawed thinking in the genuine hope I'd be helping someone? Whatever the case, I too (again, up until very recently) would find myself questioning everything I said. I became acutely aware of how I came across to others, and quite frankly I was shocked. No wonder I've inadvertently pissed so many people off in my time

Don't worry - you'll eventually get to the point where you simply stop giving a fuck. You can't possibly be responsible for the feelings of others. It isn't your job to ensure that a person isn't offended; people can and will find provocation with anything they can. Being recreationally offended has become something of a fad in recent years. For examples, see SJWs.

I know individuals who wake up in the morning just *waiting* to be offended so they can have a meltdown at something or someone. It's fucking irritating.

Oh, and as for compassion? Fuck that. Dignity. Always dignity. I do not trust compassion. I am highly (highly) sceptical of 'compassionate' individuals. In my experience, those are the cunts who will fuck you over at the first opportunity they get. No. I much prefer people who let me know where I stand. I extend that courtesy to others and I expect it to be reciprocated. I've had too many bad experiences with people being disingenuous and later blowing up in fits of snot, tears and excessive wailing because they didn't like something I said. The truth, usually.

Nope. Noooooope. Nope.

People are shit. Learn this and learn it well. Fuck them all; be yourself. So long as you aren't harming anyone, abso-fucking-100%-lutely fuck it all.

Rixus · Dec 21, 2016

This make me think of s a curious moment from years ago. I was out waling somewhere with a work colleague. A drunken person shouted something at me (I can't even remember what, but it was clearly directed at me and not the girl I was with). I could hardly even be bothered to turn and look at the person who'd said it. She, on the other hand (usually a fairly placid person), started shouting at the source until the upped and left. Then informed me that I should stand up for myself more. Another pair of colleagues witnessed the scene, to which she proclaimed, "he shouldn't have had a go at poor Rixus, then." I was a little confused as it really didn't bother me and seemed wholly unnecessary.

Rixus · Dec 21, 2016

PmjPmj said:
Oh, you poor git. Sounds like you grew up among unhealthy feelers - just like I did.

Up until very recently (although I still do it on occasion) I was somewhat similar, given that I'd been brought up largely by individuals with a preference for Fe. I wasn't really 'allowed' to be myself growing up, and found myself having to apologise almost constantly for... er... being reasonable? Telling the truth? Pointing out flawed thinking in the genuine hope I'd be helping someone? Whatever the case, I too (again, up until very recently) would find myself questioning everything I said. I became acutely aware of how I came across to others, and quite frankly I was shocked. No wonder I've inadvertently pissed so many people off in my time

Don't worry - you'll eventually get to the point where you simply stop giving a fuck. You can't possibly be responsible for the feelings of others. It isn't your job to ensure that a person isn't offended; people can and will find provocation with anything they can. Being recreationally offended has become something of a fad in recent years. For examples, see SJWs.

I know individuals who wake up in the morning just *waiting* to be offended so they can have a meltdown at something or someone. It's fucking irritating.

Oh, and as for compassion? Fuck that. Dignity. Always dignity. I do not trust compassion. I am highly (highly) sceptical of 'compassionate' individuals. In my experience, those are the cunts who will fuck you over at the first opportunity they get. No. I much prefer people who let me know where I stand. I extend that courtesy to others and I expect it to be reciprocated. I've had too many bad experiences with people being disingenuous and later blowing up in fits of snot, tears and excessive wailing because they didn't like something I said. The truth, usually.

Nope. Noooooope. Nope.

People are shit. Learn this and learn it well. Fuck them all; be yourself. So long as you aren't harming anyone, abso-fucking-100%-lutely fuck it all.

I am learning this. And yes, I was the only T-dom in my family (except for that I suspect my brother to be ISTP but I haven't seen him in over a year so I can't test this). My mother was a very unhealthy ISFP, and everything was always "how this affects me." (she is a lot more tolerable these days). But it's not just that.

It happens wherever I go. And I don't think I'm being unreasonable. A couple of months ago, my friend told me what she'd bought her kid for Christmas. I told her he would like it, but she should check the model is correct as I know kids in my kids' school would get picked on for that one. I thought it was good advice. But she accused me of picking holes and promptly messenger blocked me for two months (and wonders why I can hardly be bothered to reply to her now.)

Another time some guy from another department told me my job serves no purpose and as the computer does it all now. I told him that conversely, if someone did not understand how his job worked, they might say the same thing about the machine he uses being automatic enough that he doesn't do anything; but of course I know better than that. I thought I'd made my point in a polite enough manner. He spent over an hour protesting his case and I had to have a meeting with a manager about not offending people.

As for your mannerisms, I've read that INTJ's can be blunt and not realise how offensive they are and that they don't care at all, I've heard the word "predators" and "ass-holes" used. Personally, you're one of 3 I've met (that I know of) and I've found you all to be very likeable and reasonable people.

Nick85 · Dec 21, 2016

So you guys are defining ILI = INTJ? Or is it more like some INTPs will turn out LII moderately more often than ILI but INTJs turn out as ILI much more often than LII?

I come out as strongly I and strongly P on this test (about 83-88% and 74-83% respectively)
https://www.16personalities.com/personality-types

However I come out as ILI or LIE on this
http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ILI-INTp/
I took the test twice and first time was 100% ILI, 91% LIE; second time ws 100% LIE, 90% ILI.
http://www.sociotype.com/tests/result/est/199792
http://www.sociotype.com/tests/result/est/199999

Seems strange to think I might be ENTJ when I score so high on I and P on 16personalities (MBTI) and comparatively more weakly on N and T (65-66% and 52-56% respectively).

Anyways, if we're saying ILI = INTJ seems like there's a good chance I'm INTJ.

reckful · Dec 21, 2016

@Emerald —

I'm planning to be back with some more follow-up on your type (including your latest reply to me), but in the meantime, and especially since PmjPmj has offered you a significant dose of the Berens/Nardi function-centric MBTI framing (which is unquestionably — and annoyingly — popular at MBTI forums), I'd be remiss if I didn't note that, if you're interested in reading a fair amount of input from me on the relationship between the dichotomies and the functions, the place of the functions (or lack thereof) in the MBTI's history, and the tremendous gap between the dichotomies and the functions in terms of scientific respectability, you'll find a lot of potentially eye-opening discussion in this post and this post.

Your decision about your type should not not not not not end up revolving around whether you think you're, e.g., Ni-Te-Fi-Se or Ti-Ne-Si-Fe or Ni-Fe-Ti-Se or etc., or about whether you're a J on the outside and a P on the inside (or vice versa), or about whether you're a "Ti/Fe type" or a "Te/Fi type."

What I like to call the Real MBTI Model is inconsistent with those framings, and the Real MBTI Model — which was essentially Isabel Myers' model, if you set aside some of the Jungian lip service — is really the only MBTI framing that's in a more respectable category than astrology.

PmjPmj · Dec 21, 2016

reckful said:
What I like to call the Real MBTI Model is inconsistent with those framings, and the Real MBTI Model — which was essentially Isabel Myers' model, if you set aside some of the Jungian lip service — is really the only MBTI framing that's in a more respectable category than astrology.

Cheap shot, man. Cheap shot

I completely disagree, but I'll certainly entertain your thoughts on the subject.

Your argument for why a primitive, reductionistic model is superior to a model which has been refined and improved over the course of decades should prove interesting if nothing else.

Also, you may have somewhat misjudged my stance; I spent (way back when) an inordinate amount of time and energy being pissed off at the nonsense so frequently shat out all over MBTI forums. I have spoken to Berens and Nardi but it's the OPP guys I worked with for a while.

Fun fact: said people think OPP are shit/cunts and tend to do things their own way, because fuck the OPP >_>

They do have lovely pens, though. I nicked a handful of them a while back. Decent quality kit, yo.

Emerald · Dec 21, 2016

This is gonna be interesting.
I don't think I'll join either 'clan', but it will be very educational to read both of your input on this. @reckful @PmjPmj

Artsu Tharaz · Dec 22, 2016

QuickTwist said:
Here is a Joke for Ya'll

Q: What is the percentage of INFJs on the internet?
A: More than the average population.

not sure why, but I laughed at this.

Emerald said:
I remember when I was around 10 years old I was obsessed with figuring out a way for the world to work without money. Somehow make all or at least most people altruistic and honest and stuff and utilize everybody's skills and talents for the greater good. People would get to do what they loved and if anyone out there is like me, then they would have gladly done it for free (I gladly pet sit for anyone, anytime). However, I always ran into problems like thieves and greed and power and imbalance in how much a person did vs how much they received. That was my 10 year old little mind.

Totally INFJ, softie!

I would say that Feeling types are more altruistic, yes, whereas Thinking types are more concerned with doing what benefits themselves (I'm unsure if I've made Feeling types sound "better" than Thinking types here, but I do have bias in that regard).

You can also consider that Feeling types are based around harmony and what feels right, and Thinkers are based around logic and what would be right through detached analysis. That can then be extended into altruism vs self-interest, since altruism is harder to justify through detached analysis, and tends to involve some level of "feeling that it is the right thing to do".

For J vs P you can consider goals vs exploring. Js are goal-focused, and with INJs the goals can be very long range, such as a life plan. Ps are focused on exploring options, and are less likely to stay on track with a plan, instead motivated by urgency. This is not to say that Js are necessarily less lazy - I wouldn't say that an INFJ for example is very active necessarily in achieving their goals, although some can be very driven. I think the future-focus of the N preference can give a mindset towards bettering future states through their behaviour, so you may say get an INFJ very into exercise even though physical activity may be considered a more Se thing.

I personally never really considered myself an INTJ. Somehow I just knew I wasn't one, although I'm not sure how. It may be from observing INTJs around the internet and just noting that I didn't really seem like them, or maybe it was based on an archetypal picture I had in mind of the INTJ (I think my archetypal pictures for the types do actually tend to be accurate, at least somewhat). There's something about the intellectual manner they approach subjects, and the critical attitude towards people that just doesn't fit me. I think a lot of INFJs are better with analysing relationships than I am, but still I do fit the "altruistic softie" characteristics, in that my behaviour is generally polite and considerate, and I tend to consider myself one among many in my decisions, so I will happily give to others if they will make about as good use of what I give as I would.

Lastly, a note on trust. INFJs can be trusting in a certain sense, but, myself included, can often have trust issues and take a long while to trust. Still, I think they have a tendency to look for the best in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. I can sometimes be skeptical even with people I know well and for little good reason, and then on the other hand assume that a stranger means well when there is little clear indication to say so. A lot comes down to risk and how vulnerable it would make me to be trusting in the situation. All in all, I have a positive attitude towards human relationships, although I still require huge amounts of alone time.

So, if you're considering INFJ, feel free to ask me questions that may help clarify.

reckful · Dec 22, 2016

Emerald said:
I'll start with INTJ:
When talking about the auxiliary Te, there's a lot on how INTJs have clear plans, nothing ambiguous, they are perfectionists, etc. The part about giving rational form to whatever their intuition conjured up would also be incorrect for me.

My first post in this thread linked you to my J/P roundup, and one section of that (INTJs as doers) involves me taking substantial issue with the notion that, as I put it, "INTPs are happy to be slackers who just think about stuff and INTJs are 'doers' with a core drive to be racking up actual accomplishments in the outside world." As I explain: "although there may be a kernel of truth there, I'd say E and S both have substantially more to do with whether someone craves external-world results than J does. An INTJ can be quite content to learn about things, and master skills, that the INTJ isn't likely to be putting to much (if any) real-world use, and I'd point to my longstanding MBTI dweebishness as one anecdotal example."

Emerald said:
INTP:
The part about inner self-control and discipline does not apply to me. I am usually very lazy unless something really captures me, currently it's playing piano. It's challenging and interesting enough for me to keep going. The part about patterns is correct though, I look for patterns even in something artistic like music pieces that I play. The part about Fe also didn't strike a chord with me. It states that INTPs are more concerned with keeping harmony than helping others.

The whole notion that IPs are J-doms who are, in effect, J's on the inside and P's on the outside is, honest to God, a steaming pile of donkey dookie. Does an average INFP exhibit more "self-control and discipline" than an average INFJ? Fuck, no. And in fact, "self-control and discipline" is really one of the core features of what a J preference tends to involve — in extraverts and introverts both, and both inside and outside. And there's quite a bit more on that issue in my linked J/P roundup.

I'm a strong-J INTJ, and I've always been more of a slacker than an ambitious guy. As further discussed in the roundup, my strong J means I take my responsibilities very seriously (the Big Five calls the J/P dimension "Conscientiousness"), but it doesn't mean I like to have responsibilities. And on the contrary, I'd say that, in at least some circumstances, the fact that my responsibilities weigh heavily on me (as they say) can make me more reluctant to take them on. One of my closest friends is a big-P ENFP, and she's much less hesitant than I am to overfill her commitments/obligations plate (something ENFPs are kind of famous for), but also much less mortified than I am if she fails to perform. (She's always got a "good excuse," often involving one or more of the competing obligations.)

All the INs are bigtime pattern-spotters, so that's not really an INTP>INTJ thing.

As for the INTP's supposed "Fe"... as explained in those functions-vs.-dichotomies posts I linked you to, the notion that TPs exhibit "Fe" aspects of personality that make them more like FJs (in those respects) than TJs or FPs is a notion that's both counterintuitive — because going from FJ to TJ or FP involves one preference change, and going from FJ to TP involves flipping both preferences — and also, more important than the counterintuitiveness, corresponds to correlational patterns among the types that have steadfastly failed to show up in 50 years of MBTI data pools. (And ditto for the INTP's supposed "tertiary Si" causing them to share personality characteristics with SJs.)

A drive to "help others" is decidedly an F>T thing — although that's nothing like saying that F's want to help everybody, or even help most people — and not really an INTP>INTJ thing.

"Harmony" is complicated. As I just explained at another forum, comparing INFJs and INFPs in the feather-ruffling department:

It's typical of function-based analyses that categorize INFJs as "Fe types" and INFPs as "Fi types" to overdo/distort whatever mild differences there may be in that department. A typical INFP is a pretty accommodating type, and not unlikely to "adapt" to someone they're not that close to — moreso than either INT type would, certainly — "so we can get along more easily." ...

I'd maybe say that an INFP is more likely than an INFJ to rub somebody the wrong way by expressing/flaunting some unusual viewpoint or well-cultivated eccentricity (and to have a well-cultivated eccentricity to flaunt in the first place) — but not with a mean-spirited intent — but that an INFJ is more likely than an INFP to rub somebody the wrong way by arguing with them or lecturing them in a way that reflects the attitude that the INFJ considers this an I'm-right-you're-wrong situation, rather than an everybody's-got-their-own-perspective situation. Is an INFJ pretty likely to be a tongue-biter for the sake of harmony, depending on who they're talking to and the relative importance of the issues involved? Absolutely — but so is an INFP.

Both INF types are more likely to be tongue-biters than their INT counterparts, but as between an INTJ and an INTP, I'd say the difference parallels the INFJ/INFP difference I described. INTPs are more likely to be openly eccentric/iconoclastic than INTJs, but also more relativistic, while INTJs are more likely to be I'm-right-you're-wrongish.

Emerald said:
I found that personalityjunkie didn't match some other resources I've read, but so far I have not made an opinion on any websites/articles as far as their accuracy goes. What would you consider the best resource for learning about the types?

See the spoiler...

For someone who's looking for good books on the MBTI, I think Isabel Myers' Gifts Differing and David Keirsey's Please Understand Me (either the original 1978 version or Please Understand Me II is fine) are still the best two, after all these years — and as you'll see if you read my linked posts, I definitely don't recommend books (or internet sources) with a primary focus on the so-called "cognitive functions" (rather than the dichotomies).

Here's a round-up of some online resources.

Myers-Briggs Introduction (Cory Caplinger)

This link sometimes redirects, but I've always been able to get the real page after several attempts. That first linked page (mbintro.htm) describes the four dichotomies; here's a page with links to type descriptions; and here's a page about the functions.

Keirsey's temperaments

This page includes links to pages for each of Keirsey's temperament groups — Guardians (SJs); Artisans (SPs); Idealists (NFs); and Rationals (NTs) — and a profile page for each of the 16 types.

personalitypage

This is a multi-contributor and somewhat mixed-quality site, but there's quite a bit of decent stuff, and the site includes:

A user named Abraxas has helpfully posted the descriptions of the five subfacets of each of the four MBTI dichotomies (from the MBTI Step II Manual) at PerC, so you can read a lot of the current "official" MBTI take on the four dichotomies in these posts:

Extraversion / Introversion
Sensing / Intuition
Thinking / Feeling
Judging / Perceiving

In the next spoiler are online profile roundups for the 16 types:

Emerald said:
I think I would prefer being an INTP (which I probably am) or coming to the conclusion that I'm in the middle between P and J. I could be second guessing myself too much as I often do.

If you're ever feeling torn between J and P and anybody tries to tell you that INTJs and INTPs (or INFJs and INFPs) are waaay different (because functions!) or that you can't possibly be an INTx (or INFx) (because functions!), you may want to look at this Typology Central post (part of the previously-mentioned 10-post extravaganza).

PmjPmj · Dec 25, 2016

If you haven't already, you should consider publishing an e-book on the topic.

Bad Itch · Dec 25, 2016

PmjPmj said:
If you haven't already, you should consider publishing an e-book on the topic.

+1

Because *sploosh*.

Could I be an INTJ?

ScatterBrain

Alien_with_goals

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

Detecting...

The Lamb

Full of stars.

Banned

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

INTJ

ScatterBrain

ScatterBrain

INTJ

ScatterBrain

INTJ

ScatterBrain

Full of stars.

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

Full of stars.

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

Spiritual "Woo"

Full of stars.

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

Spiritual "Woo"

Full of stars.

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

I introverted think. Therefore, I am.

Member

INTJ

Full of stars.

ScatterBrain

The Lamb

INTJ

Full of stars.

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