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Confusion - between a Rock and a Hard Place

Da Blob

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I quoted from this piece earlier in the day. Is is a long post, but it seems to touch on a number of issues that have recently come up for discussion.

The following material is referencing a book titled Paradox In Group Dynamics, written by Kenwyn K Smith and David N. Berg. It is a difficult book to understand, but we have tried to pull out of it some important points dealing with relationships, particularly relationships involving groups of people. The thing to remember is that a group can be as small as just two people and that many of the subjects talked about can be applied to a group made up of just you and one other person. Paradoxes are puzzles that cannot be solved. They are usually the product of people with a lot of time on their hands. A paradox is usually made up of two opposing statements, which separated make sense, but when put together make no sense at all. A simple example of a paradox follows.

The statement written below is true!
The statement written above is false!

It is easy to see in this example that there is no answer to the puzzle of which statement is right, but there are more complicated paradoxes that are not as easy to see through to realize there is no answers to those puzzles. In real life there are no paradoxes, but there are numerous situations that are so puzzling that the word, paradoxical, is probably the best word to describe them. Often these double-bind situations are the ones that bring forth the phrases: Being caught between a rock and a hard place, Damned if you do and damned if you don’t, or Out of the frying pan and into the fire. They create a type of problem that is often described as a ‘vicious cycle’ because a person finds himself or herself confused and mentally going round and round, not able to make a choice or a decision. The phrases – ‘just spinning my wheels’ or ‘being stuck in a rut’ can also be used to describe this frustrating state o f mind.

The word, Or, is used too often to hide some of these situations. For example the statement: you either trust someone Or you don’t - simply is not true. There is a stage of childhood, where in order to make sense of a complicated world, children have to simplify things to see things and think about them, this mental process is called ‘splitting’ or ‘polarizing’ by psychologists. Either Black Or White, Us Or Them, Darkness Or Light, Good Or Bad, Nice Or Mean etc. are examples of this relatively immature way of looking at the world, separating things that are not really separate, but two extremes of the same thing, like the two ends of a yardstick. Disclosing/Hiding, Rejection/Acceptance, Trust/Mistrust, Progress/Regression,
Courage/Cowardice, Me/We, Bound/Free, Dependent/Independent,
Authorizing/Rebelling are a few examples of splitting or polarizing complicated concepts involving relationships.

To know oneself, one may reflect on one's inner experience, but one also needs to know how one is seen by others. This external knowledge can be obtained only through the feedback provided by others. The reactions of others will not be very valuable unless they are in response to parts of ourselves that we care about, and these can be known to others only if we are willing to disclose them. If one never takes any meaningful actions but remains at a level of trivial conversation, the quality of what is reflected back will be at the same level. In addition, feedback from others is self-disclosure on their part. If one is in a group where members will not disclose either their inner responses or their reactions to what others do, think, and feel, then personal and collective learning will be severely limited. Disclosure and feedback are the necessary conditions for the development of interpersonal relationships.

The question that we each must face is what to disclose about ourselves when we are eager to gain acceptance and what we keep hidden. The most natural thing to do is to reveal only those things that we are sure will be accepted and keep private what we anticipate others will reject. Yet this sets in place the inner sense that, when others do accept us, it is all a sham they are not in a position to reject the "real me" because I have kept it hidden. If others were to know "what I am really like," if I let them see the ugly parts of me that are unacceptable even to me (which is, after all, why I keep them locked away inside), then they would reject me. Thus, the acceptance I gain is unacceptable to me, because it is not based on the parts of me that I "know" are unacceptable. I set myself up to believe those who are accepting me as being unacceptable, paradoxically rejecting the very source from which I crave acceptance when I am given the acceptance I seek. Of course, were I able to accept myself, with all my flaws, acceptance by others would be less important to me, and hence I would be less prone to reject the acceptance that I’m offered.

In this vicious cycle, it can be seen that acceptance and rejection are integrally linked. For our discussion here, the key issue is what happens when the place from which acceptance is being sought is a group made up of individuals all engaging in processes such as the above. The answer is that all find themselves rejecting the group that accepts them, creating a feeling about the group as a whole that it is like quicksand. It is only when the group breaks out of this trap by itself by rejecting the members who are treating it this way that individuals begin to feel that the acceptance is at all authentic. The expression of the group's rejecting side paradoxically enables individuals to feel more secure about letting their rejectable sides be known, which in turn sets up the possibility that the rejectable can be tolerated by the group, making the acceptance that is offered feel more real. Of particular interest to us are those things known to self that one might wish to keep hidden. The desire to hide is often stirred by the fear of being rejected by others. The fear that others will be rejecting may emerge from the parts of self that are rejecting. Fearing our own rejecting sides, we suspect that this is a potent feature of others, and so we work hard to gain assurances that others will not reject as a precondition for our own disclosure. No matter what assurances are given, the proof remains uncertain until the disclosure is attempted.

Once group members start to engage in the dynamics found in the paradoxical disclosure, they encounter those of trust. Group life is filled with dilemmas in which one needs to trust others but the development of trust depends on trust already existing. Before we are willing to trust others, we want to know how they will respond to us, not just at the level of acceptance or rejection but with respect to our weak parts as well as our strong ones, our fears as well as our hopes, our ugliness as well as our beauty. In order to discover how others will respond, someone in a group must be willing to expose his or her weak, fearful, and ugly sides. The willingness to do this depends on the trust in the group.
Paradoxical trust may be symbolized by the puzzle of a cycle that depends upon itself to get started. The problem of developing trust has often been represented by the prisoner's dilemma "game." In this "game," the sentences oftwo isolated prisoners depend on their respective stories about a crime that they allegedly committed. Most versions of the game have the following flavor: If neither prisoner implicates the other, both are set free. If both prisoners blame each other, they both receive long prison terms. If both accept some responsibility for the crime, they receive moderate sentences. If one prisoner accepts some responsibility for the crime and the other blames the first, the first receives a long prison term and the second goes free! The "game" is created because neither prisoner knows the rules at the outset but each gets repeated opportunities to "tell a story" and is told the consequences after each story; that is, the length of the prison term. The paradoxical nature of this game lies in how it begins. The prisoners begin with a two-pronged struggle over trust-trust in the jailor, who is inherently untrustworthy from the prisoners' perspective, and trust in the fellow prisoner. The concern over the other prisoner is whether she or he will opt for self-interest over their joint interests. This is an issue for each inmate, because the structure of the situation requires each to consider the option of looking after self at the expense of the other. The concern about the jailor is focused on whether she or he will.(1) abide by the rules of the game, (2) not alter the rules in response to prisoners' choices, and (3) accurately and reliably transmit information about the choices of the other prisoner. Trusting that this will occur, the prisoner acts and in turn finds out whether that trust was founded. Of course, the smart prisoner makes an initial test of the waters, not risking too much until there is confirmation that the trust being expressed will be honored. One can imagine an exchange between a prisoner and a jailor that goes as follows: "I want you to do such and such!" "Why should I?" "Because it will be good for you." "Y’all mean good for you, don't you?" "Well, of course, it will be good for me, that goes without saying. But it will be good for you, too!" "How can I be sure of that?" "You can't! The only way to find out will be by doing it!" The power of the prisoner-jailor example is that, in a state of distrust, the way to gain the necessary knowledge to make trust possible is by trusting.

When individuals join a group that is either formed or is forming, they are approaching experiences that are unfamiliar. They attempt to create some structure for thinking and acting that will enable them to manage the joining process. The available structures that an individual can draw upon come from his, or her personal history. Each person will bring into this new joining process an approach (or set of approaches) from past encounters and will use this as a guide for managing the unfamiliarity of the new group. At a surface level, the ease with which this joining takes place will depend in large part on how similar the present situation is to past experiences and how accurately the individual decides what overlaps with the past and what is new. If the overlap is small but the individual fails to recognize this, then a great deal is being transferred into this new encounter from past experiences. It might be said that they are bring too much baggage with them. If the overlap is large, the baggage is less evident.
Consider, for example, a person going to a country that he or she has never been to before. He or she takes along the map that previous explorers created and refined across numerous visits. Most of the sites encountered appear on the map, and this is a comfort. Only when the traveler runs into things that are not on the map is it suddenly clear how much he or she depends on what has been on the old map from the past to deal with a strange, new place. In addition, the discovery that the map is not perfect serves as a reason for the traveler to pay more attention to what is in front of him or her at the moment. Had the map been a very bad one and this had been found out earlier, he or she might have noticed more during the trip, because it was necessary to pay attention to keep from getting lost.
A similar process is at work, in group experiences. Whatever the case, be the overlap small or large, a transference is occurring that can be seen as treating the present as though it were the past, so that members can move quickly through the uncertainty of the present toward a more certain future. This transfer process involves an individual's return to an older type of operating in order to deal with the present, a dynamic called Regression. Paradoxically, individuals eager to do something new, or Progress, need to be able to engage in this regression in order to separate which experiences are merely history, from those which are happening in the here and now.

The dynamics involved with the themes of disclosure, trust, and regression deal with a side of life that is hidden. These interconnected paradoxicals come into play when individuals can’t make up their minds about how much and in what forms to interact with others or a group as a whole. At the same time, the group is sorting out for itself how to manage the various ways members engage with it or remain detached from it. To engage others in a group, members must explore what they hide from others and maybe even themselves, as well as what is kept hidden from them. This means that the process of interaction is operating on many different levels that lie beneath the surface of what is seen in the behaviors of groups and their members in their mutual attempts to connect.
These paradoxicals suggest that when certain aspects of shared life are actively engaged in, other parts of life are put into a hidden arena, where the process of interaction continues in a manner not readily seen by those involved. The polarities of acceptance or rejection, trust or mistrust, and progression or regression are not as separate and unconnected as they are often experienced. By allowing these polarities to coexist, members and groups paradoxically can progress while regressing, create acceptance out of rejection, and develop trustworthiness in the midst of mistrust.
There can be no group unless people belong to it. What does belonging to a group mean? The paradoxicals that follow all involve the issue of membership. What are the conflicting and often contradictory emotions aroused by the fact of belonging? For individuals and for the group as a whole, the joining process is a continuous one. \What must the individual give up in order to belong, and does this change as the group changes? How does a group come to determine what individuals can and cannot bring into the group except through the "in-puts" of its members?
What does it mean to be "in"?
Paradoxical identity is the link between individual identity and group identity. Which one comes first? Which one determines the other? Which gives way before the other? Which must be settled and stable before the other can be known? These questions seek to break apart the confusing circularity of the paradoxical identity. Belonging calls for exploring the relationship between involvement and detachment, observation and experience. Are these separate and distinct aspects of belonging to a group? Can there be involvement without withdrawal, or do the two come from a common source of what it means to belong?
The existence of group requires connections among its members. There is nothing to belong to if no such connections exist. The connections are founded on similarities, if the group is founded only similarities, then what becomes of the individual’s talents? The group cannot come into existence as a psychologically meaningful unit unless individuals are able to express their individuality, their differences, so that connections can be found. Again, the vicious circle is both apparent and unsettling, and again we search for that which links the individual and the group.

Paradoxical boundaries leave us where we began. The fundamental question of belonging is the question of,” belonging to what?”. How do we know what the group is? A group must exist before the question of membership can be considered. Boundaries define, what the group is, and yet they also define what it is not. They simultaneously give meaning to belonging and to not belonging, Paradoxically, the boundary around the group enables, even forces group members to confront the emotions around both belonging and not - with what they are going to have to give up in order to belong. Norms are informal ground rules that provide guidelines, concerning appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a group. They are implicitly understood by members and are the foundation beneath behavior in and of the group. In many ways, the "character" of a group can be seen in its norms. If the norms are very loose and easily adjusted from one situation to the next, the group may have a somewhat ‘free’ identity. If they are very strict, the group may be seen as "uptight."
When there is conflict between how an individual wishes to act and how the norms prescribe that he or she "should" behave, the pressure is invariably on the individual to change and adapt to the group. "If you want the benefits of belonging to this group, you had better learn how to fit in." Group members are rarely able to say to the deviating individual, "we are grateful for your deviance, because it helps to loosen up our norms, makes tolerable a wider array of behaviors, and in the long run will make us a better group, because we will be much better able to adapt to our world." The group's response to deviance is usually to keep it in check, use it as an indicator of what is not acceptable, or reject the individual(s) expressing the deviant side of the group. Since the deviance seems counter to the group's norms, the group is unable to see that its very norms created the deviancy. The deviancy is informing the group about aspects of its nature of which it would prefer to remain ignorant. If the group sees the deviancy not as an expression of itself but instead as a characteristic of the individual who is expressing it, norms can’t change to grow with members as they mature.
These heroic actions of resisting group norms often dominate our conceptions of the development of individuality in a group and contribute significantly to members' holding back until they have determined whether the group is to be supported or fought. This withholding, in turn, creates the very kind of group that leads members to take either a heroic or an antiheroic posture when confronted with the fear of a repressive group or a dangerous renegade.
The paradoxical perspective emphasizes that the group exists, grows, and becomes strong and resourceful only if the individuality of its members can be expressed. Both the differences that come as expressions of individuality and the similarities, expressed as connectedness, simultaneously jeopardize and strengthen the group. In like manner, the similarities and the differences both support and threaten the individuality of group members. The expression of differences risks individual disconnection and collective disintegration while providing the possibility of connection based on personally meaningful commonalities. Similarly, the connections risk the stagnancy of conformity and the rebellious exit of individual members. The paradoxical struggle is again within the individual and within the group, to live with the tensions that emanate from the group's dependency on the individuality of its member and the individual's dependency on the common cause of the group.

The concept of boundaries has been important in social science theories for a long time, at the group level, in general systems theory and, at the individual level, in the object- relations work of the psychoanalytical school and the cognitive theories of Piaget. In each tradition, Maturing is understood in boundary-drawing terms (for example, learning to distinguish between breast and self, me and not me, and so on). Once boundaries have been drawn, the possibility of relationship emerges. Without boundary, there can be no relationship. For example, only as the infant builds a sense of a self that is distinct from mother can it develop a relationship with mother. 'Without boundaries, there is fusion. In this regard, boundaries are at the base of everything in life. For a group to have a sense of itself as an entity capable of acting as a whole, it must have clear external boundaries. For the group to develop an internal sense of itself, it must be able to see multiple possibilities for the arrangement of its internal parts. This requires the drawing of distinctions between the parts.

One cannot talk about groups without implicitly invoking the concept of boundaries. There are boundaries in groups that explicitly indicate who belongs and who does not. The importance of boundaries is most visible in the experiences of those who have not been given adequate boundaries. Experiencing the constraints of boundaries gives one the chance to work out how one is going to deal with them. This is evident in the experiences of those who expect to be rejected or held accountable but are not. In a junior high youth club, every adult leader knows that kids expend a great deal of energy testing limits (boundaries). Ganging up and behaving "counterproductively" are often so much fun for this age group, especially since they feel constrained in how much of this they can do at school or at home. In a way, the youth club is a forum where steam can be let off. If, however, the leadership refuses to define and hold clear boundaries for the group, it takes away a lot of the fun for the kids; more important, it deprives them of the necessary lessons that can be learned only by encountering the limits and then dealing with them. For this reason, the testing of the authority figure does not necessarily mean that the kids want the authority to change his or her behavior; rather, it may mean that they want the experience of testing the authority figure. This cannot be done if the boundaries are inadequately drawn or if they "give" each time a kid bangs in to them. Even boundaries that may seem cruel are more helpful developmentally than those not drawn.
One of the most critical functions that a group's boundaries provide is being a type of container for the anxieties carried by individual members as a consequence of their group membership. If members are constantly put in the position of having to bear alone the anxiety of group membership, then the group will always be an overwhelming place. It is in the group', interest to provide a way for its members to deal with the reactions that the group generates in them

Paradoxical boundaries simultaneously make it possible for a group to take actions and at the same time, limit those actions by what the boundaries define. For example, when a group's boundaries are drawn such that it is defined as management, the fulfilling of the management function becomes possible but the option of being labor is taken away. This paradox of simultaneous possibility and limitation is most evident in the boundary delineation associated with labeling. In human consciousness, the only way for us to think is via the symbols that we use to influence changes the group, how much change do we want how much can we tolerate, and how much do we want to feel responsible for? Ultimately, one of the ways influence is attempted and realized in groups is through members speaking or not speaking to each other. Speaking or not speaking, being or not being, and acting or not acting are all forms of influence in a group and may become sources of conflicting and often contradictory reactions for individuals and the group as a whole, depending on how the associated messages are bounded.
When the direction of the group is at stake, the relationship between opposing forces gets lost in the process of choosing between them. Sometimes it is the group that seems to stand in opposition to one or more of its members. At other times, two internal subgroups for example, the powerful and the powerless seem to stand in opposition to each other. In either case, the meaning contained in the relationship between the opposites is obscured, and the "whole," the group, is crippled by its inability to attend to the connections as well as the distinctions.
One of the most critical developmental processes of a group is the creation of an authority system. Usually authority is thought of as something that flows down from above: a boss derives authority from those higher - up. The authority invested in a person can be understood as the outcome of an authorizing process. If we focus on the dynamics of authorizing rather than on the authority itself, it is clear that authority is something that is built or created. It flows from many places to many people.
Professors derive authority from the university, and students accept this as part of obtaining a degree; the judge in a courtroom derives authority from the relevant branch of government, and those who participate in the judicial process accept this because of the socially authorized sanctioned powers of the court.
In a group, members can authorize an individual to enact certain things on their behalf. The members' willingness to accept the activities undertaken by the authorized individual as an expression of the parts of themselves that they have given over actively creates authority in the group. The acceptance makes it possible for those with authority to be effective in representing group members' collective interests. The process of authorizing creates the conditions in which individual contributions can have an influence on the work of the group and the group can be influential in the larger system to which it belongs. In this regard, authority is closely linked to empowerment. One develops power as one empowers others. Taking the power that is available and using it often creates a vacuum, because it is experienced as depriving others of a scarce commodity. As a result, power taking is resisted. Individuals often refuse to accept or exercise the power that is available to them in a group simply to avoid the accusation of having stolen it from someone else or having gained it at others' expense. Paradoxical authority starts with the link between authorizing others and authorizing oneself and explores the paradoxical nature of resistance to authority, one's own and that of other group members. It is through a mutual authorization process that groups have the potential to be greater than the sum of their parts, and the management of resistance is a key to this process. Resistance or rebellion is also authority and acceptance involves resistance. The link between these two "opposite" phenomena is the heart of the paradoxical authority. Yet the very avoidance of taking and using the available power makes individuals in a group, and ultimately the group as a whole, feel powerless. The feelings of powerlessness create an even greater wish for power, making it even harder for anyone to seize it, because the feeling of deprivation is correspondingly larger, and the resistance grows. On the other hand, if one takes the available power and uses it to empower others, then total amount of group and individual power increases.

In the human life cycle, growth involves the development of a good measure of independence. However, in most ways: our strivings for independence are closely linked to the development of new dependencies. We vigorously attempt to break away from our families of origin, so that we can create families of our own. In the severing and transformation of one set of dependencies, we become free to create new dependencies, upon spouses, upon our own children, upon networks created or chosen by us. Paradoxically, the work of becoming independent actually involves giving expression to many of our dependencies. In groups, we observe behavior that, on the surface, can be described as dependent, counterdependent, or independent. Although these concepts are usually defined as nonoverlapping, there are strong connections among them. If, for example, we are dealing with dependency, the other two forms (counterdependence and independence) may well be active at the same time. While a group member's refusal to accept guidance from a leader may express some degree of independence, it may at the same time be a counterdependent denial of the leader's authority, a denial that unwittingly gives that authority more power than would be the case if some degree of dependency were acknowledged. In many ways, the counterdependent individual is as much imprisoned by the dynamics of dependency as someone who accepts the leader's guidance without question.
It is clear that a group can function only if members are able to depend on each other. It is ultimately the mutual dependency that makes the group a group. To deny this dependency or to try to make it into something other than what it is retards the group's capacity to come together as a whole. The metaphor for paradoxical dependency is ecological. For any part of a system to be able to act independently, it must accept its dependency on the other parts with which it together makes up a whole. If we examine group behavior, it is very noticeable that the times when a member seems most troubled by feelings of dependency are when those who are being depended on are asked to be something that they are not or when they are perceived as untrustworthy. In both cases, the desire of the individual member to be independent is very strong. If one is independent, it is much less important to trust others, or so it seems. The dilemma is that the condition of extreme independence creates its own vulnerability. What happens when the "independent" person needs something that can be obtained only from a group? Then the independence sought after and created to compensate for the "untrustworthiness" of the world of others makes the individual's need for trust even greater than it would have been had independence not been so strongly pursued in the first place.
Paradoxical Courage and Cowardice are two extremes of the willingness (or not) to risk loss or pain by action. All growth involves risks. Without taking the risk of falling, a baby could never learn to walk. The problem is that there are no actions that are courageous in themselves. The very same actions could be motivated by courage, could also be motivated by stupidity, impulsiveness, self - destructive tendencies or cowardice itself. How many heroes have faced one fear to do something courageous, simply because they did not want to face a greater fear, perhaps even the fear of being called a coward? The process of taking risks involves identifying all that that could be lost and weighing that against all that that could be gained. How can be an action be called courageous if the individual did not think of all that was at stake, everything that could be lost and chose to take the risk anyway. By the same standard, is it fair to label a person a coward simply because by his or her estimation the reward was not worth the risk. Often, it is simply smart not to take unnecessary risks to earn little or no reward.
 

Artifice Orisit

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You should write a book about this & sell it.

Much of what you have written relates to aspects of Absurdisum, in fact these paradoxes are seen by nihilists as proof that life/existence lacks meaning.

What do the terms "hope" & "faith" mean to you, please share with me your definition.
This will help me understand where you are conceptually.
 

Da Blob

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Unfortunately, our existence is framed by
a symmetry of Pain and Pleasure.
We refer to the Pleasure of the Future
- as Hope
and we refer to the Pain of the Future
- as Fear.
Faith is the word used to describe that symmetry
in the reality
that is not Here and not Now...
 
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Artifice Orisit

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Hope: A noun used to describe the counter concept of any negative reasoning that is the result of fuzzy logic. The negative reasoning being a hypothesis that conflicts with the ideals of the person who has developed that hypothesis. The counter concept is the less likely but yet to be invalidated hypothesis that fundamentally conflicts with the primary negative hypothesis.
This positive hypothesis, what we would call hope, is the irrational yet un-invalidated concept that is supported by the person's ideals in a self strengthening, self delusional cycle. In this way the concept "hope" is a means of self motivating a person in spite of superior logical adversity.
To put it simply hope is a self sustained delusion that serves to motivate a being to follow its ideals/goals with disregard for logical reasoning.

Faith: A verb used to describe the act of practicing the concept of hope although often misinterpreted as a quantifiable measure of one's motivation to sustain hope. For example having faith in something suggests the person in question has hope in its existence and/or processes. Common usage of the word has also given the added implication that faith implies a form of hope that is stronger than regular hope, a more developed self delusion.

The purpose of these definitions is not to imply that because hope & faith are practices of self delusion that therefore god isn't real (such would be a poorly constructed argument). What I imply is that by logical definition the god theory is the less likely true when compared to other theories that have more than just faith & hope supporting them. This is just one of my many reasons for becoming an atheist, of course I’ve come a long way since then, please read on.

Now the reason I'm attacking the god theory is that it is the sole supporter of there being any form of universally preordained meaning to life. Please note now that my focus is not on the concept that, life can have meaning, merely that there is no inherent meaning to life.
Of course this path of theory leads to the rather depressing concepts of nihilism which as a result can turn people to blind faith in attempt to avoid the cold feeling that comes with being a nihilist. However there is another path we can take from here, absurdism; although in many ways becoming an absurdist is effectively going insane.

So having mostly established that life has no inherent meaning, a most depressing concept & a most liberating one, for it implies freedom. Without the restrictions imposed upon us by there being an inherent life meaning we are free to choose our own without consequence. From a purely objective perspective there are no restrictions and if one’s wishes to experience life from a more subjective perspective they can choose whatever restrictions they wish to impose upon themselves.

True freedom is somewhat scary isn’t it?
But you don’t have to be free if you don’t want to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdist
Most absurdists seem to forget the positive aspects of this POV, but here's the link anyway.
 

Da Blob

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It is a good thing you requested that I explain the manner in which I use the symbols/words Hope and Faith. We could have argued for a long time, with both being right...
I do not see faith as a verb, but rather a noun describing a structure for perceiving Time.
I check out the link and then get back with you.

BTW the problem with Rationality is that there is no provision for the Super-rational, which has to be categorized with the sub-rational on the other side of the boundary that separates the rational from the irrational

EDIT I have no 'theory of God' - a theoretical God really would not be of much practical use...
 

Anling

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Da Blob, I think that is the longest post I have ever read. It was very interesting though. Group dynamics are messy.
 

Da Blob

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Da Blob, I think that is the longest post I have ever read. It was very interesting though. Group dynamics are messy.

Not only are they messy, they are usually messed up as well. It is difficult to get get a bunch of people to invest in a state of "We'ness for any length of time. Plus none of the standardized group roles are much fun.

I'm glad you read it all I knew it was a very long post but I did not know who needed what from it, so i just left it all there...
 

Artifice Orisit

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Which is more important?
1. Self actualising one's own identity.
2. Having friends who really, honestly care.

I'd like to write a story that contrasts the pros & cons of being a group member to being a "loner". The values of independence vs. co-dependence.
 

Da Blob

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Which is more important?
1. Self actualising one's own identity.
2. Having friends who really, honestly care.

I'd like to write a story that contrasts the pros & cons of being a group member to being a "loner". The values of independence vs. co-dependence.

Maslow's original study that led to the concept of "Self-actualization" is actually quite interesting - It would be nice if we we could find out the proportion of the 'great' people he interviewed who were INTPians.

The challenge of self-actualization is not in the singular self, but rather in the plural sense of Self. When 'We' become self-actualized as opposed to merely I/me becoming so, amazing things can happen. Of course, it is a sad indicator of the current state of Humanity that such 'team-actualizations' are so rare...

The perennial question is of course, can you actually become self-actualized without friendship, or do each of us need a 'little' support every now and then "To Be All 'We' Can Be"?
 

Artifice Orisit

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...I thought the term self-actualization referred to the realisation of one's own identity, a concept similar to sentience.

I think, therefore I am, who I think I am.
A self sustaining conceptual loop that can become the foundation which one's mind is built upon. Of course that would imply that a mind that isn't self-actualized is simply a cognitive device running off inbuilt instructions and unproven assumptions.
 

Da Blob

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...I thought the term self-actualization referred to the realisation of one's own identity, a concept similar to sentience.

I think, therefore I am, who I think I am.
A self sustaining conceptual loop that can become the foundation which one's mind is built upon. Of course that would imply that a mind that isn't self-actualized is simply a cognitive device running off inbuilt instructions and unproven assumptions.

I do not know, there may be some different definition that is a derivative of the original use of the term. Abraham Maslow set out to find out what made a genius a genius. He came up with a list of traits that the famous and gifted people, he interviewed, had in common, Basically the term self-actualized referred to those who had those traits .. I'll see if Wiki or another source has more. But it is (or was) a very specific list...

The hierarchy of needs is kind of a watered down version of that first study. Maslow actually did a lot of other stuff, he wrote a little book the Philosophy of Science which is one of my favorites...
 

Artifice Orisit

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Sounds like a good book; I'm currently reading "Elementary Lessons in Logic" by Stanley Jevons, it is very detailed guide to the value of reasoning and how the cognitive processes of logic work. Very much INTP material.

Anyway, the point I was getting at before came from my personal studies into AI theory and defining the definition between cognitive processes and an actual mind. The difference between a self analysing program that adapts itself and an introspective human mind that performs the same function.

My reasoning was that a human mind knows that it is a human mind (is self aware) and as such can subvert its own logic (hope, faith, etc). Of course people already do this, but as I mentioned before this is due to a conflict between reasoning and values (values = human heuristics).
Therefore to attain true sentience a human must determine what their values are (identity = values) and by doing so gain the ability to subvert them (self-actualization).

So by becoming self-actualised a person gains complete control over their identity.
They become an internally consistent entity.

I’m enjoying this immensely.
 

Da Blob

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Actually there is quite a range of so-called minds that have been labeled, Human minds, simply because a Human is using that type of mind. Best analogy is Dog food. It is called dog food, if a dog eats it, which again covers a wide range of possibilities.
Very few humans have ever been truly Sentient, perhaps one in ten thousand or one in a million depending on what boundaries are defined to determine sentience. We are not encouraged to be sentient (for one reason or another)
Cognitive development is an area where the educational industry does not even attempt to address for how can the blind lead the blind?

That what's Maslow was attempting to do, he went searching for sentient human beings and I believe he only found 113 throughout all of human history...
 

Da Blob

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...are we sentient?

Define 'We'
I have been sentient on occasions, sporadically. I have flashes of genius, but most of the time I'm your run-of-the-mill-Dumbass, relying on my Reptilian mind to get me thru the day, by simply responding and re-acting, a creature of Habit....
 

Artifice Orisit

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And you call yourself a counsellor :D

What about a personal affirmation statement, the whole idea of which is to create an identity for oneself which if role-played for a significant period becomes one's identity. It occurs to me that being "sentient" can only be achieved in short bursts as the human brain lacks the capacity for detailed introversion whilst operating in a real-world environment for any sustained length of time.

Or perhaps I just need to make an absolute discission about my "self".
Who am I?

...This has inspired an idea for a story,
A story about an AI that wishes to gain whatever indefinite cognitive element that makes humans, human, and thus better than machines. But by then end of the story the AI discovers that by becoming truly sentient it has surpassed the cognitive level of regular humans and that "indefinite cognitive element" it had been striving for was just prejudice from human egos whishing to remain "special".

I once debated with a priest the concept of AI; he said that for machines to be anything more than machines they would need a soul. To which I suggested that maybe the creation of AI is effectively the creation of a soul and that possibly it is humanity’s destiny to reach a godlike existence.
Hence forth I was removed from Sunday school, and my crusade began.

Edit: How is your faith at the moment?
 

Da Blob

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I'm off the clock, I can be the real cynical Me once more.

Humans will never be able to define humaness to any significant degree. We lack perspective. We can't get out of the box that defines humanity - to step away far enough to see the entire dimensions of that box. It takes an A. I. like you suggest, an alien of a superior intellect Or 'Dare We Say' our creator to provide a truly Objective definition of Identity and Self. Although everyone wants to know the answer to that question, "Who Am I?" There have been many cults, philosophical fads and even a few religions that purport to provide that answer, However...
 

Da Blob

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"However..."? Don't leave me hanging.
Hmmm you're INTP, you know we don't finish sentences when the rest is obvious. However, ...
none have succeeded

because it is something that has to be discovered on one's own.

Children are so damned believing and so many are totally ruined by believing the wrong things about themselves simply because someone they trusted told them so...
Things like "you're stupid'; "You will never amount to anything"; " You're just like your father, a real loser" etc and etc. Of course, almost as much damage is caused by telling children that they have abilities that they simply lack and never will have...
 

Artifice Orisit

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Like telepathy? Damn you mother!
<That was a joke>

Well I agree with everything you just said... now what.
Have you got any particular topic you want to discuss?
 

Da Blob

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Like telepathy? Damn you mother!
<That was a joke>

Well I agree with everything you just said... now what.
Have you got any particular topic you want to discuss?

Not at the moment. I still have to do some research to reply to your first comments on this thread and try to come up with a novel way to rework some photos of Mount Everest for a friend who went there and took lots and lots of pictures of mountains - I sick of seeing mountains. I even think I saw Sapphire Harp's avatar in one of the ones I am working on....
 

Artifice Orisit

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Fair enough, thank you for a most enjoyable discussion.
*Bows and departs*
 

Da Blob

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Fair enough, thank you for a most enjoyable discussion.
*Bows and departs*

If you get bored in my absence you could always look up some old posts of mine and call me out on them(?), once I awaken, that is...
nitey, nite
Sweet dreams
 

Da Blob

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Da Blob

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Sorry this is a Work-in-Progress that may never be finished, but all the puzzle pieces are here - even if not pre-assembled for the reader...

What I described as paradoxicals are only marginally connected to the Paradoxes of philosophy, rather it was an attempt to discuss the formation of a single defined Attitude as a scale of polar opposites, that although different words are used to describe these extremes, neither could exist without the other, just as the North Pole could not exist without the South Pole of a magnetic field...

The paradox is really the pathos of intellectual life and just as only great souls are exposed to passions it is only the great thinker who is exposed to what I call paradoxes, which are nothing else than grandiose thoughts in embryo.
Take away paradox from the thinker and you have a professor.
Soren Kierkegaard, The First Absurdist


Hope: A noun used to describe the counter concept of any negative reasoning that is the result of fuzzy logic. The negative reasoning being a hypothesis that conflicts with the ideals of the person who has developed that hypothesis. The counter concept is the less likely but yet to be invalidated hypothesis that fundamentally conflicts with the primary negative hypothesis.
This positive hypothesis, what we would call hope, is the irrational yet un-invalidated concept that is supported by the person's ideals in a self strengthening, self delusional cycle. In this way the concept "hope" is a means of self motivating a person in spite of superior logical adversity.
To put it simply hope is a self sustained delusion that serves to motivate a being to follow its ideals/goals with disregard for logical reasoning
.

I LIKE MY DEFINITION BETTER. IT IS RELATIVELY SIMPLE AND OF GREATER UTILITY. HOPE IS ANTIPATED PLEASURE AND IS NOT A FUTILE NOUN, BUT RATHER A VERB AS IN “I HAVE REASON TO HOPE’ (A NICE SHORT AMBIGUIOUS STATEMENT…)

Faith: A verb used to describe the act of practicing the concept of hope although often misinterpreted as a quantifiable measure of one's motivation to sustain hope. For example having faith in something suggests the person in question has hope in its existence and/or processes. Common usage of the word has also given the added implication that faith implies a form of hope that is stronger than regular hope, a more developed self delusion.

Faith is the highest passion in a human being.
Many in every generation may not come that far,
but none comes further.
Soren Kierkegaard, The Absurdist


FATH IS A NOUN THAT DESCRIBES OUR SIXTH SENSE -THE PERCEPTION OF TIME. THIS DEFINITION FROM THE BOOK OF HEBREWS IS VALID ‘NOW FAITH IS THE SUBTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.’
WHERE IS THE PROFIT IN THINKING LIKE THIS? IT IS QUITE RATIONAL TO ANTICIPATE BOTH PAIN AND PLEASURE. THE DEGREE THAT EITHER FEAR OR HOPE CAN BE CONSIDERED DELUSIONAL IS A CALL THAT SHOULD BE MADE BY A PSYCHOLOGIST ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS, NOT A CALL MADE BY A PHILOSOPHER MAKING A GENERALIZATION ABOUT THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.
HOPE, FEAR, BELIEF AND FAITH ARE COGNITIVE CONSTRUCTS THAT ARE UTILIZED BY EVERYONE, ALL THE TIME. TO ATTEMPT TO LIMIT THESE CONCEPTS TO THE REALMS OF THE ‘MERELY RELIGIOUS’ IS NOT A VALID ASSUMPTION.


Personality is only ripe
when a man has made the truth his own.
Face the facts of being what you are,
for that is what changes what you are.
Be that self which one truly is.
The truth is a snare: you cannot have it,
without being caught.
You cannot have the truth
in such a way that you catch it,
but only in such a way that it catches you.
Soren Kierkegaard




The purpose of these definitions is not to imply
that because hope & faith are practices
of self delusion that therefore god isn't real
(such would be a poorly constructed argument).
What I imply is that by logical definition
the god theory is the less likely true
when compared to other theories that have more
than just faith & hope supporting them.
This is just one of my many reasons
for becoming an atheist, of course
I’ve come a long way since then, please read on.

Now the reason I'm attacking the god theory
is that it is the sole supporter of there being any
form of universally preordained meaning to life.
Please note now that my focus is not on the concept that,
life can (not) have meaning,
merely that there is no inherent meaning to life.
Of course this path of theory leads to
the rather depressing concepts of nihilism
which as a result can turn people to blind faith
in attempt to avoid the cold feeling
that comes with being a nihilist.
However there is another path we can take from here,
absurdism; although in many ways becoming
an absurdist is effectively going insane.

So having mostly established that
life has no inherent meaning,
a most depressing concept & a most liberating one,
for it implies freedom.
Without the restrictions imposed upon us
by there being an inherent life meaning
we are free to choose our own without consequence.
From a purely objective perspective
there are no restrictions
and if one’s wishes to experience life
from a more subjective perspective
they can choose whatever restrictions
they wish to impose upon themselves.
True freedom is somewhat scary isn’t it?
But you don’t have to be free if you don’t want to be
.


Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.


Once you label me you negate me.
How absurd men are!
They never use the liberties they have,
they demand those they do not have.
They have freedom of thought,
they demand freedom of speech.

Just as in earthly life lovers long
for the moment when they are
able to breathe forth their love
for each other, to let their souls
blend in a soft whisper, so
the mystic longs for the moment
when in prayer he can, as it were,
creep into God.
If I am capable of grasping God objectively,
I do not (need to) believe,
but precisely because I cannot
do this I must believe.
man who as a physical being
is always turned toward the outside,
thinking that his happiness lies outside him,
finally turns inward and discovers
that the source is within him.
It is so hard to believe
because it is so hard to obey.
Soren Kierkegaard



We do have Purpose and Meaning in our lives,
because we do have Utility.
One of the worst insults is to say of a person
“I have absolutely no use for that person”.
The problem being, that if
the meaning and purpose for our lives
can only be measured by the various
and sundry ‘uses’ Others
have for us
that Meaning and Purpose is often
so degrading and dehumanizing,
that we reject that purpose
as an illusion and seek,
philosophically and through other means
to find a Higher, a Better purpose,
a reason to Keep on Living.
One has to believe in the primacy
of the Absurd,
One has to have a sense of Humor about it.
Using both the generic and
the philosophical definitions of
the symbol/word, Absurd.
 

Artifice Orisit

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...it occurs to me that English has its limits.

e.g. The word "respect"
-Admiration for another
-Cautious trepidation, even fear
-Willingness to show civility to another

Likewise the words "hope" & "faith" can be used in multiple contexts with multiple interpretations. I agree that my terminology was far to broad, although in the context of this conversation such occurrences are difficult to avoid.

Your use of "Soren Kierkegaard" quotes to back up your arguments is quite enjoyable, after all dare I go against the thoughts of the first absurdist? Of course, I'm an INTP aren’t I?
If anything the fact that he was the first makes him the mostly likely absurdist in all of history to be wrong. Assuming of course there are later historical absurdist’s who became historical figures by revising the concepts of absurdism.

Also I must note a favourite phrase of mine.
"quoting is the lowest form of wit"
The justification being that quoting only requires the quoter to parrot something he/she has heard; whilst sarcasm involves stating the inverse of any given statement in an attempt to highlight a logical flaw within it.
e.g.
Statement: Honesty is always the best policy.
Inverse: Any policy that isn't the best is dishonest.

Of course the inverse isn't said in such a robotic manner, after all a parody is the objective. Also people who just restate the statement with only change of tone are just idiots who don’t really understand sarcasm, to whom which the saying “Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit” is justifiably directed.

I'll need to read the above post again and think about it before I can refute it in earnest.
 

Da Blob

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AH! I am cut to the quick!
Speaking of Respect, Why don't you re-Spect my post?
There is more to it than meets the eye.
I spent some time laying an elaborate trap, a puzzle..
There is a method to the Madness!
(once again, maniacal laughter is heard fading into the distance...)


I beg to differ with you on the utility of quotes.
They are useful instruments,
one simply has to learn how to play them properly.
The interesting thing about the "Truth"
is that it is redundant, being 'real'
whereas, falsehoods are rarely repeated
being fashioned for the occasion in the first place.

I used to gloat about my talent for finding wonderful and marvelous
revelations all by my little bitty Self.
However, Time and Time again
I discovered that "MY" discovery had already been talked about
by some 'F'ing Greek 2500 years ago or some other historical figure.

So any time I come up with a marvelous idea
I check and see who has already had that same idea
and then I quote that person...
So the question of who is the parrot/puppet
is relevant in my case...
 

Artifice Orisit

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Don't fret I'm still studying it.
A trap? A puzzle? What a wonderful gift.

The interesting thing about the "Truth"
is that it is redundant, being 'real'

Classic INTP

whereas, falsehoods are rarely repeated
being fashioned for the occasion in the first place.

I wouldn't say "rarely", but yes I agree

I used to gloat about my talent for finding wonderful and marvelous
revelations all by my little bitty Self.
However, Time and Time again
I discovered that "MY" discovery had already been talked about
by some 'F'ing Greek 2500 years ago or some other historical figure.

Was that a subtle hint to make me realise I'm just an 18 years old boy who should refocus he energies on something more practical? Or just an emo rant about the fact that people have been living and dying for thousands of years; as such nothing we think about is truly unique. That the entire human race is composed of children who will never live long enough to truly understand the nature of their own realities?

I want to yell my fury at god for playing this sick game; except there is nothing there for me to yell at, just a silly little idea, like the spirits making the trees dance.

So any time I come up with a marvelous idea
I check and see who has already had that same idea
and then I quote that person...
So the question of who is the parrot/puppet
is relevant in my case...

But by quoting you assume their exact words are correct; if you dare not question the words of some long dead guy who never used a toilet, who can you question?
Do we not owe it to those long dead Greeks to pick up their torch and run with it, and not just stand there admiring how far it has come? If anything I encouraged along my philosophical journey by hearing their words of agreement; it's like their ghosts have reached across time through the magic of the written word to cheer me on. Not as a reason to stop and lament that I can't be the mystical "first" to walk this cognitive path.

Edit: Have you been drinking? You seem less, professional tonight.
Which is not always a bad thing.
 

Da Blob

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No one has accused me of being Subtle in a long time...
Thank You!

Do you think that perhaps that you have a monopoly
on such fury?
Wait until you have Doubled your age and then Tripled your age.
You will then be as old as I am Now.

Now imagine trying to live with Triple the Fury and Triple the Rage...

If I can't get the credit for "My" ideas, the why Should I shoulder the Blame...?

Carry their torch?, hell, I resent the bastards
Why weren't we taught this stuff in school?
I would not be so disappointed if someone
had educated me correctly and I did not have
to educate myself is such a haphazard way...

And you had to bring up those Damned Trees as well
Sitting there, pretending to be immobile
and then using the slightest excuse of a zephyr
to dance in the Air! They don't have me fooled...

But I digress

No I haven't been drinking, but unbeknownst to many
I actually have a well developed if somewhat warped
sense of humor...
 

Artifice Orisit

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Your 54? That would explain the afro; nice beard by the way.

I may not be as old as you, but non-existence is a much more recent memory for me... well you know what I mean. I'm still not taking my life for granted, like a "normal" person.

If I can't get the credit for "My" ideas, the why Should I shoulder the Blame...?
Touché

I draw a distinction between the ancient Greeks and modern teachers... so I share your resentment of the educational system; yet another motivation to assist the machine revolution.

It's odd that I have more empathy for machines than humans, but as people entrust more and more parental duties to machines this is only set to continue. What will generation Z say when we try explain to them that their machines are disposable; then how will they view us when we are old and weak. To me transhumanism is a matter of life and death, more so than to the regular transhumanist who wants to cheat death.
 

Da Blob

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The issue of trust has again been raised on another thread, I really should start a thread just on trusting, but I keep 'forgetting' to do so - in the meantime there is a bit about trust in this existing thread...
 

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I wonder where did Maslow found the help to find these 113 people, in the premise that they are rare and are not often in the spotlight viewed by the masses…. These things the specific people possessed, as sentient, what could be measured and how?

I saw a place to buy some of his books and download video etc. from abraham maslow....

But maybe you know when he was doing these searches for specific people, or where he wrote about it :)? thanks in advance

Blob, you read about the term 'peak-states' that are also used in this article?: the article is not really what i was looking for.. but eh..

http://www.sentienttimes.com/04/june_july_04/print_consciousness.html

i just been googling... while i kinda have these amazing mindstates for a while at a time, it seems to atleast be an effect from an influence... but it's impossible to reproduce it seems.
 

Da Blob

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A good thread for some of the newer people in the community to read - perhaps?
 

BigApplePi

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A paradox is usually made up of two opposing statements, which separated make sense, but when put together make no sense at all. A simple example of a paradox follows.

The statement written below is true!
The statement written above is false!
If this is resolved below, I missed it.

A paradox exists when we haven't found the source of the contradiction. I would assume contradictions in the external world don't exist.

It is true each of those two statements are statements. Statements about other statements are a different kind of truth. We cannot compare concepts which exist at different levels even if they appear to have a lot in common. Worse than apples and oranges.

Level N - statements
Level N-1 - statements about fish
Level N-1 - statements about statements
Level N-2 - statements about statements about statements
 

Da Blob

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If this is resolved below, I missed it.

A paradox exists when we haven't found the source of the contradiction. I would assume contradictions in the external world don't exist.

It is true each of those two statements are statements. Statements about other statements are a different kind of truth. We cannot compare concepts which exist at different levels even if they appear to have a lot in common. Worse than apples and oranges.

Level N - statements
Level N-1 - statements about fish
Level N-1 - statements about statements
Level N-2 - statements about statements about statements

I guess that would depend on one's definition of contradiction. I mean the Hegelian Synthesis could be seen as the compromise of contradictions....

However, contradictions certainly exist in the human imagination, if not the 'real' world. In fact, the model I submitted in the OP is based upon contradictions of one form or another. The contradiction is a relationship, a space between two seemingly valid things, that seems to invalidate one or both of those things. referring to the Fuzzy Logic of Language, a contradiction can be seen as a Preposition and indeed, how could the example above/below be viewed as a paradox without the prepositions, above and below included?

The statement written below is true!
The statement written above is false!
 

BigApplePi

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I guess that would depend on one's definition of contradiction.
Yes. If two views are polarized, one view contradicts the other. We can't have both at exactly the same time. As long as they are separate, a viewing causes them to appear as contradictory.
I mean the Hegelian Synthesis could be seen as the compromise of contradictions....
If we have a thesis and a polarizing anti-thesis, we could see a synthesis as a merging of the two. What kind of merging? An emergent merging. Something new. Is there an example which is a compromise instead of an emergence?
However, contradictions certainly exist in the human imagination, if not the 'real' world. In fact, the model I submitted in the OP is based upon contradictions of one form or another. The contradiction is a relationship, a space between [BAP's bold] two seemingly valid things, that seems to invalidate one or both of those things. referring to the Fuzzy Logic of Language, a contradiction can be seen as a Preposition and indeed, how could the example above/below be viewed as a paradox without the prepositions, above and below included?
The statement written below is true!
The statement written above is false!
Another statement: I'm lying.

Is this statement true or false? If I'm lying, I must be telling the truth. If I'm telling the truth, I must be lying. Is there a Preposition here? You may mean pre-position? The pre-position is that I can make statements about statements as well as their contents at the same time. A statement is NOT the same as its contents. "This is a lion" is false. It is an English sentence instead, not a lion.
 

Da Blob

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Yes. If two views are polarized, one view contradicts the other. We can't have both at exactly the same time. As long as they are separate, a viewing causes them to appear as contradictory.

I wonder if the case could be made that perceived difference is inherently contradiction?
However, I am aware of a trap. There is a stage of cognitive development where the human brain is not mature enough to encompass adult concepts. This stage, identified by Jean Piaget as Concrete Operations, is identified by polarities and absolutes. It seems that in order to mentally 'focus' on a 'minor' difference, that difference has to be exaggerated and made to seem like a polar opposite from that from which it differs...


If we have a thesis and a polarizing anti-thesis, we could see a synthesis as a merging of the two. What kind of merging? An emergent merging. Something new. Is there an example which is a compromise instead of an emergence?

An interesting question, particularly in the context of the examples of the paradoxes of group dynamic listed in the OP. I do not have a ready answer, perhaps it depends on whether 'growth' occurs, I think that a compromise maintains the status quo to a certain degree, but that an "emergent merging" (nice new phrase -BTW) indicates growth away from that status quo...
Another statement: I'm lying.

Is this statement true or false? If I'm lying, I must be telling the truth. If I'm telling the truth, I must be lying. Is there a Preposition here? You may mean pre-position? The pre-position is that I can make statements about statements as well as their contents at the same time. A statement is NOT the same as its contents. "This is a lion" is false. It is an English sentence instead, not a lion.

I do not know... Are you using the word, or, as a Boolean Operator or as a conjunction?

Might I point out that the statement "I am lying" is incomplete, without context and therefore meaningless? To ascribe meaning/definition to an incomplete thing is illogical...

It is ironic that human language makes no differentiation between the true and the false, particularly in the case of the language of mathematics, which is somehow believed to be a purer language. i suppose the only language that exalts the truth over falsehood is the language of the Machine, the computer etc.
 

Zmaster

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I could have used this 6 months ago before I asked a person at work if they would teach me Yoga. Instead she thought I was hitting on her and started a HR investigation. But then again I probably would not have attempted to find this forum if I didn't fear the lack of self identity caused by not knowning the rules ( a Paradox in itself!!!)
 
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