Bronto's ban

[Cherry Cola]

The point is though, that Bronto wasn't banned for his comment - he was banned for rendering the moderator's attempts at control impotent. He denied them the validation they sought of having done their job. I don't actually care that he's banned, I'm just pointing out a thing. Mostly for the benefit of people wondering why he was "suddenly" banned for a comment that was much less aggressive than what others or even he has made in the past - because it's important to understand that his comment isn't what got him banned.

The thing that got him banned was the fact that he denied Fukyo the validation she sought when she told him to stop behaving that way. If he'd said, "OK" and continued his behaviour anyway, he wouldn't have been banned, but because he said, "No" he got banned.

It's a common thing that occurs in interactions in real life and online, and I think at worst what I'm saying here is an interesting thing to note. Whether other people are upset or don't find it interesting doesn't concern me.

It's a hallmark trait of bad moderating afaik. Such assumed abstract power relationships should not even be visualized by moderators. It is needless.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Is it just me, or is Bronto posting here via Cherry Cola's account?

Hey I can post on my own!

 

[redbaron]

I know it's a real thing. I'm familiar with the general theory and not denying the dynamic exists. I was saying what we see here is explainable by other means.

Also, power here is worth almost nothing - certainly no money, and little social reward - so I'm not sure why those 'in power' would be so motivated to keep it. The paradigm may not apply as easily here.

I agree modding is inconsistent but I suspect that's largely because they're unpaid and unmotivated, with some bias towards favoured members thrown in.

The motivation to maintain systematic authority doesn't require extra motivation. In any environment where such authority is challenged, its maintenance is a basic necessity for its continued existence. It's a thing that is immediately apparent to anyone whose been in a position of such authority. I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't had the (dis)pleasure of holding some significant amount of such authority to actually recognize that to maintain it requires a level of stubbornness and resolve in equal or greater measure to whatever opposes it.

Haven't you ever wondered why parents justify their stupid parenting with, "I'M YOUR PARENT!!!" with such utter conviction while every non-parent sits around thinking what a fucking retard that human must be?

It's because such a proclamation is a descent into sheer emotional appeal, devoid of rationality - the parent as the authority in this system is willing to go to this length to preserve authority, whereas the child typically, is not.

This is as far as I'm concerned, an almost automatic and unconscious response that everyone can and often will do. When people say, "his promotion went to his head" or, "being a mum has made her a know it all" or whatever other thing people say, this is the exact thing being referred to and its significance and impact on people's everyday dealings is sorely underestimated by most.

 

[redbaron]

It's a hallmark trait of bad moderating afaik. Such assumed abstract power relationships should not even be visualized by moderators. It is needless.

It's honestly very normal.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Yeah man the world fucking sucks. Duh.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I know this ban has affected many of you deeply. That your souls cry out for justice; for a reason to the madness of his demise. 'How could this happen?!' you shout to the heavens. I know that you're wounded and grieving, but it's time to move on. These things happen. I'm sorry, but Bronto is not coming back. You have to accept that and dry your tears. You can hold bronto's unpleasant memory close to your bosom, but it was simply bronto's time. Mods work in mysterious ways.

It's time now, to heal. Even bronto, may he rest in peace, wouldn't want to see you all like this.

...
Oh who am I kidding. He was a sucker for overlong dramatic nonsense, never ever letting things go, and failing to perceive the obvious. I guess you guys are making him proud? This thread is a fitting tribute to his memory after all. Carry on.



He's still dead though. That means he lost.

All this talking leads up to nothing, so shut up and let me do u in slow mo, let's drop the framerate baby

 

[Cherry Cola]

I know this ban has affected many of you deeply. That your souls cry out for justice; for a reason to the madness of his demise. 'How could this happen?!' you shout to the heavens. I know that you're wounded and grieving, but it's time to move on. These things happen. I'm sorry, but Bronto is not coming back. You have to accept that and dry your tears. You can hold bronto's unpleasant memory close to your bosom, but it was simply bronto's time. Mods work in mysterious ways.

It's time now, to heal. Even bronto, may he rest in peace, wouldn't want to see you all like this.

...
Oh who am I kidding. He was a sucker for overlong dramatic nonsense, never ever letting things go, and failing to perceive the obvious. I guess you guys are making him proud? This thread is a fitting tribute to his memory after all. Carry on.



He's still dead though. That means he lost.

If you're right you win, if youre wrong you lose. Sometimes when youre right you die, if that should mean you lose, then losing and winning are not to have any bearing upon right and wrong.

Seeing as the deciding factor of what makes a winner or loser is in the hand of thy and thine it can't be much of a game in the first place.

 

[Sinny91]

Lol, the forum's missing a chunk of nonsensical bollox, and so "Cherry" volunteers to fill the void..

..You might have found love in Bronto, and he might be the only fix that you need... But not everybody has found their Bronto, youknow?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

All this talking leads up to nothing, so shut up and let me do u in slow mo, let's drop the framerate baby

No thanks.

If you're right you win, if youre wrong you lose. Sometimes when youre right you die, if that should mean you lose, then losing and winning are not to have any bearing upon right and wrong.

Seeing as the deciding factor of what makes a winner or loser is in the hand of thy and thine it can't be much of a game in the first place.

Whether he won or not; no one here is an actual freedom fighter. It's all just ego and boredom.

 

[Rook]

Even if we want bronto back, he's gorn. If the mods decide to rescind a ban, that creates a scenario where the populace has gained greater influence, thereby affecting mod bargaining power and authority.

I am not sure whether the minority or the majority want bronto back, but in the end, life is life etc. etc. things go on and so forth.

The only thing I have to say is that I hope the gaggle of soft-skinned gorms that have infested the forum of late does not lead to oppression of the deviant in order to placate the mundane.
That scenario is not fully in effect at this moment, it is merely hinted at and that is the highest level it must reach.

Nothing more to say I guess, in the end the mods are still amusing humans, at least they are not as boring as some of the bipeds that parasitize on this place.

Spoiler

Mgrrrrrrhamph.

Carry on.

 

[bvanevery]

1. It's nor a matter of not being able to see other people's perspectives. It's a matter of whether people's perspectives are realistic. I can understand the perspective of a fanatical white supremacist, but understanding them doesn't make them any less deranged.

I've given you my own data points on Bronto. I'm also aware of his drama with Sinny, although I didn't follow it closely. Furthermore the moderators claim he mouthed off to them, and from my perspective the claim is credible. I see nothing unreasonable about him being banned at all. I usually inhabit forums where people are moderated or banned for far less than what I see happening on INTPforum. Those are forums run by adults, not script kiddies on power trips. For instance what you think of as "acceptable" behavior would last about 5 seconds on WetCanvas.com.

I really think the disconnect here, is you don't seem to appreciate that some websites more closely emulate "real world" standards of civil behavior. Consider also legal behavior. If you say certain harassing things to people in a grocery store, then store security and then the police are going to make you leave. In handcuffs if necessary. The virtual "can't reach out and punch you" creates a broader spectrum of opinions of what people find acceptable. It doesn't much happen that way in real life. (420munkey would chime in differently at this point if he could, but he's an outlier.)

Common sense says that "clueless fool" isn't and never has been so heinously insulting that it warrants a permanent ban.

That's a strawman, and at this long point in the debate you know it.

2. Bronto hasn't done it "over and over again" to a degree that multiple other's haven't.

Maybe the moderator system is complaint driven. That could account for what you perceive as variable enforcement. If not that many people complain about someone, they may get more rope.

For instance, I didn't complain about 420munkey a month ago when I jolly well could have. At the time, I was more interested in trying to persuade him to desist, or to understand why he posts the way he does. Now that I understand it, and know that he's intractable, there's no reason to avoid getting the mods involved. So I did. It seems to have triggered a ban that he had coming for other reasons.

3. I'm not wedded to any idea. That's a red herring. It's a fact that the moderator-given reasons for bans, of "discouraging X, encouraging Y" are demonstrably false.

You haven't demonstrated any such thing.

Moderator actions and ban choice is entirely inconsistent and doesn't align with stated intentions and reasons.

How "P" are you?

The only difference between others and Bronto is that when Bronto is told not to do something, he says no and continues to do it. Others say OK, but still continue to do it.

Clearly if you "spit in a moderator's face," you are likely to get banned faster than if you don't. Is this rocket science to you? Do you have issues with authority in real life, that make you not understand that this is the way it is? And I do think the others that "continue to do it," eventually get to the end of the rope they've been given.

Anyways, I'm not a moderator, and I want people like that gone. How do you explain my view on it? You'll have trouble inventing an explanation in terms of moderators. I'll give you my explanation: I want undesirable behavior curbed, especially when such behavior is at my expense. Someone has to have the power to get rid of people. So I agree to have them do it on our behalf, so long as they're not abusing their power.

If I thought the mods were acting like creeps, I would say so. For the record I didn't care for one of the mod's attitudes towards me once upon a time in a forum debate, as I thought he was "putting on his moderator hat" to mess with the debate. But it wasn't that big a rip in the scheme of things, didn't result in anything happening to me, and it ended up being a "no hard feelings" thing in the mid term. I will give that mod some credit that he was somewhat self-aware of his behavior when I called him on it.

Mods let themselves be manipulated because they don't actually care about behaviour.

This sort of claim could be used to explain just about anything. Someone doesn't agree with you? Oh they must be manipulated.

If someone complains, they have to deal with it. It's tiresome.

That's what "complaint driven system" means. It happens in real life too. I live out of my car in Asheville. The cops aren't generally interested in bothering with homeless people living out of their cars. But if someone complains, they act. The art of parking, is picking places where people aren't going to complain.

To return to the forum analogy, running one's fool mouth any way one likes, is not the way to avoid moderator attention.

Would it satisfy you to realize that "pissing off posters" and "pissing off mods" is some kind of fuzzy probabilistic decaying function where eventually, you can be certain it will reach a resolution? i.e. permaban.

Anyways I've laid out the model. You have your own model. If you can't incorporate it, I won't flog a dead horse about it. Bronto's gone for good, 420munkey's gone at least for now, and none of this is a big mystery or grievance. Yeah, I'm unsubscribing, I couldn't possibly lay things out any more clearly than I already have. Some people are compulsively stubborn about their model and can't accept that any other model exists. If their model is harmless, no big deal, just don't waste your breath anymore trying to persuade them. If it's harmful, report their posts until they get banned.

 

[bvanevery]

I am not sure whether the minority or the majority want bronto back, but in the end, life is life etc. etc. things go on and so forth.

I don't want Bronto back right now. Regardless of whether I think the young man has any positive qualities, I want to see him take the consequences for his own actions, and grow up. I wouldn't consider lifting a ban on a guy like Bronto for at least 3 months, and 6..12 months is appropriate for some people.

When that much time passes, the banned person has a lot to consider about whether a forum, and their previous behavior in it, has any remaining role in their life. I got banned from the CMake support mailing list in 2008, I think. I have not been back. No intention of regularly interacting with those people ever again. I've avoided using their software as well, but sometimes other open source projects have used it and I've filed bugs in the CMake bug tracker. The days when I cared much at all about the future of CMake are long since over.

I've been given so much shit in certain indie game developer forums, that I left before they were probably going to ban me anyways. Bunch of fucking children they were. Totally toxic. INTPforum is pretty good by comparison. You don't have the dynamic of mindless haters jumping on a bandwagon to beat a perceived threat into the ground.

I put a lot of effort into trying to turn the IGDA forums and a couple of their SIGs into something civilized. Wrote up Constitutions, got people to vote to approve them. It didn't work out. An authoritarian structure prevailed and people of my ilk got run out of the association. Lots of drama about bylaws and association purpose and what not. Totally dysfunctional. Well, it can burn.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

The Consequences:

Entropy has been accelerated. This place will die a little sooner than it would've have. Ergo: nothing out of the ordinary, it's just the way this place is run.

Lol. Entropy is constant as far as anything that happens on this forum is concerned.

You probably meant that entropy increased, actually it didn't. Bronto will do other things and will continue to increase entropy elsewhere in the world (if he were to drop dead which I don't want to happen, but hypothetically speaking), if Bronto died the moment he was banned then the overall entropy increase would be postponed as the energy stored within Bronto's corpse would slowly make its way into other living beings who'd end up burning it and thus wasting.

As to the overall perspective, the more we talk about Bronto the more we expend energy so the more the entropy increases over things past, rather than spending said energy to... I don't know... finding ways of obtaining more efficient ways of generating energy and lowering the entropy increments per action taken?

This theoretically would have to involve stealing matter and energy from nearby systems of reference and insulating our own bubble against heat death. Very long term strategy I must say, potentially takes billions of years to become significant, still relevant.

Considering this forum, it is undecidable whether it's not the case that other members will become more prolific or there are new niches that opened due to removal of Bronto that will sustain new members who'll expand this place's lifespan.

Not sure there's anything specific we should do with our energy instead.

I know, this was a rhetorical statement, but then why was it incorrect?

Probably because it was meant to hide the fact that you wanted to somehow express your will for having Bronto stay here...

 

[Lot]

I want Prince and Michael Jackson to come back to life

 

[Sinny91]

I want Prince and Michael Jackson to come back to life

Seconded.

 

[EditorOne]

"i would think "what an american brick, he puts people on the ground for talking shit in real life, no wonder he is happy to get bronto banned online and he thinks he is being "civil" for it ... yeah right."

I haven't felt the need to smack someone since 11th grade, which is quite a while now. What I was trying to illustrate was the reaction provoked by aggression.

Besides which, there's a thing called a "fighting words" doctrine in law. In very simplified terms, it says sometimes people say something so egregious and offensive that the only normal response is to throw a punch. It is not exculpatory but does mitigate judgment.

Meanwhile, Red Baron, well said.

 

[Grayman]

The mods should just quit. You are all fucked up in the head. Too much cynical bullshit and total lack of empathy. Not everyone has a hard heart or fully/overly developed confidence. Dont fuck with people who dont want to be involved in that shit. Fuck with anyone who does. That is the golden rule of society. Archie didn't want it and he didn't deserve it. Bronto broke that rule.

Before I leave, I know this forum contains the most intelligent assholes in the world, I want you all to know you're all pieces of shit.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

I'm liking you more and more. Don't leave!

Also:

This one time at ban camp..

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I want Prince and Michael Jackson to come back to life

I miss Bowie more than either of them, tbh.

Also Robin Williams.

Archie . . . didn't deserve it.

That's arguable

 

[Cherry Cola]

You probably meant that entropy increased, actually it didn't. Bronto will do other things and will continue to increase entropy elsewhere in the world (if he were to drop dead which I don't want to happen, but hypothetically speaking), if Bronto died the moment he was banned then the overall entropy increase would be postponed as the energy stored within Bronto's corpse would slowly make its way into other living beings who'd end up burning it and thus wasting.

As to the overall perspective, the more we talk about Bronto the more we expend energy so the more the entropy increases over things past, rather than spending said energy to... I don't know... finding ways of obtaining more efficient ways of generating energy and lowering the entropy increments per action taken?

This theoretically would have to involve stealing matter and energy from nearby systems of reference and insulating our own bubble against heat death. Very long term strategy I must say, potentially takes billions of years to become significant, still relevant.

Considering this forum, it is undecidable whether it's not the case that other members will become more prolific or there are new niches that opened due to removal of Bronto that will sustain new members who'll expand this place's lifespan.

Not sure there's anything specific we should do with our energy instead.

I know, this was a rhetorical statement, but then why was it incorrect?

Probably because it was meant to hide the fact that you wanted to somehow express your will for having Bronto stay here...



1. I did not. And Entropy is not constant given we view the forum as if a microcosm.
2. Exactly, he is no longer here to increase the complexity required of whatever alorigtm describes this place, his absense making the sum total more uniform in nature than before, his departure thus having accelerated the progress of entropy, gee thanks again mods!

3. Stop using mod powers to further entropy, reinvite Bronto. Reverse the process, seal the wound. That is all. What you're babbling on about clearly violates ockham's razor a million times over.

4. Yes, about Niches, Brontos was an effective counter to another such which will remained unnamed in the context of this post so as for its author to not commit bannable offence in saying it sucks. I hope? The increased likelihood of this other niche becoming more prolific does not in my eyes consistute reason for banning Bronto, it is to the contrary.

5. It was minterpreted and I never endevoured to hide such an obvious desire as I am not given to waste on the futile.

 

[Cherry Cola]

The mods should just quit. You are all fucked up in the head. Too much cynical bullshit and total lack of empathy. Not everyone has a hard heart or fully/overly developed confidence. Dont fuck with people who dont want to be involved in that shit. Fuck with anyone who does. That is the golden rule of society. Archie didn't want it and he didn't deserve it. Bronto broke that rule.

Before I leave, I know this forum contains the most intelligent assholes in the world, I want you all to know you're all pieces of shit.

Woah man that was passionate, you wanna hit some ranch?

[BIMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/asfix/repository//8a250ba136ee324a0137045b3d7601ca/thumbnail_1078370952115318049.jpg[/BIMG]

 

[Lot]

I miss Bowie more than either of them, tbh.

Also Robin Williams.

Bowie hasn't made anything recently that was worth while, and I don't find Robin Williams all that funny.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Woah man that was passionate, you wanna hit some ranch?

[BIMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/asfix/repository//8a250ba136ee324a0137045b3d7601ca/thumbnail_1078370952115318049.jpg[/BIMG]

Sup brotendo, mind if I hit that before heading to the quad?
#legalizeranch

Bowie hasn't made anything recently that was worth while, and I don't find Robin Williams all that funny.

I actually never really thought Robin Williams was all that funny either. I always liked his sincerity, though. I watched Dead Poets Society the day he died and it made me cry.

 

[kora]

Jesus is it that hard to be basically decent to people you talk to

 

[Tannhauser]

Hey guys, i just wanted to let you know this one thing; I dont find Robin Williams funny. I think he is overrated.

 

[crippli]

I loved Bronto, even though I hated Bronto!

I don't get the none complience argument. I had argument, and Bronto calmed down.

But other than that, what can I say. Rules got broken, what can moderators do. This is a mechanical thing to me.

The shit is a 7 year old member, X number of thousands posts, shouldn't happen...

 

[onesteptwostep]

Personally, I'm not sure whether or not all the mods were in on this when the ban happened, but for a member like bronto to be axed at the will of one moderator seems hasty. There were cases when has happened in the past, but that was understandable because the user was new, bronto however is not. He was a part of the community, whether one liked it or not. IDK ふきょ-san, the choice was made but maybe you could reconsider?

--

Analytically I think the problem more lies in the INTP's inability to defend others. When the post was made no one seemed to defend the insulted, because, for whatever reason we thought the derision was just childish banter. If there had been more of a social interplay within the thread, the ban might have not occurred. The sociality of the forum is of course not in the responsibility of the mods, but at this moment the onus seems to be at the person with the power.

 

[Intolerable]

attacking zerkalo in her intro thread

I know I shouldn't laugh but this did it. I remember my own first conversation with Bronto. I recall it being aggressive.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I just went back and took a look at Zerk's intro thread and, unless it was deleted/split, Bronto didn't even post in it

 

[onesteptwostep]

He did. I think it's in one of the trashbins of the forum somewhere. Bronto got along with zerk though, so it really isn't/wasn't a problem.

 

[redbaron]

I know I shouldn't laugh but this did it. I remember my own first conversation with Bronto. I recall it being aggressive.

Would you say it was...Intolerable?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Self-respect isn't a matter of belonging or self-control, but a reflection of one's mindfulness and value hierarchy. Isolation doesn't actually address distraction or one's propensity to be distracted. That requires real, conscious, internal change and quite simply the creation or discovery of something more interesting, engaging, sustaining, and dynamic.

Very well put, I agree. Basically a harmonisation of internal drives with a healthy regimen for the sustenance of one's needs. It is what later on gives rise to apparent self-respect in the person and by extension to apparent self-control.

The problem is you guys are applying analysis to a heuristic.

Exactly. Moderation of this forum follows a summation of personal heuristics of every admin, which in turn emerge as seemingly arbitrary and unjustified decisions to the observer. Especially considering the fact that people who comment on mod behaviour have very limited information about what's going on behind the scenes and with the direct communications and what is significant when the decision is made.

From the reports the mods had a history with Bronto, warning him to back off multiple times and not seeing it happen. So at some point they decided to to nuke Russia. Without having been one of them I don't see how anybody can adequately second guess their decision process, pro or con.

Indeed.

To be frank, bronto was perma banned more than a year ago, the actual ban was a natural followup to what was inevitably going to happen. It was stated several times in admin discussion that he's going to be removed if he doesn't cooperate and here it is, what a surprise.

 

[Intolerable]

Would you say it was...Intolerable?

No. INTPf is very tame in comparison to some of the places I have posted.

 

[Cherry Cola]

@Kuu @Blarraun

Have you changed your minds yet, ridiculous powertripping morons acting explicitly and directly against the interest of the community you claim to serve?

(Please don't ban CC, he's innocent.)

/Bronto

 

[TBerg]

I guess we got this far without a total civil war.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Yes, i agree. Fuck stupid idiots. Precisely.

 

[Sinny91]

@Kuu @Blarraun

Have you changed your minds yet, ridiculous powertripping morons acting explicitly and directly against the interest of the community you claim to serve?

(Please don't ban CC, he's innocent.)

/Bronto

LOL - Move on you faggot.

 

[Seteleechete]

I still want to see someone permabanned keep creating new accounts because I dislike all bans on cheer principle...

 

[Cherry Cola]

LOL - Move on you faggot.

Oh, the total fucking idiot! Much obliged

 

[Cherry Cola]

I still want to see someone permabanned keep creating new accounts because I dislike all bans on cheer principle...

Maybe if the dickhead shit cunts weren't constantly fucking things up, things wouldn't be so fucked up.

 

[Lot]

This thread is still a thing?

 

[Cherry Cola]

This thread is still a thing?

Yes, because i bumped. Because the ban is still wrong. The only ones who agree with the ban are losers who lost the argument to me too often or have ridiculous personal problems with my opinions. People like Sinny91 - who lost every argument she entered in her life, but particularly to me - and Jennywocky - who simply couldn't accept that i considered transsexuality to be a mental disease even after i'd repeatedly clarified that this was meant as a technical explication and not a moral judgment, and proceeded to start stupid drama. Btw redbaron was also extremely active and outraged in that debate but has since swallowed his fucking pride because he realizes i am awesome and i belong in this place, because he's not a completely and irrevocably warped and twisted mongrel shitlord unlike the others i mentioned.

Kuu and Blarraun really shouldn't be modding this forum. It's in sharp decline, communication reducing to theatrics. Why the fuck would we elect leaders who are passionate chiefly about boredom and manners? What does it even have to do with "INTP forum"? We all came here to be ourselves for once and we must eradicate the fakes who try to make this place just another boring adult backstabbing circlejerk charade.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Why the fuck would we elect leaders

I don't think we did

Which is kind of the point, I guess.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I don't think we did

Which is kind of the point, I guess.

No...

But we can tell them they're not doing their job, ask them to leave and make it clear.

 

[TBerg]

This may be the first case of virtual demon possession.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Stop joking around, i know you agree. You're just too polite.

 

[Reluctantly]

I fuckin' knew it. Bronto and Cherry are the same person.

Only one thing left to do. UNLEASH THE KRAKEN!!!

 

[Cherry Cola]

I fuckin' knew it. Bronto and Cherry are the same person.

Only one thing left to do. UNLEASH THE KRAKEN!!!

No way, we're even different types.

That doesn't mean we can't unleash the kraken, however. The kraken is a sublime entity beyond the existential scope of even such brilliant souls as me and CC

 

[Seteleechete]

No way, we're even different types.

That doesn't mean we can't unleash the kraken, however. The kraken is a sublime entity beyond the existential scope of even such brilliant souls as me and CC

How are you supposed to unleash something beyond your existential scope?

 

[kora]

I like all the mods, yet this dramatic political revolution of INTPf led by Bronto's narcissistic idealistic tirade and surprising return is rather exciting and I am such a sucker for rebellion, it pleases me on a gut level. Ah, it takes me too long to form opinions, I am a slow thinker and cannot jump on bandwagons, I will simply watch from the sidelines cynically, i shall forever be the donkey.