Can vital status affect the outcome of an experiment?

[0neKiwi]

This question has been bothering me for a while.

Suppose you have 2 frogs. They are the same in every aspect except that one is dead and one is alive. Now suppose you do the same procedure to each frog in the same condition (like pouring a fixed amount of cyanide during exactly noon on the exact same date). Besides the difference that the frog that's alive will die and the dead will stay dead, what other differences could there be? Could the outcome change entirely?

Technically there shouldn't be any difference between the dead and alive besides the fact that those alive function and those dead don't. Can this change the outcome of an experiment? I'm assuming that if it can, the cases are extremely uncommon.

* By experiment, I don't mean those psychological experiments... the results would obviously be different because the dead can't "react."

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

I think you would have to define more rigorously what it means that they are identical except for one of them being dead. A dead frog is altogether a different configuration of atoms than a living one. So the only way in which they are identical is that you ascribe the category 'frog' to both of them. And accordingly, depending on the precision of your instruments and the nature of the experiment, you would be able to infer which one of them was dead prior to the experiment.

 

[QuickTwist]

I was thinking more along the lines of the person doing the experiment. If one is anxious while doing an experiment while another is calm, will it have the same effect?

There was an idea I came across on this site which basically stated that there was an experiment where they shot atoms at a surface with holes in it. Nothing changed in procedure, but the atoms hit different points when shot through the holes.

 

[Hadoblado]

If it's an experiment you need to specify what you're measuring.

 

[0neKiwi]

I think you would have to define more rigorously what it means that they are identical except for one of them being dead.

Say if they grew up in the same environment and had the same genes. Then one died a few minutes prior to the experiment.

If it's an experiment you need to specify what you're measuring.

I'm asking if the outcome can change in general (besides the ones that require the frogs to be alive).

The question (if I was not clear) was that if the only difference between two experiments was that one of the products were dead, would that change the outcome/data of the experiment.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

Well, here is one experiment where you would see a difference:

You put each frog in a separate container and fill the containers with water. 1 hour later you measure the temperature of the water in each container. The one with the dead frog will be cooler.

Boom.

 

[Hadoblado]

It still seems like what your'e asking is unclear.

There are definitely measures you could take that would be different if the frog was alive. As Serac said, temperature is one. Ratio of oxygen to carbon dioxide is probably another. But this seems really obvious. A living frog is different to a dead frog. Everything that comes with the biological process of staying alive will be that much more advanced because it has been living in the confines of the experiment for longer.

Are you talking about something greater than that? Like, are you asking if we can measure the presence/absence of a soul?

Are you talking about the consequences of the frog's perception? It perceives the cyanide and therefore the cyanide is somehow different?

Are you talking about some event that occurs when the frog dies?

Like I said before, all experiments have specifications around what they're trying to measure. There are definitely going to be some things that are different, but are those the things you're interested in?

 

[0neKiwi]

Well, here is one experiment where you would see a difference:

You put each frog in a separate container and fill the containers with water. 1 hour later you measure the temperature of the water in each container. The one with the dead frog will be cooler.

Boom.

Ok, you got me there...

Are you talking about something greater than that? Like, are you asking if we can measure the presence/absence of a soul?

No... How would that be measurable?

Are you talking about the consequences of the frog's perception? It perceives the cyanide and therefore the cyanide is somehow different?

I think that only applies to electrons... so would the cyanide change? And are frogs conscious to perceive that difference?

I was thinking if a scientist were to perform an experiment on some live being, and it happened that it should die, would the experiment results change? Would the experiment itself "change?"
The results would probably not be valid anymore... (even if the results are as should be?)

Or for example, the scientist were to repeat an experiment on some live being. If the end result is the same, even if the live being died prior to the experiment or in the middle of the experiment, does there exist a circumstance that it would be considered valid?

 

[Nebulous]

No. There are a bunch of differences between a living being and a dead one, especially if the dead ones been dead for a long amount of time.

Also depends on how the frog died- I'm pretty sure the fact that the frog died would mean there's something different with it than the living frog
Even if you go back in time to a minute before the frog died, there still could be differences between the two frogs, even though they're both living, bc something has to be the cause of the frogs death
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Very interesting article I think you might enjoy:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/28/can-hypothermia-save-gunshot-victims

Can Hypothermia Save Gunshot Victims?
A new procedure freezes trauma patients who are bleeding out in order to buy time to operate.

....When this patient loses his pulse, the attending surgeon will, as usual, crack his chest open and clamp the descending aorta. But then, instead of trying to coax the heart back into activity, the surgeon will start pumping the body full of ice-cold saline at a rate of at least a gallon a minute. Within twenty minutes (depending on the size of the patient, the number of wounds, and the amount of blood lost), the patient’s brain temperature, measured using a probe in the ear or nose, will sink to somewhere in the low fifties Fahrenheit.

At this point, the patient, his circulatory system filled with icy salt water, will have no blood, no pulse, and no brain activity. He will remain in this state of suspended animation for up to an hour, while surgeons locate the bullet holes or stab wounds and sew them up. Then, after as much as sixty minutes without a heartbeat or a breath, the patient will be resuscitated. A cardiac surgeon will attach a heart-lung bypass machine and start pumping the patient full of blood again, cold, at first, but gradually warming, one degree at a time, over the course of a couple of hours. As soon as the heartbeat returns, perhaps jump-started with the help of a gentle electric shock, and as long as the lungs seem capable of functioning, at least with the help of a ventilator, the patient will be taken off bypass.

..