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Concealed Carry

FusionKnight

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I'm fairly certain most of you Europeans aren't allowed to carry concealed (or open carry) firearms, but for those who live in a place where it is legal, do you? Would you be interested in doing so? If it's not legal now, would you if it were legal? Would you regardless of its legality? Do you feel it's a necessary right, or a dangerous allowance?

For myself, I believe very strongly in the private ownership of arms, including those traditionally reserved for military use like automatic weapons, etc. My main reason is to keep government afraid of rebellion. My secondary reasons are that: guns are cool, I like shooting, and they're great tools for self-defense.
 

NoID10ts

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I'm in Texas. We all carry six shooters on each hip here. I open my soda cans with a 9mm and I pay at all the toll booths with lead. When I feel particularly bogged down, I use a specially designed enema shotgun to freshen up. My wife even feeds me by firing english peas into my mouth with a .22.

But seriously, I agree with FusionKnight (I keep wanting to abbreviate that to 'FK' but something just doesn't look right about it). I do not own a gun and don't really desire to own one, but I think it should be allowed. I have a friend who has an arsenal and just recieved his concealed handgun license. Even though I believe it is his right, I must confess it makes me a bit nervous. He has a bit of a "road rage" problem and one night I dreamed he started shooting at other drivers!

He is the type of person who could use a gun if necessary to protect himself (a strong ESTJ). I, on the other hand, am not so sure I could shoot someone. He always tells people that if you don't know how to properly use, and care for a firearm, and if you don't have what it takes to pull the trigger if necessary, you should not own a gun.
 

Reverse Transcriptase

"you're a poet whether you like it or not"
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When I feel particularly bogged down, I use a specially designed enema shotgun to freshen up.
That reminded me of Spider's bowel disruptor.
transmetropolitan06.jpg


I would absolutely conceal-carry a bowel disruptor. Set to "Leaky"!
 

Ogion

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Hm, coming from a land (continent) where it is not common habit to even have weapons anymore, have my problems with firearms.
Lately i have been reading a bit about the political-philosophical reasons why people keep firearms (you know, second amendment-stuff...), and i can connect to that at some level. I always ask myself if the high murder rate in the US goes hand in hand (somehow causally linked) with firearms-possession or if it has different reasons. We in Germany for example have much, much less murders, even though we don't have so many weapons as you have.
You can compare murder rates of worlds countries here.

Ogion
 

FusionKnight

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untitled.jpg


These are the stats from the wiki pages on murder rates and gun ownership rates. I took the top 5 and bottom 5 countries in terms of gun ownership and compared their murder rates. I left out countries not on both lists, as well as Iraq (due to the current insurgency) and Nigeria (since it's so extremely poor).

I think the numbers show that gun ownership is not positively correlated with murder rates, and could potentially be negatively correlated. Obviously this is just a quick and dirty check, but it reveals some interesting data.

Here's the same analysis as above, except comparing murder rates with GDP per capita. I think it shows a much more stunning correlation.

murderandpoverty.jpg
 

NoID10ts

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We in Germany for example have much, much less murders, even though we don't have so many weapons as you have.
You can compare murder rates of worlds countries here.

I think our Libertarian friends have a pretty strong defense to the charge that gun ownership raises the murder rate, but I am probably not qualified to articulate it.

There is no question that we have more than our fair share of guns in the US. I was robbed by a guy who had a gun in each hand a number of years ago! Last year we had two of our former students shot to death in seperate, gang related, incidents. Gun violence is rampant here.

In light of the fact that we already have so many guns on our streets, I think that if you strip the law abiding gun owners of their weapons now, the only people who will have them are the people who don't care about the law to begin with.

But again, I am no expert on the matter.
 

Agent Intellect

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In light of the fact that we already have so many guns on our streets, I think that if you strip the law abiding gun owners of their weapons now, the only people who will have them are the people who don't care about the law to begin with.

exactly. the only people gun laws keep guns away from are people who would not use them to murder or rob people.

or use them as fireworks on the fourth of july. people around my apartment did that this last independance day. and people like a cousin of mine shouldn't have guns. he got in a bar fight and pulled it out, shooting into the air to scare the other guy off. he had priors and some cocaine in his pocket, so he's still in prison now after 5 years.

the problem is, you don't know what someone has in mind when they go to buy a gun, but to keep the 90% of the people who would only use them for defense or hunting or whatever from having guns just because of the 10% that use them for evil, thats not really freedom.
 

Ogion

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@NoI: I wasn't stating it would be causal, i was just asking.

Well, i think it is a valid argument that most people wouldn't run through the streets playing gunslinger. And yes, such laws are hindering only the law-obedient people, as always.

Ogion
 

grey matters

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Hm,
Lately i have been reading a bit about the political-philosophical reasons why people keep firearms

Ogion






How about their fun?

Hey by the way, do you know what the definition of gun control is in Texas? It is the ability to hit your target.
 

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untitled.jpg


These are the stats from the wiki pages on murder rates and gun ownership rates. I took the top 5 and bottom 5 countries in terms of gun ownership and compared their murder rates. I left out countries not on both lists, as well as Iraq (due to the current insurgency) and Nigeria (since it's so extremely poor).

I think the numbers show that gun ownership is not positively correlated with murder rates, and could potentially be negatively correlated. Obviously this is just a quick and dirty check, but it reveals some interesting data.

Here's the same analysis as above, except comparing murder rates with GDP per capita. I think it shows a much more stunning correlation.

murderandpoverty.jpg

Very interesting. Especially the GDP chart. The others are misleading since it is Columbia and Brazil that have the high murder rates. Those can be explained rather easily without bringing gun ownership into it.

On to the initial question. I personally don't own or need a gun. In fact for me it is probably a bad idea to have one but I do believe the right should remain. Not automatic weopons though, I don't buy the argument that the govt. would be all that afraid of a rebellion. For one to be successful in this day and age, the rebellion would have to have the military on it's side. Otherwise rebels are NO match for the military (that would be used to suppress a rebellion). Unless of course you can afford a few Abrahms and F-18s. Still.....
 

FusionKnight

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Man, my post got held up in limbo, and now everybody's skipped by it... can I repost it, or is it stuck a page behind forever...?
 

Jesin

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Look above you. IB responded to it.

That may be one of the posts I just approved, though. I don't think Lor checked the spam filter this morning, and I don't have time on weekday mornings.
 

Artifice Orisit

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In my opinion anyone who wants a firearm because they intend to use it as a form of entertainment shouldn't be given one. I've fired guns and known plenty of people who own them and yes I know target shooting is fun; however there are venues where people can go for target shooting where guns are provided (and chained down).

Most gun owners will never harm another human being or do anything irresponsible, well okay merely leaving a operative gun accessible and unattended is irresponsible, but I digress. But wouldn't you play your part in keeping guns out of civilian hands if it meant a considerable reduction in murder rates? Do you have right to indirectly participate in the death of another person, for only the sake of entertainment?

Although if you have a specific reason for a gun, such as living on a cattle farm or something, then of course there is a reason for owning a gun (not several).
 

Agent Intellect

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but who can say that this person can own a gun but this other person can't? or to say you can have a gun for this reason but not that reason? why should the government be able to tell people they aren't responsible enough to own a firearm? thats treading dangerous territory (even more dangerous then people with guns, in my opinion)
 

Artifice Orisit

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Governments already tell people if they can or can't use guns, problems only occur when people are told they have a right to be armed. The American constitution was written in times when people made their living with guns, hunting small animals and such. It shouldn't be too hard to explain that just because early settlers used weapons as part of their everyday life that people in modern times are allowed to keep automatic weapons in suburban homes.

Unless somebody desperately requires a phallic symbol for psychological compensation, I don't see why it would be so hard not having them. Hmm now there's an idea, the "Penis enlargers for guns program" it just might work, and improve national satisfaction in women.
 

Agent Intellect

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its about the right to choose whether or not to own a gun. nobody has to own one, but its better to have the choice. and, as i said earlier, the only people that gun laws will restrict are the people who will have a gun for honest reasons. unless they amend the constitution to repeal the second amendment, they have absolutely no right to tell people they can't own guns.
 

Artifice Orisit

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I believe that...

1. A tyrannical form government based upon replacement via assassination would be most beneficial for society by ensuring that leaders are capable and considerate of the publics will, yet still capable of being necessarily ruthless.

2. People should have a right to take whatever form of action they please regardless of morality and then right to choose between killing themselves or being imprisoned; implementation of Darwinian evolution in the legal system.

So why am I arguing against the free sale of guns? Because it's fun of course and I get to imply that anyone who owns or wishes to own a gun has an insecurity complex.

Have I successfully popped your bubble, AI?
I do this sort of thing to keep logical debates free of emotional biases, oh and I concede.
Congratulations :D your an excellent defender, will anyone else take up the offensive? I'm too tired to keep it up.
 

Ogion

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There is another aspect (one which AI did mention partly): If i own a gun, because i think i might need it in a robbery or something, then i have to be absolutely sure that i will use it in the given situation. If i have a gun with me or even draw it in a situation i will have to use it when i have to use it. You know all these film scenes, where some woman or so has a gun with which to defend against someone, and then this someone simply goes up to them and take the gun away, because she can't pull the trigger? That is worse than you not having any gun at all in the first place.
So, it is not only about owning a gun, it is also about getting into the 'right' frame of mind. The one in which you will pull the trigger and end another persons life, when he threatens you...I would not be able to, i think, and i don't think i would want either.
I don't want to be a person which is willing to just end the life of another human, perhaps because he wants my money...

Ogion
 

FusionKnight

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Governments already tell people if they can or can't use guns, problems only occur when people are told they have a right to be armed. The American constitution was written in times when people made their living with guns, hunting small animals and such. It shouldn't be too hard to explain that just because early settlers used weapons as part of their everyday life that people in modern times are allowed to keep automatic weapons in suburban homes.

The second amendment was encoded into our constitution because the revolutionary war was one with small arms in the hands of ordinary people. The founders wanted to make darn sure if there ever needed to be another revolution, that the people would retain the means. Also, keep in mind the weapons they used in the war were the same state-of-the-art weapons being used by the British military... I think this is a great argument for eliminating bans on automatic weapons and even tanks and fighter planes (which the 2nd amendment clearly trumps anyway).

Hm, coming from a land (continent) where it is not common habit to even have weapons anymore, have my problems with firearms.
Lately i have been reading a bit about the political-philosophical reasons why people keep firearms (you know, second amendment-stuff...), and i can connect to that at some level.

Keep in mind that the United States was built upon a foundation of rugged individualism. The people who settled this country were running away from civilization toward the frontier. This was true for the majority of our history until "civilization" reached the Pacific. Now the land is tamed, and those comfortable with the gilded cage can't understand those of us who inherited our forefather's need for space and liberty.

The gun is the great equalizer. It brings the struggle between man and predator to an even field, it allows a small woman to protect herself from an overpowering man, it even allows the people to retain an even footing vis-a-vis a tyrannical government.

So, it is not only about owning a gun, it is also about getting into the 'right' frame of mind. The one in which you will pull the trigger and end another persons life, when he threatens you...I would not be able to, i think, and i don't think i would want either.
I don't want to be a person which is willing to just end the life of another human, perhaps because he wants my money...

You will never hear gun advocates recommend shooting someone over money. First of all, every time your gun leaves it's holster is a potential for a life-altering legal embroglio in which you may spend time in jail, and have to sell everything you own to pay for legal fees. It gets 1,000 times worse if you actually shoot someone or kill them. It's worth it to lose $100 and avoid that trouble.

In fact, the only situation in which the defensive use of a handgun is justified (both legally and economically) is when your life (or another's) is in danger, or in danger of great bodily harm. When this occurs, the legal fees and possible jail time would be worth it because you're alive instead of dead, or whole instead of crippled.

So, if a guy pushes you over and takes your wallet, you're not justified in shooting. However, if he approaches with a weapon (fists can also be deadly weapons) and appears to intend violence, then you are justified. The jury will be asked if, given the information you had at the time, any reasonable person would have assumed they faced great bodily injury or death. If yes, then it is found justifiable. If no, then you're charged with murder and put in prison.
 

grey matters

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Unless somebody desperately requires a phallic symbol for psychological compensation, I don't see why it would be so hard not having them. Hmm now there's an idea, the "Penis enlargers for guns program" it just might work, and improve national satisfaction in women.[/quote]







I am a woman so the "penis enlargers for guns program" that you suggested would not benifit me (at least not directly). I will keep my gun. I have my gun for home protection. It's faster to shoot someone who is breaking into your house then to call the police and have them shoot the person who is breaking into your house. I like speed and efficiency.

Thank you F.knight for your post. I was going to go on a similar tirade but you saved me the typing. My ten fingers thank you. *fingers wave in the air*
 

NoID10ts

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Here's a picture of me with my favorite gun. I use this particular one to shoot at squirrels around the neighborhood. It's terribly inaccurate for squirrel shooting, but I like to use it because the neighborhood kids get a kick out of it.

attachment.php
 
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grey matters

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See, this is a good argument for multiple guns. If you want to eat the squirrel you need to shoot it with a smaller gun. Use the right size gun for the application next time!
 

FusionKnight

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The pistol I'm looking at for concealed carry is the Sig P232.

232left.jpg


It's chambered for .380, and has a 7 round magazine capacity. It's similar in size and shape to the Walther PPK, but it fits my hand like a glove. It's also a Sig, so quality is no question. It does have a European magazine release (on the bottom of the magazine) which requires two hands to operate... that's the only negative I've found so far...
 

NoID10ts

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It's kind of small. Why don't you get one of those Dirty Harry guns and tuck it down the front of you pants. That way, in addition to be able to blow someones head clean off, you can make it look like you have a ginormous INTPness.

:D
 

grey matters

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YOU! You and your INTPness, go back! *cracks whip* Back to the thread where you belong! *cracks whip again*
 

EditorOne

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"So, it is not only about owning a gun, it is also about getting into the 'right' frame of mind. The one in which you will pull the trigger and end another persons life, when he threatens you...I would not be able to, i think, and i don't think i would want either. "


This is quite a problem for anyone with a thinking mind.

It's always been a problem. During the American Civil War men who would not deliberately take aim at the enemy were mentioned with enough frequency to make me think, at any rate, that it was pretty widespread. It's one reason why the military includes steps to dehumanize the enemy when training men to fight. Killing, despite our fond cynicism, does NOT come easy to a lot of people.

And meanwhile, that little .38 is fine for concealed carry. Small enough to fit in the inside pocket of a sports jacket; small enough to go in a briefcase. It makes a big, big noise.
 

FusionKnight

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"So, it is not only about owning a gun, it is also about getting into the 'right' frame of mind. The one in which you will pull the trigger and end another persons life, when he threatens you...I would not be able to, i think, and i don't think i would want either. "

This is quite a problem for anyone with a thinking mind.

It's always been a problem. During the American Civil War men who would not deliberately take aim at the enemy were mentioned with enough frequency to make me think, at any rate, that it was pretty widespread. It's one reason why the military includes steps to dehumanize the enemy when training men to fight. Killing, despite our fond cynicism, does NOT come easy to a lot of people.

No doubt. Who really wants to be a killer? No sane human. Despite my conviction that the defense of self and other is righteous, I hope to God I never have to exercise it. It's not an experience I wish to have, nor a burden I wish to carry.
 

severus

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Haven't read through everything, but allow me to interject:
If we weren't shooting eachother, we'd be stabbing eachother. see: UK
And all this school violence is from the "ADD" kids hopped up on Ritalin.
 

Ogion

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That might be, but there are countries with a lot lower murder rate.
So the weapons in itself may have little to do with the murder rate, statistically at least and perhaps/probably also causally.

Ogion
 

grey matters

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Haven't read through everything, but allow me to interject:
If we weren't shooting eachother, we'd be stabbing eachother. see: UK
And all this school violence is from the "ADD" kids hopped up on Ritalin.







Is there a connection between Ritilin and violence? This is a serious question I am not just asking it to be contrary.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Is there a connection between Ritilin and violence? This is a serious question I am not just asking it to be contrary.

From what I've found, the evidence seems anecdotal. The possibility shouldn't be ignored but will forever be as long as there is money to be made in pharmacuticals. There are instances of violence in children on Ritalin or other type drugs but there is also instances of violence in children not on the drugs. I haven't found statistics stating whether or not the percentages of violent incedents are higher among Ritalin users or not. Even if so, that's not enough to be considered proof. After all, those put on the medications are considered to be "troubled" already.
 

grey matters

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I had a friend of mine who worked in one of those group homes for children. He said that the first thing he did when a child came to live in the home was to discontinue the antipsychotic medication. His theory was that the child's problem was due to nurture not biology. His experience was that when he discontinued the meds. this actually sped up the psychological healing that the children needed.


For over 6 years I have fought with my sons teachers to keep him off antipsychotic meds. They want to put him on ADD meds and some want to put him on bipolar meds. When he started kindergarden he had this unusual behavior which was to curl up into a ball and go compleatly limp when someone asked him to do something he didn't want to do. He would act like he was deaf and you could lift up his arm and let it fall limply on the ground.

He tried this a couple of times at home, learned it didn't work and gave up. He also tried this with some success at the nusery and with his grandmother until they learned not to put up with it and he gave up.

Well of course he was going to try it on his teacher and on the principle! After all he had some success with it in the past, right? Anyway the school thought he was crazy and was just about to get Child Protective Services involved. Somehow these people (who of all people should have known better because they work with children all the time) couldn't see that his unusual behavior was just a way to control adults. they couldn't see that when he balled up and went limp that he was telling them that they couldn't make him do anything.

I treat his ADD with discipline, concentration techniques, and when possible, positive outlets for his behavior. Now he is in the 5th grade, he has learnded to control himself and his ADD symptoms are no longer disruptive.


My daughther has what would be called the "space out" type of ADD. I have had to fight with her teachers to keep her off meds also. I had the same kind of so called ADD when I was a child. For me I atribute the so called space out ADD symptoms to being INTP, not to ADD.

Both my children get A's and B's in school dispite not being medicated.
 

Thaklaar

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Oh God, I so would have been on Ritalin if I was in school now (I know those tenses are wrong, but choose not to fix them.) Which, considering my extremely addictive personality, means I'd likely wind up addicted to the crap. Good on yer for fightin' the system.

Guns. I don't own one, nor do I particularly wish to. But I'm glad I live in Texas and know people that'll sell me one if all hell breaks loose. Small arms may be useless in a major armed conflict, but they're quite nifty in a guerilla war, which any serious revolution would likely be unless it's led by the army (unlikely without a major shift, and I mean major, in American military culture).

America's crime rate is, in my opinion, far more attributable to our extraordinary (among Western nations) disparity in wealth between the poor inner-cities and mainstream, middle-class America. The special kind of hopelessness felt by inner-city minorities is extremely conducive to high crime rates.
 

INTPINFP

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I had a friend of mine who worked in one of those group homes for children. He said that the first thing he did when a child came to live in the home was to discontinue the antipsychotic medication. His theory was that the child's problem was due to nurture not biology. His experience was that when he discontinued the meds. this actually sped up the psychological healing that the children needed.


For over 6 years I have fought with my sons teachers to keep him off antipsychotic meds. They want to put him on ADD meds and some want to put him on bipolar meds. When he started kindergarden he had this unusual behavior which was to curl up into a ball and go compleatly limp when someone asked him to do something he didn't want to do. He would act like he was deaf and you could lift up his arm and let it fall limply on the ground.

He tried this a couple of times at home, learned it didn't work and gave up. He also tried this with some success at the nusery and with his grandmother until they learned not to put up with it and he gave up.

Well of course he was going to try it on his teacher and on the principle! After all he had some success with it in the past, right? Anyway the school thought he was crazy and was just about to get Child Protective Services involved. Somehow these people (who of all people should have known better because they work with children all the time) couldn't see that his unusual behavior was just a way to control adults. they couldn't see that when he balled up and went limp that he was telling them that they couldn't make him do anything.

I treat his ADD with discipline, concentration techniques, and when possible, positive outlets for his behavior. Now he is in the 5th grade, he has learnded to control himself and his ADD symptoms are no longer disruptive.


My daughther has what would be called the "space out" type of ADD. I have had to fight with her teachers to keep her off meds also. I had the same kind of so called ADD when I was a child. For me I atribute the so called space out ADD symptoms to being INTP, not to ADD.

Both my children get A's and B's in school dispite not being medicated.

I hate people like that. They freak out if they don't have ultimate control over people under their authority. And, if a kid doesnt want to do something, it shouldn't be forced to play our stupid scharade. Childhood is the best part of our lives, lets not ruin it.
Anyone who is too intelligient to conform is labeled "troubled." We are a horde mind indeed.

As for weapons, semi-automatic armor piercing is just fine for a military uprising/overseas invasion. Can pierce through just about any armor other than tank. The thing about auto-matic, is that your shots don't feel personal. When you pull the trigger of a semi-automatic you have to think about the person behind the muzzle when you fire the next shot.
 
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