Breaking Bad

[Jennywocky]

Sorry, hated every minute of it. I can't stand to watch a television show where the main character is just a greedy f*** with no morales or anything.

I enjoyed it at the start when he said he wanted the money to give to his family after his death, after that there were two key events that drove me to hate the show:

1. When he tried to all but rape Skylar (that's his wife, yes?) in the kitchen and,
2. When he watched as Jesse's girlfriend choked to death after OD'ing. He had the chance to save her life and he didn't. That disgusted me.

I can appreciate the acting and writing talent in it, but as far as I'm concerned the show is dry and baseless. I have zero time for the plot at all. I also thinks it's way over hyped, especially where I live.

But hey, just me. I watched this when the seasons first came out, so I won't remember specifics. I only really remember the opinions I formulated on it. It's pointless asking me to justify it with certain examples.

Like I said though, if you enjoy it all the more power to you!

Interesting. So you see it as two static moments in his character, rather than caring much about observing the shifting development up and down and wondering whether he can actually redeem himself.

And yeah, #2 especially above was pretty awful. He didn't just not save Jane, it was indirectly even his fault -- he came in and shook Jesse, knocking her out of "safety" position onto her back from her side, and that was when she started to vomit and then asphyxiated; she specifically was on her side (as stated earlier) to avoid that kind of outcome.

That's the kind of moral choice that you can't really walk away from afterwards. Aside from the impact on Jane and her dad, my heart broke listening to Jesse afterwards... and Walt pretended he didn't know anything. At a later time, I thought he might actually admit to what he did to Jesse, but then never did tell him... at least not where I'm at in Season 4.

I admit, it's a pretty dark show... and I think the title is actually descriptive of where it's going... you're basically watching a "normal" guy disintegrate into something terrible, starting from good intentions. And it usually a bunch of little steps along the way, little drops in resolve and in character that eventually lead to you doing something big and horrible. Walt has a daughter, and he had just spend time in the bar with a stranger (who actually was Jane's dad), and yet he did nothing to save her shortly after, despite all of that conversation. Could Walt have done that in the beginning of the show? No. He couldn't even kill Crazy 8 at first, until the guy tried to kill him. The road to hell takes many steps, often just little ones, but eventually you get there.Even now, Walt is still capable of doing good (he tries to protect Hank, he risks himself to save Jesse, he wants to make his kids happy, etc.) but he's also capable of self-interest and sometimes despicable acts, that he then tries to justify. I think it's a cautionary tale.

 

[Cavalli]

Yeah exactly. I don't mind stories of redemption I just didn't feel that he was trying to redeem himself and every episode after that I just found myself hating him. Like I said I didn't remember the specifics (like how he moved her from the safety position) but that just reinforces my standing.


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[Imaginary Numb3r]

Yeah exactly. I don't mind stories of redemption I just didn't feel that he was trying to redeem himself and every episode after that I just found myself hating him. Like I said I didn't remember the specifics (like how he moved her from the safety position) but that just reinforces my standing.


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Yeah I can really understand what you mean. I just finished watching the series a couple of days ago and remember hating him many, many times for being so greedy and dangerous... but in a way I could always understood him.

To be honest, I was disappointed by the end of the series but it was totally worth watching it because it added a lot to every key character.

In my opinion the series had it's best moments in the beginning (where they only survive because of Walts crazy knowledge or the Hydrofluoric acid thing, lol) and around the time where they fought against Gus.

 

[Minuend]

Sorry, hated every minute of it. I can't stand to watch a television show where the main character is just a greedy f*** with no morales or anything.

I enjoyed it at the start when he said he wanted the money to give to his family after his death, after that there were two key events that drove me to hate the show:

1. When he tried to all but rape Skylar (that's his wife, yes?) in the kitchen and,
2. When he watched as Jesse's girlfriend choked to death after OD'ing. He had the chance to save her life and he didn't. That disgusted me.

I can appreciate the acting and writing talent in it, but as far as I'm concerned the show is dry and baseless. I have zero time for the plot at all. I also thinks it's way over hyped, especially where I live.

But hey, just me. I watched this when the seasons first came out, so I won't remember specifics. I only really remember the opinions I formulated on it. It's pointless asking me to justify it with certain examples.

Like I said though, if you enjoy it all the more power to you!

This show isn't about the usual moral crap we get from tv and films, and that's a good thing because most series and movies are crap. This show isn't about some idealistic person that perfectly overcomes an obstacle and turns the situation into a happy ending. This show is more about characters, what motivates and drives people into the darker aspects of life.

We are not supposed to "cheer" him on.

The rape attempt, if I remember correctly so far back, was about Walter feeling himself loosing control of his life, feeling less valued and disrespected.

And that's the deal with a lot of the darker things of the show, they are motivated by certain feelings and thoughts of the characters. They reflect how far different people are willing to go, what makes people different.

That's one aspect of the show, anyway. The degree of desperation, anger, futility are themes not often covered quite this raw in series and films.

I don't really see this as a show of redemption or a cautionary one.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yeah I can really understand what you mean. I just finished watching the series a couple of days ago and remember hating him many, many times for being so greedy and dangerous... but in a way I could always understood him.

That's where I am.

I don't like him, a lot of the time... but I really do understand him. I actually understand Skyler too, though. And Jesse. They're all just very different.

In my opinion the series had it's best moments in the beginning (where they only survive because of Walts crazy knowledge or the Hydrofluoric acid thing, lol) and around the time where they fought against Gus.

Walt's a trip, with the stuff he could pull out of his ass to save their skins.


I thought people's responses to Skyler were kind of amazing in their negativity. Here are Anna Gunn's comments:

...I was unprepared for the vitriolic response she inspired. Thousands of people have 'liked' the Facebook page 'I Hate Skyler White'. Tens of thousands have 'liked' a similar Facebook page with a name that cannot be printed here. When people started telling me about the 'hate boards' for Skyler on the Web site for AMC, the network that broadcasts the show, I knew it was probably best not to look, but I wanted to understand what was happening. A typical online post complained that Skyler was a 'shrieking, hypocritical harpy' and didn't 'deserve the great life she has'. 'I have never hated a TV-show character as much as I hate her', one poster wrote. The consensus among the haters was clear: Skyler was a ball-and-chain, a drag, a shrew, an 'annoying bitch wife'...

As an actress, I realize that viewers are entitled to have whatever feelings they want about the characters they watch. But as a human being, I'm concerned that so many people react to Skyler with such venom. Could it be that they can't stand a woman who won't suffer silently or 'stand by her man'? That they despise her because she won't back down or give up? Or because she is, in fact, Walter's equal?...

At some point on the message boards, the character of Skyler seemed to drop out of the conversation, and people transferred their negative feelings directly to me. The already harsh online comments became outright personal attacks. One such post read: 'Could somebody tell me where I can find 'Anna Gunn' so I can kill her?' Besides being frightened (and taking steps to ensure my safety), I was also astonished: how had disliking a character spiraled into homicidal rage at the actress playing her?

But I finally realized that most people's hatred of Skyler had little to do with me and a lot to do with their own perception of women and wives. Because Skyler didn't conform to a comfortable ideal of the archetypical female, she had become a kind of Rorschach test for society, a measure of our attitudes toward gender. I can't say that I have enjoyed being the center of the storm of Skyler hate. But in the end, I'm glad that this discussion has happened, that it has taken place in public and that it has illuminated some of the dark and murky corners that we often ignore or pretend aren't still there in our everyday lives.

While I still have a season to go, I find Skyler more palatable than Walt at this point. She didn't even ask to be in the situation she ended up in, she simply made do while trying to balance her needs, the needs of her family, and Walt's needs.

I think early in the series she was kind of sheltered and held certain preconceptions about what "good people" were, and when Walt veered out of the socially endorsed roles or did things she didn't understand, she reacted poorly... but once she got past the initial shock, she typically bucked up, took charge, and moved forward. In some ways, she was more "practically" intelligent than Walt, whose intelligence was more idealized; as she said to him at one point, "I'm the person who protects this family against the man who is protecting this family." To do so, she had to truly stand alone, with no support; but she dug in and did it.

I think it's mostly due to her ESJ personality that she suffers grief; she's tough and outspoken and she dominates. But really, both her and Walt are kind of controlling, and the things he's done seem far worse than anything she's done. If someone is going to rip on Skyler, they should be even more critical of Walt, who seems even less pure -- he claims to be doing it all "for his family" but it's almost become an abstracted litany for him, like "doing something for God" without really considering what he is doing in terms of the actual details and impact on others. Skyler seems far more aware of the concrete ramifications of specific choices.

Note that Skyler actually also pushes her own ego out of the way. When it was in Walt's best interests to let Hank chase down the wrong tree and give up on the case as closed, Walt couldn't bear the thought of someone else taking credit for his work and intervened, putting himself (and thus his entire family) back in danger not just physically but even in losing all the money he's worked to provide. Meanwhile, Skyler was willing to publicly pretend to be an incompetent ditz in order to keep the IRS from investigating a business, thus protecting her family's interests.

The rape attempt, if I remember correctly so far back, was about Walter feeling himself loosing control of his life, feeling less valued and disrespected.

I think it was back in the middle of all of his cancer treatments.

Interestingly, it mirrors another literary rape -- that of Lena by Thomas Covenant back in Donaldson's "First Chronicles of Thomas Convenant" fantasy series in the 70's. Covenant was a blatant anti-hero who actually does find some measure of redemption ultimately, but he was basically an ostracized leper with a fixation on reality (because to get lost in "fantasy" was to spell his own death warrant, allowing his disease to accelerate). When he entered the Land, he felt out of control and like he was being deluded when his nerves came back to life, and he ended up violating another human being as part of his reaction. It was understandable, and yet it was also an act that damaged not just his victim but her entire family, and he had to carry the guilt and weight of that forever after.

I like Breaking Bad because it's honest about the ramifications of behaviors and choices but also shows how such behaviors unfold to begin with, with pretty stark, raw honesty.

Spoiler

I loved how Skyler arranged that intervention to get Walter on the chemo, because she thought it was what he SHOULD do and what the family needed, and then halfway through they all kind of rebel and say actually Walt should decide, it's his life... which of course pisses off Skyler, since the people she trusted as her family are supporting her husband in something where she could lose him. And Walter gives a pretty compelling reason NOT to do it. And then Skyler and Walt Jr give realistic responses that are antagonist to Walt (the boy thinks his dad is a coward, as he has cerebral palsey and never gave up), and eventually Walt decides that out of love, he will suffer sickness for them, because he just wants to be with them longer. Yet the story doesn't even end THERE... the fact is that Walt still has to deal with the bonecrushing reality of THAT choice, doing it out of "love" doesn't spare him or make it better -- he feels more out of control, his body rebels against him, and he experiences some level of bitterness and disappointment over it even while there's a chance he could enter remission... The show never does wuss out. Even when someone does the RIGHT thing or something out of love, there is often still a lot of misery that comes with that choice, things aren't suddeny all rosy... which is where most shows wuss out.

 

[Hadoblado]

+1 for stories that aren't fairy-tales.

 

[Architect]

I don't like him, a lot of the time... but I really do understand him. I actually understand Skyler too, though. And Jesse. They're all just very different.

Yes, some of the more real characters you'll see on TV.

Walt's a trip, with the stuff he could pull out of his ass to save their skins.

Much of it made up actually. That acid would not go through a tub like that (or melt every piece of metal like it did I believe), and the explosive compound he used was probably too explosive for what it was.

I thought people's responses to Skyler were kind of amazing in their negativity.

I found Skylers self riotousness spectacularly annoying.

Ultimately however (I haven't seen the final season since it's not on Netflix yet) Walt became my enemy. His propensity to screw up a good (for a drug chemist) situation never amazed me, all due to his ego. And what for? At least at the end of Season 4 (no spoilers please!) just so he could get enough money to truly retire. He could have done that under Gus, without having to kill everybody and become a monster.

 

[Jennywocky]

I just finished it last night (I downloaded the last eight episodes online since NetFlix hadn't put them out yet).

I won't say much specific here outside of spoiler tags, but I'll say I'm pretty amazed at how much was actually tied up in the last episode... closure / circle completion for many elements. There are things that even reach back to the first episode.

I'm still kind of resonating with the shock of it all, to have reached the end. Just really good taleweaving. But those last few episodes are horrifically painful to watch.

I felt like the ending was very strong. But while it did resolve all the physical plot points, I think the series is simply summed up in the title -- "Breaking Bad" -- how does a seemingly "good" man (or one perceived as good) fall? Walt spends much of the series making excuses for himself, spinning lies, and slowly freefalling into depravity while thinking he's not moving. To me, that was the primary journey, not necessarily the "crime drama" aspect we see all the time in the procedurals and that occupied the physical plot. We're tracking the moral and psychological process of the characters, as well as their relationships (after all, Walt is "doing this for family"), and those things bear their final fruit in the end.

I've seen the show referred to as a "modern western" and I guess that is accurate -- and the landscape doesn't hurt with that analogy.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think that was the 2nd episode of season 3. Season 4 just finished and season 5 is supposed to be the last one. Season 4 had some of the most amazing episodes of the series, in my opinion. Gus is one of my new all time favorite bad guys.

I think Gus was great. So underplayed, so internalized, so professional and quiet -- but there were moments where, when he revealed himself, he was totally terrifying and ruthless. He had these kind of unreadable, dead, shark eyes.

Spoiler

What's interesting to me is that, overall, once you know his backstory, he's actually been the wronged party in some ways, and he's terribly professional, and he does some "good" things even if they are also done in self-interest.... yet Gus becomes this evil enemy for Walter, who has to team up with someone else who is seen in a far worse light, in order to try and destroy him. In essence, Walter deals with the devil/Cartel (Salamanca) as part of him framing himself as the good guy. ("I won," he says at the end of that arc, simply. But he didn't consider what it cost him.)

Walt's an idiot, but I still find him fascinating. He's a classic example of someone who has "school smarts," but lacks "street smarts," yet he gets himself out in the streets nonetheless and is out of his league. I felt like I caught a glimpse of the Walt that is to come at the end of season 4, though. The creator has said that the premise of the show was to take a decent everyday guy and turn him into scarface, so that will be intersting to see in the last season.

The reality (and others kind of hit on it a bit) is that the hubris is his Achilles' heel. His pride drives many of his actions -- he's in thrall to it -- even when in many situations he can be very smart. (And Hank even calls him on this, near the end of the series; Hank's not really booksmart, but he's streetsmart, and when it comes to people, Walt's kind of stupid.) In Season 4, Walt had the whole thing pinned on someone else, but in a drunken stupor (not the first time it's happened on the show) his pride won't let someone else take the credit for his achivements... because he feels like he has wasted his life, despite being a good teacher. He's got a chip on his shoulder, a monkey on his back he can't shake. He was a potential high achiever, and all of his friends moved on and did great things and achieved fame and made lots of money, and he has nothing to show, and now with the cancer he's going to die. So many of the wrong turns in the show involve Walt's pride. His own pride destroys much of what he worked hard to achieve.

After all, a "smart guy" would have thrown out the last piece of incriminating evidence, ruthlessly, rather than keeping it; and of course it is enough to bring him down.

Spoiler

it's what makes the scene in Ozymandias (episode 60) play so well. His speech to Skyler over the phone plays well both as a conniving attempt to exonerate her, so that she and the kids won't go down with him, and also as an honest, believable declaration of bitterness and anger at no longer being in control. It's no wonder everyone else believes the act; in many ways, Walt does conform to the image he pretends to be, it's an easy fit for him. Even in the last episode, Walt exploits the image of himself as the monster in order to try to achieve his final goals; it's a wonderful bit of irony that he exploits his own dark legend, despite what reparation he attempts to make, to finally accomplish what he set out to do at the begining.

 

[Absurdity]

I think Gus was great. So underplayed, so internalized, so professional and quiet -- but there were moments where, when he revealed himself, he was totally terrifying and ruthless. He had these kind of unreadable, dead, shark eyes.

My favorite Gus moment:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGO505rvEuA

 

[Architect]

All the actors did well, really perfect for their roles, but Gus was the best in my opinion. Both the character and the actor.

 

[Jennywocky]

All the actors did well, really perfect for their roles, but Gus was the best in my opinion. Both the character and the actor.

I've seen him (Giancarlo Esposito) in a few other TV shows, but I have to say, I loved him the most hands down in this. Top-notch.

@Absurdity: Yes, total class and poise.

....

Since they're looking to do the "Better Call Saul" prequel series, I'm wondering if Mike will show up. That would be pretty cool. I really really like Mike.

 

[Jennywocky]

Sorry, still depressurizing from this show. That's been the worst -- all these ideas, thoughts, and feelings about what I saw on the show, and no one to talk to about them.

The blatant Heisenberg label is interesting, as Walt is a man in two states of being at once which he attempts to maintain. He is Walt, the family guy; and he is Heisenberg, the drug manufacturer.

Applying this very broadly, the idea that something's state changes based on the perception of the viewer very definitely applies to Walt, and I'm sure the cinematographers and directors were aware of it; there are many many shots in this show that are reflections off mirrors and shiny surfaces, even in the last minute of the series, where Walt's visage is distorted in some way or he sees intimations of his "other persona."

For Walt, he is unable to keep the two personas separate; people typically see one or the other, and when they see the other, they have trouble seeing the old one. One short video I ran across compares it to the illusion of the young lady vs the old woman; you can see either female in the image, but you can't really easily see them both at once, and once you see the other after not first recognizing it, your mind might become fixated on it.

This is especially true in terms of how almost all the other characters view Walt. When they know him as Walt the family guy, the skilled teacher, the courageous cancer patient, all the details they might run across of a darker Walt are ignored and he manages to get a free pass so many times when questions should have probably been raised. Probably Skyler is the character who most is able to see contrasting parts of Walt and accept them, and she still struggles with it, and she's also the first character to really recognize he is living a double life (because she's married to him) and so has the most time to try to understand him. Things go very poorly when some of the other characters finally realize what Walt's other persona is, and many of them have a hard time remembering the "good" Walt.

(Meanwhile, Walt -- while being more and more corrupt -- still does possess some moments of goodness and positive intent, even if they are more and more rare. But others can't accept that complexity of character. It's amazing how Walt is either a really great guy or a totally despicable monster to others, depending on what they know about him and how they choose to view him. This phenomena is something that Walt takes advantage of in the final parts of the series. He is capable of playing into either image to further his own ends.)

 

[Reluctantly]

I found Skylers self riotousness spectacularly annoying.

Ultimately however (I haven't seen the final season since it's not on Netflix yet) Walt became my enemy. His propensity to screw up a good (for a drug chemist) situation never amazed me, all due to his ego. And what for? At least at the end of Season 4 (no spoilers please!) just so he could get enough money to truly retire. He could have done that under Gus, without having to kill everybody and become a monster.

I got the feeling Skyler did all that because she knew how selfish Walt was and realized he didn't deserve anything from her, including her forgiveness or love, but maybe that's mostly how I perceived the situation in order to understand her character's motivations. I'm not sure.

This show isn't about the usual moral crap we get from tv and films, and that's a good thing because most series and movies are crap. This show isn't about some idealistic person that perfectly overcomes an obstacle and turns the situation into a happy ending. This show is more about characters, what motivates and drives people into the darker aspects of life.

We are not supposed to "cheer" him on.

The rape attempt, if I remember correctly so far back, was about Walter feeling himself loosing control of his life, feeling less valued and disrespected.

And that's the deal with a lot of the darker things of the show, they are motivated by certain feelings and thoughts of the characters. They reflect how far different people are willing to go, what makes people different.

That's one aspect of the show, anyway. The degree of desperation, anger, futility are themes not often covered quite this raw in series and films.

I don't really see this as a show of redemption or a cautionary one.

The problem with Walt is that he doesn't really care about redemption. He wants what he wants and tries to get it, hurting anyone in his way. I can appreciate his motivations, but his complete inability to have any redeeming features caused me not to even bother finishing the last season. Compare this to Tony Soprano who I enjoyed watching because his character would legitimately feel guilt at times (being unfaithful to his wife), want to help some people (he was concerned about his shrink when she got raped), and even tried to help different people before letting them go (he gave Christopher a lot of help before finally killing him and he cared about the horse).

But where was the humanity in Walt? He only cared about himself and used other people to get what he wanted. That's predictable, unrealistic, and boring...

edit: I suppose I could also compare him to Hannibal, who also seemed to have redeeming qualities when I understood psychological abuse made him who he was; but even despite that, he was good to people that were good to him. His character is respectable to me. But Walt had nothing like this...

 

[Minuend]

I've never seen it in terms of redemption or whether Walt was sympathetic enough or no. Or perhaps I just saw the human in him where many wouldn't? Or could understand how his logic would have to function to find this darker path the more reasonable one. The more I understand people, the less concerned I am by their actions, they don't become that dominant in my mind. Slightly different thought process, perhaps.

His character changes through the series and is quite realistic for the most part. Of course there are events and what not that are less realistic.

One of Walt's largest flaw is one we all carry; the inability to choose the right actions for ourselves because we are blind to them or choose them despite self destruction because of emotional influence.

But where was the humanity in Walt? He only cared about himself and used other people to get what he wanted.

I think perhaps because of Walt's more gentle nature before it all started, the more drastic his justifications for his actions had to be. If he allowed himself to doubt even for a minute, he could have a breakdown. Determination and desperation. And we also have this human bias where when we have invested a lot in something, we are less likely to let it go. If he did turn back on his actions, then he would have to own up to being a terrible human being. The ego is often too frail to scrutinize oneself to that degree. I guess he also wanted to prove himself and that if he did stop, then he would have to go back to old stomped on Walt. The person who didn't get respect from family or students. Who had to work two jobs to be able to support his family.

This was terribly written and I don't know if I made the points I was planning to. But oh well.

 

[Reluctantly]

I think perhaps because of Walt's more gentle nature before it all started, the more drastic his justifications for his actions had to be. If he allowed himself to doubt even for a minute, he could have a breakdown. Determination and desperation. And we also have this human bias where when we have invested a lot in something, we are less likely to let it go. If he did turn back on his actions, then he would have to own up to being a terrible human being. The ego is often too frail to scrutinize oneself to that degree. I guess he also wanted to prove himself and that if he did stop, then he would have to go back to old stomped on Walt. The person who didn't get respect from family or students. Who had to work two jobs to be able to support his family.

This was terribly written and I don't know if I made the points I was planning to. But oh well.

That makes sense, at least to me I guess. I could understand if that's why people liked watching the show.

One of Walt's largest flaw is one we all carry; the inability to choose the right actions for ourselves because we are blind to them or choose them despite self destruction because of emotional influence.

Yes, we all have it to an extent, but Walt never seemed to learn from his failures. It was always an excuse to try again or do something similar with better contingency planning. I got the feeling like, during the show, despite everything that he went through, he didn't grow in the sense that he didn't seem to know how to improve his relationships with people or even really understand his personal mistakes that he made. Somehow everything was always the fault of another's or he'd decide that he had the wrong plan or something.

But I can understand if some people don't mind that somewhat ... shallow? ... social and emotional development of Walt and appreciate him instead for the self-destructive consequences that creates for him.

 

[Jennywocky]

I've never seen it in terms of redemption or whether Walt was sympathetic enough or no. Or perhaps I just saw the human in him where many wouldn't? Or could understand how his logic would have to function to find this darker path the more reasonable one. The more I understand people, the less concerned I am by their actions, they don't become that dominant in my mind. Slightly different thought process, perhaps.

His character changes through the series and is quite realistic for the most part. Of course there are events and what not that are less realistic.

He felt pretty realistic to me as well, even if sometimes the plot could seem unbelievably in that he'd get away with what he was doing. I felt like Walt was very much about control, which ties into what you say below, here:

I think perhaps because of Walt's more gentle nature before it all started, the more drastic his justifications for his actions had to be. If he allowed himself to doubt even for a minute, he could have a breakdown. Determination and desperation.

Yes, I do feel like he felt he couldn't let up. There are some things that he does that are pretty horrible, and many of them also have an element of, "If I give up control / don't manage this situation, I could die and my ultimate goals not be fulfilled." he's seeking to reconcile something in himself, something unfulfilled, but in the process he's selling out everyone else.

Actually, kind of interesting to think about Jung's shadow, especially in connection to the life that Walt was living before and the life he turns to. He is taken advantage of and has little power (in his own mind) at the beginning, and then starts to release himself from the normal rules of society and relationships in the process of empowering himself. Those traits were always there in him, and actually it's a typical cathartic process that people undergo when they start to embrace the more dangerous aspects of themselves (versus the nice, rule-following, passive, socially palatable self)... it's just that most people don't take it to the extremes that Walt eventually takes it. In my experience, we all have to learn to embrace a bit the "fuck you" part of ourselves that Walt shows when he stands up against his boss in the pilot, so that we have some strength and backbone. But at least for the first four seasons, he never really integrates his shadow -- he just increasingly gives himself over to it and is then controlled by it.

And we also have this human bias where when we have invested a lot in something, we are less likely to let it go. If he did turn back on his actions, then he would have to own up to being a terrible human being.

I agree with that.

The ego is often too frail to scrutinize oneself to that degree. I guess he also wanted to prove himself and that if he did stop, then he would have to go back to old stomped on Walt. The person who didn't get respect from family or students. Who had to work two jobs to be able to support his family.

Yes, a man who was a contributor to Nobel prize-winning research and was once part of a startup company that now makes $2.1 billion a year, yet he sold his share for $5K before he knew it would go somewhere. There's a reason he unleashes so much bitterness on Gretchen in that scene in the restaurant... he harbors so much inside of him about what his potential should have been but ended up not being, to himself. In the pilot, when he gets cancer, it's actually a wake-up call to him to change his life; until then, he's been asleep in many ways... just existing... and it's no mistake that when Jesse asks him insistently why he is choosing to cook meth, he says, "I am... ALIVE."

It gives some insight for the underlying basis for his choices.

Yes, we all have it to an extent, but Walt never seemed to learn from his failures. It was always an excuse to try again or do something similar with better contingency planning. I got the feeling like, during the show, despite everything that he went through, he didn't grow in the sense that he didn't seem to know how to improve his relationships with people or even really understand his personal mistakes that he made. Somehow everything was always the fault of another's or he'd decide that he had the wrong plan or something.

But I can understand if some people don't mind that somewhat ... shallow? ... social and emotional development of Walt and appreciate him instead for the self-destructive consequences that creates for him.

I can understand that. Without spoilering anything specific, not watching season 5 is like slogging through four miles of shit / human depravity without having anything to show for it. To me, the last few episodes of series were worth any discomfort I might have experienced along the way, although obviously YMMV and I don't know how you specifically will respond to it.

 

[joshinali]

watched this like last month..great series

 

[Reluctantly]

I can understand that. Without spoilering anything specific, not watching season 5 is like slogging through four miles of shit / human depravity without having anything to show for it. To me, the last few episodes of series were worth any discomfort I might have experienced along the way, although obviously YMMV and I don't know how you specifically will respond to it.

Spoiler

Well, I finished it. I was surprised how it ended. The second half of season 5 was pretty good, you were right. And Walt finally grew up and admitted his motivations to himself and everyone else, instead of trying to rationalize them for his goals. He finally showed some self-awareness and interpersonal maturity. That was interesting. I thought it was a good ending for everyone, well, except maybe Jesse; but I got the feeling Jesse's character was incapable of accepting suffering. Maybe that's why his last scenes were of him losing it; that's kind of who he was on the show - the quintessential drug addict.

I was actually happy that Walt got what he wanted for a change.

 

[the hungry kid]

Contrary to the general opinion here I thought the first half of season 5 was actually better than the second one. This is because frankly speaking the second half wasn't that believable. I always liked breaking bad because it never made me question what I am watching. Well, sometimes I did but never had a tough time coming up with an instant explanation. I thought the genuineness and basics of the show were compromised to give viewers a "good" ending. I would have really enjoyed it more if Walt would have been the same and if he wouldn't have gotten what he wanted in the end.

But this is just my opinion. Btw I really liked how they had developed Jesse's character but I think it ended a little abruptly. I would have liked to see something more like a realization on his part about the connection he had with Walt. And I would have liked to go deeper in his mind coz he has always been an intriguing character for me.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

 

[Jennywocky]

Contrary to the general opinion here I thought the first half of season 5 was actually better than the second one. This is because frankly speaking the second half wasn't that believable. I always liked breaking bad because it never made me question what I am watching. Well, sometimes I did but never had a tough time coming up with an instant explanation. I thought the genuineness and basics of the show were compromised to give viewers a "good" ending. I would have really enjoyed it more if Walt would have been the same and if he wouldn't have gotten what he wanted in the end.

Well, we're getting into spoiler territory here but

Spoiler

I can agree that the ending gave Walt a bit more positive outcome than he probably deserved, although I felt it also all within parameters of reality and the degree of control Walt can exude when he focuses. I mean, really, his bluff with his billionaire friends was perfect since he wielded his reputation to make him seem more powerful than he was; his meeting with Skyler went about as well as it could have, Lydia was predictable and got what she deserved, and the only stretch/risk he really took was that the gun would take out everyone in the bandit's den; of course it also took him out. This last bit is the only bit where he didn't really have the level of control he likes to have and it was a gambit. But he didn't have much choice at that point.

The other thing is that Walt, despite an outcome where he did manage to control some factors to bringing closure to his main issues, didn't really get at all what he wanted. What he wanted was what he had at the cliffhanger at mid-season, when he thought he was out of the drug trade, everyone loved him, the money was there for his kids, and he was with family so even if he died he'd be surrounded by his loved ones and remembered as a hero and fighter.

Instead, he dies alone in a warehouse. His son hates him, his sister in law hates him, his wife is conflicted, no one realizes he has taken steps to provide for his family so he's seen as a loser, any respect he had from anyone is gone, all he has is the legend of Heisenberg who was basically viewed as the guy in the black hat. It's heartbreaking to watch him say goodbye to Holly and not even be able to say goodbye to Flynn, and there is this huge sense of "what if?" between him and Skyler. I don't know if she ever said it, but I know she was thinking about what if she had just let him die of cancer months before instead of pushing him to get treated; everything might have been better that way.

The only thing he has with him, aside from knowing his family would be provided for, was that he begins the series feeling cowed, powerless, asleep; and at the end, he feels like he at least has himself... but at what cost?

But this is just my opinion. Btw I really liked how they had developed Jesse's character but I think it ended a little abruptly. I would have liked to see something more like a realization on his part about the connection he had with Walt. And I would have liked to go deeper in his mind coz he has always been an intriguing character for me.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

Yeah, I liked Jesse a lot too, I hadn't seen someone quite like him before, and he probably got a bit "left hanging" in the end. How I viewed it is that after everything that Walt said and did to him, especially the revelation he gave to him after the desert shootout, well, the connection he had with Walt was that Walt always used and manipulated him under the guise of caring for him. Jesse said very little in the series finale, but the last thing he says to Walt kind of sums up their relationship and the new turn things have taken.

 

[TBerg]

I want to watch the last half season, but I am afraid it would trigger my tendencies of absurdism, nihilism, and Machiavellian thought patterns. It's not that I don't like the series. It's that I like it TOO much. It makes me want to be an ingenious anti-social operator, but I don't have the serious mental grounding to pull it off. I guess I will have to settle for Buddhist grounding and Jungian pragmatism, what I am working with these days.

But Breaking Bad is probably too real for most people to handle, too. It led me down the path of understanding more of the spectrum of human nature.

 

[The Gopher]

Oh yeah this thread, I always saw it pop up while watching the show but never entered because of spoilers. I liked it. Particularly Mike, Gus and Jesse.

 

[Helvete]

By far the best tv series iv seen, but lots of bits seemed slightly rushed. don't ask me which bits; i can't really remember now. but i may have to re watch it i think

 

[Jennywocky]

By far the best tv series iv seen, but lots of bits seemed slightly rushed. don't ask me which bits; i can't really remember now. but i may have to re watch it i think

Yeah, I'm not sure but it would be interesting to hear which parts. (I'm guessing you are thinking more about plot elements?)

I was actually thinking last night, WITHIN the episodes, I'm impressed by how they often use pauses and silence to dramatically underscore what is going on. The director and actors take their time, within particular scenes, and do not feel particularly hurried to fill the space with noise or action.

 

[Helvete]

Yeah, I'm not sure but it would be interesting to hear which parts. (I'm guessing you are thinking more about plot elements?)

I was actually thinking last night, WITHIN the episodes, I'm impressed by how they often use pauses and silence to dramatically underscore what is going on. The director and actors take their time, within particular scenes, and do not feel particularly hurried to fill the space with noise or action.

Yes, I meant in the plot. I mean don't get me wrong, it's beautifully directed and acted and the scenes themselves aren't rushed. I think it maybe the complexity of the plot and the amount of content in each episode. - I'm not trying to knock this either, but I felt there were some parts that could of been explored with more depth and a couple of loose ends were never resolved.

Yes I liked that too about the pauses/silences. It's just as expressive, if not more expressive than a full on argument/fight/action that a lot of cinema doesn't bother using: Apart from Eastenders, which use it so much it's laughable.
I suspect one of the mean reasons it's so effective is that it's actually bothered to go in depth with all the characters, so you have that much more understanding about them and makes it seem that bit more 'real'.

 

[Architect]

I finally finished the series. I saw the entire thing on NetFlix, starting early in the final season (when it was being aired a year or so ago), so I had to wait until they got that one to finish it out.

It was tough. I don't like senseless violent video, which usually is associated with drug stories. This one however was so good, in the story, cinematography and suspense that I had to see it through. I was careful not to read a single thing about the series online to avoid the remotest spoilers. I'll tell you that I was dragging though the final season. I just wanted it over with, I had to finish it out but wasn't looking forward to it, too much of an emotional roller coaster. Which they provided, I got my episodes wrong and thought the next to last episode was actuality the last one, only to be horrified to find there was one more to get through.

I slept terribly the night of watching the next to last one, with Jesse a slave and after killing his girlfriend, I just couldn't take it anymore*. I thought about waiting a few days to finish it out but decided it would be better to just get done with it. At any rate the final episode, while too neat for how a story should end, was perfect. I couldn't have asked for more, and I really needed that kind of closure with the series.

So ... despite all that I'm glad I watched it, and like the producer glad I'm done with it.

I was actually thinking last night, WITHIN the episodes, I'm impressed by how they often use pauses and silence to dramatically underscore what is going on. The director and actors take their time, within particular scenes, and do not feel particularly hurried to fill the space with noise or action.

Yes, this is a mistake most directors make. Composers know how powerful a judicious use of silence is, too often in movies it's continuous noise. Technically and artistically there's nothing I can complain about with the series, it probably is the best crime TV that has ever been done.

* The devastation of the plot isn't just the obvious one of drug violence, it's the violence done over, and over again. The plot is mostly about family, and it's about how an individuals character flaws can destroy those around them. Not just the obvious of Walt and his desire for power hurting his family and associates, but consider Skyler's smoking habit hurting her daughter, Marie and her klepto habit, Benneke and his bumbling attempts to save his company snaring Skyler in shady accounting and so forth. Oddly perhaps, the only ones 'innocent' of that are Jr, Gus, Hank and perhaps Mike and Saul.

 

[Base groove]

That bitch wife of his ruined it for me. She made me not want to watch it. So... ILLOGICAL. AHH. The way she emotionally abuses people... ESFJ (makes cross with fingers) Her abilities exceed my own

 

[Jennywocky]

That bitch wife of his ruined it for me. She made me not want to watch it. So... ILLOGICAL. AHH. The way she emotionally abuses people... ESFJ (makes cross with fingers) Her abilities exceed my own

Skyler spends Season #1 as the "villain" to Walt's seeming "reasonableness," but after his moral decline, in the end she's the one holding the shit end of the stick and raising two kids on her own in a shitty apartment. There's more than enough judgment to go around.

This is an interesting article about the "phone call twist" in Ozymandias and the "Bad Fan" syndrome altogether.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...breaking-bad-that-mindbending-phone-call.html I totally agree that the phone call is subversive and that's why it has power -- it operates as two things at once, kind of like the picture of the Old / Young Woman.

Even Hank and Marie, while being the "socially good" guys, have their own share of dirt and unpleasantness about them.

Probably the nicest guy was Gale, but you know what they say about nice guys... And yeah, Jesse probably has the most soul in the main cast; he does shitty things from time to time as well and is a screw-up in some ways, but his conscience eats him alive.

 

[Jennywocky]

It was tough. I don't like senseless violent video, which usually is associated with drug stories. This one however was so good, in the story, cinematography and suspense that I had to see it through. I was careful not to read a single thing about the series online to avoid the remotest spoilers. I'll tell you that I was dragging though the final season. I just wanted it over with, I had to finish it out but wasn't looking forward to it, too much of an emotional roller coaster. Which they provided, I got my episodes wrong and thought the next to last episode was actuality the last one, only to be horrified to find there was one more to get through.

I was pretty impressed with how a number of plotlines / character relationships in the series were tied up in that last episode. Especially with Gretchen and Elliot; they are very easy to push around the board if you understand how they think and what they value. I had no doubts they would behave exactly as Walt had anticipated.

I slept terribly the night of watching the next to last one, with Jesse a slave and after killing his girlfriend, I just couldn't take it anymore*.

That actually was one of the most devastating scenes in the series, I thought. I think some of the characters LOOKED worse on the surface, but Todd scares me the most. As Will Dormer says in Insomnia about the killer, "he crossed that line and he didn't even blink." Todd is so casual and seemingly polite and friendly... but he has no actual conscience, even if he "respects" Walter on some level.

Spoiler

Gilligan says about Jesse that realistically he will probably be pulled in by police after two weeks, with his fingerprints all over that gear in the warehouse and it being a murder scene; but in terms of story he imagines Jesse fleeing to Alaska and starting a new life and finding happiness.

One of the other most devastating was Walt letting Jane die. Originally they had him shoot her up, to remove her; then they had him intentionally turn her over to choke to death; but I think what they eventually shot was exactly correct -- the road to hell is walked by small steps, and here Walt was given an opportunity to save someone and simply refused to because he realized it was too convenient for him if she died. Watching Jesse over the next episode broke my heart over and over and clairified how terrible Walt's decision not to intervene was, in terms of its impact on Jane, Jesse, and her father... and all the passengers on those planes.

I thought about waiting a few days to finish it out but decided it would be better to just get done with it. At any rate the final episode, while too neat for how a story should end, was perfect. I couldn't have asked for more, and I really needed that kind of closure with the series.

That's a good way to say it. It was narratively perfect, but probably a little too neat for real life. Walt pulls off at least one thing that would have been touch and go at best (and actually was). Although, again, as far as predicting characters, Lydia behaved just as predicted and got her just desserts.

The pacing in the scene with Skyler, and then in the last 10 minutes or so of the finale (line delivery, blocking, movement, etc) was perfect.

* The devastation of the plot isn't just the obvious one of drug violence, it's the violence done over, and over again. The plot is mostly about family, and it's about how an individuals character flaws can destroy those around them.

Spoiler

Yes -- and it's all captured in that big line in Ozymandias after Hank dies, where Walt and Skyler get in the knife fight and Flynn dives in to protect his mom and Holly's crying, and Walt yells, "What's WRONG with all of you??? We're a FAMILY!" It's like getting hit by a truck, emotionally. The juxtaposition of his intent vs the real outcome of all of his choices is so immense that you can't miss how monstrous all of those small decisions over time were.

Not just the obvious of Walt and his desire for power hurting his family and associates, but consider Skyler's smoking habit hurting her daughter, Marie and her klepto habit, Benneke and his bumbling attempts to save his company snaring Skyler in shady accounting and so forth. Oddly perhaps, the only ones 'innocent' of that are Jr, Gus, Hank and perhaps Mike and Saul.

Gus is interesting. He has suffered losses of his own. He is a businessman at core and ruthless in pursuit of that, but I didn't see him as morally defunct as some of the other characters.

The one time where I think Hank looked bad is when he becomes emotionally abusive of Marie when she's trying her best to be there for him and care for him, but he's frustrated with his lack of recuperation and being pent up in the house and really treats her like dirt because she's the only target he has. He's very human and gets some of the small things wrong (things that actually rub me the wrong way with him sometimes), he can be a bully sometimes; but he gets the big stuff right, in terms of how he deals with the investigation of Jesse's beating and then in that final episode. His moral clarity was much sharper than Walt's.

Mike was actually one of my favorite characters. He was again, mostly about business and was willing to do whatever he needed to do; but it was juxtaposed against his relationship with his granddaughter and protecting the guys who had been loyal to him. Nothing was really personal with him.

Saul was a riot -- a total sleaze, yet very likeable at the same time. I'm thinking they have a decent chance with this spin-off.

And Flynn/Junior -- he was probably the most "innocent" of all the characters on the show and who I can't really remember doing anything really selfish or really screwed up. At worst, he just did a few of the typical things teens do in the process of finding themselves. but it just hurt him worse in the end, when his world comes crashing in.

 

[Architect]

Gus is interesting. He has suffered losses of his own. He is a businessman at core and ruthless in pursuit of that, but I didn't see him as morally defunct as some of the other characters.

The one time where I think Hank looked bad is when he becomes emotionally abusive of Marie when she's trying her best to be there for him and care for him, ...

Mike was actually one of my favorite characters. He was again, mostly about business and was willing to do whatever he needed to do; ...

Saul was a riot -- a total sleaze, yet very likeable at the same time. I'm thinking they have a decent chance with this spin-off.

And Flynn/Junior -- he was probably the most "innocent" of all the characters on the

Agree with all this. Strangely I felt Gus was one of the most honorable characters in the series. He had his version of morality, as the characters and we all do, but he was the only self consistent one.

Other innocents are Gale and Steve Gomez of course.

 

[Jennywocky]

Agree with all this. Strangely I felt Gus was one of the most honorable characters in the series. He had his version of morality, as the characters and we all do, but he was the only self consistent one.

Good way to say it. He had self-integrity.

Other innocents are Gale and Steve Gomez of course.

Forgot about Steve. Yeah, he was a good guy.

And then we had the Rosencrantz/Guilderstern team-up of Badger and Skinny Pete. Remember when they started arguing about how the Star Trek teleporters really don't teleport anyone anywhere, they just Xerox and disintegrate the original? (They weren't INTPs at all but I know we've had that scifi teleporter discussion here a few times.) They were hilarious and decent hearted, they didn't really belong in the business.

 

[Architect]

And then we had the Rosencrantz/Guilderstern team-up of Badger and Skinny Pete. Remember when they started arguing about how the Star Trek teleporters really don't teleport anyone anywhere, they just Xerox and disintegrate the original? (They weren't INTPs at all but I know we've had that scifi teleporter discussion here a few times.) They were hilarious and decent hearted, they didn't really belong in the business.

I liked them, a lot, but felt that the Star Trek exchange was one of the most forced parts of the whole show. They were too into it, addicts don't get excited about anything. Though I loved their part in his framing of Gretchen and Elliot.

Speaking of INTPs in the show, I won't claim Vince Gilligan is one, but there's an architected nature to it that made me wonder. Usually shows aren't that well thought out but one was perfect. Always kept you at a slow boil, sometimes above the line, then bring you down, for years until the final, inevitable conclusion. So many elements were set up before hand and perfectly tied, and as discussed instead of making it worse, the architected finishing is just what we needed. Think of all the flashforwards, to the ricin, M60 machine gun and the rest. The seeds for the final episode were littered around years earlier it seems.

 

[Jennywocky]

I liked them, a lot, but felt that the Star Trek exchange was one of the most forced parts of the whole show. They were too into it, addicts don't get excited about anything. Though I loved their part in his framing of Gretchen and Elliot.

That was pretty great. Walt had me fooled too; it was a beautiful example of how he had cultivated this image of himself as a horrible, maniacal criminal capable of anything -- and so all he had to do was play into with that image and people assumed it all to be true, whereas in reality he had no intention of doing any of what he promised.

Speaking of INTPs in the show, I won't claim Vince Gilligan is one, but there's an architected nature to it that made me wonder. Usually shows aren't that well thought out but one was perfect. Always kept you at a slow boil, sometimes above the line, then bring you down, for years until the final, inevitable conclusion. So many elements were set up before hand and perfectly tied, and as discussed instead of making it worse, the architected finishing is just what we needed. Think of all the flashforwards, to the ricin, M60 machine gun and the rest. The seeds for the final episode were littered around years earlier it seems.

I agree about that, although it's hard to know how much of the specifics were planned (I know pretty much the entire second season was planned out in detail before it was written, but he claims to have had a more organic approach to the remaining seasons because the second season was exhausting); still, I know when I'm writing, what I like to do is toss in a bunch of items that give me options later on in the story, and sometimes those generate plot points on their own. it's like you specifically "seed" your own story so that all those threads exist to capitalize on. Then on second pass, all of it gets tightened up. I think at the very least he's an open-ended iNtuitive, as that kind of writing style involves a lot of net-casting, line-setting, and then being open to how it all kind of works together, like cooking a meal on the fly.

But I think it's instructive to look back at his X-File days, his first real gig. Even then he was writing some of the fan favored episodes, and then usually managed to be meaningful + wry simultaneously (and occasionally sweet/sardonic), where everything hung together. It shows that good writing isn't genre-specific, since he moved away from the speculative stuff to do this show, which is more grounded in reality; and yet there's a kind of absurdity to it... how many high school teacher family guys become a drug kingpin?

 

[Base groove]

Skyler spends Season #1 as the "villain" to Walt's seeming "reasonableness," but after his moral decline, in the end she's the one holding the shit end of the stick and raising two kids on her own in a shitty apartment. There's more than enough judgment to go around.

You're forgetting that she put herself in this situation due to her own inability to respect Walter as an equal. When her controlling efforts met resistance, she blew up and left him, if I recall correctly. Typical ESFJ if you ask me.

In other words, if the S1 setup of Skyler's character wasn't meant to show you that she was her own undoing, then why bother making her out to be a villain?

Her entire persona is one of a manipulative and controlling egotistical self-centered evil bitch.

The only way Walter buys her back is by confessing that he has all this cash and letting her be the boss of it. Did you notice how easily she steps back into the role of being in-charge? It's appeasement! It's the only way Walter can keep her around, by letting her have whatever she wants. Fucking pathetic.

 

[Jennywocky]

You're forgetting that she put herself in this situation due to her own inability to respect Walter as an equal. When her controlling efforts met resistance, she blew up and left him, if I recall correctly. Typical ESFJ if you ask me.

In other words, if the S1 setup of Skyler's character wasn't meant to show you that she was her own undoing, then why bother making her out to be a villain?

She isn't made out to be a villain, not nearly to the degree that Walt is. Some of her concerns were very real and needed to be addressed, but you're just apparently having an anti-Fe hissy fit right now. It's kind of textbook, honestly. ["Typical ESFJ"... lol, dude!]

Do you understand anything about relationships? She eventually left him at the end of Season 2 (I think) because he lied to her, he was secretive, she feared he was having an affair (which led to HER having an affair which she wanted to break off and eventually did), and when she found out he was a drug dealer, she decided to divorce him ... although she never did because she still valued her marriage and loved him. But when he started screwing around with making and distributing hard drugs, he not only was doing something generally destructive and setting a poor example for the kids, but he threated their home, their finances, the security and safety of the children and themselves, etc. SFJs are "uber-moms," of COURSE she is going to get all momma bear and flip out and fight to keep the family and children intact, and if Walt can't play his role.

Eventually she stuck with Walt to "get over the hump" but it never worked. She figured if she helped him, it would minimize the danger to her family and decrease the time she was in the business. She was miserable to the point of killing herself, and Walt didn't give a shit because he was obsessed with making money. Finally she got him to see reason, but it took $80 million to do that, and she never wanted the money -- which she said, OVER and OVER and OVER again. She just wanted a home of safety and love for her kids to grow up in, and a real marriage.

But really? You are trying to say she's as big a villain as Walt? That's hilarious, I don't think anyone could support that kind of reading. She was human, she tried to dominate Walt through the first season and thus did contribute to his ennui (I think it was emasculating him in some ways), but not every man who "finds himself" becomes a criminal dealing drugs, murdering people, risking the lives of others, poisoning folks, etc. Walt's decisions were his own.

Her entire persona is one of a manipulative and controlling egotistical self-centered evil bitch.

That would get you a big fat "F" in a college writing class. Even in Season #1, I could understand where she was coming from, and that was her worst season. Maybe you don't understand how negotiations work in a relationship, but after Season #1, when she realized she wasn't in charge (which she needed to learn), I saw her negotiating over and over again.

The only way Walter buys her back is by confessing that he has all this cash and letting her be the boss of it. Did you notice how easily she steps back into the role of being in-charge? It's appeasement! It's the only way Walter can keep her around, by letting her have whatever she wants. Fucking pathetic.

You've got a monkey on your back and you need to get it off.

 

[Architect]

I think Skyler and Jesse had the most difficult situations, they were the somewhat unwitting pawns in Walts game. Her pivotal moment is when she was confessing to her therapist who then advised her to go the police. She didn't do it probably because of the children, and likely felt Walt wouldn't go any further. No wonder; her entire relationship with him has been with a mild science nerd, obviously she didn't yet see the extent of the villain. After that it was a slippery downhill slope she couldn't escape, it was her last free choice and thereafter Walt was in full control.

Which makes me think of Walt - was he really that evil? It highlights a principle I believe which is that few people think of themselves as evil. At worst people might say "they've done bad things" with the implication often that they had to do it. Walt came to that philosophy later in the show, but consider his actions. He killed people, but they were in the drug business after all where its a occupational hazard. He stayed away from harming the innocent ... mostly. Consider Brock (was that his name?), the kid that he poisoned with ricin. Even there he justifies it by saying that he knew the exact dosage, and the kid did make a full recovery.

I think Walts pivotal moment is when he crashes into the two drug dealers to save Jesse. Why did he do that? That was the turning point of him being a chemist to becoming a drug lord. He would have known the consequences. Did he do it purely to save Jesse? Surely he could have saved him in other ways. He was so methodical a thinker (just like a chemist) that he must have thought through it. The end point for that is when he confesses to Skyler how much he liked it because he was good at it. I wonder, was he referring just to the chemistry, or to the drug business? I think his flaw was that he wanted to be a successful businessman just as much as Elliot and Gretchen.

This is arguable but I think Walt and Skyler are in a moral middle ground. The only truly evil characters in the show are Todd, his uncle Jack, and their gang.

 

[Jennywocky]

Which raises an interesting question: Do you think the show copped out at all by "vindicating" Walt by putting him alongside "someone who was worse" -- i.e., Jack and white supremcist gang?

Some people could construe it as like, "Okay, Walt did some bad things... some REALLY bad things... but at least he wasn't as bad as Jack and Company." And so then when Walt faces off against Jack and Co, he's actually kind of playing a 'good guy' -- the villain who has put on a white hat momentarily -- which then means the audience can legitimately root for him, and allowing us to momentarily forget the things he did like manipulate and control, allow/orchestrate/contribute to/cause the murder of a number of people, harm children and/or put them in danger, get a lot of people hooked on drugs and likely to die / become destitute over their addiction (and likely damage any families/kids attached to the addicts), etc.

Is that really "moral middle ground"?

....

it reminds me of my favorite movie, "The Prestige," where Borden says at the end, "You've done terrible things, Robert. Really terrible things." Both men have lived in that moral middle ground for much of the movie, starting with a few basic points (1) Angier blaming Borden for his wife's death [which might or might not be true], and (2) both men being firmly committed to their craft. To be a good magician, sacrifices were necessary; and these sacrifices ended up resulting in shattered relationships for them both. Both men cause irreparable harm to the relationships and people they love. Deaths even occur. But only one of the men stoops to repeated murder and manipulation in order to achieve his goals, and only one does it for self-glory versus the desire to simply maintain integrity of craft.

 

[Architect]

Which raises an interesting question: Do you think the show copped out at all by "vindicating" Walt by putting him alongside "someone who was worse" -- i.e., Jack and white supremcist gang?

Boy, good question. By the way, I didn't realize they were some kind of Neo-nazi white supremacists, somehow missed that and read about it later.

I don't know, I think at least it serves the purpose (intended or not) of helping us understand Walt, whether we agree/vindicate him or not. That was one of the best/worst parts of the series. Going through middle age I see it from his perspective all too well and something that made the show so good and so hard to watch. Weeds did the same thing, and interestingly Gilligan didn't know about that show and how similar his idea was. He later said that if he had known about Weeds he never would have proposed Breaking Bad.

Some people could construe it as like, "Okay, Walt did some bad things... some REALLY bad things... but at least he wasn't as bad as Jack and Company." ... Is that really "moral middle ground"?

I don't know, but I think there is a spectrum in morality, even though we make black and white moral judgements ultimately. Even at that Jack had his own morality, he impressed me by letting Walt live and giving him a barrel. All he asked for was assurance they were square, and he took it on faith (a handshake is as good as a contract kind of ethos).

Side point, it just popped into my head about how Walt is a bad judge of character kept coming up in the show. He was good at science, bad at people. Gus didn't want to work with him because of his loyalty to an addict. Hank telling him that he's the smartest guy he knows, but he's too stupid to see that Jack made up his mind about killing him 15 minutes ago. Not sure what that means, if anything beyond character development.

 

[Jennywocky]

Boy, good question. By the way, I didn't realize they were some kind of Neo-nazi white supremacists, somehow missed that and read about it later.

Same here, actually. I just didn't let myself read anything until I had made my first pass watching, so as to avoid spoilers. (I can miss details like that in the first pass, and have.)

I don't know, I think at least it serves the purpose (intended or not) of helping us understand Walt, whether we agree/vindicate him or not. That was one of the best/worst parts of the series. Going through middle age I see it from his perspective all too well and something that made the show so good and so hard to watch. Weeds did the same thing, and interestingly Gilligan didn't know about that show and how similar his idea was. He later said that if he had known about Weeds he never would have proposed Breaking Bad.

I had read that as well, although I never did watch Weeds.

I could identify with Walt's struggle in terms of middle-life powerlessness and wondering what he had accomplished with his life, especially with all his talent and smarts and having to watch his former partner (and former SO) being rich, widely known, and widely respected. I thought the episode where he attends Elliot's birthday (?) in the first seasons was very informative... he felt embarrassed by the cheap but personal gift he offered Ellliot, who was receiving these incredible gifts from others... and his bitterness over losing all that is expressed later in the show. He was like the golden child, whose promise of brilliance had never flowered... and now here he was, with the clock ticking down, and nothing to show in his mind.

I don't know, but I think there is a spectrum in morality, even though we make black and white moral judgements ultimately. Even at that Jack had his own morality, he impressed me by letting Walt live and giving him a barrel. All he asked for was assurance they were square, and he took it on faith (a handshake is as good as a contract kind of ethos).

Side point, it just popped into my head about how Walt is a bad judge of character kept coming up in the show. He was good at science, bad at people. Gus didn't want to work with him because of his loyalty to an addict. Hank telling him that he's the smartest guy he knows, but he's too stupid to see that Jack made up his mind about killing him 15 minutes ago. Not sure what that means, if anything beyond character development.

I think Jack spared Walt at Todd's behest ("my nephew respects and likes you, and wouldn't forgive me if I hurt you or took everything from you"). Note that later after Todd thinks it's a bad idea (after the meeting with Lydia), the most support he gets from Todd is, "You shouldn't have come back, Mr. White." Note that Jesse and Todd are the two who keep calling him "Mr. White" as a mark of deference/respect. And he was their teacher (of meth).

But yes, the intellectual side of Walt didn't never quite meshed with the personal aspects of his life. Aside from the great examples you mention, he was unable to fathom why Skyler had such problems with his choices -- he kept making rational arguments to her as to why she should feel fine about things, totally missing what she was bothered by, to his detriment. This blindness also caused him to misread his son, in the last few episodes, to terrible outcomes.

It also delineates him from Gale, whose favorite poem was Whitman's "The Learn'd Astronomer":

When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

If you look at Gale's notebook, it was full of a lot of playful, inquisite, curious, well-rounded insights and explorations. I identified a lot with Gale and in fact when I was apartment looking this past month was interested in finding a place that reminded me of his apartment. His approach seemed very INP, versus Walt's INTJ approach. For Walt, everything was utilitarian to him, a tool he could use and leverage to gain power and achieve his ends; Gale did precise work as a matter of personal pride and could recognize and admire Walt's skill, but he had a human element to him that Walt seemed to miss entirely. Even when he's staring at Jesse at the end of Season 3, he's such a personal, kind soul that he doesn't even understand what's going on right away... he would never do what Walt has chosen to do, if the situation were reversed.

Not sure where I was going with that, but I guess again it might be exploring one aspect of dark ethics / inhumanity... Gale saw a mystery and human essence to the universe, he almost personalized it, while Walt seemed to easily dehumanize things or at least approach everything (even relationships) as tools of some sort or at least crunch them like numbers.

One of the most intense expressions of his weak feeling/personal connection is when he begs for Hank's life and is willing to give up everything he had worked for (all the money he was saving for his family) to keep Hank alive; apparently it was an under-utilized part of himself and came out unconsciously and irrationally after all the other choices he has made that put Hank in that predicament. [It's followed by him lashing out at Jesse with the cruel admission of his role in Jane's death, almost as revenge for Hank's death since if Jesse hadn't sided with Hank to get Walt, none of it would have happened.] If we cannot consciously and thoughtfully integrate our emotions and connections, then they will rise up to swallow us.

... not sure where I am going either, except I suppose I am still emotionally and mentally "unpacking" the show.

 

[Architect]

It also delineates him from Gale ... Gale did precise work as a matter of personal pride and could recognize and admire Walt's skill, but he had a human element to him that Walt seemed to miss entirely.

So was Gale the "good Walt", what he could have been? Seems more than likely, and explains why hated him so much and had to kill him. The evil half overcoming the good half.

 

[Jennywocky]

So was Gale the "good Walt", what he could have been? Seems more than likely, and explains why hated him so much and had to kill him. The evil half overcoming the good half.

I didn't even see it as hating him, I just saw it as Gale's "goodness" making him vulnerable because he couldn't be as ruthless as Walt. Walt did seem to depise 'weakness' but here Gale was just a piece of the puzzle, part of Gus' Goldberg machine to destroy Walt that Walt could take out and thus prevent his own demise.

Spoiler

IOW, if Gale were as hardened as Walt had been, maybe it would have been Walt lying dead with a bullet through his face. Gale would have predicted Walt's utilitarianism and gotten to him first.

 

[Base groove]

She isn't made out to be a villain, not nearly to the degree that Walt is. Some of her concerns were very real and needed to be addressed, but you're just apparently having an anti-Fe hissy fit right now. It's kind of textbook, honestly. ["Typical ESFJ"... lol, dude!]

Most of her concerns are exaggerated and blown out of proportion and she makes sincere attempts to drag others along with her whereupon her rage will lose its focus and automatically readjust to its nearest, easiest, most familiar target. It's because she can't have quiet time and makes things out to be constant turmoil.

Maybe you're just showing textbook hissy female allegiance, honestly.

Do you understand anything about relationships? She eventually left him at the end of Season 2 (I think) because he lied to her, he was secretive, she feared he was having an affair (which led to HER having an affair which she wanted to break off and eventually did), and when she found out he was a drug dealer, she decided to divorce him ... although she never did because she still valued her marriage and loved him. But when he started screwing around with making and distributing hard drugs, he not only was doing something generally destructive and setting a poor example for the kids, but he threated their home, their finances, the security and safety of the children and themselves, etc. SFJs are "uber-moms," of COURSE she is going to get all momma bear and flip out and fight to keep the family and children intact, and if Walt can't play his role.

This all breaks down to a matter of maliciousness. It's very difficult to be objective on that subject; it is touchy in real-time anyway, but I would like to make the case that Walter's behavior is less deplorable than Sylar's due to the fact that she is malicious and he acts out of necessity.

Every single one of Walter's moves unfolded as a "no-choice" situation. He couldn't keep any of his money for many episodes at a time as it was stolen or he was beaten up or some unexpected costs arose ... point being that Walter was constantly forced to remain active for the duration of time in the plot where Skylar is acting in this deplorable fashion.

The reason why Walter had such difficulty at home was because of her, constantly trying to intervene when he was pulling away. She didn't trust him, she constantly interrogated him, she always had the pretense of need but it was motivated by anger that she was being deprived of the control that she feeds off of. Walter's pretense might have been that he required more alone time due to his condition and (I am so fuzzy on actual details/concrete facts .... not working in my favour) ... anyway. ... she didn't even respect that. She made a facade of trying to be supportive but they were covert attempts at putting a clamp on the situation and gaining control.

Eventually she stuck with Walt to "get over the hump" but it never worked. She figured if she helped him, it would minimize the danger to her family and decrease the time she was in the business. She was miserable to the point of killing herself, and Walt didn't give a shit because he was obsessed with making money. Finally she got him to see reason, but it took $80 million to do that, and she never wanted the money -- which she said, OVER and OVER and OVER again. She just wanted a home of safety and love for her kids to grow up in, and a real marriage.

All along she failed to understand that workplace pressures prevented Walter from quitting as by this point in time he was too deep into the criminal underworld. Still, I argue, it was not by choice or deliberation, but out of necessity, that he found himself here. She didn't understand that he had a need for constant income at this point, or else he would be killed and his family would be extremely unsafe and have little access to any funds, especially from their graves. This motivates Walter to heroically assume his role as methamphetamine kingpin over Albuquerque, with little reluctance, as Walter's character has developed immensely due to his new lifestyle.

But really? You are trying to say she's as big a villain as Walt? That's hilarious, I don't think anyone could support that kind of reading. She was human, she tried to dominate Walt through the first season and thus did contribute to his ennui (I think it was emasculating him in some ways), but not every man who "finds himself" becomes a criminal dealing drugs, murdering people, risking the lives of others, poisoning folks, etc. Walt's decisions were his own.

Ok ... not every man decides to take charge of his life and resolve to find a way to pay for his cancer treatments and make sure his family receives a death benefit, after he gets cancer. Those who do, might have to expand their pool of available means.

That would get you a big fat "F" in a college writing class. burn! Even in Season #1, I could understand where she was coming from, and that was her worst season. Maybe you don't understand how negotiations work in a relationship, but after Season #1, when she realized she wasn't in charge (which she needed to learn), I saw her negotiating over and over again.

You saw her compromising, you mean. Giving in to reason. Her character certainly changes at this point into somebody more well-rounded and reasonable. I forgot to mention that part in my hateful slanderous initial response.

 

[Base groove]

Wanted to add the slight concession -- that he could have been more communicative at the outset however he still made the right decision in holding off from being truthful until he won some ground back.

 

[Jennywocky]

Most of her concerns are exaggerated and blown out of proportion and she makes sincere attempts to drag others along with her whereupon her rage will lose its focus and automatically readjust to its nearest, easiest, most familiar target. It's because she can't have quiet time and makes things out to be constant turmoil.

Maybe you're just showing textbook hissy female allegiance, honestly.

That's a rather senseless thing to say, considering my personality type. I have less in common with her and more in common with Walt, and I myself did not like Skyler in Season #1 and empathized with Walt much more deeply. However, at some point in Season #2 things started to cross over; I could discern when she stopped being bossy and when she honestly was trying to do the right thing as selflessly as she could.

But... have you raised kids? I have. That and dealing with a lot of SFJs in my life gives me a better handle on why they act the way they do.

This all breaks down to a matter of maliciousness. It's very difficult to be objective on that subject; it is touchy in real-time anyway, but I would like to make the case that Walter's behavior is less deplorable than Sylar's due to the fact that she is malicious and he acts out of necessity.

Srsly? I see a lot of her choices from Season #2 as being out of "necessity," where Walt was just in a mess that he put himself into... and dragged the rest of the family in with him. She kept trying to keep the damage for her children as low as possible, and Walt just kept dragging them in deeper and deeper. She had no good answer; in the end, helping Walt minimized the damage as much as possible, and it was not a preferable answer.

The reason why Walter had such difficulty at home was because of her, constantly trying to intervene when he was pulling away. She didn't trust him, she constantly interrogated him, she always had the pretense of need but it was motivated by anger that she was being deprived of the control that she feeds off of. Walter's pretense might have been that he required more alone time due to his condition and (I am so fuzzy on actual details/concrete facts .... not working in my favour) ... anyway. ... she didn't even respect that. She made a facade of trying to be supportive but they were covert attempts at putting a clamp on the situation and gaining control.

So Walt's attempts to control everything are fine, but Skyler's are not. I see.

Honestly, they were both controllers, that was the basis of their relationship. They both liked bringing things to closure.

Walt is not a victim here, at least not in the two years the series occurs over.

All along she failed to understand that workplace pressures prevented Walter from quitting as by this point in time he was too deep into the criminal underworld. Still, I argue, it was not by choice or deliberation, but out of necessity, that he found himself here.

So he makes a decision to do something highly illegal, on his own, without telling her until he's too far in to extract himself, and so none of that is his fault?

She didn't understand that he had a need for constant income at this point, or else he would be killed and his family would be extremely unsafe and have little access to any funds, especially from their graves. This motivates Walter to heroically assume his role as methamphetamine kingpin over Albuquerque, with little reluctance, as Walter's character has developed immensely due to his new lifestyle.

I have a hard time determining whether your argument is serious or satire.

Ok ... not every man decides to take charge of his life and resolve to find a way to pay for his cancer treatments and make sure his family receives a death benefit, after he gets cancer. Those who do, might have to expand their pool of available means.

I understand why Walt did what he did. In fact, I understood his real motivations long before he ever did, apparently, in the last episode.

Then again, they didn't want the money, they wanted him; and he left a lot of psychological damage that will never be healed in its wake. Money is money and people typically survive anyway; meanwhile, look at all the people who died and how badly the family was damaged by Walt's choice of how to provide that money. if you cared about his family at all, it honestly would have been better for him to just not get treatment and live autonomously without dealing with the effects of the chemo, die after a few months, and leave everyone psychologically intact.

The end sum of this game the way Walt played it was that he died with his son hating him, his trust shattered; Skyler lost her marriage and is still under a cloud of suspicion from the government; the whole family is living in a shitty apartment; some members of the family are dead; Skyler and marie's relationship is mostly estranged; the whole family kind of lives under "walt's cloud" of being a notorious criminal. Yes, they will receive money from the Beautiful People, not knowing it was their father's; but honestly they would all have been happier long term if Walt had just died after heroically refusing treatment and living his last short months to the fullest possible.

You saw her compromising, you mean. Giving in to reason. Her character certainly changes at this point into somebody more well-rounded and reasonable. I forgot to mention that part in my hateful slanderous initial response.

See, this is where I perceive your blind spot to be. You hate Fe domination so much that you can't even understand where they're coming from. Skyler was operating under her own form of reason and it's obvious if you understand that system at all... but not if you're going to cling to your own personal system of reasoning.

So I don't see as "giving into reason," she always had her own consistent rationale for doing what she did; she basically was stuck in a situation that she didn't ask for, where she had to minimize the damage for her family, and she did care about Walt and her marriage, so she was still trying to preserve those as much as possible... but the kids were her ultimate priority if Walt was going to go off and create this cloud of danger over everyone's head.

This is all MBTI 101.

 

[Base groove]

That's a rather senseless thing to say, considering my personality type.

Mirroring you of course, as I believe I am INTJ for example....

But... have you raised kids? I have. That and dealing with a lot of SFJs in my life gives me a better handle on why they act the way they do.

Get bent, you don't know for sure that you have a better handle on something like that. I think you have a worse handle on it. I am uncompromising with these types and they stay away from me completely. <<As far as I'm concerned, I'm a winner. Oh that and I have been in a relationship with a SFJ for almost five years

Srsly? I see a lot of her choices from Season #2 as being out of "necessity,"

Like leaving, cheating, and generally panicking that she doesn't have total control over something? These weren't essential courses of action in the same way that Walter's were.

So Walt's attempts to control everything are fine, but Skyler's are not. I see.

Yes, again, this is due to intent. Walter's intent is fundamentally different from Skyler's.

So he makes a decision to do something highly illegal, on his own, without telling her until he's too far in to extract himself, and so none of that is his fault?

Fault .... was a term I never used? Sure he is to blame for the direct effects however you're making Skylar out to be the one who had all the natural responses, say the ones a computer would make...and I'm saying no. Her responses were unproductive, inhibitory, and domineering. If she could have laid back in S1, Walter would have been able to get himself out of the drug game. She made his life hell, not the other way around, at first. So the fault actually lies with her.

I have a hard time determining whether your argument is serious or satire.

I understand why Walt did what he did. **This in particular I wanted to draw your attention to, as it is tangential to the original quote to which I had replied. You're ignoring that to make my argument something else.

Then again, they didn't want the money, they wanted him; and he left a lot of psychological damage that will never be healed in its wake. Money is money and people typically survive anyway; meanwhile, look at all the people who died and how badly the family was damaged by Walt's choice of how to provide that money. if you cared about his family at all, it honestly would have been better for him to just not get treatment and live autonomously without dealing with the effects of the chemo, die after a few months, and leave everyone psychologically intact.

Post hoc ergo proper hoc fallacy. None of this changes the fact that Skylar was initially 'in the wrong' and this is what caused Walter to lie to her. You can't confuse basic logic with tv drama. Of course it unfolded in such a way that Walter eventually becomes no good scum, however, it didn't start that way. It started with a terrible misfortune (i.e. the marriage, not the cancer). Walter's decisions were always logical. Vilifying him to be selfish and controlling is a way to totally overlook what actually put him in that situation in the first place.

The end sum of this game the way Walt played it was that he died with his son hating him, his trust shattered; Skyler lost her marriage and is still under a cloud of suspicion from the government; the whole family is living in a shitty apartment; some members of the family are dead; Skyler and marie's relationship is mostly estranged; the whole family kind of lives under "walt's cloud" of being a notorious criminal. Yes, they will receive money from the Beautiful People, not knowing it was their father's; but honestly they would all have been happier long term if Walt had just died after heroically refusing treatment and living his last short months to the fullest possible.

Hindsight vs. foresight vs. insight. You're using pure hindsight.

See, this is where I perceive your blind spot to be. You hate Fe domination so much that you can't even understand where they're coming from. Skyler was operating under her own form of reason and it's obvious if you understand that system at all... but not if you're going to cling to your own personal system of reasoning. "You don't agree because you don't understand" lol

So I don't see as "giving into reason," she always had her own consistent rationale for doing what she did; she basically was stuck in a situation that she didn't ask for, where she had to minimize the damage for her family, and she did care about Walt and her marriage, so she was still trying to preserve those as much as possible... but the kids were her ultimate priority if Walt was going to go off and create this cloud of danger over everyone's head.

Everybody was stuck in a situation they didn't ask for and Walter is the scapegoat because it all started with his cancer. Arguably he had better intentions than she did. She was still hounding him for money as if he could do anything about it after his diagnosis, before he got into crime. This was a horrible thing for her to do. It was very clear that the car wash was suffering and that there was very little Walt had control over in his own life, especially pertaining to his health and his earning power, and still she didn't lay off. Always with the talons. It was completely illogical and unreasonable and it was a miserable way to be. She had more power to change things at that point than he did but instead she chose to put it all on him anyway.

This is all MBTI 101.

MBTI 101? u kidding? Skylar (to me) represents the evil side of Fe. The side that is deplorable. I'm not saying Skylar is bad because she is an ESFJ I'm saying she is the archetypal ESFJ that is controlling of others and extremely dramatic, always making waves in otherwise calm waters. The type of ESFJ who (as I said) can't have any down-time between episodes (metaphors and double entendres abound).

I already provided the concession that she does improve in time, becoming more well rounded, colder, and more logical. If you want to talk MBTI 101....

 

[Jennywocky]

I'd honestly be shocked if you were an INTJ. Any certainty in your views seems to be an overreaction against types of people with whom you've likely had bad experiences with in your past, who have sought to control your behavior somehow, while your argument style continues to be far more ETP in nature. You even admit this baggage ("I am uncompromising with these types" -- yeah, you're reading her as 'representative' of a type of person you have had bad experiences with). Of course that will impact your reading of the dramatic text.

I continue to view your viewpoint as a less-comprehensive view of all the characters and their relationships, because of what you bring into your reading, rather than being open to all the characters; but I also have ceased to see this as a productive conversation and satisfying neither of us, so I don't see the point in continuing. If you want to hold that viewpoint, go right ahead.

 

[Base groove]

Utter hogwash.

First you think I self identify as INTP so you call it a Fe hissy fit.

Then you realize I self identify as INTJ so you call it Se belligerence.

I have multiple categories of ESFJ, one of which she is a prototype. You call it inferior Ni.

All I said was Skylar's illogical nature ruined the show for me because I was more invested in Walter's escapades and found her presence to be a total nuisance. Most times I wanted her dead so he could carry on unencumbered. I knew she would find out and then I knew she would take over and I knew it would ruin everything. Now look, life in ruins. Oh, post hoc ergo propter hoc you might say... it was all Walter's fault.

 

[TimeAsylums]

All I said was Skylar's illogical nature ruined the show for me because I was more invested in Walter's escapades and found her presence to be a total nuisance.

I have no idea what this argument is about, and I don't care, but

I fucking hated skyler's guts, and not even in a "wow she was such a good bitch," but in the fact that I hated her character and her presence, and her thought patterns, fucking bitch, I could have literally viewed the entire show without her in it. Most despised character of show, and least liked ( I haven't bothered to type the Breaking Bad peeps...yet, but just from quick googling it seems ppl settled on xxSJ fer sure, ...that might explain it lol )

IMO, of course

 

[Base groove]

I have no idea what this argument is about, and I don't care, but

I fucking hated skyler's guts, and not even in a "wow she was such a good bitch," but in the fact that I hated her character and her presence, and her thought patterns, fucking bitch, I could have literally viewed the entire show without her in it. Most despised character of show, and least liked

IMO of course

Yeah that's awfully similar to what I said, apparently Cavalli as well, and each time it was shot down, with personal remarks no less. Just walk away now man. walk the 'don't care' walk.

Also @ JW I realize now you said ETP not ESTP so you weren't overtly calling it Se-belligerence so my reply at least matches your accusations in levels of hogwashery.