Consciousness?

[Old Things]

@Black Rose, just admit it, you cannot talk to me without talking about me.

I try and deal with the issues. You are the one making it personal.

 

[Old Things]

You say that

act like a Christian

ignorance

No one can tell me my personal experience

oldthings believes

You believe

what you are saying

you are saying

Black and White thinkers

you cannot

Are you

If you are

You need to

if you

If you

you are poor at communication

I do not see why you

If you can not

You are

I think @Old Things you

You are

That is why you are

I just think that you do not

I only recommend you try and

caused you to

that required you

Are you doing what

You are

You don't

why you fear

you said

you are

which means you

Everything you said

You must

you said

you again

you take everything personally

 

[Black Rose]

@Black Rose, just admit it, you cannot talk to me without talking about me.

I try and deal with the issues. You are the one making it personal.

I don't think you are a bad person.

Is that what you think I did by making assumptions about what you believe?

I said you did the same thing and I would not say I am offended.

I am offended when people think I have no flexibility to change.

I gave many reasons why this or that could be this or that way, I was shut down countless times. I do not know why so I came up with ideas why. Ideas are neutral.

So why are you offended? Ideas are neutral. What makes ideas not neutral?

The conclusion I see is that to you Extraverted Intuition = rationalization

I do not say this to make you the bad guy, I say this because I don't know what you expect me to do? Why must I agree that I am in the wrong? Why must everything be about you? Is it because I said you were the bad guy, I do not see where I did that. Extraverted Intuition as I understand it has nothing to do with that. But it seems you are offended which is the reason I disbelieve you have it. I got offended because you did not seem to grasp the wholistic nature of what I was saying, but nowhere did I say you were bad. you might be judging this wrong? several times you made judgments and so did I but I cannot separate what it is to make clear why I did so to show you it was not offensive.

 

[Old Things]

No one can tell me my personal experience

This is about the most ironic thing you could have possibly said.

 

[Old Things]

I said you did the same thing and I would not say I am offended.

My comments are a response to what you are saying. If you are offended for me saying something about you after you have continually and repeatedly made accusations against me that would not surprise me one bit.

 

[ZenRaiden]

TO be precise this thread got derailed over whether looking inside is meaningful.

Which is super funny given its about consciousness.

 

[Old Things]

TO be precise this thread got derailed over whether looking inside is meaningful.

Which is super funny given its about consciousness.

Only on INTPforum.

 

[Old Things]

I don't know what you expect me to do?

I expect you to stop making claims about what other people think, feel, and believe.

 

[Old Things]

Why must everything be about you?

IDK, you tell me why you constantly ascribe things to me that are not true.

 

[Old Things]

Is that what you think I did by making assumptions about what you believe?

That's not the point. The point is not whether you are assuming I am evil. The point is that you are assuming things of me falsely at all.

 

[Black Rose]

I don't know what you expect me to do?

I expect you to stop making claims about what other people think, feel, and believe.

That would not allow me to understand them.

I do not see why that is bad.

Why must everything be about you?

IDK, you tell me why you constantly ascribe things to me that are not true.

Because I cannot read your mind and I must think about what you are saying so I can communicate what it is I can say.

Is that what you think I did by making assumptions about what you believe?

That's not the point. The point is not whether you are assuming I am evil. The point is that you are assuming things of me falsely at all.

how am I supposed to know what is true and false in your mind?

I never definitely said old things was this or that way.

I can change what I think about you if I see things become different.

why are you mad at what others think of you?

 

[Old Things]

I don't know what you expect me to do?

I expect you to stop making claims about what other people think, feel, and believe.

That would not allow me to understand them.

I do not see why that is bad.

Why must everything be about you?

IDK, you tell me why you constantly ascribe things to me that are not true.

Because I cannot read your mind and I must think about what you are saying so I can communicate what it is I can say.

Is that what you think I did by making assumptions about what you believe?

That's not the point. The point is not whether you are assuming I am evil. The point is that you are assuming things of me falsely at all.

how am I supposed to know what is true and false in your mind?

I never definitely said old things was this or that way.

I can change what I think about you if I see things become different.

why are you mad at what others think of you?

You can have a discussion with someone without assuming things about people (falsely). It shows that you are kinda immature because when I say this, you don't even understand how it is possible to do that.

Try sticking to the issues. Don't assume things about people. Just deal with what is actually said. You repeatedly put words in my mouth that I neither said nor meant. If you cannot understand how this is a problem, you got big issues in communicating.

I don't have this same problem with @ZenRaiden, or @scorpiomover, or even @Cognisant (who I disagree with a lot on fundamental things). Why is it that I only have this issue with you, @Black Rose. You say you are not opposed to changing. So this is one area you should definitely work on.

 

[Black Rose]

You can have a discussion with someone without assuming things about people (falsely). It shows that you are kinda immature because when I say this, you don't even understand how it is possible to do that.

Try sticking to the issues. Don't assume things about people. Just deal with what is actually said. You repeatedly put words in my mouth that I neither said nor meant. If you cannot understand how this is a problem, you got big issues in communicating.

Look, I did something bad. That is what you want me to admit to.

So yes I did all those things but I believe you did the exact same.

It might be true or false but I cannot get over the fact that you are mad at me.

I do not want people mad at me but if we are to not fight anyone I advise you to not accuse me of falsely accusing you because that is a false accusation. I admit what I did was bad but it was not a false accusation. Please accept that and move on.

 

[Old Things]

You can have a discussion with someone without assuming things about people (falsely). It shows that you are kinda immature because when I say this, you don't even understand how it is possible to do that.

Try sticking to the issues. Don't assume things about people. Just deal with what is actually said. You repeatedly put words in my mouth that I neither said nor meant. If you cannot understand how this is a problem, you got big issues in communicating.

Look, I did something bad. That is what you want me to admit to.

So yes I did all those things but I believe you did the exact same.

It might be true or false but I cannot get over the fact that you are mad at me.

I do not want people mad at me but if we are to not fight anyone I advise you to not accuse me of falsely accusing you because that is a false accusation. I admit what I did was bad but it was not a false accusation. Please accept that and move on.

I am not trying to shame you into submission. I am trying to get you to change at this point since you said yourself you are open to changing.

I have not been nearly as focused on assuming things about you as you have about me. That's a fact. Where I have said things about you, these are things that have been demonstrated, not just based on what I imagine you are like. In other words, I am not ASSUMING things about you. This is a big difference that you don't seem to see.

I'm not focused on being mad at you. I've tried to be reasonable, not just give in to emotions.

Stop saying I am mad at you. I have repeatedly tried to control my emotions in this discussion, offering reasoning rather than focusing on how I am feeling.

You seriously need to work on not assuming things about people.

 

[ZenRaiden]

OK here is my view of consciousness without the new age spiritual take on it.
1) Consciousness is something I am aware of, because there is feedback loop, of awareness, therefore I am aware that I am aware.
2) My awareness is roughly divided into three categories, and that is my body, my mind, and my thoughts (ergo brain).
3) Where I focus my attention is what I am most aware of therefore conscious of.
If I for instance focus my attention on my body parts I am aware of my body.
If I am aware of my mind (the various reactions of it and feelings) I am aware of those.
If I focus on introspection I am aware of my thoughts(so called thinking about thinking.)
4)consciousness has various signals and some can be faulty, but our nervous system adjust signals and awareness grows.

 

[Old Things]

OK here is my view of consciousness without the new age spiritual take on it.
1) Consciousness is something I am aware of, because there is feedback loop, of awareness, therefore I am aware that I am aware.
2) My awareness is roughly divided into three categories, and that is my body, my mind, and my thoughts (ergo brain).
3) Where I focus my attention is what I am most aware of therefore conscious of.
If I for instance focus my attention on my body parts I am aware of my body.
If I am aware of my mind (the various reactions of it and feelings) I am aware of those.
If I focus on introspection I am aware of my thoughts(so called thinking about thinking.)
4)consciousness has various signals and some can be faulty, but our nervous system adjust signals and awareness grows.

Just a question and not a criticism, but what's the difference between the mind and thoughts?

 

[Black Rose]

Where I have said things about you, these are things that have been demonstrated, not just based on what I imagine you are like. In other words, I am not ASSUMING things about you. This is a big difference that you don't seem to see.

no, please don't do that.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Just a question and not a criticism, but what's the difference between the mind and thoughts?

Roughly speaking Id go with the neocortex being the house of higher order thinking, that neuron bundle we usually point at when we say we are thinking.
Mind is other structures, that respond and regulate both the mind and body.
So the mind can manifest as emotions, control of body, and 100s of function internally the body does. Mind manifests overall as various kinds of states of awareness.
Like happiness, sadness, aggression etc.

Id argue this is not the same as memory or thoughts although our bodies do have sort of memories of sorts.

SO if you are remembering something like a yesterdays meal, or thinking about what you said, or recalling a word, or planning or using higher order thinking you are using the neocortex the brain bits.

However there is overlap of meanings between brain and mind.
I am myself not clear where the experts draw the line between mind and brain.
I think the terms are used interchangeably, but to me the neocortex is not the mind, as, but more like muscle that grows with age.

That said its hard to function as a human being without the neocortex.

 

[Old Things]

Just a question and not a criticism, but what's the difference between the mind and thoughts?

Roughly speaking Id go with the neocortex being the house of higher order thinking, that neuron bundle we usually point at when we say we are thinking.
Mind is other structures, that respond and regulate both the mind and body.
So the mind can manifest as emotions, control of body, and 100s of function internally the body does. Mind manifests overall as various kinds of states of awareness.
Like happiness, sadness, aggression etc.

Id argue this is not the same as memory or thoughts although our bodies do have sort of memories of sorts.

SO if you are remembering something like a yesterdays meal, or thinking about what you said, or recalling a word, or planning or using higher order thinking you are using the neocortex the brain bits.

However there is overlap of meanings between brain and mind.
I am myself not clear where the experts draw the line between mind and brain.
I think the terms are used interchangeably, but to me the neocortex is not the mind, as, but more like muscle that grows with age.

That said its hard to function as a human being without the neocortex.

Makes sense.

 

[Old Things]

Where I have said things about you, these are things that have been demonstrated, not just based on what I imagine you are like. In other words, I am not ASSUMING things about you. This is a big difference that you don't seem to see.

no, please don't do that.

This makes no sense to me. You do not want me to say things that are readily apparent to anyone on this site, but don't say anything about you yourself, assuming wrong things about me all over the place?

 

[Black Rose]

I am not allowed to say what you think of me.

But it is possible you made assumptions about me.

In that regard, the demonstration is inaccurate to what happened.

please do not say things about me as if they are true

 

[Old Things]

I am not allowed to say what you think of me.

But it is possible you made assumptions about me.

In that regard, the demonstration is inaccurate to what happened.

please do not say things about me as if they are true

When was the last time you realized you were wrong about something? Honest question.

I've demonstrated very clearly that you have said many things about me. You have said things about what I think that are not true because I never expressed those thoughts yet you assume I must think those things. The comparison between me saying what has been a consistent behavior of you over time and you stating things about me that I neither said nor believe is apples and oranges.

 

[Old Things]

What I said about you is that you come up with a bunch of untested ideas that you just make up. That has been super consistent behavior from you for probably years and years. Yet when I bring this up, you make it my fault that I bring these things up when you have said I am ignorant, not being a Christian, am a bad communicator among many other things that are simply not true.

My patience is wearing thin.

 

[Black Rose]

What do you want me to say?

I will say it.

I was wrong?

ok

 

[Black Rose]

I was wrong.

 

[Old Things]

I was wrong?

Yes, you were. Please understand that I originally wanted nothing to do with what you were saying, but then you pressed the issue and started saying all kinds of things about me that are completely untrue. So I think it's pretty reasonable that I point out the difference between us in this.

Please just try not to tell other people what they think. If you can try and work on this, that would be a very good thing.

 

[Old Things]

I was wrong.

Thank you. Apology accepted. Please make an effort to not make the same mistake again.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Superposition means everywhere at once, or it is found in every position possible to begin with.
Collapse of wave particles is like focus or free will choice falling away from superposition. It regroups back to superposition when focus is changed. They talk about phosphorous (you can find it in Pears) which is like the spark that ignites thinking and/or sparks you up and moves you.
Think of that as an element of the Sun/Spirit/God Spark which feed the neurons.