Consciousness?

[Old Things]

Where does consciousness come from? And what is my lived experience? Is it just a material phenomenon? Then why can't someone measure your experiences?

In other words, a person cannot actually live another's lived experience, and even to do so would necessarily mean that the person has consciousness themselves which just kicks the can down the road. I don't know exactly and can't really explain it very well.

I am a property dualist. That means that I think that consciousness and the brain are two different things but they are not two different substances. Basically, that means I do not equate consciousness with the brain even though I think the brain is from whence consciousness comes. I do not consider myself a physicalist or naturalist either. I think there are deeper faculties we have that go beyond the physical and first-person perception.

It is also curious that eyewitnesses all record events a bit differently. Does this mean that there are infinite parallel universes where every scenario plays itself out? No. I believe this because 2+2 always equals 4. As such, there is a "core" to reality that cannot change. That leaves the possibility of the supernatural in a precarious position in explaining how certain things happened and why. But if you don't believe in the supernatural you are left with no explanation at all (that we can measure). So at that point, you have to decide if you want to believe that an explanation exists or not. I am much more of a person who tries to find answers rather than leave them a mystery, so I prefer believing that there are beings behind such supernatural events. And we have the testimony of many written works that testify about the miraculous. Now, you can either say there are many different realities all vying for control or you can say you don't know. But what you can't do is say nothing happens that we have no explanation for. Such is the conception of consciousness...

 

[Black Rose]

I recently found out that, trying to look at or listen to, the way the body moves helps me meditate. Because when I do I am paying attention to everything at the same time. I find that I get faster and perceive more. The reason I bring this up is because I have been trying to understand intelligence since the age of 12. This is related to consciousness in that I know what the brain is doing to be aware of its environment and to interact with it.

The body is always in motion, brain cells never stop firing, and metabolism never stops cell energy processes. The function of the brain is to keep us stable. So when thinking, the motion is fluxing back and forth as energy. We do not explode or fall apart because the signals are sent backward to tell us not to. This backward propagation has elements to it that control when to stop and when to go. Too fast it tells us to slow down. To slow it tells us to speed up.

In the cognitive sense. Signals go backward in the brain. This creates predictions that when correct affirm the experiences we have. The outside is going into our eyes and ears and skin. In humans, this level is the same as in animals. At the next level, we have idea generation. In working memory, we hold an idea and then test if the idea is correct or not. "If I do this action then what happens?" This is at first trial and error but it builds with time in layers such as with math where symbols represent higher concepts we begin to move towards more questions about what we don't know.

This is what is happening. Our brains change themselves to meet the expectations of what we experience coming into us. The mechanism is simple and the better our brain can do so the more we can experience and the more intelligence we have. Anything you notice is your brain trying to meet its own expectations. This is true of when we develop as kids and what happens when we think as adults. It is true as to when we feel pain and pleasure. We are changing where the energy goes inside us so that we can stabilize our motions.

The layers of what we have learned come in the simplest form by this algorithm: Look at what you did, were actions meeting the expectations of what happened, if not then change your memories to make sure your expectations are correct next time without erasing what you learned previously in your life.

Consciousness or "self-knowing" happens by directing this process inward. When we expect that we can have expectations of ourselves. When I realize what I am and what I will do under different circumstances it means the body has become the objective of what is being predicted. I know that under what I have written it came from me. I know that it represents what is happening inside me. I wrote it because I know people will respond to it. I know that I know because I am attending to where my attention is going. I can change how fast and slow I move.

At the root of consciousness is self-awareness. That came from my parents looking into my eyes as a baby. As a baby, I became able to guide my body by looking at where others guided me. I then thought deeply about the way things were. I knew that I could move and because I could move I could tell what I would do next. This then is the mechanism of knowing what I will do. Everything that was written above.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I am divided by the whole consciousness thing.
I think it comes down to definitions.
By definition we are aware of way more things than just consciousness. Ergo awareness, so when spiritual people talk about awareness I think they mean something more then mere conscious presence of the now.
It could mean the unified sync of all human faculties of mind and body.

As for supernatural not having explanation is common for most things actually, so there is plenty room for supernatural, albeit Id say more I grow older the more open to it I am.
I just think anything outside of our understanding can be called super natural.
If we talk about baseline of direct experience then yes, most things seem mundane, but with wider field of awareness it comes to variety of things.
For instance Jung considered synchronicity.
There is also archetype stuff, and then there is subconscious and unconscious and flow states.
Id argue there is some sort of overreaching over consciousness that is greater than mere wakeful state.
It has a feeling of eternal, time does not matter to it, it does not care about drama, it does not care about many things, even pain. Its like this over-connected strand of existence that goes cross time space, but that could just be illusion.
None the less I do believe there are things outside of current understanding of humans whether we link that to supernatural or general ignorance.

I mean there is many things we just don't understand about human bodies, and I think the classic medical understanding of human bodies is pedestrian at best. That includes our brains.

 

[Cognisant]

Can you love someone who isn't perfect?

Not if you're an idealistic romantic whose preconception of love is something perfect and divine, because then nothing less than absolute perfection will live up to your expectations.

In Greek mythology Pygmalion became disenchanted with the banal reality of humanity and in his celibacy dedicated himself to sculpting. With these skills he created a magnificent ivory sculpture of his idealized woman and fell in love with it, as much as anyone can love a statue. Eventually came the Aphrodite's festival day and Pygmalion made offerings to the goddess wishing, more or less, for the statue to come to life. This wish was granted and in the end (which is curiously missing on Wikipedia) he rejects her as by becoming real she took on the imperfection of a real woman. In the end she finds someone else who appreciates her and Pygmalion dies bitter and alone. He goes down in history as one of the greatest of fools having rejected a neigh perfect woman on the quibble that she wasn't something impossible for anyone or anything to actually be.

I may have wild dreams of a fantastic future but I don't let that blind me to the present, I don't let perfection become the enemy of good.

Human consciousness isn't perfect or divine, it's flawed and messy, but it's also brilliant and miraculous, not a miracle in that it's some kind of impossible magic but rather that some many improbable things had to converge to make it happen.

The human brain is a supercomputer that uses less power than a lightbulb and is small enough to fit in a soccer ball, if you can't see the miracle of that being real and somehow not magic then you are blind!

It's not inexplicable, nor has it been entirely figured out yet, this is not because it cannot be studied and understood but rather because after decades of study and a great many discoveries we still haven't figured out how deep this proverbial iceberg goes.

Imo if you want to study God then study what God created, what God left for us to study, there's more mystery and wonder in this universe than any one book can contain.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I love what you wrote cognisant.

You kind of reminded me how little we acknowledge of life.

 

[sushi]

Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe?

Philosopher Philip Goff answers questions about “panpsychism”

www.scientificamerican.com

its probably external and our brain only capture parts of it

 

[PeopleDoSuck]

Philosophy of a Real Atheist

 

[Old Things]

Philosophy of a Real Atheist

Sounds like Nihilism mixed with Buddhism.

The author makes a fatal flaw. That is the reality that the closer to Truth you get, the closer to Meaning you get. The two are linked. Otherwise, hope does not exist and is actually evil. Therefore, the only rational thing to do would be to be a mass murderer and then die by suicide.

 

[Black Rose]

mixed with Buddhism

I don't think you know what that is.

Many "Christians" bring it up in the pejorative because they oppose it as something that supposedly competes with their religion. I really don't think you know what it is.

 

[Old Things]

mixed with Buddhism

I don't think you know what that is.

Many "Christians" bring it up in the pejorative because they oppose it as something that supposedly competes with their religion. I really don't think you know what it is.

That's nice.

 

[Black Rose]

mixed with Buddhism

I don't think you know what that is.

Many "Christians" bring it up in the pejorative because they oppose it as something that supposedly competes with their religion. I really don't think you know what it is.

That's nice.

So I am correct, you don't know what it is.

very well then, do you want to know or stay ignorant?

it is not like you appose knowing what is true.

you said you want to know what is true did you not?

 

[Old Things]

mixed with Buddhism

I don't think you know what that is.

Many "Christians" bring it up in the pejorative because they oppose it as something that supposedly competes with their religion. I really don't think you know what it is.

That's nice.

So I am correct, you don't know what it is.

very well then, do you want to know or stay ignorant?

it is not like you appose knowing what is true.

you said you want to know what is true did you not?

I neither confirmed nor denied your statement. I said I don't care.

 

[Black Rose]

I neither confirmed no denied your statement. I said I don't care.

Buddhism is the study of consciousness.

The science of the mind.

I think that is relevant to this thread.

Science is unbiased as to what the truth is.

 

[Old Things]

I neither confirmed no denied your statement. I said I don't care.

Buddhism is the study of consciousness.

The science of the mind.

I think that is relevant to this thread.

Science is unbiased as to what the truth is.

Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the study of consciousness.

 

[Black Rose]

I neither confirmed no denied your statement. I said I don't care.

Buddhism is the study of consciousness.

The science of the mind.

I think that is relevant to this thread.

Science is unbiased as to what the truth is.

Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the study of consciousness.

You say that as if you are angry. (because of your religion)

Buddhism accepts anything that is true about consciousness.

No one has a monopoly on anything in terms of science.

It is why many schools exist that disagree in Buddhism about what it is.

 

[Old Things]

I neither confirmed no denied your statement. I said I don't care.

Buddhism is the study of consciousness.

The science of the mind.

I think that is relevant to this thread.

Science is unbiased as to what the truth is.

Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the study of consciousness.

You say that as if you are angry. (because of your religion)

Buddhism accepts anything that is true about consciousness.

No one has a monopoly on anything in terms of science.

It is why many schools exist that disagree in Buddhism about what it is.

I said it as a matter of fact. I am displeased with you saying I am not a real Christian because I do not understand Buddhism. That is insanity.

 

[Black Rose]

I said it as a matter of fact. I am displeased with you saying I am not a real Christian because I do not understand Buddhism. That is insanity.

Then please act like a Christian and don't use Buddhism as a pejorative if you understand what it is. Buddhism is not bad it is simply a science. I hope you don't oppose unbiased science?

 

[Old Things]

I said it as a matter of fact. I am displeased with you saying I am not a real Christian because I do not understand Buddhism. That is insanity.

Then please act like a Christian and don't use Buddhism as a pejorative if you understand what it is. Buddhism is not bad it is simply a science. I hope you don't oppose unbiased science?

There are several things wrong with this. I did not use Buddhism as a pejorative. Science does not say anything: scientists do. And you have already said that there are disagreements within Buddhism. Further, Buddhism is not science. Its main tenet is not to use the scientific method as a matter of inquiry. Further, I don't care. I am more of a Christian than you are and you are being quite annoying.

 

[Black Rose]

Christians

I said it as a matter of fact. I am displeased with you saying I am not a real Christian because I do not understand Buddhism. That is insanity.

Then please act like a Christian and don't use Buddhism as a pejorative if you understand what it is. Buddhism is not bad it is simply a science. I hope you don't oppose unbiased science?

There are several things wrong with this. I did not use Buddhism as a pejorative. Science does not say anything: scientists do. And you have already said that there are disagreements within Buddhism. Further, Buddhism is not science. Its main tenet is not to use the scientific method as a matter of inquiry. Further, I don't care. I am more of a Christian than you are and you are being quite annoying.

This is what I mean by ignorance. Christians can be Buddhist because Buddhism is not a matter of doctrine but a matter of finding out what is true about the mind. If Christianity is true then that is fine because the Buddha was only concerned about what it was his mind was doing that made him have the pain he did and what it was that made life the way it was. If he was against science then he would tell people what to believe but he said not to follow anything that a person could not understand themselves. So I think that was not in opposition to science. But before we understood things in the modern ways he wanted to answer certain questions about what the mind was and so he had to look inside himself to find answers to what subjective experience was. It was not the same as empirical looking outward but he was looking inward to know what the mind was. He was unbiased about this but he found that if people do things in a proper manner life is easier. That answered his question when his anxiety went away. I cannot see how that is opposed to science in any way. Many myths exist and many false assumptions exist about Buddhism. And being that most Christians believe them is disheartening.

 

[Old Things]

This is what I mean by ignorance. Christians can be Buddhist because Buddhism is not a matter of doctrine but a matter of finding out what is true about the mind.

No. They have contradictory worldviews.

If he was against science then he would tell people what to believe but he said not to follow anything that a person could not understand themselves.

I did not say Buddhism was against science. I said it was not scientific.

But before we understood things in the modern ways he wanted to answer certain questions about what the mind was and so he had to look inside himself to find answers to what subjective experience was.

Which contradicts Biblical teaching.

Many myths exist and many false assumptions exist about Buddhism. And being that most Christians believe them is disheartening.

We don't even know what Buddha's teachings were because at best his life and work are written down 500-800 years after he died. So it is not historically reliable.

 

[ZenRaiden]

We don't even know what Buddha's teachings were because at best his life and work are written down 500-800 years after he died. So it is not historically reliable.

Thats fair. We should treat everything with skepticism and adapt ideas that work for us. Buddhas words btw.

But here is the number one message everyone should know.
We don't need methods and spiritual practices to know about our consciousness.

1) We all have consciousness.
2) We all have access to it
3) We can all study it and learn about it.
4) Prayer is part of spiritual practice.
5) My opinion is Buddhism barely scratches the surface of our understanding of consciousness.

 

[Black Rose]

Which contradicts Biblical teaching.

No one can tell me my personal experience is not my personal experience.

That would be like me telling you that you don't feel love because I don't feel love.

When discussing consciousness we need to understand everyone has different experiences. We are not all the same. Nowhere in the bible does it say otherwise.

Aphantasia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aphantasia (/ˌeɪfænˈteɪʒə/ ay-fan-TAY-zhə, /ˌæfænˈteɪʒə/ a-fan-TAY-zhə) is the inability to create mental imagery.[1]

 

[Old Things]

Which contradicts Biblical teaching.

No one can tell me my personal experience is not my personal experience.

That would be like me telling you that you don't feel love because I don't feel love.

When discussing consciousness we need to understand everyone has different experiences. We are not all the same. Nowhere in the bible does it say otherwise.

Aphantasia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aphantasia (/ˌeɪfænˈteɪʒə/ ay-fan-TAY-zhə, /ˌæfænˈteɪʒə/ a-fan-TAY-zhə) is the inability to create mental imagery.[1]

The Bible says our consciousness (our inner-man) lies to us.

 

[Black Rose]

The Bible says our consciousness (our inner-man) lies to us.

so love is a lie? or what is a lie?

I don't know what you mean by the terms you use?

 

[ZenRaiden]

The Bible says our consciousness (our inner-man) lies to us.

I wanna see the proof in bible of this.
Also please tell me what evidence you have of this.

 

[Black Rose]

Sigmund Freud said the unconscious is where all the shit goes. (all the bad things we want to do)

Carl Jung disagreed which was one of the main reasons he left.

Jung said that dreams and visions happen because good things exist inside us as well.

Freud was ISTJ so maybe he had bad nightmares or something.

Freud warned Jung about not letting the occult get him.

Ni vs Si (?)

 

[Old Things]

The Bible says our consciousness (our inner-man) lies to us.

I wanna see the proof in bible of this.
Also please tell me what evidence you have of this.

One evidence of this is that we do what we do not want to do.

"The heart is more deceitful than anything else,
and incurable—who can understand it?"
(Jeremiah 17:9)

 

[ZenRaiden]

"The heart is more deceitful than anything else,
and incurable—who can understand it?"
(Jeremiah 17:9)

Did Jesus say this?

 

[Black Rose]

@ZenRaiden

oldthings believes only bad things exist in the unconscious as Sigmund Freud did.

 

[Black Rose]

Humans are not purely bad or purely good on the inside or outside.

Some have a healthy unconscious and some do not.

 

[Old Things]

"The heart is more deceitful than anything else,
and incurable—who can understand it?"
(Jeremiah 17:9)

Did Jesus say this?

No, Jerimiah did.

 

[ZenRaiden]

18 Bible verses about God And The Heart

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

OK so I researched it because you made me interested what God or Jesus said about the heart.

I don't honestly know who Jeremiah is talking about, but I doubt the meaning is heart is bad and deceitful.

In fact it seems heart is seems to be center of true value of men.
It almost seems like manipulation to separate a men from heart.

What is the message here, besides hating on heart? I mean what kind of weird logic is that?

 

[Old Things]

18 Bible verses about God And The Heart

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

OK so I researched it because you made me interested what God or Jesus said about the heart.

I don't honestly know who Jeremiah is talking about, but I doubt the meaning is heart is bad and deceitful.

In fact it seems heart is seems to be center of true value of men.
It almost seems like manipulation to separate a men from heart.

What is the message here, besides hating on heart? I mean what kind of weird logic is that?

It's part of the theology of Original Sin. That is the doctrine that humans are inherently evil apart from God's grace. The "apart from God's grace" is important because when a person is regenerated they get a new nature. This is called the circumcision of the heart.

 

[ZenRaiden]

It's part of the theology of Original Sin. That is the doctrine that humans are inherently evil apart from God's grace. The "apart from God's grace" is important because when a person is regenerated they get a new nature. This is called the circumcision of the heart.

OK. So does that automatically mean if you listen to your heart you are somehow doing something wrong? Seems to me like attempt to gaslight people constantly honestly. Doubtful message.

 

[Old Things]

It's part of the theology of Original Sin. That is the doctrine that humans are inherently evil apart from God's grace. The "apart from God's grace" is important because when a person is regenerated they get a new nature. This is called the circumcision of the heart.

OK. So does that automatically mean if you listen to your heart you are somehow doing something wrong? Seems to me like attempt to gaslight people constantly honestly. Doubtful message.

More or less the point is that your thoughts are unreliable. They do not guarantee that what you think is true. That's more or less the narrative about our inner thoughts in the Bible. Does it mean that we can never have a good in our thoughts? No. But the Bible, especially the OT puts more importance on behaviors rather than our thoughts. The NT and Jesus's words tend to speak more of the inner condition of our hearts.

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside of it may also become clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we wouldn’t have taken part with them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors’ sins!”"
(Matthew 23:25-32)

Here, Jesus is speaking of the religious leaders of the time saying they look good on the outside and to others they look like they are good people, but their insides are ugly and depraved.

 

[ZenRaiden]

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside of it may also become clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we wouldn’t have taken part with them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors’ sins!”"
(Matthew 23:25-32)

Sure and this makes sense. Persecution of Christians was hypocritical, because Romans often killed Christians in brutal ways, and therefore Christians were persecuted and hurt by various people.
However where are you getting you should not trust your heart?
If anything heart is not thoughts.
We can agree that thoughts are dumb a lot of times and wrong.
Our minds are wrong all the damn time.
But why are we then talking about hearts?

It sounds like you are equating yourself with persecutors of Christianity.

 

[Old Things]

"“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside of it may also become clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of the bones of the dead and every kind of impurity. In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we wouldn’t have taken part with them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors’ sins!”"
(Matthew 23:25-32)

Sure and this makes sense. Persecution of Christians was hypocritical, because Romans often killed Christians in brutal ways, and therefore Christians were persecuted and hurt by various people.
However where are you getting you should not trust your heart?
If anything heart is not thoughts.
We can agree that thoughts are dumb a lot of times and wrong.
Our minds are wrong all the damn time.
But why are we then talking about hearts?

It sounds like you are equating yourself with persecutors of Christianity.

Heart is not the same meaning in Hebrew and Greek as it is in English. In English it it means, more or less, your emotions or even just the physical heart. It means something quite different in Hebrew. From my book I have coming out, I say this:

In exploring Biblical Anthropology, we delve into Jesus’ words on the Greatest Commandment:

Mark 12:30 ESV:
“‘And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’”

Christ enumerates four aspects of a person: heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Heart

Christ here is quoting this verse:

Deuteronomy 6:5–6 ESV
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all you might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.”

Hebrews 4:12 ESV
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The Tyndale Commentary explains the heart as the seat of the mind, will, and a range of emotions, with the soul representing life and vitality.

The New Bible Dictionary indicates that references to the physical heart are few, reflecting a broader Hebrew perspective on internal organs.

This interpretation shows the heart as a complex and central aspect of human nature, crucial in understanding Biblical Anthropology and the call to love God with our entire being.

 

[ZenRaiden]

OK maybe I misunderstood your quote then.
For what its worth I agree what you wrote in the quotes.
I agree there is much semantic games here.

Personally I think there is mind, and then there is heart.
The union of both is sometimes considered heart mind.
The union of the two is different than them being separate.

If we can agree on this... then I don't quiet understand what Jeremiah means.

 

[Old Things]

OK maybe I misunderstood your quote then.
For what its worth I agree what you wrote in the quotes.
I agree there is much semantic games here.

Personally I think there is mind, and then there is heart.
The union of both is sometimes considered heart mind.
The union of the two is different than them being separate.

If we can agree on this... then I don't quiet understand what Jeremiah means.

Jerimiah is not saying anything different from what Jesus said in Matthew 23:25-32.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Jerimiah is not saying anything different from what Jesus said in Matthew 23:25-32.

Then I see nothing wrong with the message, not a Jesus person, but that just means is that there are people who don't follow the right path.
Amounting to there are people who don't follow true love.

 

[Old Things]

Jerimiah is not saying anything different from what Jesus said in Matthew 23:25-32.

Then I see nothing wrong with the message, not a Jesus person, but that just means is that there are people who don't follow the right path.
Amounting to there are people who don't follow true love.

If there is anything to say about how we might "look inside" to see what is there (as @Black Rose elucidates) it is to see that we are all in the place of the Pharisee. The evil is not "out there somewhere" it is within.

 

[ZenRaiden]

If there is anything to say about how we might "look inside" to see what is there (as @Black Rose elucidates) it is to see that we are all in the place of the Pharisee. The evil is not "out there somewhere" it is within.

True to some degree.
Certainly I operate always on the premise that there is room to improve, learn, be better.

 

[Black Rose]

In the Bible:

Pharisee = a person who believes in the supernatural
Sadducees = a person who does not believe in the supernatural

It has nothing to do with moral character.

What Jesus was saying is that the council had people on it who believed but did not practice their beliefs. In other words, they believed in God but hated God by what they did. They lied to themselves. Which is not the same as the inner self being full of lies. If the inner self had nothing but lies inside it everyone on earth would never find God because no one would be in God image in that case. Gods word is written on the heart so if Gods word is just lies we are all damned. But we have Gods image inside us so what old things says, is as @ZenRaiden makes out, a form of gaslighting. Gods image is not lies so how can humans be pure evil inside? This also says that the body is evil and all things are evil so no matter what, evil exists with nothing to be saved. Nothing in humans can be saved if all inside the humans is only evil. God is inside us to some degree meaning looking inside is a plausible and valid way to make decisions and not anti-biblical. Only if nothing inside us comes from God is this true that looking inside us is anti-biblical. Only if we are not in the image of God as totally evil beings does what old things imply make sense, that looking inside is anti-biblical. By looking inside ourselves we can find God because we are in his image. Once we do we can make a choice to accept the evil or reject it and be good as to what God is. That makes us who we are rejecting or accepting God's image inside us.

 

[Old Things]

In the Bible:

Pharisee = a person who believes in the supernatural
Sadducees = a person who does not believe in the supernatural

It has nothing to do with moral character.

What Jesus was saying is that the council had people on it who believed but did not practice their beliefs. In other words, they believed in God but hated God by what they did. They lied to themselves. Which is not the same as the inner self being full of lies. If the inner self had nothing but lies inside it everyone on earth would never find God because no one would be in God image in that case. Gods word is written on the heart so if Gods word is just lies we are all damned. But we have Gods image inside us so what old things says, is as @ZenRaiden makes out, a form of gaslighting. Gods image is not lies so how can humans be pure evil inside? This also says that the body is evil and all things are evil so no matter what, evil exists with nothing to be saved. Nothing in humans can be saved if all inside the humans is only evil. God is inside us to some degree meaning looking inside is a plausible and valid way to make decisions and not anti-biblical. Only if nothing inside us comes from God is this true that looking inside us is ati-biblical. Only if we are not in the image of God as totally evil beings does what old things make sense, that looking inside is ati-biblical. By looking inside ourselves we can find God because we are in his image. Once we do we can make a choice to accept the evil or reject it and be good as to what God is. That makes us who we are rejecting or accepting God's image inside us.

The problem with your perspective is that it erases the need for Grace and God coming down to save us from ourselves.

 

[Black Rose]

The problem with your perspective is that it erases the need for Grace and God coming down to save us from ourselves.

How?

I am just saying we are not evil to the core.

If the core is evil Grace cannot save us at all.

You believe looking inside us always is bad which makes no sense.

 

[Old Things]

The problem with your perspective is that it erases the need for Grace and God coming down to save us from ourselves.

How?

I am just saying we are not evil to the core.

If the core is evil Grace cannot save us at all.

You believe looking inside us always is bad which makes no sense.

I believe salvation is a miracle. That is why grace is necessary. It turns the heart of stone into a heart of flesh, which cannot be done by ourselves.

 

[sushi]

consciousness is external , thinking is internal imo

 

[Black Rose]

what you are saying is that every human is not only sinful but pure sin itself.

you are saying that humans are sin incarnate, evil incarnate, not God's image

that makes no sense and I cannot see why you would think this.

 

[Old Things]

what you are saying is that every human is not only sinful but pure sin itself.

you are saying that humans are sin incarnate, evil incarnate, not God's image

that makes no sense and I cannot see why you would think this.

 

[Old Things]

@Black Rose,

You think people are inherently good? Then you have never had to wrestle yourself with the wrong you do on a daily basis. I have and I have found that it is impossible for me to be morally perfect. Read Matthew 5-7 and tell me you have not struggled with any of these things and then we will talk.