Can you strengthen functions simply by attending activities that utilize them?

[david251]

Don't mistaken my beliefs. I believe that functions are passive and involuntary, most likely mediated by deep/inner sub-cortical regions such as the Thalamus.

When working on specific muscles you strengthen them by utilizing them. But they are muscles after all, do you think functions behave like muscles in this context?

 

[Tutu]

I think it's not the same because the functions are basically the opposite of each other like Fi
/Fe,Ni/Ne when you develop one of the function it excludes the other at the same time.But I think it's possible to develop both Fe and Fi in a person due to the environments he/she is in.

I found it might be useful for one to adopt the main beliefs or mottos behind functions and then make yourself somehow rationalize it and then your behaviors would come out more naturally.

 

[EditorOne]

Yes, but you must participate. It is a lot like exercise. You can join the football team, but if you don't do the conditioning work and participate in the drills, you never improve your football skills.
Learning the active, visible elements of the various functions and practicing them does work, and you will fit in better, and you will understand other people better, and they'll stop looking at you like you have a carrot growing out of your ear, but you'll never do the personality equivalent of catching a football with one hand.

 

[david251]

I found it might be useful for one to adopt the main beliefs or mottos behind functions and then make yourself somehow rationalize it and then your behaviors would come out more naturally.

I can't think of a way that can have any practicability... Functions are functions, how can you adopt "the main beliefs or mottos" behind another function and expect your behaviors to be more natural?

I mean, we are intp-s. So our ti counterpart would be Fe. Fe has to do with feeling social norms and what's socially acceptable. Now how can you "rationalize" something you lack skills at? We are good at rationalizing technical problems or incosistencies in theories, but getting the ti function to do the work Fe does? Is that practically possible?

AND even if you achieve to do that, will you be strengthening your functions? -that was the question in the first place.

 

[david251]

Yes, but you must participate. It is a lot like exercise. You can join the football team, but if you don't do the conditioning work and participate in the drills, you never improve your football skills.
Learning the active, visible elements of the various functions and practicing them does work, and you will fit in better, and you will understand other people better, and they'll stop looking at you like you have a carrot growing out of your ear, but you'll never do the personality equivalent of catching a football with one hand.

that means that listening to music will strengthen my Fe function?
or that watching a comedy will strengthen my Ne function?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

that means that listening to music will strengthen my Fe function?
or that watching a comedy will strengthen my Ne function?

That means that your development be it art or science, social or physical depends on the various activities you perform, if you practice math and architectural design, you will definitely understand more theoretical structures and systems.

This may mean that you will be exhibiting more Ti on your next test, but only if you naturally/commonly use these functions it will have an impact on your mbti test, otherwise it will give you an understanding of how other natural users of these functions might operate.

It has to be stressed that functions are a simplified reflection and description of much more complex sets of abilities and predispositions that comprise what is called you.

So when you practice programming or design, it isn't that you increase your Ti or Te, it means that you think and use creativity or rules to applied problem solving, which then later may be reflected in how you do other things too.

 

[Architect]

Yes absolutely, I verified this in my own life. It's easy to test but it takes some time, however a thought experiment will make the point clear. Introverted thinking (Ti) is almost nonexistent when you are a baby. Obviously though it is an observable behavior in adults, so where does it come from? The only conclusion is that it develops so is not involuntary, though it may have involuntary motivations. Therefore the only way to develop functions is through using them in activities.

that means that listening to music will strengthen my Fe function?

Yes, I'm a musician and have a reputably well developed/integrated Fe. This was mainly due to all the work in interpretation I did in music.

or that watching a comedy will strengthen my Ne function?

Possibly. Interestingly I find that developing functions must be done actively. TV watching is generally passive and I don't think will utilize them as much.

The best way to work on Ne is through R&D (if you're in a STEM field) or by exploring ideas in a creative work if you're a Humanaties geek.

 

[david251]

Yes absolutely, I verified this in my own life. It's easy to test but it takes some time, however a thought experiment will make the point clear. Introverted thinking (Ti) is almost nonexistent when you are a baby. Obviously though it is an observable behavior in adults, so where does it come from? The only conclusion is that it develops so is not involuntary, though it may have involuntary motivations. Therefore the only way to develop functions is through using them in activities.



Yes, I'm a musician and have a reputably well developed/integrated Fe. This was mainly due to all the work in interpretation I did in music.



Possibly. Interestingly I find that developing functions must be done actively. TV watching is generally passive and I don't think will utilize them as much.

The best way to work on Ne is through R&D (if you're in a STEM field) or by exploring ideas in a creative work if you're a Humanaties geek.

Replace the world "hair" with the world "function" in your logical statement:

Hair is almost nonexistent when you are a baby. Obviously though it is observable in adults, so where does it come from? The only conclusion is that it develops so is not involuntary, though it may have involuntary motivations.

this kind of logic doesn't apply to "hair" (because hair grows as a consequence of our DNA structure). Why do you think it applies to functions?
Is everything undeveloped in your infancy not involuntary ?

 

[Tutu]

I can't think of a way that can have any practicability... Functions are functions, how can you adopt "the main beliefs or mottos" behind another function and expect your behaviors to be more natural?

I mean, we are intp-s. So our ti counterpart would be Fe. Fe has to do with feeling social norms and what's socially acceptable. Now how can you "rationalize" something you lack skills at? We are good at rationalizing technical problems or incosistencies in theories, but getting the ti function to do the work Fe does? Is that practically possible?

AND even if you achieve to do that, will you be strengthening your functions? -that was the question in the first place.

1 Functions indicate preference and everyone has eight function .
2 The functions are dynamic rather than static.The theory says it develops throughout ones life.So that's how one can actually develop less preferred functions .For example,I m typed as ENFP and my functions Ne Fi Te Si basically I m aware that I'm developing the third function which I wouldn't have been interested while in my adolescense. But how can I develop something I'm not skilled at (Te)? From my own experience it begins with the awareness in myself that I need or want to be more logical and then I'm interested in getting to learn more about critical thinking and find resources to learn .

Strangely enough sometimes,you realise you can relate to T more about F even when your F is secondly dominant.The beliefs I mentioned are the reasons or the thinkings that keeps you from developing the opposite function.

I think Fe might look different in expression from a ESFJ and a INTP.

 

[david251]

That means that your development be it art or science, social or physical depends on the various activities you perform, if you practice math and architectural design, you will definitely understand more theoretical structures and systems.

So when you practice programming or design, it isn't that you increase your Ti or Te, it means that you think and use creativity or rules to applied problem solving, which then later may be reflected in how you do other things too.

Let's say I learn programming skills (I take a programming course). that definitely increases my skills in creating software. So I guess we can say my ti on creating a software got developed, because now I can analyze, categorize, evaluate better and faster according to the new principles which I learned on the course (-which happens to be the definition of ti function).

What has any of this to do with strengthening my ti function in a general context? I strengthened my ti function relating to software, because I can create them more easily and faster. But when faced with problems that have nothing to do with programming my ti hasn't changed. I cannot provide better insights on physics problems after taking the programming course.

the reason for this happening is that what I have learned on the course is just knowledge. this kind of knowledge is incompatible with physics and that's why I don't become better at solving physics problems after talking the course.

So, after the course I have obtained new knowledge. I have also obtained better concentration skills. I don't think I have developed better analyzing, categorizing, evaluating skills (- the definition of ti function) apart of in my field. I think that the latter skills (ti) has been my necessary skill set to understand programming when entering the course. I believe my ti helped me obtain my new knowledge more easily, since it is easier to understand programming language if you have ti as your primary function.

Some people think that ti (any function) should operate as a muscle. In this case that means that using ti because I am learning programming strengthens it, just like an athlete strengthens his muscles when running. I don't get why functions should act like muscles? there is a biological explanation why muscles get stronger after using them. Does this biological explanation apply to functions as well. I think not, because functions have to do with psychology, not biology. So why do people keep thinking that using your function will strengthen it? As I said, you use your ti to learn new knowledge and the results you get are: new knowledge, concentration skills. By what logic is your function strengthened as a byproduct in this process?

Apart from new knowledge I agree that you grow some new neurons. those can help you in analyzing, categorizing, evaluating (-ti function). So you can say, "you see, you increased your ti by taking the course after all". But wouldn't that mean that creating new neurons= strengthening ti? Does that make sense? Could you equalize a function to something like your number of neurons? If not(which I expect you to agree), by what logic is your function strengthened when you use it? It's not a neuron and neither a muscle after all.

 

[Jennywocky]

Replace the world "hair" with the world "function" in your logical statement:

Hair is almost nonexistent when you are a baby. Obviously though it is observable in adults, so where does it come from? The only conclusion is that it develops so is not involuntary, though it may have involuntary motivations.

this kind of logic doesn't apply to "hair" (because hair grows as a consequence of our DNA structure). Why do you think it applies to functions?
Is everything undeveloped in your infancy not involuntary ?

The important question here is whether "hair" is an equivalent thing to the "Ti function."

One issue is that a hair follicle is just a hair follicle. It's a static, tangible thing. It doesn't matter whether it's in a baby or in an adult; it still operates under the same quantifiable principles.

So you're not even really comparing "hair," you're really comparing "quantity of hair" to a way of thinking/behaving... and also ignoring the tangential fact that a number of babies are born with a lot of hair. (Often it falls out, but babies are not necessarily bald, you know.)

 

[david251]

1 Functions indicate preference and everyone has eight function .
2 The functions are dynamic rather than static.The theory says it develops throughout ones life.So that's how one can actually develop less preferred functions .For example,I m typed as ENFP and my functions Ne Fi Te Si basically I m aware that I'm developing the third function which I wouldn't have been interested while in my adolescense. But how can I develop something I'm not skilled at (Te)? From my own experience it begins with the awareness in myself that I need or want to be more logical and then I'm interested in getting to learn more about critical thinking and find resources to learn .

Ok, let's take an example. Let's say you need or want to be more logical and find resources to learn, so you can strengthen your te. Let's say you found a book whose author is a critical thinker and his dominant function is te. the title of the book could be anything, it doesn't matter.

Since te is the dominant function of the author but not your dominant function you find it difficulty to keep up with the book, I would say unnatural. Regardless you can still read and understand what the author is saying, you can also understand that the way he thinks is different from yours. You go on reading and all you do is noticing that these facts are getting more apparent. Read, read, read... what do you expect to happen? By what logic do you think this book would strengthen somehow your te function?

 

[david251]

The important question here is whether "hair" is an equivalent thing to the "Ti function."

One issue is that a hair follicle is just a hair follicle. It's a static, tangible thing. It doesn't matter whether it's in a baby or in an adult; it still operates under the same quantifiable principles.

So you're not even really comparing "hair," you're really comparing "quantity of hair" to a way of thinking/behaving... and also ignoring the tangential fact that a number of babies are born with a lot of hair. (Often it falls out, but babies are not necessarily bald, you know.)

I understand what you're saying and I agree. My goal was to prove that his logic statement doesn't stand in the way it was formulated.

 

[Tutu]

Ok, let's take an example. Let's say you need or want to be more logical and find resources to learn, so you can strengthen your te. Let's say you found a book whose author is a critical thinker and his dominant function is te. the title of the book could be anything, it doesn't matter.

Since te is the dominant function of the author but not your dominant function you find it difficulty to keep up with the book, I would say unnatural. Regardless you can still read and understand what the author is saying, you can also understand that the way he thinks is different from yours. You go on reading and all you do is noticing that these facts are getting more apparent. Read, read, read... what do you expect to happen? By what logic do you think this book would strengthen somehow your te function?

Reading is just a way of learning but you need to practice the skills that are not so natural and then you become more conscious in when and how you could use them or notice how others thinks.its thinking skills that you can be trained in.The more you use it in your life and it can become a preference.

 

[EditorOne]

that means that listening to music will strengthen my Fe function?
or that watching a comedy will strengthen my Ne function?

Nope. Performing music and delivering a comedy routine will strengthen those functions. You can learn something by observing, but participating is better if you want to deploy those functions.

 

[EditorOne]

And a reminder that all your functions are at some level preferences, not inescapable compulsions.....

 

[Architect]

And a reminder that all your functions are at some level preferences, not inescapable compulsions.....

Basis for this? Jung didn't think so, in his patients he found that a midlife crises was most often due to the person acting outside of their natural tendencies - what later became the functions. Other practitioners including Marie Von Franz, Lenore Thompson agree - as do I. Your functions definitely are inescapable, at least in the sense that the evidence is clear that they don't change. This forms the basis for my hypthosis that the functions live in the Cortex, which is the pre-mammilian part of our brain that isn't capable of learning. This is why animals like lizards and fish can't learn and only act on instinct.

Our neocortex (which exists only in mammals) is designed to learn. So again, how you act on your functions (as basic desires) is up to you. So you frequently see people "act out of their type". Introverts who are extraverting, INTP's chopping wood or playing team sports, etc. However you can't do it for long without a psychic cost.

Which gets back to the original point - your basic motivations from your Type are fixed, but how you respond to them is entirely up to you. A wise person maximizes their psychic energy by developing habits (a personality in the neocortex) that aligns with their type. An unwise person tries to "be it all", including things he's bad at.

Maybe we're mixed up on nomenclature - you did say "at some level". I'd agree that at the level of the neocortex/personality they are preferences, but not at the Type/cortex lower level.

 

[david251]

Reading is just a way of learning but you need to practice the skills that are not so natural and then you become more conscious in when and how you could use them or notice how others thinks.its thinking skills that you can be trained in.

Functions are difficult to recognize in an individual. Only professional Jungian theorists are able to do that. A layman could not recognize "functions" in the way a person thinks. You will confuse the function you are trying to recognize in his thinking with something completely unrelated.

The more you use it in your life and it can become a preference.

Why do you think that's supposed to be true?

 

[StevenM]

I think with any activity, the psyche tries to find a way to adapt and perform that activity by using either the 2 leading functions (INTP - TiNe), or the other two valued functions (FeSi).

An activity with a good balanced mixture (slightly more TiNe and a little less FeSi) of use with these functions, would make an INTP very happy.

Another idea came to me. I would say 'football' would almost, somewhat force the use of extroverted sensing. I would be curious what a daily routine of football would do to an INTP.

 

[Tutu]

Functions are difficult to recognize in an individual. Only professional Jungian theorists are able to do that. A layman could not recognize "functions" in the way a person thinks. You will confuse the function you are trying to recognize in his thinking with something completely unrelated.



Why do you think that's supposed to be true?

Well there's description of each functions on http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/understanding-mbti-type-dynamics/ and you can also check the dynamic development it mentioned.

My point is that when you reach some stage in life where you see the importance of your tertiary or fourth function and you can learn to use them so it become more preferred .And this is different from the muscle excise you are talking about.Your function order is set.

 

[EditorOne]

Maybe we're mixed up on nomenclature - you did say "at some level". I'd agree that at the level of the neocortex/personality they are preferences, but not at the Type/cortex lower level.

Yup. In my case I prefer every INTP function there is over the alterative, but have what I call "deployed" the opposite at times for a particular purpose. I prefer to be agreeble and give the impression of agreeing with someone even when I'm merely indicating, in my mind, that "I hear what you say." If the nonsense continues, though, I get fed up, see that my principles are in tatters, and revert to form in one way and leave it in another: I'll run a spear right through whatever stupid idea they're inflating, which is indeed a form of extroversion, and it will be an extroverted expression of principle, ie., "Don't be so fucking stupid." That would seem to me to be moving in and out of preferences.

I would, after all, prefer to be alone reading a book in a pine forest with the bare necessities of life around me, with a trip to a distant town once a month to get
beer, cheese, bacon, cashews and a visit with a willing woman. That set of personality preferences doesn't seem likely to bear fruit any time soon.

 

[Architect]

Yup. In my case I prefer every INTP function there is over the alterative, but have what I call "deployed" the opposite at times for a particular purpose. I prefer to be agreeble and give the impression of agreeing with someone even when I'm merely indicating, in my mind, that "I hear what you say." If the nonsense continues, though, I get fed up, see that my principles are in tatters, and revert to form in one way and leave it in another: I'll run a spear right through whatever stupid idea they're inflating, which is indeed a form of extroversion, and it will be an extroverted expression of principle, ie., "Don't be so fucking stupid." That would seem to me to be moving in and out of preferences.

Yes, and is precisely what I do, and think all of us do. In understanding the theory so far and my own observations I've concluded that type is a low level, unreasonable (in the sense that you can't change it) and non-distinct motivation they can easily be overridden in the higher, cognitive parts of the brain. These overrides can occur in the short term, as per your example, or in the long-term which I did in my life. I was a humanities geek when I was younger and really wanted to be good at it, so I worked hard to overcome my natural tendencies. Back then I thought that they were just simple obstinance, not understanding that they truly were who I was. But I found was that over a long time resisting your natural desires naturally leads to psychic stress and discontentment. Just like Jung's midlife crisis patients.

This also explains why people can have such difficulty determining their type. Being a psychic motivation, it is hardly easy to discern and can be so easily overridden.

I would, after all, prefer to be alone reading a book in a pine forest with the bare necessities of life around me, with a trip to a distant town once a month to get
beer, cheese, bacon, cashews and a visit with a willing woman. That set of personality preferences doesn't seem likely to bear fruit any time soon.

Well other than the bacon and cheese that sounds pretty good. Also I'd exchange a computer for the book.

Its most challenging teaching my young INTP son how to be himself but still an engaged member of humanity.