confidence, courage, risk, identity

[loveofreason]

and failure.


When overcoming a fear of putting your skills out there for criticism, what does it take to get you over the hurdle?

Is it finally feeling the inner confidence that you'll succeed, or is it having the courage to do it regardless?

Is your approach linked to your attitude to failure? ie. does failure represent an identity-crushing disaster (therefore making any effort high risk) or is your sense of self more independent from any negative consequences of trying?

Put another way: to what extent is your personal self invested in your actions or products, and how does this influence your approach to creativity/expression?

(Thanks eudemonia for stirring up these questions.)

 

[eudemonia]

Thanks for starting this thread Lor.

I think for me there has to be an energy or vision behind any risk-taking activity that involves a potential threat to my sense of competence. I have to be taking the risk for a reason which is bigger and more inspiring than simply earning money.

I am prevaricating on something right now because I don't feel I have the energy to cope if it doesn't work out. I do feel that in a sense part of my identity will be damaged if I fail. I will have to readjust how I think about myself. So I am putting it off. And because it is not part of a broader vision I have for my life the benefits do not seem to outweigh the risks.

We all have an array of needs, but psychologists have pared down a few needs that seem particularly important for us: love, meaning, control (predictability, certainty), consistency (ie maintaining a sense of identity) and competence. Whenever these are endangered we become particularly vulnerable.

So in another area of my life I am prepared to take more risks because I know that my sense of purpose and meaning will be enhanced if I succeed, but funnily enough I don't feel my sense of competence is on the line if I fail. This is because I will rationalise the failure in terms of 'it's all part of the risk you take for a higher cause'.

I have noticed however, that I am much more prepared to take risks when selling or promoting someone else; I hate having to 'sell' myself and am a lot more risk averse in this context.

 

[Ogion]

I am not entirely sure i got the topic right with my answer but we'll see.

When faced with a challenge or task (like a paper to write for a course) or the prospect of facing this task in the future i mostly just don't think about it. I mean, I hardly prepare myself. I wait for the moment to come and in it i just give my best (or just enough) to do it. Afterwards i can calmly see if i succeeded or not. If i succeeded everything is fine. If i didn't, well it just shows that i was not competent (or awake) enough. But this doesn't start a self doubting crisis. I just take it as it is and maybe decide that the next time i face that or similar challenges i should be a little better prepared.
I think one thing which is related with that is my general interest in nearly everything. By learning as much as i have time from many topics i prepare myself in general for possible tasks in the future. So often i can use some information i collected while randomingly browsing through the internet, which other persons call useless when opposed to 'concentrated learning of specific topics'.
This means that my yearning for learning (in general and about many topics) is part of a preparation for life. Being in the here and now i think i may at some time use this information or should know something about that.
And so i think i have a good confidence in my 'method' and my general attitude to tasks, risks or similar is: Let it come and i will see how i will 'pass'.

Was this similar to what you intended?

Ogion

 

[NoID10ts]

I have to have a combination of accountability and passion. If I don't have accountability, like someone relying on the project, I won't finish it in all likelihood. Once I do have someone relying on me to finish, I must become passionate enough about it to be consumed with it and press on regardless of what anyone thinks. It also helps to keep the end result in mind, without concern for the reaction to the end result.

I have done this many times, particularly with art, but it can be very painful when it is not received well, and it can be very discouraging for future reference. But if successful, it can be exhilarating. I guess it is a double edged sword.

A few years ago a I came up with a design for a huge mural at my church that would be at the front of the sanctuary behind the choir. The staff loved the idea and a friend of mine (a far superior artist) and I painted it up there in a weeks time. I had one section of the mural and he had the other. They were two different murals that portrayed the same event. We were really proud of it and the church was very receptive at first, but little by little they started asking me to change things and correct things they didn't like. It really crushed me, in time, and now I absolutely hate it (my part at least).

I have had similar things happen on a smaller scale since then and now I don't think I will ever do anything artistic again (at least not for anyone else). It's just too painful. I'm thinking of trying my hand and writing, but that will probably end in tears.

You never really know until you try. I try to remember that not everyone has to like it, if at least some people like it.

I'm probably no help at all. Sorry.

 

[loveofreason]

Helpful perspectives, both.

Do you apply courage in your preparations? Thinking of major things particularly, like giving life a go as an artist or choosing to pursue a certain career, take on a project?

Like NoID10Ts, if no one but me is measuring what I do, it is no real crisis to not complete. But if someone else has expectations...

all the what ifs arise. What if I'm not good enough? What if I can't finish it? What if I can't deliver what is expected? What if my work is rejected?

And even before it gets that far - if I really enjoy doing something and it's a source of joy, how will that change if I treat it as a 'job' instead?

If my identity relies on the freedom of expression created by pleasing just myself, how would that be compromised by becoming subject to the judgment of a master that determines if I am given the money with which to live. I could be denied the means of subsistence if the one with the purse-strings doesn't like my work. Somehow this translates into my identity feeling crushed.

It's late. This a just a morass of disparate thoughts. I'm probably not making sense.

 

[FusionKnight]

I have done this many times, particularly with art, but it can be very painful when it is not received well, and it can be very discouraging for future reference. But if successful, it can be exhilarating. I guess it is a double edged sword.

I have had similar things happen on a smaller scale since then and now I don't think I will ever do anything artistic again (at least not for anyone else). It's just too painful. I'm thinking of trying my hand and writing, but that will probably end in tears.

I think this is very true of artistic endeavors, at least in my experience. Art, for me, is such a personal thing; it's the closest I come to ever revealing my "true" self to the world. Since my art is so "me" it tends to be unique, a bit odd, and not really understood by other people. That's fine, but when others experience my art and reject it or try to modify it, it's very difficult not to internalize the criticism, and be deeply wounded by it.

Besides art, the part of my life I've had the most experience with risk and failure was in college, and immediately after college. I'm bright, verging on polymath, more aware than the general population, quick to learn, etc. (like most INTPs I'm sure), but the prevailing American formal education system is like a forging dye, trying to smash me into a shape I don't want to be, and don't really value.

This created a huge handicap for me during college. When inspired, A's were no problem and the grade was usually just an afterthought for me (if I thought of it at all). When bored or frustrated though, I would find attendance intolerable, and even the thought of expending energy on the class paralyzing.

As a result, I had 3 very bad semesters, and failed a number of classes. I was almost expelled twice, but by God's grace I was given more chances than I deserved, and went on to complete my college career with A's and B's.

After I graduated, I was thrilled to finally be done with school so I could get out into the "real" world and leave all that stupid "educational indoctrination" behind me. I got a job at a smallish manufacturing company as a design engineer, and started working.

It didn't take me too long to learn what there was to learn, but I soon realized that something in my just wasn't being valued or satisfied by my job. They wanted "doers" not "understanders", and this, in combination with the project from hell, eventually led them to firing me. I was never given a reason why, but it was a relief. At least it saved me the angst of having to quit.

I bring this up because I think failure can be a very important thing to experience. I have tasted failure, and it's given me a stronger faith in God for one thing (I know when the bottom drops out from under me, God is still there), and it's freed me to take more risk. I'm not as afraid of failure anymore.

Also, my whole experience with failure really drove me into self-analyzation which eventually led me to discover INTP and it's implications. Without failure, I would have had no need to reevaluate myself, or to try and better understand myself and the systems in which I find myself. I am currently a much happier person having lived through failure, even though it was one of the most painful and despairing times in my life.

 

[FusionKnight]

Sorry for the double-post. I guess I should comment on identity as well.

With school and work both, my identity was heavily invested in success. In college, I had the expectations of parents, wanting to make them proud, wanting others to think I was smart, wanting to think I was smart, wanting to be able to find a good career afterwards, etc. In my first job, my masculinity was at risk; At the time I was the primary bread-winner in our family as I was supporting my wife through medical school. I felt like I would be so much less in her eyes if I failed here. Also, my parents and her parents, wanting to prove myself to my father, and make him proud, and to make her father proud that his daughter was married to me.

Identity was huge in both of those failures, but what I learned through it all was that I didn't really know what my identity was, and so I had thrown it behind the most obvious things in my life: school, work, parents, wife.

 

[ElectricWizard]

Couldn't you use the edit button, since nobody else had posted yet?
I will now attempt to read through all of this.

 

[FusionKnight]

Couldn't you use the edit button, since nobody else had posted yet?
I will now attempt to read through all of this.

I could, but maybe some people read the first post before I posted the second post? Then they'd miss out!

 

[ElectricWizard]

Yes, they failed to read it in time. We could then observe their reactions.

 

[Jennywocky]

Aw, gee, everyone shares so profoundly, and here I am supposed to doing my work so I can't invest much right now as I'd like.

A few paltry pennies here: There is a pattern of fear in my family. I recently realized and accepted that both of my parents are cowards (in their own way)... and that I experienced anxiety over much of my life because in many ways I was also a coward.

Much of the reason I did not succeed at things when younger (or at least learn the right lessons) was because I was anxious about failure and rejection (which failure is, sort of -- a rejection of whatever I was offering/creating as not as good as someone else's work).

So I ended up not persevering in many areas, including music/composition, and writing, and whatever else... because I took failure as inevitable and so hesitated to try over and over until I had "made" it or died trying.

I think it is hard to risk failure when so much of one's identity is tied up in whatever one is trying to accomplish. To fail is like death, literally -- death of who you thought you were. What do you do after you fail, if you identified so strongly with your dreams?

I think nothing changed for me until I had to risk everything I had to make certain decisions in my life -- without knowing the outcome ahead of time. (I also felt like I had no other choice, so I was backed in the corner.)

If it's "be brave" or die, then you either get brave or, well, you die.

So you find out if you're someone who would rather die (in order to "avoid overt failure") ... or if you're someone who is willing to be seen as a failure if necessary while retaining your life and having the chance to try again. You find out if you are truly brave.

Once you've risked everything a few times because you believe in what you're doing, and that belief is bigger than your anxiety, then it gets easier to put yourself out there again in the future.

(I consider this process to be "death to self." You have to die to your unrealistic view of yourself, the Ideal Self as Karen Horney and others called it, and allow your Real/Fallible Self to live. Otherwise your Ideal Self -- the one you wish you could be but never really can -- will murder your Real Self.)

 

[FusionKnight]

I think it is hard to risk failure when so much of one's identity is tied up in whatever one is trying to accomplish. To fail is like death, literally -- death of who you thought you were. What do you do after you fail, if you identified so strongly with your dreams?

If it's "be brave" or die, then you either get brave or, well, you die.

(I consider this process to be "death to self." You have to die to your unrealistic view of yourself, the Ideal Self as Karen Horney and others called it, and allow your Real/Fallible Self to live. Otherwise your Ideal Self -- the one you wish you could be but never really can -- will murder your Real Self.)

Two really good points.

When I was younger, from as early as I can remember until college, I wanted to be an astronaut. I was deadly serious about it. I read space shuttle manuals, learned astronomy and cosmology, studied physics... all the things I thought I'd need.

When I went through my season of failure, my dreams of being an astronaut had completely disintegrated into sad little pieces in my lap. That I wanted to be an astronaut, and that I was serious about it, was in great measure my identity. It was what made me different than the other kids. It made me special. It destined me for "great" things.

When this dream died, a part of me, or maybe a version of me, also died. I'm still struggling to understand that death, and exploring what remains of it after my "rebirth".

This whole experience forced me to look death (of identity, personality, worth) in the face and wrestle with it. Years later, that would still aches, and I still feel the hole where that dream once lived. I don't know if I'll ever be able to "accept" it, or if someday it will be resurrected.

I think true self-knowledge requires death; death of the mask, of the facade, of the roles we play... all that needs to die so we can see our true face... in some ways that face is more beautiful than we can stand; in other ways it's the most hideous abomination we will ever see...

 

[Ogion]

Hm, perhaps i have to correct my previous post a little bit. What i said there is valid for normal, daily things like exams in university, or like recently i made my drivers license or anything else similar. these things of course have some importance, but it is limited. You see, if i had failed my drivers license exam (do you call it that way? Ok, my dictionary calls it driving test) it would be uncomfortable, i would have to pay more money and such. But it wouldn't be all that terrible and life crushing, obviously.
Another thing are all the long-term things. When i think about my future, one thing about which i am quite unsure is my financial future. Now in university i have to take credits/loans and will have some amouont of debt when finishing. But since i have really no idea what i will do in five or ten years, i have no idea if i will be able to pay that debt back. I have no idea how or even if i will earn my money. And there of course do come doubts and fear of failure. I mean, just looking at my work mentality (the non-existent one ) i seem to have a grim future. Then again, i say to myself, i am an intelligent, educated person who did well so far and is normally good when it is required. And most people (who, if i may be a little bit arrogant, are a litle bit more stupid than me ) do have their income and somewhat adequate living. This can't be so hard, can it?

So it seems i have my fear of failure too. Especially the failure resulting of being unable to marry my individuality with society to have my place. Sometimes this results in a little rebeldom in me. I then think about actively breaking with society and become a dropout with his little farm in the wild, like some hermit. Then again i picture the things i would have to abandon (mainly the internet, books, computer... ).
And oftenly in times in which i think about that i calm myself by saying: It will be alright. Let it come and i deal with it underway.

Hope that was intelligible.
Ogion

 

[Waterstiller]

When overcoming a fear of putting your skills out there for criticism, what does it take to get you over the hurdle?

I was thinking about this in-depth last night. I feel as though my skills are never really complete, and so to put them out there I'd always be putting them out prematurely. This is also the source of my procrastination; when in school I'd always wait until the last second to choose a stance on a paper and then just spill out out in a couple hours. How can someone pick a single view? I think this is where having deadlines helped me - I had to do something and whatever came out was something that I wasn't entirely dedicated to. If I ever do anything it's only because I have to.

Is it finally feeling the inner confidence that you'll succeed, or is it having the courage to do it regardless?


Is your approach linked to your attitude to failure? ie. does failure represent an identity-crushing disaster (therefore making any effort high risk) or is your sense of self more independent from any negative consequences of trying?

For me, I don't really know what it means to succeed; I've only ever had the vague goal of doing what I've had to. Failure to me is that succeeding is pointless, and not the fact that I fail at anything I try. Unfortunately, I always come back to any action I do ultimately being pointless!

I know I can succeed at anything, but really for me it's a matter of finding the motivation. To act on something I have to find the courage to do it despite the fear that success doesn't really matter. That said, I'm trying to live life actively instead of passively, and what I've learned is that to put anything out there it's some sort of mixture of the two.

To do this, I need to create games for myself whenever I do anything. When I create a game for a situation (writing a paper, making music, figuring out how to communicate with someone) it takes the entire point out of it. Anything I do becomes fun and exciting when I create some parameters to work within.

Put another way: to what extent is your personal self invested in your actions or products, and how does this influence your approach to creativity/expression?

I have to detach somewhat to get anything done. I value truth, and since truth is something that I'm ever inching forward, I am never happy with my present work. I'm embarrassed and feel guilty whenever I listen to music I've created.

I found a solution, however. Has anyone here ever heard of Crap Art? It's something that I stumbled upon about a month ago, and one of the reasons I was looking into personality type so seriously. The person behind Crap art and specifically "Album-A-Day" is INTP, which I found out by listening to one of his songs, simply titled "INTP". While I'm not a fan of his musicianship, the lyrics are pretty great.

"I don't know what's goin on. N, I hardly wrote this song. INTP, call meyers-briggs please. It's not an emergency, it's just my personality. T is for 'thinks he's dumb'.."
​

The idea is so perfect for this thread that I dare quote the premise:

[FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif]Album-a-Day is a Crap Art project. That means that it's a set of constraints (the rules below) which are meant to help you be creative. There are no special requirements to participate, and no expectations of quality. Embarking on the Album-a-Day project is a significant commitment of time, but I've found that it's pretty fun and rewarding! [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif]To create an Album-a-Day, you record a piece of music following these rules: [/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif][SIZE=-1]It must be written, performed, recorded, post-produced, etc. all in one contiguous 24-hour period (preferably with no sleep break in there). [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif][SIZE=-1] It must be at least 20 minutes or 30 songs. (many short songs tend to work better than long songs which drag on forever, trust me.) [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif][SIZE=-1] Your band may have multiple participants, but they should not work on different songs simultaneously. (So just one song being worked on at a time.) [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif][SIZE=-1] No ideas from before the chosen day! This means covers or reinterpretations are not allowed. [/SIZE][/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana,Sans Serif][SIZE=-1] No out-takes! If you start a song, finish it and put it on the album. [/SIZE][/FONT]

I haven't done one yet, but mark my words.. it's possible that I'll work up the motivation to do it. Maybe.

I've found that I'm only able to do anything I'm proud of when I trust my intuition to guide me and there are no real expectations and no reason to do it in the first place. Which is why the song I wrote about my dog is one of the few songs I can listen to without cringing. As well as seemingly meaningless songs about Katamari Damacy or the many uses for paper.

And so, to respond to a very important letter I freeze up because I want to impact someone the way they've impacted me. They deserve no less, but in the end receive nothing.

I am prevaricating on something right now because I don't feel I have the energy to cope if it doesn't work out.

Thank you for introducing me to this word.

 

[FusionKnight]

Ogion,

From that fascinating link you posted elsewhere:

The wizard is bound to be something of a hermit, just as the hermit is bound to identify with some characteristics of the wizard. According to a crude consensus of mythology, fantasy, psychology, and logic, wizards seek to develop the self by manifesting a talent or strength unique to themselves. This strength is a natural one, a refinement of one of the multiple intelligences, as we might say nowadays. A simpler society would have allowed such a power to finds its place.

 

[Ogion]

Hm, yes, i remember that article, a good one.
Yes, you are right. One reason for that i don't really know how my life will look like (career-wise...) is that my primary 'goal' in life is to develop myself and learn and 'be myself'. And this journey may take me whereever it takes me. The only 'problem' with that course is, as can be seen in your quote too, that it may be at odds with society.

Ogion

 

[FusionKnight]

The idea that a simpler society would allow the hermit/wizard (which is really what we INTPs are) to find their place is an intriguing one. I've been pondering and considering self-reliance, sustainable living, and frugality for awhile, with more and more fervor as time goes on. I think this is part of my interest in it, that it provides that simpler context in which the hermit can coexist with others.

 

[Gorgrim]

I like your posts. I am new to the forum, btw.. I should go and introduce myself.

I've stumbled across this forum only 2 days ago, It was actually a link from somewhere on my search to various mentions of INTP's, because I felt as if I wanted some motivation, and acknowledgement of why I was feeling as I was.

I'm recently turned 18, so I feel that these problems are quite in my face already. Whereas they were not present before I started the equivelant of high school.


There are degree's of things that awake either stronger or weaker feelings when you end up failing. Perhaps you could say that the things I take pride in doing well is what creates displeasing feelings more than anything. When thing's arent your forté, it hurts less, even to the point where it isnt noticeable.


But, admittedly, I've been enjoying a specific team game, ( read: team ) and once I got better, i met better players. It ended up on much higher stages and I have a pretty big dream of ending up as an amazing player in a top-team.

Even now, i am afraid of failing, It happens, so i've problably thrown myself out in it to see myself fail a couple times. All ending up with me not playing for a long time. It's gotten better tho. But without getting over that hurdle, I won't be able to practice, even fail a bunch of times, to suceed. Because it nags me that other people will tell me what I did wasn't any good.


I've also thought of careers, I thought I could do any job. But still, I was scared of not beeing good enough.

To a lesser degree, depending on how much I put into different classes, I'm not often saying anything unless I know im right about it.


The more you define yourself in what you do, the worse it seems to be.

In this case, I wanted to have no problem finding some jobs that I would like, and work there. My brother thought I should do just that. And ontop of not wanting to, really, I was afraid of failing at my actual job ALOT, because I knew it would hurt my idea of what I could do....

 

[Jennywocky]

...I think true self-knowledge requires death; death of the mask, of the facade, of the roles we play... all that needs to die so we can see our true face... in some ways that face is more beautiful than we can stand; in other ways it's the most hideous abomination we will ever see...

Sigh, SO true, so very true....

I remember attending a spiritual retreat and there was a sharing time at the end. I felt like God wanted me to go up and talk ... but I had no idea what to say. I went up anyway and ended up feeling so embarrassed and foolish, because I was disjointed, my tongue was clumsy, my thoughts did not come out coherently to me, and when I was done I wanted to crawl red-faced from the room and cry in the bathroom, I felt so bad.

Then, after, I had numerous people thank me for sharing and tell me that it was very raw... and very real... and they were moved by what I said. Because I had been naked, not contrived, and thus myself.

It made me feel beautiful but it didn't erase the ugliness of feeling so exposed.

I wonder if there will ever be a day when we can look at our bodies, unclothed in the mirrors, see our own faces unpainted and uncovered, and be able to embrace ourselves despite it all?

 

[Ogion]

@Gorgrim: Hi and welcome to the forum.

@FusionKnight: Yes, i think it is intriguing as well.
Perhaps one reason for a growing fear of failure stems from the feeling/perception, that today you can find an expert for nearly everything al the time somewhere. You feel like regardless of what you undertake there will always be someone who will be better at it than you. And so you are deterred from trying it in the first place. And in a 'simpler society' a wizard/hermit would be taken just as what he is and not compared to some expert at the horizon who may be 'better' at your area of interest. And so, in a 'simpler society', he would he would not be dismissed rightaway and have better chances of self-actualization; because in the end nobody can be a better expert in being you yourself.

Ogion

 

[Agent Intellect]

i've always been quite disillusioned about my own future. nobody i went to school with were destined for great things, and my family certainly hadn't acheived anything that society would consider great.

but i myself have always found what my dad does to be about the most honorable work for society: construction. people like him are the backbone of society, they're the ones that build it and keep it running. i can't go anywhere in the city of Grand Rapids without my dad saying "i helped build that". all of the buildings people use, the roads they drive on, were all built by people like him and by my dads dad (who actually helped build the macinac bridge).

my dad has worked 10+ hours a day, five or six days a week for as long as i've been alive to keep a roof over my head and food on the table and he's never complained. the reason i know i've failed is because i know i could never do what he does.

 

[loveofreason]

I hate having to 'sell' myself and am a lot more risk averse in this context.

Yes!

I feel as though my skills are never really complete, and so to put them out there I'd always be putting them out prematurely.

I could have written this word for word!

Art...[is] the closest I come to ever revealing my "true" self to the world. ...it's very difficult not to internalize the criticism, and be deeply wounded by it.

...it can be very painful when it is not received well, and it can be very discouraging for future reference. But if successful, it can be exhilarating. I guess it is a double edged sword...

I think it is hard to risk failure when so much of one's identity is tied up in whatever one is trying to accomplish.

The more you define yourself in what you do, the worse it seems to be.

I just agree with these sentiments. So underneath it all are INTPs profoundly sensitive to criticism? Is all that detachment in other areas counter-balanced by a deep attachment and identification with something we perceive to be unique about our identities? I guess all humans invest themselves in something.

I think true self-knowledge requires death; death of the mask, of the facade, of the roles we play... all that needs to die so we can see our true face... in some ways that face is more beautiful than we can stand; in other ways it's the most hideous abomination we will ever see...

To fail is like death, literally -- death of who you thought you were. What do you do after you fail, if you identified so strongly with your dreams?

Especially the failure resulting of being unable to marry my individuality with society to have my place. ...it may be at odds with society.

You feel like regardless of what you undertake there will always be someone who will be better at it than you.

...it may be at odds with society.

Here's something very important. How many of us, one way or another, have pre-internalised rejection because we learned through formative experience that who we are is essentially at odds with society?

So much so that it doesn't matter what talent one may develop, one knows that what one does and who one is, is not-never can be acceptable to others.

To reveal one's essence through one's work is to remove the disguise that gives us the pretense of social belonging. It is to stand exposed as the outcast.

I wonder if there will ever be a day when we can look at our bodies, unclothed in the mirrors, see our own faces unpainted and uncovered, and be able to embrace ourselves despite it all?

The very idea feels like a crazy dream... captivating and impossible.

...I think failure can be a very important thing to experience. I have tasted failure...it's freed me to take more risk. I'm not as afraid of failure anymore.

Also, my whole experience with failure really drove me into self-analyzation which eventually led me to discover INTP and it's implications. Without failure, I would have had no need to reevaluate myself, or to try and better understand myself and the systems in which I find myself. I am currently a much happier person having lived through failure, even though it was one of the most painful and despairing times in my life.

(I consider this process to be "death to self." You have to die to your unrealistic view of yourself, the Ideal Self as Karen Horney and others called it, and allow your Real/Fallible Self to live. Otherwise your Ideal Self -- the one you wish you could be but never really can -- will murder your Real Self.)

So failure is important as a builder of identity, not only as a threat...



I'm all for the simpler society and the return of the hermit as a respected and valued role. That's who I am.

Hermits of the world unite! (Sorry, couldn't resist. )

 

[Jennywocky]

...i myself have always found what my dad does to be about the most honorable work for society: construction. people like him are the backbone of society, they're the ones that build it and keep it running. i can't go anywhere in the city of Grand Rapids without my dad saying "i helped build that". all of the buildings people use, the roads they drive on, were all built by people like him and by my dads dad (who actually helped build the macinac bridge).

I respect people like your dad too. While I could never do that sort of work long-term and it would destroy me, I greatly admire now those who do and can. There is something to be said about diligence and concrete productivity and making something tangible out of raw material... and for good cause.

my dad has worked 10+ hours a day, five or six days a week for as long as i've been alive to keep a roof over my head and food on the table and he's never complained. the reason i know i've failed is because i know i could never do what he does.

Are you the same person as him?
Will your children (if you have some at some point) look at you and feel they are failures if they do not excel at what you excel at?
What is your great passion that you aspire to?

 

[*Stabbity*]

I'm very similiar to a bunch of you. My accomplishments are usually rooted in a have-to-be-done fashion. For example: My mind constantly comes up with ideas for this. How to improve that. Unless I have accountability my motivations are never achieved. Only in my mind are they realized. If I have extreme passion about the idea it's far more likely I will see it to fruition. When I do complete whatever it may be, it needs to be accepted/liked or I feel like it was wasted effort on my part when the energy could be put to better use.

My personal, non work related ideas are often dreamt up, put on paper and filed away more in my mind than developing further than that.

I had a friend that needed a computer. For the fact that I have them runnign out my nose, I gave him a laptop that I had bought broken and fixed up. I installed everything he could possible need for it to function as he had requested. He proceedes to allow another friend of his tell him he needs other tools to do the job and that mine are crap.

This is coming from a guy(not me) that has little to no computer experience telling him to use software that he saw in a pop up, rather than the corporate tools that I GAVE HIM.

What does that friend do? Uninstalls MY software and installs spyware-laden AV software and a host of other tools that render the laptop unusable. He calls me a day or so later and tells me what happened. He asked me to fix it. I got so mad at what he'd done, but proceeded to laugh at the prospect of me wasting any more of my time with that laptop when it was perfect when he received it.

Obvioulsy his OTHER friend who works at the local Toys-R-US knows far more about a computers needs than a tenured profesional in the industry. Duh!

He basically told me he values the OTHER guys opinion over mine. Talk about being pissed. I slaved over that(so we could talk on the net) for a week. In my spare time! The audacity!!!

When he begged me to fix it, I told him to take it to his other friend since I obviously dont know shit about computers and hung up the phone.

I conced to the fact that there is always someone better at a given task/job than you. I'm not the best at anything. But when you replace the software(corporate) with free, pop-up version crap, you should be shot. Or stabbed.

That is all.

 

[*Stabbity*]

Apparently I have an overwhelming sense of self today. Also apparently a thread hijacker too. In a small way anyway.