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Concepts out of Context

The Introvert

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Is it always fallacious to apply concepts from one mode of thought (for lack of a better word) into another?

I don't think so.

Inversely, is it a good idea to do this? Does it spurn creativity, or invite it?

Would put more than the thought into this thread, but I'm tired and would like to see your responses sooner rather than later.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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There is no "proper" school of thought, some are much less effective than others.
You can always synthesise viable ideas into your model and check the validity with time.

Fallacy means that there is something illogical about the statement or thought, not about the idea. Furthermore, fallacy relies on an outdated understanding that two valued logic is enough to interact with the world. Many times it is impossible to establish the truth and shades of grey have to be used.

Any new emergent model that relies on the best elements of the previous models is less fallacious by design.
 

The Introvert

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There is no "proper" school of thought, some are much less effective than others.
You can always synthesise viable ideas into your model and check the validity with time.
Do you know of any objective methods of doing so?
Fallacy means that there is something illogical about the statement or thought, not about the idea. Furthermore, fallacy relies on an outdated understanding that two valued logic is enough to interact with the world. Many times it is impossible to establish the truth and shades of grey have to be used.
Ah, I misunderstood. Thanks for that.
Any new emergent model that relies on the best elements of the previous models is less fallacious by design.
But my question concerns models that previously have not been applied in this context. Thus the 'concepts out of context' tag. I'm under the assumption that emergent models still serve a function (or to the same end) as the previous model.

Contextually dissimilar (and too, in this case, novel models) have no prototype with which to compare. There is no way to gauge whether or not the previous idea is now obsolete because there is no previous idea - there's a gaping hole which I'm trying to fill (assuming there is a hole, and it can be filled). I know that it follows that ideas developed from similar processes as the ones surrounding this idea would be ideal, but... well actually, that just gave me a pretty good idea.

*delves into the caverns of thought once again*
 

Brontosaurie

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no it's always right and possibly the only thing worth doing
 

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But my question concerns models that previously have not been applied in this context. Thus the 'concepts out of context' tag. I'm under the assumption that emergent models still serve a function (or to the same end) as the previous model.
This is too vague. Give me an example of ideas and models you work with or have problem with.

Models that have not been applied out of their context? Like applying three body problem to multi valued logic? I have no idea what exactly is concerned here.

I don't want to rush to conclusions about what you are trying to achieve.
 

BigApplePi

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The Introvert

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This is too vague. Give me an example of ideas and models you work with or have problem with.

Models that have not been applied out of their context? Like applying three body problem to multi valued logic? I have no idea what exactly is concerned here.

I don't want to rush to conclusions about what you are trying to achieve.

Sorry. Short on time right now, but what I'm trying to do is this:

- Take concept (let's say philosophical concept of human behaviour)

- Take previously undiscovered and unrelated phenomenon (let's say molecular interactions)

- Apply philosophical concept to molecular phenomenon, attempting to explain and hopefully show similarities between the underlying principles in both concepts

In that order.

EDIT: BAP, slick move ;)
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Extroverts in an introverted world ain't all bad. I told my wife to stop sending me this stuff, but if you must, hit the arrow in the lower left of the picture:

http://blog.petflow.com/if-this-doesnt-make-you-hug-your-dog-or-cat-i-dont-know-what-will/
BAP, can you send warnings, or hints about the video content?
I don't mind that this doesn't connect with the thread because this is a concept out of context, however I was seriously startled when they started singing and carrying animals:confused:.

Sorry. Short on time right now, but what I'm trying to do is this:

- Take concept (let's say philosophical concept of human behaviour)

- Take previously undiscovered and unrelated phenomenon (let's say molecular interactions)
Yes, so we meant the same thing, I do this often without considering different contexts, I have even attempted this on the forum. One example of this is here, from THD's post #47 and continues through mine and his, until post #52, however #52 is forced and the rest flows nicely.
- Apply philosophical concept to molecular phenomenon, attempting to explain and hopefully show similarities between the underlying principles in both concepts.

Yes definitely you can find many similarities and regularities if you connect and replace terms correctly. For me it mostly serves as a visualisation or explanation of functioning of the philosophical world using the physical, but doing it the other way around may be easier.

Any recent ideas to connect, you propose?
 

The Introvert

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Yes, so we meant the same thing, I do this often without considering different contexts, I have even attempted this on the forum. One example of this is here, from THD's post #47 and continues through mine and his, until post #52, however #52 is forced and the rest flows nicely.
This is a great example!

My propensity to do this was actually developed from conversations with THD... dat Ne!
Yes definitely you can find many similarities and regularities if you connect and replace terms correctly. For me it mostly serves as a visualisation or explanation of functioning of the philosophical world using the physical, but doing it the other way around may be easier.
That's the power of Ne. Explanation through metaphors and analogies, be they aesthetic or otherwise.
Any recent ideas to connect, you propose?
Perhaps. You might be able to help me, actually (although I don't know your background, the discussion you were having in the linked thread leads me to believe you could be of some assistance).

Is there an equivalent to reciprocal determinism in physics? Or even something similar?

BAP! You too! I know you're a mathy-dude. Anything ring a bell?
 

BigApplePi

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

BAP, can you send warnings, or hints about the video content?
I don't mind that this doesn't connect with the thread because this is a concept out of context, however I was seriously startled when they started singing and carrying animals:confused:.
Can you say more about that ... the meaning of your reaction? If I had described what you were about to see it would have damaged your spontaneous reaction.
 

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Can you say more about that ... the meaning of your reaction? If I had described what you were about to see it would have damaged your spontaneous reaction.
No, I was just stating that I got irrationally freaked out, from a normal video, I think it's because of the POV they used. So no need for warning when I realise it now. It may have been intentional too.
 

Helvete

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I can't see how it could be anything but productive. It's taking new subjects with different perspectives from what I gather, which in turn will only help to bring about different ideas.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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I can't see how it could be anything but productive. It's taking new subjects with different perspectives from what I gather, which in turn will only help to bring about different ideas.
edit: sorry might have misunderstood the post initially, 5/48 hours of sleep.

If you mean that it is productive and generates new ideas then i agree
 

Helvete

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edit: sorry might have misunderstood the post initially, 5/48 hours of sleep.

If you mean that it is productive and generates new ideas then i agree.

I will placehold this for responding to the Introvert

Yes it is what I mean.

Can't quite remember how you phrased it but I saw your initial post. I was going to say that I think this process of perspective changing quite often happens on a subconscious level, and this topic is just rationalising how it (can) work(s).
 

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Is there an equivalent to reciprocal determinism in physics? Or even something similar?

Simplest equivalent I can think of. Boiling water. One particle is a person, its rapid movements and colisions with other particles influence the particle and the enviroment, this particle receives energy from other particles that collide with it.

I wonder about the subjective thought, isn't it a result of upbringing and development? Does this imply free will then?

I think chaos theory from mathematics is all you need.

Initially the child, the agent is stable and quite predictable, it stores information like a sponge, however reacts mostly to basic stimuli.

Later on, the kid decides based on the information absorbed and on the stimuli it receives, it is more difficult to predict the behaviour, not knowing the child.

An adult is a complex enough system that it cannot be thought as a solitary being, rather as an outcome of every pseudorandom result that will not be discovered along other inputs and feedbacks that it received that are quite standard.

Like a multi element pendulum for example.

What is funny is that three body problem applies to this, or even an extension that is n-body problem
 

The Introvert

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Simplest equivalent I can think of. Boiling water. One particle is a person, its rapid movements and colisions with other particles influence the particle and the enviroment, this particle receives energy from other particles that collide with it.
Great.

Now, how do we trace that energy to a point? What if, say, that energy accumulated in one spot? Of course other interactions would take place, but say that there's a net gain of energy for one collection of particles (all of which are interchangeable with other external parts).

What causes that? Or rather, is there a mechanism you can think of that collects resources like that (not assuming free will; the accumulation is a result of simple molecular/electrical/etc. interactions)?
I wonder about the subjective thought, isn't it a result of upbringing and development? Does this imply free will then?

I think chaos theory from mathematics is all you need.

Initially the child, the agent is stable and quite predictable, it stores information like a sponge, however reacts mostly to basic stimuli.

Later on, the kid decides based on the information absorbed and on the stimuli it receives, it is more difficult to predict the behaviour, not knowing the child.
Yada yada, good thoughts here but let's not go this route. If you'd like, talk about this elsewhere, because it really is a good topic.
An adult is a complex enough system that it cannot be thought as a solitary being, rather as an outcome of every pseudorandom result that will not be discovered along other inputs and feedbacks that it received that are quite standard.
Yes. More complexity. In my previous question, you can assume that the adult is the system I'm talking about, but still based solely off those tiny interactions.
What is funny is that three body problem applies to this, or even an extension that is n-body problem
I don't quite understand this :o
 

BigApplePi

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Introvert, Blarraun has given some good physics examples. We can look at even more simpler laws of physics: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. (Newton's third law). This reciprocal determinism you mention is an example. An individual is surrounded by an environment including other people.

The thing is when the individual acts, there are so many other people it's hard to measure each average reaction and vice versa. If we are surrounded by 100 people, and we try to ignore them, the influence of each one of a hundred goes unnoticed.
 

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Re: Concepts way out of Context

Now, how do we trace that energy to a point? What if, say, that energy accumulated in one spot? Of course other interactions would take place, but say that there's a net gain of energy for one collection of particles (all of which are interchangeable with other external parts).
To see uneven energy distribution it is enough to introduce the non-uniformity. Take a kettle with boiling water, the water has 100 C on average, however there are some particles that are below and some that have more energy. These particles with more energy when in contact with a different surface (air in the kettle) will vaporize and surge towards the cooler metal contact surfaces where water droplets will form.
What causes that? Or rather, is there a mechanism you can think of that collects resources like that (not assuming free will; the accumulation is a result of simple molecular/electrical/etc. interactions)?
Uneven energy distribution is caused by entropy, or by the fact that your reference frame is a part of a larger system where energy is uneven.
Yada yada, good thoughts here but let's not go this route. If you'd like, talk about this elsewhere, because it really is a good topic.
This is not the usual yada yada. Chaos Theory is the key to understanding the complexity of the information input of a system of multiple individuals that we are trying to describe. I recommend that you compare chaos theory to this model and you will see great similarities and connections.

Information entropy, is the measure of the predictability of the information that you receive. This is connected to the chaos theory and the resulting pseudorandom behaviours. In the boiling water system, as in the human interaction system, the complexity and pseudorandom behaviour with information entropy increase.
Yes. More complexity. In my previous question, you can assume that the adult is the system I'm talking about, but still based solely off those tiny interactions.
The interactions are not tiny, consider that senses gather huge amounts of data.
Human eye has roughly 576 megapixels as this NASA moon picture.
Your eyes have 24 fps rate, so you take 12 GB of visual information every second.
After 16 hours every day this amounts to 0,5*24*60*60*16=691.2 TB of information that your brain filters and processes.

From this 691 TB your brain selects what is important and what you will later react to or remember.
I don't quite understand this :o
Look at the links I have provided. N-body problem is present as an obstacle to Newtonian and Classical mechanics, as it is impossible to predict and describe the behaviour of more than two bodies using simple calculus.

In astrophysics and physics, systems of multiple bodies become unsolvable over time as the complexity increases. This is called chaotic behaviour.
Some visual examples to help represent this behaviour:
Choreography means that you have found a stable or semi-stable configuration of multiple bodies that can repeat their interactions in a similar way.
Can you see the obvious and not so obvious relations of this with your idea of reciprocal determinism? I can expand and try to explain it more but I think that first you should experience the idea.
The thing is when the individual acts, there are so many other people it's hard to measure each average reaction and vice versa. If we are surrounded by 100 people, and we try to ignore them, the influence of each one of a hundred goes unnoticed.
Information entropy and chaos, plus filtering of input.
 
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