Can ENFJ's value Honesty

[Black Rose]

It seems that I do not seem to worry about disappointing myself but others when in a conversation. I feel the tug on my heart knowing that if they ask for concrete truths instead of abstract ambiguity I am stun'd and anxiety takes over me.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

The words are not your own, you are but the messenger. You owe nothing.

There is an unsatisfied desire here; satisfy it through alternate means.

 

[Black Rose]

The words are not your own, you are but the messenger. You owe nothing.

There is an unsatisfied desire here; satisfy it through alternate means.

I tell the truth when I can but you say to alway's be this way?

If so I need only be around those that respect my honestly, my bluntness.

I felt the sting of it today at church. Conservative Christianity rather than C.S. Luise being preached.

Aslan as savior, as archetype.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

I tell the truth when I can but you say to alway's be this way?

If so I need only be around those that respect my honestly, my bluntness.

I felt the sting of it today at church. Conservative Christianity rather than C.S. Luise being preached.

Aslan as savior, as archetype.

Do not always be any way. You should be able to separate the different aspects of yourself. If abstract ambiguities are not greeted well, don't stress. You need not go further into the details if it is painful to do so, simply add "sorry, I know I'm being rather abstract. I'm not sure how to phrase it better", then continue as you were. Clarify somewhat, but don't feel that you need to.

Separate into your mind two aspects - that which should intuitively be the case, and that which actually is the case. Idealism and Realism. Understand that, as it stands, the world will not live up to measures of Idealism. Rather, you must interact realistically while keeping the ideal as an inner perception, a persistent goal to strive towards.

Briefly detach from your thoughts, leave them to rest in your mind. Focus on direct interactions instead - find a way to communicate which is not so difficult. If you believe that behind Christianity there is a deep and fundamental truth, then this is reason enough to make your way into the church. Play by their rules until you can change the game.

 

[Lobstrich]

I honestly (no pun intended) don't see how people find being honest, a problem. Just be honest.

 

[Bird]

My mother is very evasive. She can tell the truth
while omitting the truth. Quite a feat.

 

[Bryson]

I honestly (no pun intended) don't see how people find being honest, a problem. Just be honest.

And that's because we happen to have the opposite problem.

It seems that I do not seem to worry about disappointing myself but others when in a conversation. I feel the tug on my heart knowing that if they ask for concrete truths instead of abstract ambiguity I am stun'd and anxiety takes over me.

Perhaps you can find a middle ground and tell the truth in a more subtle way?

 

[Lobstrich]

And that's because we happen to have the opposite problem.

The opposite problem? I'm not sure if I understand that correctly. You can't see how I find it a problem that people are dishonest? Are you generally just dishonest and you can't see how that's a problem?

 

[Bryson]

The opposite problem? I'm not sure if I understand that correctly. You can't see how I find it a problem that people are dishonest? Are you generally just dishonest and you can't see how that's a problem?

I should have elaborated. What i mean is, we are more likely to be honest when the best action would be not being honest. I mean, if someone asks you ''Do you think I'm ugly?'', assuming you think the person is ugly, the best course of action, imo, would be hiding the fact or at least finding a middle ground. Fe-doms deal much better with those situations than us. Feel free to disagree though.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

I should have elaborated. What i mean is, we are more likely to be honest when the best action would be not being honest. I mean, if someone asks you ''Do you think I'm ugly?'', assuming you think the person is ugly, the best course of action, imo, would be hiding the fact or at least finding a middle ground. Fe-doms deal much better with those situations than us. Feel free to disagree though.

I'm behind you on this one. One of the areas where I am lacking is tact. People should be able to deal with truth in life.

 

[Hadoblado]

Pffft behind you with a knife maybe... A truth-knife for severing lie-esteem.

I would pick option 3, where you don't at any point say they are not ugly, but you create and communicate a reality in which their ugliness is outshone by their other qualities, if you manage to sell it people tend to trust you unconditionally... just sayin'

 

[Bryson]

I would pick option 3, where you don't at any point say they are not ugly, but you create and communicate a reality in which their ugliness is outshone by their other qualities, if you manage to sell it people tend to trust you unconditionally... just sayin'

How about ''I think the most important is being healthy''?

 

[Dr. Freeman]

^ You would be obviously dodging the question, and that would be take as a yes.

 

[Cavallier]

Hmmm...My problem with being honest all the time is that turns the Lie/Truth discussion into a black and white, right and wrong argument. There is no room for discussion or for intuition or for individual interpretation in that sort of argument.

I've never been in a situation where the answer could be so clear cut. Nothing is ever really black and white. Insisting on being honest in every situation at all times seems like the characteristic of somebody who hasn't matured entirely. Children see the world in Right and Wrong while adults (hopefully) have the maturity to understand sometimes breaking the rules is the appropriate solution. I don't intend to say people who are honest are childish. I'm also not promoting the idea that being deceitful is a good thing. However, I do think being blindly and doggedly honest in every situation seems rather self-righteous and also rather cruel. There must be situations where the kind thing to do is lie. Why be kind as apposed to honest? Because you care about the person in question and your honesty will hurt them needlessly.

Why is not telling the truth wrong in every context? I'm curious for a counter-argument.

 

[Lobstrich]

I should have elaborated. What i mean is, we are more likely to be honest when the best action would be not being honest. I mean, if someone asks you ''Do you think I'm ugly?'', assuming you think the person is ugly, the best course of action, imo, would be hiding the fact or at least finding a middle ground. Fe-doms deal much better with those situations than us. Feel free to disagree though.

Ah right, of course. The best thing to say would indeed to say "no, you're beautiful" But that's where my "holy cow" comes in, as Linsejko put it in another thread (and I'm stealing now, because it made me laugh) And that is honesty. If you say to this person "You are beautiful" you are lying and if you lie to me I have no trust in what you say. A single lie like that would damage your integrity from my point of view and through that hurt my trust in you.

My flaw is that I act as if everyone else has this approach to honesty. A lot of people would just have me say "You are beautiful" and it wouldn't hurt any trust or integrity. And that's probably why Linsejko called it a holy cow, at least that's what I put into "holy cow" because even though others don't care, I can't be dishonest anyway. I would be disgusted with myself, it would hurt my 'personal integrity' so to speak.

"Feel free to disagree" - Well I don't disagree, that's the funny part. I just can't get myself to do what's probably, tactically the best thing to do..

 

[Lobstrich]

Insisting on being honest in every situation at all times seems like the characteristic of somebody who hasn't matured entirely.

Ouch, that hurt. I'm not mature? Oh well, I have this Peter Pan view of the world anyway. Growing up is tremendously overrated.

@ Black/White - Sure things are not always black/white, but truth is. Obviously I don't just say "Yes...." when asked "Am I ugly" because ugly and beautiful are such 'deep' words. Like intelligent. What is "ugly" and what is "intelligence"? That's very subjective. And is not just black/white.

But honesty is. Either you are being honest.... Or you are not.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

Hiding behind social niceties does not at all suggest maturity.

Being mature and being normed are two totally different things.

 

[Black Rose]

I believe in truth and Truth but if you were to ask me I would say I believe in truths/Truths as its own possibility. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, characterized by personality. I wish to be kind to everyone. Not to bruise anyone. Thee complexities of my thoughts need long explanations. I agree everything is not black and white.

Thank you for responding or reading.

 

[Lobstrich]

Hiding behind social niceties does not at all suggest maturity.

Being mature and being normed are two totally different things.

I totally agree with this. But I'm not really sure if this is directed at me or Cavallier.. Or the thread?

 

[Cavallier]

Yow. Those responses were more aggressive than I expected.

First off...

Ouch, that hurt. I'm not mature? Oh well, I have this Peter Pan view of the world anyway. Growing up is tremendously overrated.

Really? Or are you joking because I did not intend to be nasty. It's a joke based on my later comment about not wanting to hurt people you care about right?

Anyway, Peter Pan had a pretty good gig. Plus I agree that being an adult is over-rated.

Hiding behind social niceties does not at all suggest maturity.

Being mature and being normed are two totally different things.

Hmmm...I agree...save not wanting to hurt your friend. That isn't "hiding behind social niceties" at all. I'm not talking about stupid "do you think I'm fat" questions here.

I'll get back to this argument later. I've got to work. Still, I'm not convinced that telling the truth all the time is best.

 

[Lobstrich]

Yow. Those responses were more aggressive than I expected.

First off...



Really? Or are you joking because I did not intend to be nasty. It's a joke based on my later comment about not wanting to hurt people you care about right?

Agressive??

Yes, I was joking. But I don't remember you saying anything about hurting people, so no. It's not a joke about that. Just an 'ordinary joke'

 

[scorpiomover]

Yes. But only when they've evolved.

Sometimes, one has to be cruel to be kind. I've met quite a few women who dated rich and/or good-looking jerks, who only used those women. Their friends wanted to support them, and make them feel better. So they blamed the guys, and said that those women had done nothing wrong. But because their friends never criticised their choices of guys to date, those women continued to date those guys, and continued to be used, and continued to be hurt. Occasionally, someone WAS honest with them. It hurt them at the time. But it made them think long and hard about their choices, and from then on, they made different choices, that led to them getting boyfriends who treated them very nicely, and then they were much happier.

Obviously, it doesn't apply in all cases. If it's a situation that occurs rarely, and where the harm is small, it makes more sense to worry about the person's short-term feelings more than honesty. But if the situation is likely to repeat itself often, or the harm might be serious, such as in matters of serious lack of judgement in driving, then the person will feel much better in the long-term, if you are honest.

 

[Cavallier]

Aggressive??

Yes, I was joking. But I don't remember you saying anything about hurting people, so no. It's not a joke about that. Just an 'ordinary joke'

Good to know.

Back to the discussion:

I've figured out why strict adherence to honesty and truth worries me: It all comes back to religion.

As a kid I was put through Bible school like many children. In the Christian mythology you are expected to never lie. The smallest lie will put you in disfavor with God. You go to hell if you lie. You are also expected to maintain a childlike innocence that involves seeing the world in black and white. There is no room for interpretation because when you are dealing with absolutes, like God, you can't afford to risk making the wrong choice. You might interpret the situation incorrectly. You must simply always tell the truth. This seemed like a pretty huge weakness to me. In order to keep yourself in favor with God and out of hell you have to put your brain/intellect on the shelf. So when I heard my pastor say "keep a childlike innocence and always adhere to the truth" what I heard was "Don't risk thinking! Don't even think about thinking!". This obviously didn't jive with my internal sense of right and wrong so I rejected the idea that always being truthful in every situation is best.

When I come across someone who argues that truthfulness is always the most appropriate course of action I wonder why they think so. I can't help but wonder if it's related to religion on their part. Yet, I've known many people who aren't religious or even reject religion entirely and still follow strictly to only telling the truth.

I know that being deceptive is it's own problem. I'm not blind to the fact that truthfulness is generally the right decision. However, I wonder if it's not a religious thing then why is Truthfulness and Honesty the best cause of action in every situation? I'm very curious.

I should probably make this into it's own thread.

Edit: Also, I'm not religious. I'm not exactly anti-religious. I just don't think religion is useful for much. I wanted to make that clear for those of you who don't know me very well.

 

[NoMan]

Lots of NFJs in my life. My grandmother, who raised me; My girlfriend's mother, who I'm close with; a girl I adored when I was younger, but never got through to, who is now one of my best friends.

They all seem to have trouble with objectivity, not honesty. They say what they mean and they mean what they say, even if it's sometimes draped in metaphors and euphemisms.

However, they often aren't able to grasp that just because something feels right doesn't mean it is right. NFJs are the kind of parents who will say "Because I say so," and discourage skepticism in their young ones: The kind of parent-in-law who will be very skeptical and barbed about you at first, but then will accept you almost blindly from then-on: The kind of girl who knows you're not right for her despite the fact that you have similar interests, get along great, and don't find each other unattractive, yet won't be able to tell you why she knows such things.

NFJs are very passionate and protective about the things that orbit around them. Convincing them to be objective is hard, because if you do it on objective terms, they'll dismiss you. If you do it on subjective terms that they like, they won't truly understand objectivity. The best way for an NTP to handle them imo is to just be attentive, jokey, not too harsh on their lack of objectivity, and try to peer pressure them (yes, I mean it) into getting them to do what's right, if you think you can adequately conclude such a thing. They tend to be gullible. Peer pressure and subjectivity are their language when it comes to things they aren't super-experienced with or opinionated about due to experience. They are people people people.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

They all seem to have trouble with objectivity, not honesty.

Yup!

They are people people people.

That was fun to parse

 

[ked]

NFs value honesty but they can't make it a priority over their need of good feelings. They need harmony as they live in feelings while for the NTs it's possible to pick the truth over emotions as they don't live in feelings, though if they listen their heart and other feelings, they should not push the truth as not only will it generally do no good but is not fitting to the feelers who would care less about the truth as they live in feelings, that being their life and meaning and the truth is secondary. One needs to see it from the feelers' point of view to understand them better. The STs also have nf, and the SF is a feeler dominant. Only the NT can handle the truth, and even then it's just maybe.