Consciousness?

[Black Rose]

what you are saying is that every human is not only sinful but pure sin itself.

you are saying that humans are sin incarnate, evil incarnate, not God's image

that makes no sense and I cannot see why you would think this.

View attachment 7793

if this is true then no one has been saved

not a single person has been saved

 

[Black Rose]

@Black Rose,

You think people are inherently good? Then you have never had to wrestle yourself with the wrong you do on a daily basis. I have and I have found that it is impossible for me to be morally perfect. Read Matthew 5-7 and tell me you have not struggled with any of these things and then we will talk.

sin exists but man is not satan

man is gods image not satan

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think once people accept they are just some black hole of nothing, then they are rejecting the good in themselves.
Seems up on its head.

 

[Black Rose]

I think once people accept they are just some black hole of nothing, then they are rejecting the good in themselves.
Seems up on its head.

Black and White thinkers just can't be any other way.

Man, it totally Bad or Man is totally Good.

Rubbish.

 

[Old Things]

I think once people accept they are just some black hole of nothing, then they are rejecting the good in themselves.
Seems up on its head.

My hope is not in my own goodness. My hope is in the goodness of Christ who lived the perfect life I should have and died the death I should have because of my sin. Therefore, it is mercy and a work of God that I am saved, not owing to myself or my own good deeds, but due to the deeds imputed to me through the work of Christ. That is the Gospel, friend. When you realize you CANNOT be good enough, you realize that only Christ can save you from a holy and righteous God.

 

[Black Rose]

you cannot save bad things you can only save good things

God does not care you are "good enough" God cares that you are something made in his image (love)

love is not something you throw away.

if we were not made of love at the deepest level, God would not care at all.

 

[Old Things]

you cannot save bad things you can only save good things

God does not care you are "good enough" God cares that you are something made in his image (love)

love is not something you throw away.

if we were not made of love at the deepest level, God would not care at all.

You say a lot of things about God and about your beliefs, but you rarely use the Bible as reasoning.

I get called "Bible Man," on this site by some because I understand that the Bible has more authority than my own stupid opinions. And that seems to be all you have are opinions. And I don't think you actually care if your views line up with the Bible. You are content to purport whatever ideas pop into your head. You have no Biblical basis for many of your views. You dream up all these theories and such but don't actually study what the Bible says about these things. Instead, you are concerned with me treating Buddhism unfairly.

 

[ZenRaiden]

When you realize you CANNOT be good enough

Good enough for what?

 

[Black Rose]

you cannot save bad things you can only save good things

God does not care you are "good enough" God cares that you are something made in his image (love)

love is not something you throw away.

if we were not made of love at the deepest level, God would not care at all.

You say a lot of things about God and about your beliefs, but you rarely use the Bible as reasoning.

I get called "Bible Man," on this site by some because I understand that the Bible has more authority than my own stupid opinions. And that seems to be all you have are opinions. And I don't think you actually care if your views line up with the Bible. You are content to purport whatever ideas pop into your head. You have no Biblical basis for many of your views. You dream up all these theories and such but don't actually study what the Bible says about these things. Instead, you are concerned with me treating Buddhism unfairly.

Are you made in God's image or are you not made in God's image?

If you are then he will not throw you away.

You need to accept that God loves you and stop believing you are worthless.

 

[Old Things]

When you realize you CANNOT be good enough

Good enough for what?

To be acceptable God. If God is perfect, then he cannot tolerate imperfection because perfection would be the very essence of His being. If God cannot tolerate imperfection, then He would have to do something about that. Some people think God could just wave a magic wand and forgive everyone. But this would be a perversion of God's justice. Imperfection must be dealt with in one way or another. That is why Jesus Christ came into the world to die. Because, as I said, He lived a perfect life which only He could do since He was fully God in human form. That is why the Gospel of John says, "The Word (logos) became flesh." Being fully God and fully man means He was the only one who could live a perfect life. And the Bible says He set aside his divinity so that "existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited." Rather, the Bible says that He came "To serve rather than to be served." His whole purpose of coming was so that He could bring us back into fellowship with God the Father. Why? Because we have all sinned. We have all broken God's commandments. But then Jesus did something very special for the human race. He took it upon Himself to die on our behalf. He took the punishment we deserved as we have all sinned and the payment for sin is death. Not just a physical death, but a spiritual death. The Bible says in Isaiah that, "By His wounds we are healed." This is more than just a physical healing, but is a spiritual healing. So when Christ died, He said, "It is finished." That meant the payment for sin had been paid by Him suffering and dying on the cross. It was by his blood and death that we are made right with God. Christ dying on the cross was the fulfillment of the sacrificial system talked about in the Old Testament. The book of Hebrews says that Christ needed to die to fulfill, "The blood of the eternal covenant." There is power in blood and there is power in spilt blood. But given that Christ did no wrong, God the Father, as was right, resurrected the Lord Jesus. And without the resurrection, there would be no Christianity because Jesus just died a criminal's death. There would be nothing left to say about Christ if he just died there at the cross. He would not have even been a footnote in history if it ended there. Further, Christ promised to come back to Earth one day. If God through Christ can create the whole universe, then He could certainly do the same thing again. And that is what my hope is in. I am not living for this life. I am living for the return of Christ when He will "repay each one for what they have done," whether good or evil. And there is only salvation--to be saved from a perfect God at the end of time if you accept that Christ died for your sins. If you acknowledge that Christ paid for your sins to a righteous God and believe that he is coming again, then you are not far from the kingdom. The Bible says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

And that is what I believe in.

 

[ZenRaiden]

All of that its fine. Whatever you believe.

 

[Old Things]

you cannot save bad things you can only save good things

God does not care you are "good enough" God cares that you are something made in his image (love)

love is not something you throw away.

if we were not made of love at the deepest level, God would not care at all.

You say a lot of things about God and about your beliefs, but you rarely use the Bible as reasoning.

I get called "Bible Man," on this site by some because I understand that the Bible has more authority than my own stupid opinions. And that seems to be all you have are opinions. And I don't think you actually care if your views line up with the Bible. You are content to purport whatever ideas pop into your head. You have no Biblical basis for many of your views. You dream up all these theories and such but don't actually study what the Bible says about these things. Instead, you are concerned with me treating Buddhism unfairly.

Are you made in God's image or are you not made in God's image?

If you are then he will not throw you away.

You need to accept that God loves you and stop believing you are worthless.

What does it mean to be made in God's image? There are tons of different interpretations of this. Some people think it means our ability to have Libertarian Free Will. Some people think (incorrectly) that it means God is in us (such as New Agers and such). Some people think it just means that we are in the same form as Christ who existed before the foundations of the world. So there are many different ways to understand what it means to be made in God's image. So how are you concluding what it means to be made in God's image and why should I accept your singular definition of what it means?

 

[Black Rose]

Are you made in God's image or are you not made in God's image?

If you are then he will not throw you away.

You need to accept that God loves you and stop believing you are worthless.

What does it mean to be made in God's image? There are tons of different interpretations of this. Some people think it means our ability to have Libertarian Free Will. Some people think (incorrectly) that it means God is in us (such as New Agers and such). Some people think it just means that we are in the same form as Christ who existed before the foundations of the world. So there are many different ways to understand what it means to be made in God's image. So how are you concluding what it means to be made in God's image and why should I accept your singular definition of what it means?

I have had many encounters with people who tell me I am wrong on this or that matter when it comes to my ideas so it is not like I have not experienced this before. I guess that it is because people don't understand them that they reject them. So I do try and explain what it is I am saying to the degree a person will understand given their preconceptions. Everyone has preconceptions as a barrier to communication. I do not wish to make things less clear than they have to be. So I will make this short.

1 Cor. 3:16–17

God's Image is what God is, a spirit, a mind, and a soul. God as an entity knows it exists, knows what causality is, knows what is possible and impossible. It is said Adam was not like the other animals. He could reason. So if Jesus was God and God is logos then humans can reason and that makes them the image of God. God loves us and if God loves us because he created us then that attribute is also what makes humans in God's image. (love) This means that reason and love are what makes us the way we are and the only reason God would keep us.

No human is without love or reason that can be called human. So without love or reason God cannot accept us as his children. No human is without love or reason so much that he is unredeemable. If that were true no one would be saved.

 

[Black Rose]

Regardless of what beliefs we have about religion,

people can look inside themselves to learn about the mind.

It is what Carl Jung did when he came up with Introversion as a term.

I think I have experienced every function both introverted and extroverted.

I know I have experienced Ni because of the dreams I have had.

 

[Old Things]

Are you made in God's image or are you not made in God's image?

If you are then he will not throw you away.

You need to accept that God loves you and stop believing you are worthless.

What does it mean to be made in God's image? There are tons of different interpretations of this. Some people think it means our ability to have Libertarian Free Will. Some people think (incorrectly) that it means God is in us (such as New Agers and such). Some people think it just means that we are in the same form as Christ who existed before the foundations of the world. So there are many different ways to understand what it means to be made in God's image. So how are you concluding what it means to be made in God's image and why should I accept your singular definition of what it means?

I have had many encounters with people who tell me I am wrong on this or that matter when it comes to my ideas so it is not like I have not experienced this before. I guess that it is because people don't understand them that they reject them. So I do try and explain what it is I am saying to the degree a person will understand given their preconceptions. Everyone has preconceptions as a barrier to communication. I do not wish to make things less clear than they have to be. So I will make this short.

1 Cor. 3:16–17

God's Image is what God is, a spirit, a mind, and a soul. God as an entity knows it exists, knows what causality is, knows what is possible and impossible. It is said Adam was not like the other animals. He could reason. So if Jesus was God and God is logos then humans can reason and that makes them the image of God. God loves us and if God loves us because he created us then that attribute is also what makes humans in God's image. (love) This means that reason and love are what makes us the way we are and the only reason God would keep us.

No human is without love or reason that can be called human. So without love or reason God cannot accept us as his children. No human is without love or reason so much that he is unredeemable. If that were true no one would be saved.

Look, I don't mean to be a jerk when I say this, but if people are frequently telling you your ideas are bad, then maybe they are. That might sound harsh, but what is more likely? That most people just can't understand your brilliance or that there is something wrong with the idea itself?

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 is used to admonish (even chastise) the Corinthians because they were doing many wicked things. But you seem to not really understand what this means because it does not mean that we are "little gods," (which is a heretical teaching taught by some New Agey type pastors). Christ is the foundation. Everything is built on Him. He is the cornerstone. We are just bricks in the building. Further, all these verses are saying is that these believers have the Holy Spirit living in them. So it does not even apply to every person if they have not been born again.

So if Jesus was God and God is logos then humans can reason and that makes them the image of God.

That does not follow. We are not on an equal playing field as Christ. Christ is supreme. We are not Christ. That is why it says Christ was the "Only begotten son."

 

[Black Rose]

I think @Old Things that if you are not going to try and understand what I am saying then it must be that you have trouble understanding ideas in the first place. This is a INTP forum where we are trying to communicate differences in ideas and come to some kind of mutual understanding but in your case it might not be possible. If you do not believe humans are made in the image of God and you will not try and explain why humans would be accepted by God then it is clear to me you do not understand the bible as well as you think you do because you cannot communicate it. No one will accept what you say as long as you are poor at communication so I do not see why you push the bible in people's faces all the time because that does not work and is the reason I do not take that approach myself. Meet people where they are at not where you think they should be at. If you can not then you should not be telling people about the Bible.

 

[Old Things]

I think @Old Things that if you are not going to try and understand what I am saying then it must be that you have trouble understanding ideas in the first place. This is a INTP forum where we are trying to communicate differences in ideas and come to some kind of mutual understanding but in your case it might not be possible. If you do not believe humans are made in the image of God and you will not try and explain why humans would be accepted by God then it is clear to me you do not understand the bible as well as you think you do because you cannot communicate it. No one will accept what you say as long as you are poor at communication so I do not see why you push the bible in people's faces all the time because that does not work and is the reason I do not take that approach myself. Meet people where they are at not where you think they should be at. If you can not then you should not be telling people about the Bible.

I have completely stuck to the topic of the things you have discussed. If I have not understood something about your position, then I need you to tell me what I have not understood. But you merely asserting that I have not understood is not going to cut it. Perhaps it is you that is a poor communicator and not me? Perhaps it is you who is given to flights of fancy and tends to go off the deep end of your own understanding rather than actually studying what others have been saying for centuries?

I am well grounded. I do not believe you are. I believe you are very volatile and given to novel ideas when there does not need to be a novel interpretation.

You assert that I do not believe people are made in the Image of God. I have said no such thing. I have disagreed with your own personal view of what it means to be made in the Image of God. This does not mean I do not believe people are made in the Image of God. It means I disagree with your interpretation of what that means. When you cannot even get my own arguments right, it shows that it is you who does not understand and not me.

 

[Black Rose]

If humans are worthless to God then why would God want to save them?

You have not explained why humans are special in that regard.

You have only said they are worthless.

 

[Old Things]

If humans are worthless to God then why would God want to save them?

You have not explained why humans are special in that regard.

You have only said they are worthless.

I have never said humans are worthless. That is you putting a massive spin on what I have said. Humans are valuable BECAUSE they are made in the Image of God. I do not think just because we are made in the Image of God that we are basically good. That does not follow from the idea that humans are made in the Image of God.

My view is that what it means to be made in the Image of God is that we are more or less the pinnacle of God's creation. We are at the top of the hierarchy. That is what it means to me. It does not mean that we are inherently "good." It means we are God's greatest creation. As such, we have the greatest potential for both good and evil compared to all the animal kingdom. That is why Adam named the animals--because he had authority over them. Yes, it implies that humans have better reasoning capacities than any other animal. But what you do not understand is that Adam sinned and as such introduced sin to all of creation (not just humans). That is why God says that the ground is "cursed" because of Adam's sin. Sin affects the whole world, not just humans. But given that humans are God's greatest creation, it means that humans are the most responsible for what they do. And the Bible shows that humanity continually wants to do evil. God restrains the evil that humans do. It is why God judges humanity. It is why God sends revival. It is because humans are responsible for their actions and humans are prone to doing evil. You only need a 30-minute lecture on the history of humanity to see that humans are inherently evil. Wars, greed, selfishness, sexual perversion, profanity, blaspheming, murder, lying, stealing, idolatry, denying the truth, etc. are all examples of how humans screw things up all the time.

So your premise that I think humans are worthless is completely baseless. Humans are very very valuable to God. That is why God sent Jesus to Earth so that humans could be reconciled back to God. Because there is no other way besides that. We cannot will ourselves out of our own depravity. We need Christ to be reconciled back to God because we cannot do it ourselves because we are the ones who screwed it all up. So it is only God who can fix things.

 

[Black Rose]

If humans can reason.

Would it not be the case.

That we can understand what God understands about the mind to an extent?

Do you mean to say that humans can't reason about the mind?

Humans all know what good and bad is.

Humans can deduce that the idea of God exists.

Most Western religious people believe that no one can be connected to God unless they read the bible. that no one can have a personal relationship with God useless they read the bible. That before the bible no one believed in God or spoke to God.

To me that makes no sense.

My niece told me God exists and never read the bible.

How can that be if humans can't understand the mind?

 

[Old Things]

If humans can reason.

Would it not be the case.

That we can understand what God understands about the mind to an extent?

Do you mean to say that humans can't reason about the mind?

Humans all know what good and bad is.

Humans can deduce that the idea of God exists.

Most Western religious people believe that no one can be connected to God unless they read the bible. that no one can have a personal relationship with God useless they read the bible. That before the bible no one believed in God or spoke to God.

To me that makes no sense.

My niece told me God exists and never read the bible.

How can that be if humans can't understand the mind?

Read Romans 1.

"For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. Therefore God delivered them over in the desires of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served what has been created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. For this reason God delivered them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. The men in the same way also left natural relations with women and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error. And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a corrupt mind so that they do what is not right. They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, senseless, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful. Although they know God’s just sentence—that those who practice such things deserve to die—they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them."
(Romans 1:18-32)

 

[Black Rose]

Humans cannot understand the mind?

Why does this thread exist?

 

[Old Things]

Humans cannot understand the mind?

Why does this thread exist?

Would you please stop putting words in my mouth and assuming you know what I am saying when you clearly don't?

Humans have a very limited understanding of the mind. This makes perfect sense since it is impossible for an entity to fully understand itself. Why? Because it would require an intelligence that supersedes the intelligence of the entity to explain the workings of that entity fully. It's common sense. People cannot fully understand the mind because the intelligence of the mind does not supersede the mind itself.

 

[Black Rose]

Humans cannot understand the mind?

Why does this thread exist?

Would you please stop putting words in my mouth and assuming you know what I am saying when you clearly don't?

Then please explain things in ways I can understand.

You are putting less effort into it than I think you could be.

Humans have a very limited understanding of the mind. This makes perfect sense since it is impossible for an entity to fully understand itself. Why? Because it would require an intelligence that supersedes the intelligence of the entity to explain the workings of that entity fully. It's common sense. People cannot fully understand the mind because the intelligence of the mind does not supersede the mind itself.

Many people have spoken to God before and those people never heard of the bible. You assume that no one has and all people rejected God. You assume no one is wise enough to think about the question and seek God outside some kind of place and time period. Wise people become wise because they don't think they know everything. They ask questions and think and reflect on what is true.

I believe that when a person is wise enough they can start to understand the mind to some degree. This is not all or nothing. They do not need to fully understand they just need to begin to think about it. That is the first start. There is no reason to become a black-and-white thinker about this. People in the past did not all turn to evil in all things, some thought hard about why things exist and they sought God just as much as anyone else.

If there is a way to understand the mind then that way would not only be external to the self. A person can, with the right moral character, look inward and understand themselves. People can be humble about not knowing but then they can be wise about understanding what they do know. if a person can be humble they will not be corrupted by looking inside.

-

The reason a person would become a bad person would be because they don't care about themselves. People don't want to think about who they are, if they did then they would be rejected by others they think. So to make sure they are not rejected they refuse to look at themselves. They cannot handle it. They think they are bad and because they think they are bad they don't want to be good to other people. They put the blame on others because they feel flawed.

People think something is wrong with themselves because they were rejected in the past. It is deep inside that person and will not come out so they act the way they act. Hating others is what helps them not feel the pain in a way that would be much much worse. Because if you cannot love yourself then that is because you cannot be loved.

Pain is the reason people act bad. They don't look inside because of pain. Without that pain, they would not hate others. They would not force themselves on others. They would not hurt others. All bad things come from avoiding pain. They don't know what else to do.

Some people cannot look inside, so they only look outside.

They cannot heal themselves and no one is there to help them.

This makes people lash out, it makes people's hearts turn to what alleviates that pain, anger, and depression.

If people cannot help themselves then they decay and they become warped.

Looking inside is the toughest thing to do. It means you have to accept you have pain. And it means you have to accept that no one is to blame for it.

When people realize nothing is wrong with them that is when they change.

That is when the pain is gone, that is when no one can hurt them.

People to become free of pain need to love themselves first.

 

[Old Things]

You assume that no one has and all people rejected God.

Completely false. Many people get revelations of Christ--especially in the Muslim world which is often in the form of a vision or dream. I've said nothing against this line of thinking. What has gotten into your head that you think I do not think God can meet people in whatever situation He wants? It's because in your mind you have this certain conception of who I am and what I am like. The problem is that your presupposition is completely wrong.

There is no reason to become a black-and-white thinker about this.

I am not a black and white thinker. Why do you think I am? Is it because I actually have convictions that more or less align with the common understanding of Christianity? That just means I am an orthodox Christian. And I do have views that are off the beaten path. But only because I feel like there needs to be a creative interpretation for those things because the general understanding has been debated for a long long time. So I try and provide some other thing to consider. The difference is that there are some lines I don't cross when it comes to novel solutions because a novel solution is not necessary and should not even be desired.

The reason a person would become a bad person would be because they don't care about themselves.

Completely wrong. People love themselves too much. They choose their own made-up gender among other things that are completely narcissistic. Selfishness is a reality and in some sense is the core problem of the human race. You can't just reduce all the problems people have in doing wrong things because they don't love themselves. The Bible says explicitly that in the last days, people will be "lovers of themselves." So, no. It is not that people do not love themselves enough. It is a mix of things and some of it is because people have become completely entitled and self-serving rather than focusing on the good they can do in their immediate vicinity. They are given to liberal thought (not necessarily political liberal thought) and think anything goes and everything is permissible not fearing God, having no love in their heart, becoming bitter in service to themselves, and generally not caring about their fellow man. Compassion does not necessarily equate to good being done in all cases. Sometimes compassion is too compassionate and leads to people feeling sympathy for murderers and killers and liars and stealers and all manner of wickedness. One such example is when people were chanting that there were seven victims in a mass shooting when in fact there were only six and they only stated seven to say that the murderer themselves was a victim.

Pain is the reason people act bad.

No, sometimes it is pleasure why people do things that are wrong. Ever met an alcoholic? Ever met a psychopath? Ever heard of a person who killed and tortured people for fun? That is not because they just had this pain. It is because they were a sadistic person who did not care about other people and even got pleasure from hurting people. If you just say that these people did those things because they are hurting, then no one is morally responsible for anything and any kind of punishment is unjust. This is a perversion. Some people are evil. Some people take advantage of others. They think to themselves, "Well, someone is going to do [the bad thing] so I might as well do it and make a profit in the process." That is evil. Greed is an evil based on selfishness, not because they feel pain, but because they are addicted to pleasure of that dopamine hit to their brain when they get more money.

They cannot heal themselves and no one is there to help them.

I agree, which is why Christ had to come and die on our behalf. It is why God offers grace to us. We don't deserve it. If we did, then it would no longer be grace but something we are entitled to. No one is entitled to have Christ, the only innocent person who ever existed, be tortured and killed in our place. That is not something that we "earned." It is something that God offers to us as grace.

Looking inside is the toughest thing to do. It means you have to accept you have pain. And it means you have to accept that no one is to blame for it.

That's just Buddhist nonsense which views everything as pleasure-pain dynamics. Life is more complicated than that. Sometimes people feel neutral emotions. Not everything is about pain. Some things are based on duty, honor, service, love, hope, faith, etc.

When people realize nothing is wrong with them that is when they change.

For the worse. Knowing you have done something wrong is the path to salvation. If you don't believe you have done anything wrong, then you do not think you need to be saved from God's wrath. It diminishes God's holiness and props up the self to an entitled position where we are the arbiters of our own destiny whereby we do not have to answer to God.

 

[birdsnestfern]

 

[Black Rose]

I think @Old Things you have emotional pain, we all do. You are opposed to looking inside yourself to confront that pain. That is why you are so impatient with me, I would like to say that if I offended you please don't take that personally, I am not trying to dismantle your beliefs. I just think that you do not have the ability to look at others' perspectives and can make judgments about people based on preconceived ideas about them without knowing how they truly are. It would not be kind of me to argue any further about what you said because you will take things the wrong way. I only recommend you try and remember what caused you to feel bad about yourself in the first place that required you to try and defend yourself. I know evil people exist but if you want to defeat them you must stop looking at what they are doing and look at what you are doing. Are you doing what they are doing and if so why? I will in the future try not to be like the person you think I am. I don't want to be judgmental like that.

 

[Old Things]

I think @Old Things you have emotional pain, we all do. You are opposed to looking inside yourself to confront that pain. That is why you are so impatient with me, I would like to say that if I offended you please don't take that personally, I am not trying to dismantle your beliefs. I just think that you do not have the ability to look at others' perspectives and can make judgments about people based on preconceived ideas about them without knowing how they truly are. It would not be kind of me to argue any further about what you said because you will take things the wrong way. I only recommend you try and remember what caused you to feel bad about yourself in the first place that required you to try and defend yourself. I know evil people exist but if you want to defeat them you must stop looking at what they are doing and look at what you are doing. Are you doing what they are doing and if so why? I will in the future try not to be like the person you think I am. I don't want to be judgmental like that.

I did not press the issue. You did. Remember this:

Spoiler

mixed with Buddhism

I don't think you know what that is.

Many "Christians" bring it up in the pejorative because they oppose it as something that supposedly competes with their religion. I really don't think you know what it is.

That's nice.

So I am correct, you don't know what it is.

very well then, do you want to know or stay ignorant?

it is not like you appose knowing what is true.

you said you want to know what is true did you not?

I neither confirmed nor denied your statement. I said I don't care.

I neither confirmed no denied your statement. I said I don't care.

Buddhism is the study of consciousness.

The science of the mind.

I think that is relevant to this thread.

Science is unbiased as to what the truth is.

Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the study of consciousness.

You say that as if you are angry. (because of your religion)

Buddhism accepts anything that is true about consciousness.

No one has a monopoly on anything in terms of science.

It is why many schools exist that disagree in Buddhism about what it is.

Christians

I said it as a matter of fact. I am displeased with you saying I am not a real Christian because I do not understand Buddhism. That is insanity.

Then please act like a Christian and don't use Buddhism as a pejorative if you understand what it is. Buddhism is not bad it is simply a science. I hope you don't oppose unbiased science?

There are several things wrong with this. I did not use Buddhism as a pejorative. Science does not say anything: scientists do. And you have already said that there are disagreements within Buddhism. Further, Buddhism is not science. Its main tenet is not to use the scientific method as a matter of inquiry. Further, I don't care. I am more of a Christian than you are and you are being quite annoying.

This is what I mean by ignorance. Christians can be Buddhist because Buddhism is not a matter of doctrine but a matter of finding out what is true about the mind. If Christianity is true then that is fine because the Buddha was only concerned about what it was his mind was doing that made him have the pain he did and what it was that made life the way it was. If he was against science then he would tell people what to believe but he said not to follow anything that a person could not understand themselves. So I think that was not in opposition to science. But before we understood things in the modern ways he wanted to answer certain questions about what the mind was and so he had to look inside himself to find answers to what subjective experience was. It was not the same as empirical looking outward but he was looking inward to know what the mind was. He was unbiased about this but he found that if people do things in a proper manner life is easier. That answered his question when his anxiety went away. I cannot see how that is opposed to science in any way. Many myths exist and many false assumptions exist about Buddhism. And being that most Christians believe them is disheartening.

Whenever I bring up a point you have no answer to, you end up going on some big long rant about me. I'm not a child. I can handle criticism. But it seems like you almost go out of your way to not stay on topic. It is borderline dishonest at this point.

So, no. I am not some sensitive snowflake who needs to be handled just so. You have repeatedly ascribed things to me that I neither am nor what I believe. Further, I am not "hurt." I am peeved at you because you can't seem to stay on topic long enough to acknowledge what I am saying. You just punt the football over in some completely different direction thinking you are making a good point. You're not!

 

[PeopleDoSuck]

Philosophy of a Real Atheist

Sounds like Nihilism mixed with Buddhism.

The author makes a fatal flaw. That is the reality that the closer to Truth you get, the closer to Meaning you get. The two are linked. Otherwise, hope does not exist and is actually evil. Therefore, the only rational thing to do would be to be a mass murderer and then die by suicide.

Maybe, but respectfully, it is the author's perspective, whether you agree or not. Consequently, it's my opinion that your faith blinds you from empathizing with people that disagree or contradict your faith. And that makes it hard or impossible to have a constructive dialogue. There will only be dissonance. So I'm exiting the conversation at this time.

 

[Old Things]

Philosophy of a Real Atheist

Sounds like Nihilism mixed with Buddhism.

The author makes a fatal flaw. That is the reality that the closer to Truth you get, the closer to Meaning you get. The two are linked. Otherwise, hope does not exist and is actually evil. Therefore, the only rational thing to do would be to be a mass murderer and then die by suicide.

Maybe, but respectfully, it is the author's perspective, whether you agree or not. Consequently, it's my opinion that your faith blinds you from empathizing with people that disagree or contradict your faith. And that makes it hard or impossible to have a constructive dialogue. There will only be dissonance. So I'm exiting the conversation at this time.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

[Black Rose]

You are hurt deep down.

You don't understand.

So I cannot help you.

 

[Old Things]

You are hurt deep down.

You don't understand.

So I cannot help you.

 

[Black Rose]

fine, what is it you expect of me?

to be angry and retaliate?

I only ask you to look inside yourself

 

[Old Things]

fine, what is it you expect of me?

to be angry and retaliate?

I only ask you to look inside yourself

I don't have any "expectations" of you. And I'm not going to try and predict what you are going to do next. I take things as they come. I try and be fair. I try not to be so open-minded that my brain falls out. I try to strike a balance between compassion and "tough love," because sometimes that is what people need.

I'm not going to try and control what you do or what you believe. But if you say something I disagree with, I might counter what you are saying. Reason for this is that I should be able to state what I believe as we still live in a (mostly) free society.

 

[Black Rose]

I should be able to state what I believe as we still live in a (mostly) free society.

May I ask then why you fear looking inside yourself?

I believe that by doing so one can understand the mind.

I do it all the time, I get better at it all the time.

 

[Old Things]

I should be able to state what I believe as we still live in a (mostly) free society.

May I ask then why you fear looking inside yourself?

I believe that by doing so one can understand the mind.

I do it all the time, I get better at it all the time.

Again, you assume something of me. This time that I am "afraid."

Have you considered that maybe I function differently than you do?

 

[Black Rose]

I should be able to state what I believe as we still live in a (mostly) free society.

May I ask then why you fear looking inside yourself?

I believe that by doing so one can understand the mind.

I do it all the time, I get better at it all the time.

Again, you assume something of me. This time that I am "afraid."

Have you considered that maybe I function differently than you do?

ok then,

I don't need to make assumptions.

I personally have been able to understand the mind by looking inside myself.

I have been able to heal some emotional pain I had because I looked inside.

I believe that most people cannot do this and act based on the pain they have.

Is what I am doing (looking inside) wrong?

 

[Old Things]

Is what I am doing (looking inside) wrong?

Why are you asking me this?

 

[Black Rose]

Is what I am doing (looking inside) wrong?

Why are you asking me this?

you said it was antithetical to Christianity?

and if it is then that makes me blasphemous in some way?

 

[Old Things]

Is what I am doing (looking inside) wrong?

Why are you asking me this?

you said it was antithetical to Christianity?

and if it is then that makes me blasphemous in some way?

My point was not that it was "antithetical" to Christianity. It was not that it was "blasphemous" either.

My point was that looking inside yourself for answers is an unreliable guide.

Whether you feel you have "healed" from it doesn't mean it is necessarily a good thing. Morphine is a good drug for people who are in pain, but you would not want to give it to a healthy person because they could get addicted and then ruin their life.

I don't need to meditate to feel better about myself. People like to claim that meditation is nothing but good for you. But in a way, it also opens you up to other things.

So you can open Pandora's box and see what demons are inside, but I would advise against it.

 

[ZenRaiden]

OK looking inward you will see what is already there.
By avoiding looking in you are not saving anything.
That said yes, sometimes looking inward can be exhausting and even dangerous, but overall its reasons why people work on these issues.
Its kind of like having a load of shit and ignoring taking a shit, eventually you will have to take a shit, and once you do you feel better.
Meditation is not one method. Its about 121 methods all useful for different things.
We brush our teeth, and use soap.
So why not do the same for brain health.

 

[Old Things]

@Black Rose,

If you are truly trying to understand why I was upset, it is very simple. The reason is that you continue to try and tell me what I believe, what I think, what I do. I do not make claims about other people unless I have a pretty good reason for it. Does that mean I never make mistakes? No. But I do not assume things about other people very often. I have found that assuming things about other people usually ends in a disaster. people are far too varied and different (even in their own thoughts) to completely nail down knowing how a person will respond to you.

So I would please advise you not to assume things about other people and if you have a question about what they believe, then ask them about that specific thing.

And to @PeopleDoSuck, I am very very sorry that I took my anger out on you like that. I think what I said to you first about meaning and truth is true and I think the implication of that is that if meaning and truth are not related that it leads to hopelessness, but I should not have abrazenly posted a YouTube video at you. That was childish and I am sorry.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Facts are interpreted by human brains. Brains have feelings.
Feelings control thinking.

You are T type, so you think thinking is more important than feeling.
Its a classic baseline pitfall of T types.
T people prefer rational over Feelings.
However thoughts and feelings in the human brain are inseparable, because emotions dictate thinking.

 

[Black Rose]

@Black Rose,

If you are truly trying to understand why I was upset, it is very simple. The reason is that you continue to try and tell me what I believe, what I think, what I do. I do not make claims about other people unless I have a pretty good reason for it. Does that mean I never make mistakes? No. But I do not assume things about other people very often. I have found that assuming things about other people usually ends in a disaster. people are far too varied and different (even in their own thoughts) to completely nail down knowing how a person will respond to you.

So I would please advise you not to assume things about other people and if you have a question about what they believe, then ask them about that specific thing.

This is reverse psychology: you are ISTJ and I am INFP which means you will take everything I say the wrong way because in the shadow of MBTI everything you said about me is what you yourself are doing in the view of the other person. Everything you said about me is what you are doing as the shadow. The INFP and the ISTJ will accuse each other of the exact same things.

The problem is every time I do Ne stuff you counter it with Si base knowledge of what you definitively know to be true without considering possibilities. That is why it seems I am making assumptions because how can I not when every time I say something you nock it down. You must be doing so because of reasons xyz and xyz are about your inability to understand Extraverted Intuition. And because I am an Fi user I cannot accept you making things about me personally when you continue to say Ne is my personal belief system, No that would be Si not Ne which I keep separate inside myself.

All this cannot be worked out if you continue to make assumptions about me either.

Because Si is always looking at concrete things and taking it in the wrong way.

Simple fact: Si is about facts and cannot change what they believe whereas Ne can change what they believe. So if I make assumptions they are temporary whereas for you they are peminate.

If you feel that you can change your mind then that's up to you. I cannot change your mind only you can. So then why should I continue to debate you unless you are open to what I am saying?

So far it would be a bad move for me to tell you anything more about my perspectives because 1. you will tell me I am wrong with no justification 2. You need me to prove I am right to your standards which is not going to happen.

The best thing to do is for me to stop talking to you about anything abstract in the extraverted intuition way. Clearly, you don't seem receptive to it at all. INFPs are not the same as ISTJs and their compatibility is at odds with each other.

- I am here on this Forum to talk about what is true not to fight people who are close-minded. I cannot and will not continue this conversation as long as I keep getting shut down. I will not be pushed around like has happened in the rest of my life. You believe what you want to believe, I am not going to try and change you.

 

[Old Things]

Do you know what a responsible person would have done, @Black Rose? They would have admitted what I said and tried to change instead of rationalizing their behavior. Instead, I get this:

All this cannot be worked out if you continue to make assumptions about me either.

What have I assumed about you? Honestly wondering.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Full honesty Christianity is confusing.

 

[Black Rose]

Do you know what a responsible person would have done, @Black Rose? They would have admitted what I said and tried to change instead of rationalizing their behavior. Instead, I get this:

All this cannot be worked out if you continue to make assumptions about me either.

What have I assumed about you? Honestly wondering.

you said that the reason people do not accept my ideas is because they suck

and why should I accept you are responsible and not rationalizing as well?

you again make out that I am the one rationalizing so indeed I was correct that you accuse me what I accuse you of. the shadow of INFP is causing you to do this.

 

[Old Things]

Do you know what a responsible person would have done, @Black Rose? They would have admitted what I said and tried to change instead of rationalizing their behavior. Instead, I get this:

All this cannot be worked out if you continue to make assumptions about me either.

What have I assumed about you? Honestly wondering.

you said that the reason people do not accept my ideas is because they suck

and why should I accept you are responsible and not rationalizing as well?

you again make out that I am the one rationalizing so indeed I was correct that you accuse me what I accuse you of. the shadow of INFP is causing you to do this.

I said if people frequently tell you your ideas don't make sense, then they probably don't. What is the problem with that line of thought?

Because I actually was honest about what I was feeling. You just defer the wrong to me again.

You assume that I am ISTJ. Your whole argument of rationalizing your own behavior and trying to get yourself off the hook completely falls apart if you are wrong about that. And I think you are wrong about that.

You came up with some elaborate theory to get off the hood of taking responsibility for trying to say what I do, I think, I feel, etc. Where do you get off telling me what I think? That's stupidly arrogant. I do not tell other people what they think. You do. That is the difference.

 

[Black Rose]

I said if people frequently tell you your ideas don't make sense, then they probably don't. What is the problem with that line of thought?

I cannot accept that you intended it that way, nowhere have I said anything bad about you.

Because I actually was honest about what I was feeling. You just defer the wrong to me again.

if I was saying you were a bad guy then I would not have wrote what I wrote.

if you can't understand what I wrote then you do not understand what I wrote was not about your morals but about the way you might be thinking, your psychology not your ethical character.

You assume that I am ISTJ. Your whole argument of rationalizing your own behavior and trying to get yourself off the hook completely falls apart if you are wrong about that. And I think you are wrong about that.

ok, but you take everything personally in the way I think an ISTJ would. you believe everything I say is against you because you don't understand Ne. I never made it a point to criticize you in any way, you took it that way.

You came up with some elaborate theory to get off the hood of taking responsibility for trying to say what I do, I think, I feel, etc. Where do you get off telling me what I think? That's stupidly arrogant. I do not tell other people what they think. You do. That is the difference.

my morals are not to make out what I think of people as individuals when I say things about them when I am addressing them, but you make out that I am.

you said I do XYZ and so what I did means I must be saying xyz to hate on you, I am not.

 

[Old Things]

about you.

if you

but you

you said

This is what I am talking about.