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Can I have my cake and eat it too?

Beat Mango

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Can I have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible for me to have the depth of thought (and dare I say, feeling) of the great thinkers and philosophers of the past, and still have the happiness and lightness of being that I see others have, and that I had (and since lost) in childhood? It seems that the more I have of the former, the less I have of the latter. But I am driven, regardless, to the former, almost like an addiction almost; I plow towards it without regards for consequence.
 

transformers

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doubt it. ignorance, or at least distraction, seems to be a requirement for happiness.
 

nickgray

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Can I have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible for me to have the depth of thought (and dare I say, feeling) of the great thinkers and philosophers of the past, and still have the happiness and lightness of being that I see others have
Of course not :) And that's a good thing, if you ask me
 

Artifice Orisit

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You can, provided you're willing to do a little freefall down the rabbit hole.
 

cheese

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I believe it's possible.
 

420MuNkEy

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I wouldn't say that a thinking person is unhappy, just happy in more concentrated doses (such as a eureka moment). I don't think such an experience of ecstasy can be achieved (without the use of drugs) by someone who drifts through most of their life copacetically. The only shared experience that comes close is an orgasm, which (imo) still pales in comparison.
 

sniktawekim

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while i am in the same situation, i think its possible, i dont really have a backup argument, and i would say it would probably be rare, but i think its possible.
 

Da Blob

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Can I have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible for me to have the depth of thought (and dare I say, feeling) of the great thinkers and philosophers of the past, and still have the happiness and lightness of being that I see others have, and that I had (and since lost) in childhood? It seems that the more I have of the former, the less I have of the latter. But I am driven, regardless, to the former, almost like an addiction almost; I plow towards it without regards for consequence.

Hmmm, there is a lot of relevant scripture in Ecclesiastics...

Ecclesiatics 1: 16 ...my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.



It is simply a matter of experiences, life is. A problem with thought is that it is just one kind of experience, one state of consciousness amongst many. Sometimes the challenge of thought is simply a matter of finding the right words, in which thoughts can be expressed and shared. It may well be that every has "great" thoughts on occasion, but it is only rare individuals who have the ability to translate those thoughts into words and symbols that retain the "essence" of 'greatness".

At one point of my life I was a slave to words, words were my god. I had faith in words. Words dominated my consciousness. I could not shut of the stream of word/thoughts in my mind and still retain consciousness. However, I was finally able to shut off that particular stream of consciousness and now words appear in my head only by invitation.... It seems as though I understand the utility of words better, now that I am no longer chained to them. Also, being free from words has allowed me to experience the joy and lightness of Being you spoke of.. There is a certain joy in Life, beyond the barrier of word. Experience beyond description..., beyond definitions,... beyond reductionism

States of mind/consciousness seem to have a direct correlation with states of being and I believe that the great thinkers that one admires were not humans limited to one state of being, that one dominated by symbols, but were able, as least temporarily, to experience a different state of being which provided enlightenment of one form or another that they were able to form into derivatives/representations and then translate into symbols that had a common meaning.

That is to say I believe that those who are able to take their own unique experiences of life and thought and somehow are able to share those experiences, and in the process make a common experience from that which unique, have accomplished that which one seems compelled to achieve...

LOL I could have just answered your question with a "Yes"...
 

Scourgexlvii

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It's possible, sure, but, I think our short lifetime is very antagonistic in that respect, preferring to drag us along, without allowing us the time to be happy. I personally believe that to do this would become easier if no conditions were placed on our lives, but school/work/other commitments keep us from being able to enjoy life, as the depth of thought INTPs are known to strive for removes any excess time to enjoy, for only with time can people really become happy, or truly deep in thought, and the time for both is very hard to obtain. That's why, I believe, INTPs generally strive for jobs that allow for creativity (to allow us to think deeply), flexibility (to give us time to think, and time to enjoy life), and high income (to finance all of that 'enjoying life'... That stuff ain't cheap...)
 

Beat Mango

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Hmmm, there is a lot of relevant scripture in Ecclesiastics...

Ecclesiatics 1: 16 ...my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.


It is simply a matter of experiences, life is. A problem with thought is that it is just one kind of experience, one state of consciousness amongst many. Sometimes the challenge of thought is simply a matter of finding the right words, in which thoughts can be expressed and shared. It may well be that every has "great" thoughts on occasion, but it is only rare individuals who have the ability to translate those thoughts into words and symbols that retain the "essence" of 'greatness".

At one point of my life I was a slave to words, words were my god. I had faith in words. Words dominated my consciousness. I could not shut of the stream of word/thoughts in my mind and still retain consciousness. However, I was finally able to shut off that particular stream of consciousness and now words appear in my head only by invitation.... It seems as though I understand the utility of words better, now that I am no longer chained to them. Also, being free from words has allowed me to experience the joy and lightness of Being you spoke of.. There is a certain joy in Life, beyond the barrier of word. Experience beyond description..., beyond definitions,... beyond reductionism

States of mind/consciousness seem to have a direct correlation with states of being and I believe that the great thinkers that one admires were not humans limited to one state of being, that one dominated by symbols, but were able, as least temporarily, to experience a different state of being which provided enlightenment of one form or another that they were able to form into derivatives/representations and then translate into symbols that had a common meaning.

That is to say I believe that those who are able to take their own unique experiences of life and thought and somehow are able to share those experiences, and in the process make a common experience from that which unique, have accomplished that which one seems compelled to achieve...

LOL I could have just answered your question with a "Yes"...
But you still seem to be talking about some great kind of happiness, some form of transcendent existence - I am not talking about that. I am talking about regular happiness, that which comes from engaging with the world on an everyday basis.

Sharing experiences, I agree wholeheartedly - but why, then, do you live on a farm?

Have you tried?
Yes, of course. It goes like this: the more soul nourishment I gain from the deep stuff, the less in common I have to share with the everyday world and the everyday person, which leads to isolation, which leads to my dilemma. The tension between these two drives, one towards this world, and the other beyond it, is almost unbearable.
 

420MuNkEy

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heh. im pretty sure that engaging with the world on an everyday basis does not bring about happiness.
If it did, homeless people would be having a blast :rolleyes:
 

Beat Mango

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I appreciate your humour but I'm pretty sure that not engaging can only bring about misery. Or, a weird delusional happiness, as in the mad hobo laughing to himself continuously, but I wouldn't welcome such a fate anyway.

Homeless people are completely disengaged, cast out, that's why they're homeless.
 

sniktawekim

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I appreciate your humour but I'm pretty sure that not engaging can only bring about misery.

well just because not engaging brings misery (if it does) doesnt mean that engaging brings happiness.
i actually think i could find happiness in a log cabin with a small personal garden as a hermit.
 

Toad

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I'm sorry I'd have to say it's not possible.
 

RubberDucky451

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I experience lightheartedness when doing something i enjoy (Music,time with friends,art) it's rarely a state of mind.
 

Toad

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Wait! I change my mind.

Yes, you can have both. But not at the same time. You first must sacrifice years of hard work to achieve your goals. Then you can finally relax a bit and be "lighthearted" (that word sounds so corny)>
 

echoplex

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I think it's possible, but I'm not sure how to explain why I think that. Whatever it is, I know it has something to do with the maturation of one's sense of humor. One must be able to laugh at the absurdity of the world and still be happy to engage in it. You have to seek insanity, so to speak, because insanity is better when it's not an accident.

In other words, the world is crazy. Your depth of thought has probably figured that out. The kind of happiness you're describing is (and I'm just guessing here) what happens when you stop fighting the craziness of the world. This probably requires you to embrace the irrational, which may seem like suicide to a thinker.
 
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nickgray

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You know what, this thread's name had just now inspired me to make a chocolate cake today! :king-twitter:
 

Da Blob

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I'm sorry I'd have to say it's not possible.
Yes, it is..
However, it is much more difficult that it should be. Society at large discourages "dropping out' of the program. Very few others profit from hermits - unless they write or are productive in unusual ways...
 

Dormouse

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I believe it's possible.

I am happiest while I'm learning. Ignorance, confusion are what depress me.

Basically I feel better about myself when I can be certain of my intellectual competence. When my mind is clear.

That might just be me, though.
 

Beat Mango

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Yes, it is..
However, it is much more difficult that it should be. Society at large discourages "dropping out' of the program. Very few others profit from hermits - unless they write or are productive in unusual ways...
That's just what I mean though - why must a deep thinker be a hermit?
 

Polaris

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Things will never be like they were in your childhood, unless you learn to be like a child again. That is possible. What is everyday happiness? I think there is a difference between feeling isolated in thought and really down. Happiness is overrated, in my opinion. Blob is talking about joy, and joy is wonderful. It is also possible to have that joy, with practice. You have to be ready for it, though, it is quite scary how simple it can be.

Perhaps you need to accept that you are growing as a person and your interest right now is seeking depth of knowledge rather than everyday 'wo-hoo?' Perhaps everyday wo-hoo has lost its sparkle and you are trying to find the answer inside the rabbit-hole? You may need to be a hermit for a while to appreciate other more mundane things?

I am no expert, these are just late night muddled ideas, but I think you are just evolving. The drive you are experiencing is there for a reason. It is a good thing, as long as you can find some balance.

In short: yes. hmmmm........:confused: That was clear as mud....nevermind...
 

AmitaF

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yes, it is possible on different levels, but you seem more driven toward the "happiness" gained from being around people, no?
I think the common thing between 'you' and the 'child you' would be your striving for knowledge, so just find that connection again and you'll find everything interesting, and through that you can bear being around people (if that's what you're seeking) and be entirely perceiving, disregarding/putting aside some of the knowledge you already gained (temporarily), you can always learn new things from people (even the shallowest and dumbest) and by doing that, you can reach an understanding for 'everyday people' and be able to form a 'connection' if you may say, even maybe experience that 'lighthearted' state you want.....but as Toad mentioned, you have to put some of your preformed/gained knowledge aside in order to find a place for your everyday engagement/people.

I don't know if that makes any sense though
 

shoeless

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thinking people can still be optimistic.

there's two sides to every coin. consider the negative, of course. just don't let it rule your life.
 
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